Is it ever bad to run an IC VCC trace next to a ground plane with 1mm clearance?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











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Since my last board flopped, I looked at it again and noticed a ground loop (because the DB9 casing completed the loop).



Now I adjusted my board so that there is no loop of any kind. Instead, I'm running a VCC track next to a GND plane with 1mm clearance right underneath the 40-pin DIP AT89S52 microcontroller (on opposite side of course since I'm doing single-sided PCB). I'm also planning to add a couple of 0.047uF decoupling capacitors.



For clarity, I added a picture of part of my circuit. I highlighted the ground wire in red and will convert it to a plane after so I don't waste etchant.



The circled green items are the 0.047uF ceramic decoupling capacitors.



They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close bad as well? and would modifying my clearance between the two planes affect microcontroller operation? and no I won't use 0 clearance or I'll blow the batteries up.



plane










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  • 1




    If you have made progress on your previous question you should follow up there and resolve that before posting a new one. It sounds however as you are misusing the term ground loop, rather what you may have had there was a very long high impedance ground path.
    – Chris Stratton
    yesterday







  • 1




    "Ground loops are bad" is something I think usually applies to long cables, like meters in length, in which case they pick up inductive noise. It is rarely a problem on PCBs.
    – jpa
    yesterday






  • 1




    I'm concerned you say you're only planning to add decoupling,, suggesting it wasn't there before. Every digital IC must have decoupling, and that's really non-optional. Micros often have specific requirements for how to do it - see the datasheet. It's usually good practise for analogue ICs too, although generally less critical there.
    – Graham
    yesterday















up vote
6
down vote

favorite












Since my last board flopped, I looked at it again and noticed a ground loop (because the DB9 casing completed the loop).



Now I adjusted my board so that there is no loop of any kind. Instead, I'm running a VCC track next to a GND plane with 1mm clearance right underneath the 40-pin DIP AT89S52 microcontroller (on opposite side of course since I'm doing single-sided PCB). I'm also planning to add a couple of 0.047uF decoupling capacitors.



For clarity, I added a picture of part of my circuit. I highlighted the ground wire in red and will convert it to a plane after so I don't waste etchant.



The circled green items are the 0.047uF ceramic decoupling capacitors.



They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close bad as well? and would modifying my clearance between the two planes affect microcontroller operation? and no I won't use 0 clearance or I'll blow the batteries up.



plane










share|improve this question

















  • 1




    If you have made progress on your previous question you should follow up there and resolve that before posting a new one. It sounds however as you are misusing the term ground loop, rather what you may have had there was a very long high impedance ground path.
    – Chris Stratton
    yesterday







  • 1




    "Ground loops are bad" is something I think usually applies to long cables, like meters in length, in which case they pick up inductive noise. It is rarely a problem on PCBs.
    – jpa
    yesterday






  • 1




    I'm concerned you say you're only planning to add decoupling,, suggesting it wasn't there before. Every digital IC must have decoupling, and that's really non-optional. Micros often have specific requirements for how to do it - see the datasheet. It's usually good practise for analogue ICs too, although generally less critical there.
    – Graham
    yesterday













up vote
6
down vote

favorite









up vote
6
down vote

favorite











Since my last board flopped, I looked at it again and noticed a ground loop (because the DB9 casing completed the loop).



Now I adjusted my board so that there is no loop of any kind. Instead, I'm running a VCC track next to a GND plane with 1mm clearance right underneath the 40-pin DIP AT89S52 microcontroller (on opposite side of course since I'm doing single-sided PCB). I'm also planning to add a couple of 0.047uF decoupling capacitors.



For clarity, I added a picture of part of my circuit. I highlighted the ground wire in red and will convert it to a plane after so I don't waste etchant.



The circled green items are the 0.047uF ceramic decoupling capacitors.



They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close bad as well? and would modifying my clearance between the two planes affect microcontroller operation? and no I won't use 0 clearance or I'll blow the batteries up.



plane










share|improve this question













Since my last board flopped, I looked at it again and noticed a ground loop (because the DB9 casing completed the loop).



Now I adjusted my board so that there is no loop of any kind. Instead, I'm running a VCC track next to a GND plane with 1mm clearance right underneath the 40-pin DIP AT89S52 microcontroller (on opposite side of course since I'm doing single-sided PCB). I'm also planning to add a couple of 0.047uF decoupling capacitors.



For clarity, I added a picture of part of my circuit. I highlighted the ground wire in red and will convert it to a plane after so I don't waste etchant.



The circled green items are the 0.047uF ceramic decoupling capacitors.



