What does it mean when proof by contradiction doesn't lead to a contradiction?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











up vote
17
down vote

favorite
1












I started writing a proof using the method of proof by contradiction and encountered a situation which was true. More specifically, the hypothesis that I set out to prove was:



If the first 10 positive integer is placed around a circle, in any order, there exists 3 integer in consecutive locations around the circle that have a sum greater than or equal to 17. (From Discrete Mathematics and its Applications - K. Rosen)



This is how I proceeded:



Let $a_i$ denote the $i^th$ integer on the boundary of the circle. To proceed with proof by contradiction, we assume that $forall i$



$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 < 17$



Then,



$a_1 + a_2 + a_3 < 17$



$a_2 + a_3 + a_4 < 17$



$vdots$



$a_10 + a_1 + a_2 < 17$



$therefore 3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) < 17 cdot10$



$Rightarrow 3 cdot 55 < 170$



$Rightarrow 165 < 170$



which is true. What does this mean?



P.S. I am not looking for the solution to this problem. I am aware of how to prove the claim. I am just curious about what it means to arrive at a truth after assuming the negation of the hypothesis.










share|cite|improve this question

















  • 15




    It doesn't mean very much -- you've made the assumption that any three consecutive numbers will sum to no more than 16, so if after making that assumption you conclude that it's true, then you've just sort of gone in a circle
    – dbx
    Sep 13 at 16:21






  • 11




    It means your proof doesn't work. Either proof by contradiction is not the right approach, or you need to find stronger statements you can make. In the present instance, you really haven't used the fact the $3$ number are consecutive in any way.
    – saulspatz
    Sep 13 at 16:22










  • @Vasya $a_9+a_10+a_1$ is implicitly part of the $vdots$
    – Henry
    Sep 13 at 16:27






  • 3




    I should certainly hope it means nothing, because what's the difference between "not leading to a contradiction" and "I couldn't find a contradiction"? Assume the Riemann hypothesis is false. Hmm, can't seem to think of a contradiction off the top of my head. Guess it must be true.
    – Jack M
    Sep 14 at 9:12






  • 1




    The simplest way to get from your non-proof to a genuine contradiction is to replace "<17" with "<=16" since we are dealing with integers. That then gives "165 <= 160" which is the contradiction you seek. But I agree with the others who say that if you don't arrive at a contradiction, your "proof" isn't proving anything one way or another (though it may give you an idea for a counter-example)
    – JDL
    Sep 14 at 14:51














up vote
17
down vote

favorite
1












I started writing a proof using the method of proof by contradiction and encountered a situation which was true. More specifically, the hypothesis that I set out to prove was:



If the first 10 positive integer is placed around a circle, in any order, there exists 3 integer in consecutive locations around the circle that have a sum greater than or equal to 17. (From Discrete Mathematics and its Applications - K. Rosen)



This is how I proceeded:



Let $a_i$ denote the $i^th$ integer on the boundary of the circle. To proceed with proof by contradiction, we assume that $forall i$



$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 < 17$



Then,



$a_1 + a_2 + a_3 < 17$



$a_2 + a_3 + a_4 < 17$



$vdots$



$a_10 + a_1 + a_2 < 17$



$therefore 3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) < 17 cdot10$



$Rightarrow 3 cdot 55 < 170$



$Rightarrow 165 < 170$



which is true. What does this mean?



P.S. I am not looking for the solution to this problem. I am aware of how to prove the claim. I am just curious about what it means to arrive at a truth after assuming the negation of the hypothesis.










share|cite|improve this question

















  • 15




    It doesn't mean very much -- you've made the assumption that any three consecutive numbers will sum to no more than 16, so if after making that assumption you conclude that it's true, then you've just sort of gone in a circle
    – dbx
    Sep 13 at 16:21






  • 11




    It means your proof doesn't work. Either proof by contradiction is not the right approach, or you need to find stronger statements you can make. In the present instance, you really haven't used the fact the $3$ number are consecutive in any way.
    – saulspatz
    Sep 13 at 16:22










  • @Vasya $a_9+a_10+a_1$ is implicitly part of the $vdots$
    – Henry
    Sep 13 at 16:27






  • 3




    I should certainly hope it means nothing, because what's the difference between "not leading to a contradiction" and "I couldn't find a contradiction"? Assume the Riemann hypothesis is false. Hmm, can't seem to think of a contradiction off the top of my head. Guess it must be true.
    – Jack M
    Sep 14 at 9:12






  • 1




    The simplest way to get from your non-proof to a genuine contradiction is to replace "<17" with "<=16" since we are dealing with integers. That then gives "165 <= 160" which is the contradiction you seek. But I agree with the others who say that if you don't arrive at a contradiction, your "proof" isn't proving anything one way or another (though it may give you an idea for a counter-example)
    – JDL
    Sep 14 at 14:51












up vote
17
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
17
down vote

favorite
1






1





I started writing a proof using the method of proof by contradiction and encountered a situation which was true. More specifically, the hypothesis that I set out to prove was:



If the first 10 positive integer is placed around a circle, in any order, there exists 3 integer in consecutive locations around the circle that have a sum greater than or equal to 17. (From Discrete Mathematics and its Applications - K. Rosen)



This is how I proceeded:



Let $a_i$ denote the $i^th$ integer on the boundary of the circle. To proceed with proof by contradiction, we assume that $forall i$



$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 < 17$



Then,



$a_1 + a_2 + a_3 < 17$



$a_2 + a_3 + a_4 < 17$



$vdots$



$a_10 + a_1 + a_2 < 17$



$therefore 3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) < 17 cdot10$



$Rightarrow 3 cdot 55 < 170$



$Rightarrow 165 < 170$



which is true. What does this mean?



