Why does the date for the prayer for rain change from one century to the next?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
My due diligence:
- Praying for rain in the Diaspora
- How to calculate 60 days from tekufat tishri for any given year?
- On which evening should we start saying “V'tein tal u'matar li'vrachah”?
I see that I’m walking into a “duplicate question” minefield. So if you’ve got an answer, answer quickly.
Suppose that we use the word “summer” to refer to that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively warm weather, long days and short nights; and we use the word “winter” by contrast to mean that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively cold weather, short days and long nights.
If we do all of that math described in all of those previous questions and conclude that in one century we will begin to pray for rain on December 3, and in the next century we will begin on December 4, and in the next century we will begin on December 5, is that because December is moving from winter to summer, or because our prayer for rain is? Or is there some third alternative?
In other words, I'm not asking how to compute anything. I'm asking what these computations are supposed to achieve, and what they will achieve. In what sense will this set of rules (our complicated rule for this prayer and the complicated rule concerning February 29) preserve the seasonality of our prayer and of the months January through December?
tefilla calendar mathematics
add a comment |
My due diligence:
- Praying for rain in the Diaspora
- How to calculate 60 days from tekufat tishri for any given year?
- On which evening should we start saying “V'tein tal u'matar li'vrachah”?
I see that I’m walking into a “duplicate question” minefield. So if you’ve got an answer, answer quickly.
Suppose that we use the word “summer” to refer to that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively warm weather, long days and short nights; and we use the word “winter” by contrast to mean that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively cold weather, short days and long nights.
If we do all of that math described in all of those previous questions and conclude that in one century we will begin to pray for rain on December 3, and in the next century we will begin on December 4, and in the next century we will begin on December 5, is that because December is moving from winter to summer, or because our prayer for rain is? Or is there some third alternative?
In other words, I'm not asking how to compute anything. I'm asking what these computations are supposed to achieve, and what they will achieve. In what sense will this set of rules (our complicated rule for this prayer and the complicated rule concerning February 29) preserve the seasonality of our prayer and of the months January through December?
tefilla calendar mathematics
Because the prayer for rain is moving - it is calculated using (the somewhat inaccurate) tekufat shmuel
– Joel K
Jan 2 at 14:56
@Joel K So we're committed to a system that will sooner or later have us praying for rain in every season?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 14:57
@Chaim the system also will sooner or later have Pesach be on every season. No system is perfect. Ours is good enough.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 15:02
Since the edit, this question becomes relevant (but not a dupe).
– DonielF
Jan 2 at 15:12
add a comment |
My due diligence:
- Praying for rain in the Diaspora
- How to calculate 60 days from tekufat tishri for any given year?
- On which evening should we start saying “V'tein tal u'matar li'vrachah”?
I see that I’m walking into a “duplicate question” minefield. So if you’ve got an answer, answer quickly.
Suppose that we use the word “summer” to refer to that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively warm weather, long days and short nights; and we use the word “winter” by contrast to mean that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively cold weather, short days and long nights.
If we do all of that math described in all of those previous questions and conclude that in one century we will begin to pray for rain on December 3, and in the next century we will begin on December 4, and in the next century we will begin on December 5, is that because December is moving from winter to summer, or because our prayer for rain is? Or is there some third alternative?
In other words, I'm not asking how to compute anything. I'm asking what these computations are supposed to achieve, and what they will achieve. In what sense will this set of rules (our complicated rule for this prayer and the complicated rule concerning February 29) preserve the seasonality of our prayer and of the months January through December?
tefilla calendar mathematics
My due diligence:
- Praying for rain in the Diaspora
- How to calculate 60 days from tekufat tishri for any given year?
- On which evening should we start saying “V'tein tal u'matar li'vrachah”?
I see that I’m walking into a “duplicate question” minefield. So if you’ve got an answer, answer quickly.
Suppose that we use the word “summer” to refer to that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively warm weather, long days and short nights; and we use the word “winter” by contrast to mean that part of the year when the northern hemisphere has relatively cold weather, short days and long nights.
If we do all of that math described in all of those previous questions and conclude that in one century we will begin to pray for rain on December 3, and in the next century we will begin on December 4, and in the next century we will begin on December 5, is that because December is moving from winter to summer, or because our prayer for rain is? Or is there some third alternative?
In other words, I'm not asking how to compute anything. I'm asking what these computations are supposed to achieve, and what they will achieve. In what sense will this set of rules (our complicated rule for this prayer and the complicated rule concerning February 29) preserve the seasonality of our prayer and of the months January through December?
tefilla calendar mathematics
tefilla calendar mathematics
edited Jan 2 at 18:06
Chaim
asked Jan 2 at 14:54
ChaimChaim
910210
910210
Because the prayer for rain is moving - it is calculated using (the somewhat inaccurate) tekufat shmuel
– Joel K
Jan 2 at 14:56
@Joel K So we're committed to a system that will sooner or later have us praying for rain in every season?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 14:57
@Chaim the system also will sooner or later have Pesach be on every season. No system is perfect. Ours is good enough.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 15:02
Since the edit, this question becomes relevant (but not a dupe).