They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close bad as well? and would modifying my clearance between the two planes affect microcontroller operation? and no I won't use 0 clearance or I'll blow the batteries up.



plane







pcb ground design layout groundloops






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share|improve this question




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asked yesterday









Mike

30213




30213







  • 1




    If you have made progress on your previous question you should follow up there and resolve that before posting a new one. It sounds however as you are misusing the term ground loop, rather what you may have had there was a very long high impedance ground path.
    – Chris Stratton
    yesterday







  • 1




    "Ground loops are bad" is something I think usually applies to long cables, like meters in length, in which case they pick up inductive noise. It is rarely a problem on PCBs.
    – jpa
    yesterday






  • 1




    I'm concerned you say you're only planning to add decoupling,, suggesting it wasn't there before. Every digital IC must have decoupling, and that's really non-optional. Micros often have specific requirements for how to do it - see the datasheet. It's usually good practise for analogue ICs too, although generally less critical there.
    – Graham
    yesterday













  • 1




    If you have made progress on your previous question you should follow up there and resolve that before posting a new one. It sounds however as you are misusing the term ground loop, rather what you may have had there was a very long high impedance ground path.
    – Chris Stratton
    yesterday







  • 1




    "Ground loops are bad" is something I think usually applies to long cables, like meters in length, in which case they pick up inductive noise. It is rarely a problem on PCBs.
    – jpa
    yesterday






  • 1




    I'm concerned you say you're only planning to add decoupling,, suggesting it wasn't there before. Every digital IC must have decoupling, and that's really non-optional. Micros often have specific requirements for how to do it - see the datasheet. It's usually good practise for analogue ICs too, although generally less critical there.
    – Graham
    yesterday








1




1




If you have made progress on your previous question you should follow up there and resolve that before posting a new one. It sounds however as you are misusing the term ground loop, rather what you may have had there was a very long high impedance ground path.
– Chris Stratton
yesterday





If you have made progress on your previous question you should follow up there and resolve that before posting a new one. It sounds however as you are misusing the term ground loop, rather what you may have had there was a very long high impedance ground path.
– Chris Stratton
yesterday





1




1




"Ground loops are bad" is something I think usually applies to long cables, like meters in length, in which case they pick up inductive noise. It is rarely a problem on PCBs.
– jpa
yesterday




"Ground loops are bad" is something I think usually applies to long cables, like meters in length, in which case they pick up inductive noise. It is rarely a problem on PCBs.
– jpa
yesterday




1




1




I'm concerned you say you're only planning to add decoupling,, suggesting it wasn't there before. Every digital IC must have decoupling, and that's really non-optional. Micros often have specific requirements for how to do it - see the datasheet. It's usually good practise for analogue ICs too, although generally less critical there.
– Graham
yesterday





I'm concerned you say you're only planning to add decoupling,, suggesting it wasn't there before. Every digital IC must have decoupling, and that's really non-optional. Micros often have specific requirements for how to do it - see the datasheet. It's usually good practise for analogue ICs too, although generally less critical there.
– Graham
yesterday











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
5
down vote



accepted











They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close
bad as well?




Nope. Consider: the coupling between the two is largely capacitive, and by reducing clearance you increase the capacitance. However, you already are adding capacitors between them, so if anything it's to the good. This principle does not hold for two signal conductors, as the coupling can cause cross-talk, especially if one line is digital with a lot of sharp transitions and the other is low-level analog, but it's fine for VCC/ground. There are other situations where coupling can get you in trouble, but there is no indication they apply here.



The thing to look out for is leakage between the two. In the pcb world, the usual rule of thumb is 1 mil (1/1000 inch) of separation per volt of difference. So, as long as VCC is less than about 40 volts, 1 mm separation is just fine.






share|improve this answer



























    up vote
    11
    down vote













    In general, it's good to run Vcc as close as possible to the ground copper that will carry its return current. This reduces the size of the current return loop, which minimizes radiated emissions and improves radiated susceptibility.



    If the potential on VCC might be over 50 V, then you need to start thinking about creepage and clearance distances. But I doubt this is the case here, since you're talking about powering a microcontroller.






    share|improve this answer





























      up vote
      6
      down vote













      To achieve even lower inductance, widen either or both of VDD and GND traces (neither traces are a large region of copper metal, or foil as used in fabricating the PCB, so neither is a
      "plane"). By using that 1mm minimum separation all along that region, you will better exploit those two capacitors in supplying transient currents to the microcontroller.





      schematic





      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






      share|improve this answer






















      • Indeed the OP does not seem to understand what a "ground plane" is: an entire PCB layer of copper dedicated only to Gnd. The purpose is to minimize the inductance of signal traces. A HF current loop minimizes its magnetic energy by letting the return current through the ground plane automagically follow a parallel path under the signal trace. That is why a ground plane must be uninterrupted except by small vias, so as to not break the path of the return current. This does wonders for EMC, at very little PCB layout effort.
        – StessenJ
        18 hours ago










      Your Answer




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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      5
      down vote



      accepted











      They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close
      bad as well?