P.S. I am not looking for the solution to this problem. I am aware of how to prove the claim. I am just curious about what it means to arrive at a truth after assuming the negation of the hypothesis.










share|cite|improve this question













I started writing a proof using the method of proof by contradiction and encountered a situation which was true. More specifically, the hypothesis that I set out to prove was:



If the first 10 positive integer is placed around a circle, in any order, there exists 3 integer in consecutive locations around the circle that have a sum greater than or equal to 17. (From Discrete Mathematics and its Applications - K. Rosen)



This is how I proceeded:



Let $a_i$ denote the $i^th$ integer on the boundary of the circle. To proceed with proof by contradiction, we assume that $forall i$



$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 < 17$



Then,



$a_1 + a_2 + a_3 < 17$



$a_2 + a_3 + a_4 < 17$



$vdots$



$a_10 + a_1 + a_2 < 17$



$therefore 3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) < 17 cdot10$



$Rightarrow 3 cdot 55 < 170$



$Rightarrow 165 < 170$



which is true. What does this mean?



P.S. I am not looking for the solution to this problem. I am aware of how to prove the claim. I am just curious about what it means to arrive at a truth after assuming the negation of the hypothesis.







proof-verification proof-writing arithmetic






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Sep 13 at 16:15









Nihal Jain

15517




15517







  • 15




    It doesn't mean very much -- you've made the assumption that any three consecutive numbers will sum to no more than 16, so if after making that assumption you conclude that it's true, then you've just sort of gone in a circle
    – dbx
    Sep 13 at 16:21






  • 11




    It means your proof doesn't work. Either proof by contradiction is not the right approach, or you need to find stronger statements you can make. In the present instance, you really haven't used the fact the $3$ number are consecutive in any way.
    – saulspatz
    Sep 13 at 16:22










  • @Vasya $a_9+a_10+a_1$ is implicitly part of the $vdots$
    – Henry
    Sep 13 at 16:27






  • 3




    I should certainly hope it means nothing, because what's the difference between "not leading to a contradiction" and "I couldn't find a contradiction"? Assume the Riemann hypothesis is false. Hmm, can't seem to think of a contradiction off the top of my head. Guess it must be true.
    – Jack M
    Sep 14 at 9:12






  • 1




    The simplest way to get from your non-proof to a genuine contradiction is to replace "<17" with "<=16" since we are dealing with integers. That then gives "165 <= 160" which is the contradiction you seek. But I agree with the others who say that if you don't arrive at a contradiction, your "proof" isn't proving anything one way or another (though it may give you an idea for a counter-example)
    – JDL
    Sep 14 at 14:51












  • 15




    It doesn't mean very much -- you've made the assumption that any three consecutive numbers will sum to no more than 16, so if after making that assumption you conclude that it's true, then you've just sort of gone in a circle
    – dbx
    Sep 13 at 16:21






  • 11




    It means your proof doesn't work. Either proof by contradiction is not the right approach, or you need to find stronger statements you can make. In the present instance, you really haven't used the fact the $3$ number are consecutive in any way.
    – saulspatz
    Sep 13 at 16:22










  • @Vasya $a_9+a_10+a_1$ is implicitly part of the $vdots$
    – Henry
    Sep 13 at 16:27






  • 3




    I should certainly hope it means nothing, because what's the difference between "not leading to a contradiction" and "I couldn't find a contradiction"? Assume the Riemann hypothesis is false. Hmm, can't seem to think of a contradiction off the top of my head. Guess it must be true.
    – Jack M
    Sep 14 at 9:12






  • 1




    The simplest way to get from your non-proof to a genuine contradiction is to replace "<17" with "<=16" since we are dealing with integers. That then gives "165 <= 160" which is the contradiction you seek. But I agree with the others who say that if you don't arrive at a contradiction, your "proof" isn't proving anything one way or another (though it may give you an idea for a counter-example)
    – JDL
    Sep 14 at 14:51







15




15




It doesn't mean very much -- you've made the assumption that any three consecutive numbers will sum to no more than 16, so if after making that assumption you conclude that it's true, then you've just sort of gone in a circle
– dbx
Sep 13 at 16:21




It doesn't mean very much -- you've made the assumption that any three consecutive numbers will sum to no more than 16, so if after making that assumption you conclude that it's true, then you've just sort of gone in a circle
– dbx
Sep 13 at 16:21