– DonielF
Jan 2 at 15:12
add a comment |
Because the prayer for rain is moving - it is calculated using (the somewhat inaccurate) tekufat shmuel
– Joel K
Jan 2 at 14:56
@Joel K So we're committed to a system that will sooner or later have us praying for rain in every season?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 14:57
@Chaim the system also will sooner or later have Pesach be on every season. No system is perfect. Ours is good enough.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 15:02
Since the edit, this question becomes relevant (but not a dupe).
– DonielF
Jan 2 at 15:12
Because the prayer for rain is moving - it is calculated using (the somewhat inaccurate) tekufat shmuel
– Joel K
Jan 2 at 14:56
Because the prayer for rain is moving - it is calculated using (the somewhat inaccurate) tekufat shmuel
– Joel K
Jan 2 at 14:56
@Joel K So we're committed to a system that will sooner or later have us praying for rain in every season?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 14:57
@Joel K So we're committed to a system that will sooner or later have us praying for rain in every season?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 14:57
@Chaim the system also will sooner or later have Pesach be on every season. No system is perfect. Ours is good enough.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 15:02
@Chaim the system also will sooner or later have Pesach be on every season. No system is perfect. Ours is good enough.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 15:02
Since the edit, this question becomes relevant (but not a dupe).
– DonielF
Jan 2 at 15:12
Since the edit, this question becomes relevant (but not a dupe).
– DonielF
Jan 2 at 15:12
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
The rules try to keep the date for requesting rain in the late fall. They are not perfect. No rule would be except adding the ever-changing long decimal tropical year length.
If we were to take a simple rule and start requesting rain always 365 days after the previous time, we'd end up shifting a day earlier every four years.
If we were to do that, but every four years add back one day to compensate, we'd end up shifting a day later about every 130 years.
If we were to do that, but three times every four hundred years drop out one day each to compensate, we'd still end up off a day every ~3200 years.
Method 2 is what we use for simplicity because it's good enough. Method 3 is what modern calendars use (by way of including February 29 sometimes). That's why 3 times every 400 years (specifically, in whole century years not divisible by 400) our date shifts relative to modern calendars.
But everyone really is just approximating since the tropical year isn't a rational number of days long. Either you use the precise astronomically calculated decimal value, or you approximate to an accuracy that is "good enough" for your purposes.
What's the halachic source for our current way of determining the date for the prayer for rain?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 18:41
1
@Chaim the Talmud in the first chapter of Taanit says to start 60 days after the equinox. The equinox is calculated using the approximation detailed above and at judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12674/759 . Were it not for approximating we'd start around November 22 but over the centuries we've drifted all of about two weeks. Not such a big deal.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 18:52
So this method of calculating the equinox is described in Ta'anis?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 22:30
@chaim shmuel's tekufa is described in Eruvin 56a
– Double AA♦
Jan 3 at 0:07
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The rules try to keep the date for requesting rain in the late fall. They are not perfect. No rule would be except adding the ever-changing long decimal tropical year length.
If we were to take a simple rule and start requesting rain always 365 days after the previous time, we'd end up shifting a day earlier every four years.
If we were to do that, but every four years add back one day to compensate, we'd end up shifting a day later about every 130 years.
If we were to do that, but three times every four hundred years drop out one day each to compensate, we'd still end up off a day every ~3200 years.
Method 2 is what we use for simplicity because it's good enough. Method 3 is what modern calendars use (by way of including February 29 sometimes). That's why 3 times every 400 years (specifically, in whole century years not divisible by 400) our date shifts relative to modern calendars.
But everyone really is just approximating since the tropical year isn't a rational number of days long. Either you use the precise astronomically calculated decimal value, or you approximate to an accuracy that is "good enough" for your purposes.
What's the halachic source for our current way of determining the date for the prayer for rain?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 18:41
1
@Chaim the Talmud in the first chapter of Taanit says to start 60 days after the equinox. The equinox is calculated using the approximation detailed above and at judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12674/759 . Were it not for approximating we'd start around November 22 but over the centuries we've drifted all of about two weeks. Not such a big deal.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 18:52
So this method of calculating the equinox is described in Ta'anis?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 22:30
@chaim shmuel's tekufa is described in Eruvin 56a
– Double AA♦
Jan 3 at 0:07
add a comment |
The rules try to keep the date for requesting rain in the late fall. They are not perfect. No rule would be except adding the ever-changing long decimal tropical year length.
If we were to take a simple rule and start requesting rain always 365 days after the previous time, we'd end up shifting a day earlier every four years.
If we were to do that, but every four years add back one day to compensate, we'd end up shifting a day later about every 130 years.
If we were to do that, but three times every four hundred years drop out one day each to compensate, we'd still end up off a day every ~3200 years.
Method 2 is what we use for simplicity because it's good enough. Method 3 is what modern calendars use (by way of including February 29 sometimes). That's why 3 times every 400 years (specifically, in whole century years not divisible by 400) our date shifts relative to modern calendars.
But everyone really is just approximating since the tropical year isn't a rational number of days long. Either you use the precise astronomically calculated decimal value, or you approximate to an accuracy that is "good enough" for your purposes.