      Nope. Consider: the coupling between the two is largely capacitive, and by reducing clearance you increase the capacitance. However, you already are adding capacitors between them, so if anything it's to the good. This principle does not hold for two signal conductors, as the coupling can cause cross-talk, especially if one line is digital with a lot of sharp transitions and the other is low-level analog, but it's fine for VCC/ground. There are other situations where coupling can get you in trouble, but there is no indication they apply here.



      The thing to look out for is leakage between the two. In the pcb world, the usual rule of thumb is 1 mil (1/1000 inch) of separation per volt of difference. So, as long as VCC is less than about 40 volts, 1 mm separation is just fine.






      share|improve this answer
























        up vote
        5
        down vote



        accepted











        They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close
        bad as well?




        Nope. Consider: the coupling between the two is largely capacitive, and by reducing clearance you increase the capacitance. However, you already are adding capacitors between them, so if anything it's to the good. This principle does not hold for two signal conductors, as the coupling can cause cross-talk, especially if one line is digital with a lot of sharp transitions and the other is low-level analog, but it's fine for VCC/ground. There are other situations where coupling can get you in trouble, but there is no indication they apply here.



        The thing to look out for is leakage between the two. In the pcb world, the usual rule of thumb is 1 mil (1/1000 inch) of separation per volt of difference. So, as long as VCC is less than about 40 volts, 1 mm separation is just fine.






        share|improve this answer






















          up vote
          5
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          5
          down vote



          accepted







          They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close
          bad as well?




          Nope. Consider: the coupling between the two is largely capacitive, and by reducing clearance you increase the capacitance. However, you already are adding capacitors between them, so if anything it's to the good. This principle does not hold for two signal conductors, as the coupling can cause cross-talk, especially if one line is digital with a lot of sharp transitions and the other is low-level analog, but it's fine for VCC/ground. There are other situations where coupling can get you in trouble, but there is no indication they apply here.



          The thing to look out for is leakage between the two. In the pcb world, the usual rule of thumb is 1 mil (1/1000 inch) of separation per volt of difference. So, as long as VCC is less than about 40 volts, 1 mm separation is just fine.






          share|improve this answer













          They say ground loops are bad, but is vcc next to ground this close
          bad as well?




          Nope. Consider: the coupling between the two is largely capacitive, and by reducing clearance you increase the capacitance. However, you already are adding capacitors between them, so if anything it's to the good. This principle does not hold for two signal conductors, as the coupling can cause cross-talk, especially if one line is digital with a lot of sharp transitions and the other is low-level analog, but it's fine for VCC/ground. There are other situations where coupling can get you in trouble, but there is no indication they apply here.



          The thing to look out for is leakage between the two. In the pcb world, the usual rule of thumb is 1 mil (1/1000 inch) of separation per volt of difference. So, as long as VCC is less than about 40 volts, 1 mm separation is just fine.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered yesterday









          WhatRoughBeast

          47.8k22772




          47.8k22772






















              up vote
              11
              down vote













              In general, it's good to run Vcc as close as possible to the ground copper that will carry its return current. This reduces the size of the current return loop, which minimizes radiated emissions and improves radiated susceptibility.



              If the potential on VCC might be over 50 V, then you need to start thinking about creepage and clearance distances. But I doubt this is the case here, since you're talking about powering a microcontroller.






              share|improve this answer


























                up vote
                11
                down vote













                In general, it's good to run Vcc as close as possible to the ground copper that will carry its return current. This reduces the size of the current return loop, which minimizes radiated emissions and improves radiated susceptibility.



                If the potential on VCC might be over 50 V, then you need to start thinking about creepage and clearance distances. But I doubt this is the case here, since you're talking about powering a microcontroller.






                share|improve this answer
























                  up vote
                  11
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  11
                  down vote









                  In general, it's good to run Vcc as close as possible to the ground copper that will carry its return current. This reduces the size of the current return loop, which minimizes radiated emissions and improves radiated susceptibility.



                  If the potential on VCC might be over 50 V, then you need to start thinking about creepage and clearance distances. But I doubt this is the case here, since you're talking about powering a microcontroller.






                  share|improve this answer














                  In general, it's good to run Vcc as close as possible to the ground copper that will carry its return current. This reduces the size of the current return loop, which minimizes radiated emissions and improves radiated susceptibility.