11




11




It means your proof doesn't work. Either proof by contradiction is not the right approach, or you need to find stronger statements you can make. In the present instance, you really haven't used the fact the $3$ number are consecutive in any way.
– saulspatz
Sep 13 at 16:22




It means your proof doesn't work. Either proof by contradiction is not the right approach, or you need to find stronger statements you can make. In the present instance, you really haven't used the fact the $3$ number are consecutive in any way.
– saulspatz
Sep 13 at 16:22












@Vasya $a_9+a_10+a_1$ is implicitly part of the $vdots$
– Henry
Sep 13 at 16:27




@Vasya $a_9+a_10+a_1$ is implicitly part of the $vdots$
– Henry
Sep 13 at 16:27




3




3




I should certainly hope it means nothing, because what's the difference between "not leading to a contradiction" and "I couldn't find a contradiction"? Assume the Riemann hypothesis is false. Hmm, can't seem to think of a contradiction off the top of my head. Guess it must be true.
– Jack M
Sep 14 at 9:12




I should certainly hope it means nothing, because what's the difference between "not leading to a contradiction" and "I couldn't find a contradiction"? Assume the Riemann hypothesis is false. Hmm, can't seem to think of a contradiction off the top of my head. Guess it must be true.
– Jack M
Sep 14 at 9:12




1




1




The simplest way to get from your non-proof to a genuine contradiction is to replace "<17" with "<=16" since we are dealing with integers. That then gives "165 <= 160" which is the contradiction you seek. But I agree with the others who say that if you don't arrive at a contradiction, your "proof" isn't proving anything one way or another (though it may give you an idea for a counter-example)
– JDL
Sep 14 at 14:51




The simplest way to get from your non-proof to a genuine contradiction is to replace "<17" with "<=16" since we are dealing with integers. That then gives "165 <= 160" which is the contradiction you seek. But I agree with the others who say that if you don't arrive at a contradiction, your "proof" isn't proving anything one way or another (though it may give you an idea for a counter-example)
– JDL
Sep 14 at 14:51










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
43
down vote



accepted










Your goal is to show that $p$ is false.



If $p implies q$ and $q$ is true.



We can't conclude if $p$ is true or false. Hence, we get an inconclusive situation.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Could you provide some context by telling what $p$ and $q$ are in the case of this example?
    – Nihal Jain
    Sep 13 at 16:45






  • 1




    your $p$ is "every $3$ in consecutive locations around the table has a sum that is less than $17$. your $q$ is $165<170$.
    – Siong Thye Goh
    Sep 13 at 16:54






  • 10




    yup, if it's sunny ($p$) , i go to play ($q$). But if you observe that I go to play, you can't conclude that it's sunny.
    – Siong Thye Goh
    Sep 13 at 17:13






  • 4




    Note that the implications of many algebraic manipulations work in both directions - for example, $x + 1 = 2$ implies $x = 1$, but $x = 1$ also implies $x + 1 = 2$. If all the steps in your proof are reversible then you've shown $q$ to imply $p$, thus $p$ is true. But that's not the case in your example - the step where you sum up your inequalities is a single-direction implication (the statement after your three dots does not imply the 10 statements before it).
    – MartianInvader
    Sep 13 at 21:08







  • 1




    It could be set up a little differently to work. Although $165<170$ is true it is still a contradiction because an average sum of $16.5$ necessitates scores both above and below $16.5$ because it is not a whole number.
    – Phil H
    Sep 13 at 21:18


















up vote
28
down vote













It means that your precise approach does not work, but since this does not provide a counterexample it means the question would still be open.



Seeing $170-165$ is so small, there may be a way to save your proof. Try $$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 le 16$$



leading to $$3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) le 16 cdot10$$ and $$165 le 160$$ for a contradiction






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • I see it now, thanks
    – Vasya
    Sep 13 at 16:29










  • Woah! I didn't know that proofs could be tweaked like this to change the conclusions. Thanks for your input! However, could you explain why arriving at a truth $(165 < 170)$ does not mean that the initial assumptions must be true?
    – Nihal Jain
    Sep 13 at 16:44






  • 2




    @NihalJain If you show $p implies q$ then this excludes the possibility that $p$ is true and $q$ is false, but there remain three possibilities: (1) $p$ is true and $q$ is true; (2) $p$ is false and $q$ is true; (3) $p$ is false and $q$ is false. If you also know that $q$ is true then that excludes (3), but does not help in deciding between (1) and (2), so it is possible that $p$ is true and it is possible that $p$ is false.
    – Henry
    Sep 13 at 17:08










  • @Henry yes, this point was made even below. I've understood where I went wrong. Thanks :)
    – Nihal Jain
    Sep 13 at 17:40

















up vote
2
down vote













A proof by contradiction functions by saying "if A is false, B must be true. I can prove that B is false, so A cannot be false."



You proved that B is true. This means that A could be false, but is not necessarily so because we have made no statements that relate the truth of A to the truth of B.






share|cite|improve this answer



























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    You can (more or less) avoid the complications of a proof by contradiction by reasoning as follows:



    The total of the $10$ sums of consecutive triplets $a_i+a_i+1+a_i+2$ is $3 times 55 = 165$. Therefore the average of the sums of consecutive triplets is $165/10 = 16.5$. But each sum is an integer, and if a set of integers has an average of $16.5$, at least one of them must be $ge 17$.



    (It could perhaps be argued that the final claim here requires a proof, and that would be a proof by contradiction.)






    share|cite|improve this answer






















    • I don't see how this answers the actual question being asked, namely what does it mean when you try proof by contradiction and don't find a contradiction.
      – David Z
      Sep 15 at 0:32










    • @DavidZ The original question was already answered but the discussion had moved on. I was offering an alternative approach.
      – gandalf61
      Sep 15 at 6:30

















    up vote
    0
    down vote













    Try this. Assuming there is a solution that always sums to less than $17$ for $3$ consecutive numbers, and building around the number $10$, the only possible number combinations adjacent to $10$ will be $4$ numbers from the subset $1,2,3,4,5$. Taking the maximum of these as $1,5$ and $2,4$ $(1,5,10,2,4)$ leaves a minimum sequence of $3,6,7,8,9$.



    These $5$ numbers are impossible to arrange so all $3$ consecutive numbers in this subset are less than $17$. That is, the only $3$ numbers summing to less than $17$ are $6,3,7$ and adding an $8$ or $9$ to this sequence results in a $3$ consecutive number sum being greater than $16$. Hence the impossibility or contradiction of this assumption.






    share|cite|improve this answer






















      Your Answer




      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      );
      );
      , "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "69"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      convertImagesToLinks: true,
      noModals: false,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: 10,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













       

      draft saved


      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2915786%2fwhat-does-it-mean-when-proof-by-contradiction-doesnt-lead-to-a-contradiction%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest






























      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      43
      down vote



      accepted










      Your goal is to show that $p$ is false.



      If $p implies q$ and $q$ is true.



      We can't conclude if $p$ is true or false. Hence, we get an inconclusive situation.






      share|cite|improve this answer




















      • Could you provide some context by telling what $p$ and $q$ are in the case of this example?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:45






      • 1




        your $p$ is "every $3$ in consecutive locations around the table has a sum that is less than $17$. your $q$ is $165<170$.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 16:54






      • 10




        yup, if it's sunny ($p$) , i go to play ($q$). But if you observe that I go to play, you can't conclude that it's sunny.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 17:13






      • 4




        Note that the implications of many algebraic manipulations work in both directions - for example, $x + 1 = 2$ implies $x = 1$, but $x = 1$ also implies $x + 1 = 2$. If all the steps in your proof are reversible then you've shown $q$ to imply $p$, thus $p$ is true. But that's not the case in your example - the step where you sum up your inequalities is a single-direction implication (the statement after your three dots does not imply the 10 statements before it).
        – MartianInvader
        Sep 13 at 21:08







      • 1




        It could be set up a little differently to work. Although $165<170$ is true it is still a contradiction because an average sum of $16.5$ necessitates scores both above and below $16.5$ because it is not a whole number.
        – Phil H
        Sep 13 at 21:18















      up vote
      43
      down vote



      accepted










      Your goal is to show that $p$ is false.



      If $p implies q$ and $q$ is true.



      We can't conclude if $p$ is true or false. Hence, we get an inconclusive situation.






      share|cite|improve this answer




















      • Could you provide some context by telling what $p$ and $q$ are in the case of this example?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:45






      • 1




        your $p$ is "every $3$ in consecutive locations around the table has a sum that is less than $17$. your $q$ is $165<170$.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 16:54






      • 10




        yup, if it's sunny ($p$) , i go to play ($q$). But if you observe that I go to play, you can't conclude that it's sunny.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 17:13






      • 4




        Note that the implications of many algebraic manipulations work in both directions - for example, $x + 1 = 2$ implies $x = 1$, but $x = 1$ also implies $x + 1 = 2$. If all the steps in your proof are reversible then you've shown $q$ to imply $p$, thus $p$ is true. But that's not the case in your example - the step where you sum up your inequalities is a single-direction implication (the statement after your three dots does not imply the 10 statements before it).
        – MartianInvader
        Sep 13 at 21:08







      • 1




        It could be set up a little differently to work. Although $165<170$ is true it is still a contradiction because an average sum of $16.5$ necessitates scores both above and below $16.5$ because it is not a whole number.
        – Phil H
        Sep 13 at 21:18













      up vote
      43
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      43
      down vote



      accepted






      Your goal is to show that $p$ is false.



      If $p implies q$ and $q$ is true.



      We can't conclude if $p$ is true or false. Hence, we get an inconclusive situation.






      share|cite|improve this answer












      Your goal is to show that $p$ is false.



      If $p implies q$ and $q$ is true.