                  If the potential on VCC might be over 50 V, then you need to start thinking about creepage and clearance distances. But I doubt this is the case here, since you're talking about powering a microcontroller.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited yesterday









                  rollstuhlfahrer

                  1106




                  1106










                  answered yesterday









                  The Photon

                  80.4k394190




                  80.4k394190




















                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote













                      To achieve even lower inductance, widen either or both of VDD and GND traces (neither traces are a large region of copper metal, or foil as used in fabricating the PCB, so neither is a
                      "plane"). By using that 1mm minimum separation all along that region, you will better exploit those two capacitors in supplying transient currents to the microcontroller.





                      schematic





                      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






                      share|improve this answer






















                      • Indeed the OP does not seem to understand what a "ground plane" is: an entire PCB layer of copper dedicated only to Gnd. The purpose is to minimize the inductance of signal traces. A HF current loop minimizes its magnetic energy by letting the return current through the ground plane automagically follow a parallel path under the signal trace. That is why a ground plane must be uninterrupted except by small vias, so as to not break the path of the return current. This does wonders for EMC, at very little PCB layout effort.
                        – StessenJ
                        18 hours ago














                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote













                      To achieve even lower inductance, widen either or both of VDD and GND traces (neither traces are a large region of copper metal, or foil as used in fabricating the PCB, so neither is a
                      "plane"). By using that 1mm minimum separation all along that region, you will better exploit those two capacitors in supplying transient currents to the microcontroller.





                      schematic





                      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






                      share|improve this answer






















                      • Indeed the OP does not seem to understand what a "ground plane" is: an entire PCB layer of copper dedicated only to Gnd. The purpose is to minimize the inductance of signal traces. A HF current loop minimizes its magnetic energy by letting the return current through the ground plane automagically follow a parallel path under the signal trace. That is why a ground plane must be uninterrupted except by small vias, so as to not break the path of the return current. This does wonders for EMC, at very little PCB layout effort.
                        – StessenJ
                        18 hours ago












                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote









                      To achieve even lower inductance, widen either or both of VDD and GND traces (neither traces are a large region of copper metal, or foil as used in fabricating the PCB, so neither is a
                      "plane"). By using that 1mm minimum separation all along that region, you will better exploit those two capacitors in supplying transient currents to the microcontroller.





                      schematic





                      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






                      share|improve this answer














                      To achieve even lower inductance, widen either or both of VDD and GND traces (neither traces are a large region of copper metal, or foil as used in fabricating the PCB, so neither is a
                      "plane"). By using that 1mm minimum separation all along that region, you will better exploit those two capacitors in supplying transient currents to the microcontroller.





                      schematic





                      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited yesterday

























                      answered yesterday









                      analogsystemsrf

                      11.7k2616




                      11.7k2616











                      • Indeed the OP does not seem to understand what a "ground plane" is: an entire PCB layer of copper dedicated only to Gnd. The purpose is to minimize the inductance of signal traces. A HF current loop minimizes its magnetic energy by letting the return current through the ground plane automagically follow a parallel path under the signal trace. That is why a ground plane must be uninterrupted except by small vias, so as to not break the path of the return current. This does wonders for EMC, at very little PCB layout effort.
                        – StessenJ
                        18 hours ago
















                      • Indeed the OP does not seem to understand what a "ground plane" is: an entire PCB layer of copper dedicated only to Gnd. The purpose is to minimize the inductance of signal traces. A HF current loop minimizes its magnetic energy by letting the return current through the ground plane automagically follow a parallel path under the signal trace. That is why a ground plane must be uninterrupted except by small vias, so as to not break the path of the return current. This does wonders for EMC, at very little PCB layout effort.
                        – StessenJ
                        18 hours ago















                      Indeed the OP does not seem to understand what a "ground plane" is: an entire PCB layer of copper dedicated only to Gnd. The purpose is to minimize the inductance of signal traces. A HF current loop minimizes its magnetic energy by letting the return current through the ground plane automagically follow a parallel path under the signal trace. That is why a ground plane must be uninterrupted except by small vias, so as to not break the path of the return current. This does wonders for EMC, at very little PCB layout effort.
                      – StessenJ
                      18 hours ago




                      Indeed the OP does not seem to understand what a "ground plane" is: an entire PCB layer of copper dedicated only to Gnd. The purpose is to minimize the inductance of signal traces. A HF current loop minimizes its magnetic energy by letting the return current through the ground plane automagically follow a parallel path under the signal trace. That is why a ground plane must be uninterrupted except by small vias, so as to not break the path of the return current. This does wonders for EMC, at very little PCB layout effort.
                      – StessenJ
                      18 hours ago

















                       

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