      We can't conclude if $p$ is true or false. Hence, we get an inconclusive situation.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered Sep 13 at 16:20









      Siong Thye Goh

      83.8k1457106




      83.8k1457106











      • Could you provide some context by telling what $p$ and $q$ are in the case of this example?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:45






      • 1




        your $p$ is "every $3$ in consecutive locations around the table has a sum that is less than $17$. your $q$ is $165<170$.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 16:54






      • 10




        yup, if it's sunny ($p$) , i go to play ($q$). But if you observe that I go to play, you can't conclude that it's sunny.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 17:13






      • 4




        Note that the implications of many algebraic manipulations work in both directions - for example, $x + 1 = 2$ implies $x = 1$, but $x = 1$ also implies $x + 1 = 2$. If all the steps in your proof are reversible then you've shown $q$ to imply $p$, thus $p$ is true. But that's not the case in your example - the step where you sum up your inequalities is a single-direction implication (the statement after your three dots does not imply the 10 statements before it).
        – MartianInvader
        Sep 13 at 21:08







      • 1




        It could be set up a little differently to work. Although $165<170$ is true it is still a contradiction because an average sum of $16.5$ necessitates scores both above and below $16.5$ because it is not a whole number.
        – Phil H
        Sep 13 at 21:18

















      • Could you provide some context by telling what $p$ and $q$ are in the case of this example?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:45






      • 1




        your $p$ is "every $3$ in consecutive locations around the table has a sum that is less than $17$. your $q$ is $165<170$.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 16:54






      • 10




        yup, if it's sunny ($p$) , i go to play ($q$). But if you observe that I go to play, you can't conclude that it's sunny.
        – Siong Thye Goh
        Sep 13 at 17:13






      • 4




        Note that the implications of many algebraic manipulations work in both directions - for example, $x + 1 = 2$ implies $x = 1$, but $x = 1$ also implies $x + 1 = 2$. If all the steps in your proof are reversible then you've shown $q$ to imply $p$, thus $p$ is true. But that's not the case in your example - the step where you sum up your inequalities is a single-direction implication (the statement after your three dots does not imply the 10 statements before it).
        – MartianInvader
        Sep 13 at 21:08







      • 1




        It could be set up a little differently to work. Although $165<170$ is true it is still a contradiction because an average sum of $16.5$ necessitates scores both above and below $16.5$ because it is not a whole number.
        – Phil H
        Sep 13 at 21:18
















      Could you provide some context by telling what $p$ and $q$ are in the case of this example?
      – Nihal Jain
      Sep 13 at 16:45




      Could you provide some context by telling what $p$ and $q$ are in the case of this example?
      – Nihal Jain
      Sep 13 at 16:45




      1




      1




      your $p$ is "every $3$ in consecutive locations around the table has a sum that is less than $17$. your $q$ is $165<170$.
      – Siong Thye Goh
      Sep 13 at 16:54




      your $p$ is "every $3$ in consecutive locations around the table has a sum that is less than $17$. your $q$ is $165<170$.
      – Siong Thye Goh
      Sep 13 at 16:54




      10




      10




      yup, if it's sunny ($p$) , i go to play ($q$). But if you observe that I go to play, you can't conclude that it's sunny.
      – Siong Thye Goh
      Sep 13 at 17:13




      yup, if it's sunny ($p$) , i go to play ($q$). But if you observe that I go to play, you can't conclude that it's sunny.
      – Siong Thye Goh
      Sep 13 at 17:13




      4




      4




      Note that the implications of many algebraic manipulations work in both directions - for example, $x + 1 = 2$ implies $x = 1$, but $x = 1$ also implies $x + 1 = 2$. If all the steps in your proof are reversible then you've shown $q$ to imply $p$, thus $p$ is true. But that's not the case in your example - the step where you sum up your inequalities is a single-direction implication (the statement after your three dots does not imply the 10 statements before it).
      – MartianInvader
      Sep 13 at 21:08





      Note that the implications of many algebraic manipulations work in both directions - for example, $x + 1 = 2$ implies $x = 1$, but $x = 1$ also implies $x + 1 = 2$. If all the steps in your proof are reversible then you've shown $q$ to imply $p$, thus $p$ is true. But that's not the case in your example - the step where you sum up your inequalities is a single-direction implication (the statement after your three dots does not imply the 10 statements before it).
      – MartianInvader
      Sep 13 at 21:08





      1




      1




      It could be set up a little differently to work. Although $165<170$ is true it is still a contradiction because an average sum of $16.5$ necessitates scores both above and below $16.5$ because it is not a whole number.
      – Phil H
      Sep 13 at 21:18





      It could be set up a little differently to work. Although $165<170$ is true it is still a contradiction because an average sum of $16.5$ necessitates scores both above and below $16.5$ because it is not a whole number.
      – Phil H
      Sep 13 at 21:18











      up vote
      28
      down vote













      It means that your precise approach does not work, but since this does not provide a counterexample it means the question would still be open.



      Seeing $170-165$ is so small, there may be a way to save your proof. Try $$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 le 16$$



      leading to $$3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) le 16 cdot10$$ and $$165 le 160$$ for a contradiction






      share|cite|improve this answer




















      • I see it now, thanks
        – Vasya
        Sep 13 at 16:29










      • Woah! I didn't know that proofs could be tweaked like this to change the conclusions. Thanks for your input! However, could you explain why arriving at a truth $(165 < 170)$ does not mean that the initial assumptions must be true?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:44






      • 2




        @NihalJain If you show $p implies q$ then this excludes the possibility that $p$ is true and $q$ is false, but there remain three possibilities: (1) $p$ is true and $q$ is true; (2) $p$ is false and $q$ is true; (3) $p$ is false and $q$ is false. If you also know that $q$ is true then that excludes (3), but does not help in deciding between (1) and (2), so it is possible that $p$ is true and it is possible that $p$ is false.
        – Henry
        Sep 13 at 17:08










      • @Henry yes, this point was made even below. I've understood where I went wrong. Thanks :)
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 17:40














      up vote
      28
      down vote













      It means that your precise approach does not work, but since this does not provide a counterexample it means the question would still be open.



      Seeing $170-165$ is so small, there may be a way to save your proof. Try $$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 le 16$$



      leading to $$3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) le 16 cdot10$$ and $$165 le 160$$ for a contradiction






      share|cite|improve this answer




















      • I see it now, thanks
        – Vasya
        Sep 13 at 16:29










      • Woah! I didn't know that proofs could be tweaked like this to change the conclusions. Thanks for your input! However, could you explain why arriving at a truth $(165 < 170)$ does not mean that the initial assumptions must be true?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:44






      • 2




        @NihalJain If you show $p implies q$ then this excludes the possibility that $p$ is true and $q$ is false, but there remain three possibilities: (1) $p$ is true and $q$ is true; (2) $p$ is false and $q$ is true; (3) $p$ is false and $q$ is false. If you also know that $q$ is true then that excludes (3), but does not help in deciding between (1) and (2), so it is possible that $p$ is true and it is possible that $p$ is false.
        – Henry
        Sep 13 at 17:08










      • @Henry yes, this point was made even below. I've understood where I went wrong. Thanks :)
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 17:40












      up vote
      28
      down vote










      up vote
      28
      down vote









      It means that your precise approach does not work, but since this does not provide a counterexample it means the question would still be open.



      Seeing $170-165$ is so small, there may be a way to save your proof. Try $$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 le 16$$



      leading to $$3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) le 16 cdot10$$ and $$165 le 160$$ for a contradiction






      share|cite|improve this answer












      It means that your precise approach does not work, but since this does not provide a counterexample it means the question would still be open.



      Seeing $170-165$ is so small, there may be a way to save your proof. Try $$a_i + a_i+1 + a_i+2 le 16$$



      leading to $$3 cdot (a_1 + a_2 + dots + a_10) le 16 cdot10$$ and $$165 le 160$$ for a contradiction







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered Sep 13 at 16:21









      Henry

      94.7k473151




      94.7k473151











      • I see it now, thanks
        – Vasya
        Sep 13 at 16:29










      • Woah! I didn't know that proofs could be tweaked like this to change the conclusions. Thanks for your input! However, could you explain why arriving at a truth $(165 < 170)$ does not mean that the initial assumptions must be true?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:44






      • 2




        @NihalJain If you show $p implies q$ then this excludes the possibility that $p$ is true and $q$ is false, but there remain three possibilities: (1) $p$ is true and $q$ is true; (2) $p$ is false and $q$ is true; (3) $p$ is false and $q$ is false. If you also know that $q$ is true then that excludes (3), but does not help in deciding between (1) and (2), so it is possible that $p$ is true and it is possible that $p$ is false.
        – Henry
        Sep 13 at 17:08










      • @Henry yes, this point was made even below. I've understood where I went wrong. Thanks :)
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 17:40
















      • I see it now, thanks
        – Vasya
        Sep 13 at 16:29










      • Woah! I didn't know that proofs could be tweaked like this to change the conclusions. Thanks for your input! However, could you explain why arriving at a truth $(165 < 170)$ does not mean that the initial assumptions must be true?
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 16:44






      • 2




        @NihalJain If you show $p implies q$ then this excludes the possibility that $p$ is true and $q$ is false, but there remain three possibilities: (1) $p$ is true and $q$ is true; (2) $p$ is false and $q$ is true; (3) $p$ is false and $q$ is false. If you also know that $q$ is true then that excludes (3), but does not help in deciding between (1) and (2), so it is possible that $p$ is true and it is possible that $p$ is false.
        – Henry
        Sep 13 at 17:08










      • @Henry yes, this point was made even below. I've understood where I went wrong. Thanks :)
        – Nihal Jain
        Sep 13 at 17:40















      I see it now, thanks
      – Vasya
      Sep 13 at 16:29




      I see it now, thanks
      – Vasya
      Sep 13 at 16:29












      Woah! I didn't know that proofs could be tweaked like this to change the conclusions. Thanks for your input! However, could you explain why arriving at a truth $(165 < 170)$ does not mean that the initial assumptions must be true?
      – Nihal Jain
      Sep 13 at 16:44




      Woah! I didn't know that proofs could be tweaked like this to change the conclusions. Thanks for your input! However, could you explain why arriving at a truth $(165 < 170)$ does not mean that the initial assumptions must be true?
      – Nihal Jain
      Sep 13 at 16:44




      2




      2




      @NihalJain If you show $p implies q$ then this excludes the possibility that $p$ is true and $q$ is false, but there remain three possibilities: (1) $p$ is true and $q$ is true; (2) $p$ is false and $q$ is true; (3) $p$ is false and $q$ is false. If you also know that $q$ is true then that excludes (3), but does not help in deciding between (1) and (2), so it is possible that $p$ is true and it is possible that $p$ is false.
      – Henry
      Sep 13 at 17:08




      @NihalJain If you show $p implies q$ then this excludes the possibility that $p$ is true and $q$ is false, but there remain three possibilities: (1) $p$ is true and $q$ is true; (2) $p$ is false and $q$ is true; (3) $p$ is false and $q$ is false. If you also know that $q$ is true then that excludes (3), but does not help in deciding between (1) and (2), so it is possible that $p$ is true and it is possible that $p$ is false.
      – Henry
      Sep 13 at 17:08












      @Henry yes, this point was made even below. I've understood where I went wrong. Thanks :)
      – Nihal Jain
      Sep 13 at 17:40




      @Henry yes, this point was made even below. I've understood where I went wrong. Thanks :)
      – Nihal Jain
      Sep 13 at 17:40










      up vote
      2
      down vote













      A proof by contradiction functions by saying "if A is false, B must be true. I can prove that B is false, so A cannot be false."



      You proved that B is true. This means that A could be false, but is not necessarily so because we have made no statements that relate the truth of A to the truth of B.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        up vote
        2
        down vote













        A proof by contradiction functions by saying "if A is false, B must be true. I can prove that B is false, so A cannot be false."



        You proved that B is true. This means that A could be false, but is not necessarily so because we have made no statements that relate the truth of A to the truth of B.






        share|cite|improve this answer






















          up vote
          2
          down vote










          up vote
          2
          down vote









          A proof by contradiction functions by saying "if A is false, B must be true. I can prove that B is false, so A cannot be false."



          You proved that B is true. This means that A could be false, but is not necessarily so because we have made no statements that relate the truth of A to the truth of B.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          A proof by contradiction functions by saying "if A is false, B must be true. I can prove that B is false, so A cannot be false."



          You proved that B is true. This means that A could be false, but is not necessarily so because we have made no statements that relate the truth of A to the truth of B.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Sep 13 at 21:30









          Arcanist Lupus

          2012




          2012




















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              You can (more or less) avoid the complications of a proof by contradiction by reasoning as follows:



              The total of the $10$ sums of consecutive triplets $a_i+a_i+1+a_i+2$ is $3 times 55 = 165$. Therefore the average of the sums of consecutive triplets is $165/10 = 16.5$. But each sum is an integer, and if a set of integers has an average of $16.5$, at least one of them must be $ge 17$.



              (It could perhaps be argued that the final claim here requires a proof, and that would be a proof by contradiction.)






              share|cite|improve this answer






















              • I don't see how this answers the actual question being asked, namely what does it mean when you try proof by contradiction and don't find a contradiction.
                – David Z
                Sep 15 at 0:32










              • @DavidZ The original question was already answered but the discussion had moved on. I was offering an alternative approach.
                – gandalf61
                Sep 15 at 6:30














              up vote
              2
              down vote













              You can (more or less) avoid the complications of a proof by contradiction by reasoning as follows:



              The total of the $10$ sums of consecutive triplets $a_i+a_i+1+a_i+2$ is $3 times 55 = 165$. Therefore the average of the sums of consecutive triplets is $165/10 = 16.5$. But each sum is an integer, and if a set of integers has an average of $16.5$, at least one of them must be $ge 17$.



              (It could perhaps be argued that the final claim here requires a proof, and that would be a proof by contradiction.)






              share|cite|improve this answer






















              • I don't see how this answers the actual question being asked, namely what does it mean when you try proof by contradiction and don't find a contradiction.
                – David Z
                Sep 15 at 0:32










              • @DavidZ The original question was already answered but the discussion had moved on. I was offering an alternative approach.
                – gandalf61
                Sep 15 at 6:30












              up vote
              2
              down vote










              up vote
              2
              down vote









              You can (more or less) avoid the complications of a proof by contradiction by reasoning as follows:



              The total of the $10$ sums of consecutive triplets $a_i+a_i+1+a_i+2$ is $3 times 55 = 165$. Therefore the average of the sums of consecutive triplets is $165/10 = 16.5$. But each sum is an integer, and if a set of integers has an average of $16.5$, at least one of them must be $ge 17$.



              (It could perhaps be argued that the final claim here requires a proof, and that would be a proof by contradiction.)






              share|cite|improve this answer














              You can (more or less) avoid the complications of a proof by contradiction by reasoning as follows:



              The total of the $10$ sums of consecutive triplets $a_i+a_i+1+a_i+2$ is $3 times 55 = 165$. Therefore the average of the sums of consecutive triplets is $165/10 = 16.5$. But each sum is an integer, and if a set of integers has an average of $16.5$, at least one of them must be $ge 17$.



              (It could perhaps be argued that the final claim here requires a proof, and that would be a proof by contradiction.)







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited Sep 14 at 21:00









              mechanodroid

              24.8k62245




              24.8k62245










              answered Sep 14 at 9:48









              gandalf61

              6,334522




              6,334522











              • I don't see how this answers the actual question being asked, namely what does it mean when you try proof by contradiction and don't find a contradiction.
                – David Z
                Sep 15 at 0:32










              • @DavidZ The original question was already answered but the discussion had moved on. I was offering an alternative approach.
                – gandalf61
                Sep 15 at 6:30
















              • I don't see how this answers the actual question being asked, namely what does it mean when you try proof by contradiction and don't find a contradiction.
                – David Z
                Sep 15 at 0:32










              • @DavidZ The original question was already answered but the discussion had moved on. I was offering an alternative approach.
                – gandalf61
                Sep 15 at 6:30















              I don't see how this answers the actual question being asked, namely what does it mean when you try proof by contradiction and don't find a contradiction.
              – David Z
              Sep 15 at 0:32




              I don't see how this answers the actual question being asked, namely what does it mean when you try proof by contradiction and don't find a contradiction.
              – David Z
              Sep 15 at 0:32












              @DavidZ The original question was already answered but the discussion had moved on. I was offering an alternative approach.
              – gandalf61
              Sep 15 at 6:30




              @DavidZ The original question was already answered but the discussion had moved on. I was offering an alternative approach.
              – gandalf61
              Sep 15 at 6:30










              up vote
              0
              down vote













              Try this. Assuming there is a solution that always sums to less than $17$ for $3$ consecutive numbers, and building around the number $10$, the only possible number combinations adjacent to $10$ will be $4$ numbers from the subset $1,2,3,4,5$. Taking the maximum of these as $1,5$ and $2,4$ $(1,5,10,2,4)$ leaves a minimum sequence of $3,6,7,8,9$.



              These $5$ numbers are impossible to arrange so all $3$ consecutive numbers in this subset are less than $17$. That is, the only $3$ numbers summing to less than $17$ are $6,3,7$ and adding an $8$ or $9$ to this sequence results in a $3$ consecutive number sum being greater than $16$. Hence the impossibility or contradiction of this assumption.






              share|cite|improve this answer


























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                Try this. Assuming there is a solution that always sums to less than $17$ for $3$ consecutive numbers, and building around the number $10$, the only possible number combinations adjacent to $10$ will be $4$ numbers from the subset $1,2,3,4,5$. Taking the maximum of these as $1,5$ and $2,4$ $(1,5,10,2,4)$ leaves a minimum sequence of $3,6,7,8,9$.



                These $5$ numbers are impossible to arrange so all $3$ consecutive numbers in this subset are less than $17$. That is, the only $3$ numbers summing to less than $17$ are $6,3,7$ and adding an $8$ or $9$ to this sequence results in a $3$ consecutive number sum being greater than $16$. Hence the impossibility or contradiction of this assumption.






                share|cite|improve this answer
























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  Try this. Assuming there is a solution that always sums to less than $17$ for $3$ consecutive numbers, and building around the number $10$, the only possible number combinations adjacent to $10$ will be $4$ numbers from the subset $1,2,3,4,5$. Taking the maximum of these as $1,5$ and $2,4$ $(1,5,10,2,4)$ leaves a minimum sequence of $3,6,7,8,9$.



                  These $5$ numbers are impossible to arrange so all $3$ consecutive numbers in this subset are less than $17$. That is, the only $3$ numbers summing to less than $17$ are $6,3,7$ and adding an $8$ or $9$ to this sequence results in a $3$ consecutive number sum being greater than $16$. Hence the impossibility or contradiction of this assumption.






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  Try this. Assuming there is a solution that always sums to less than $17$ for $3$ consecutive numbers, and building around the number $10$, the only possible number combinations adjacent to $10$ will be $4$ numbers from the subset $1,2,3,4,5$. Taking the maximum of these as $1,5$ and $2,4$ $(1,5,10,2,4)$ leaves a minimum sequence of $3,6,7,8,9$.



                  These $5$ numbers are impossible to arrange so all $3$ consecutive numbers in this subset are less than $17$. That is, the only $3$ numbers summing to less than $17$ are $6,3,7$ and adding an $8$ or $9$ to this sequence results in a $3$ consecutive number sum being greater than $16$. Hence the impossibility or contradiction of this assumption.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Sep 13 at 17:32

























                  answered Sep 13 at 17:21









                  Phil H

                  2,5512311




                  2,5512311



























                       

                      draft saved


                      draft discarded















































                       


                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2915786%2fwhat-does-it-mean-when-proof-by-contradiction-doesnt-lead-to-a-contradiction%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest













































































                      Popular posts from this blog

                      How to check contact read email or not when send email to Individual?

                      Displaying single band from multi-band raster using QGIS

                      How many registers does an x86_64 CPU actually have?