What's the halachic source for our current way of determining the date for the prayer for rain?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 18:41
1
@Chaim the Talmud in the first chapter of Taanit says to start 60 days after the equinox. The equinox is calculated using the approximation detailed above and at judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12674/759 . Were it not for approximating we'd start around November 22 but over the centuries we've drifted all of about two weeks. Not such a big deal.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 18:52
So this method of calculating the equinox is described in Ta'anis?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 22:30
@chaim shmuel's tekufa is described in Eruvin 56a
– Double AA♦
Jan 3 at 0:07
add a comment |
The rules try to keep the date for requesting rain in the late fall. They are not perfect. No rule would be except adding the ever-changing long decimal tropical year length.
If we were to take a simple rule and start requesting rain always 365 days after the previous time, we'd end up shifting a day earlier every four years.
If we were to do that, but every four years add back one day to compensate, we'd end up shifting a day later about every 130 years.
If we were to do that, but three times every four hundred years drop out one day each to compensate, we'd still end up off a day every ~3200 years.
Method 2 is what we use for simplicity because it's good enough. Method 3 is what modern calendars use (by way of including February 29 sometimes). That's why 3 times every 400 years (specifically, in whole century years not divisible by 400) our date shifts relative to modern calendars.
But everyone really is just approximating since the tropical year isn't a rational number of days long. Either you use the precise astronomically calculated decimal value, or you approximate to an accuracy that is "good enough" for your purposes.
The rules try to keep the date for requesting rain in the late fall. They are not perfect. No rule would be except adding the ever-changing long decimal tropical year length.
If we were to take a simple rule and start requesting rain always 365 days after the previous time, we'd end up shifting a day earlier every four years.
If we were to do that, but every four years add back one day to compensate, we'd end up shifting a day later about every 130 years.
If we were to do that, but three times every four hundred years drop out one day each to compensate, we'd still end up off a day every ~3200 years.
Method 2 is what we use for simplicity because it's good enough. Method 3 is what modern calendars use (by way of including February 29 sometimes). That's why 3 times every 400 years (specifically, in whole century years not divisible by 400) our date shifts relative to modern calendars.
But everyone really is just approximating since the tropical year isn't a rational number of days long. Either you use the precise astronomically calculated decimal value, or you approximate to an accuracy that is "good enough" for your purposes.
answered Jan 2 at 15:44
Double AA♦Double AA
77.9k6187401
77.9k6187401
What's the halachic source for our current way of determining the date for the prayer for rain?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 18:41
1
@Chaim the Talmud in the first chapter of Taanit says to start 60 days after the equinox. The equinox is calculated using the approximation detailed above and at judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12674/759 . Were it not for approximating we'd start around November 22 but over the centuries we've drifted all of about two weeks. Not such a big deal.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 18:52
So this method of calculating the equinox is described in Ta'anis?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 22:30
@chaim shmuel's tekufa is described in Eruvin 56a
– Double AA♦
Jan 3 at 0:07
add a comment |
What's the halachic source for our current way of determining the date for the prayer for rain?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 18:41
1
@Chaim the Talmud in the first chapter of Taanit says to start 60 days after the equinox. The equinox is calculated using the approximation detailed above and at judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12674/759 . Were it not for approximating we'd start around November 22 but over the centuries we've drifted all of about two weeks. Not such a big deal.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 18:52
So this method of calculating the equinox is described in Ta'anis?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 22:30
@chaim shmuel's tekufa is described in Eruvin 56a
– Double AA♦
Jan 3 at 0:07
What's the halachic source for our current way of determining the date for the prayer for rain?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 18:41
What's the halachic source for our current way of determining the date for the prayer for rain?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 18:41
1
1
@Chaim the Talmud in the first chapter of Taanit says to start 60 days after the equinox. The equinox is calculated using the approximation detailed above and at judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12674/759 . Were it not for approximating we'd start around November 22 but over the centuries we've drifted all of about two weeks. Not such a big deal.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 18:52
@Chaim the Talmud in the first chapter of Taanit says to start 60 days after the equinox. The equinox is calculated using the approximation detailed above and at judaism.stackexchange.com/q/12674/759 . Were it not for approximating we'd start around November 22 but over the centuries we've drifted all of about two weeks. Not such a big deal.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 18:52
So this method of calculating the equinox is described in Ta'anis?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 22:30
So this method of calculating the equinox is described in Ta'anis?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 22:30
@chaim shmuel's tekufa is described in Eruvin 56a
– Double AA♦
Jan 3 at 0:07
@chaim shmuel's tekufa is described in Eruvin 56a
– Double AA♦
Jan 3 at 0:07
add a comment |
Because the prayer for rain is moving - it is calculated using (the somewhat inaccurate) tekufat shmuel
– Joel K
Jan 2 at 14:56
@Joel K So we're committed to a system that will sooner or later have us praying for rain in every season?
– Chaim
Jan 2 at 14:57
@Chaim the system also will sooner or later have Pesach be on every season. No system is perfect. Ours is good enough.
– Double AA♦
Jan 2 at 15:02
Since the edit, this question becomes relevant (but not a dupe).
– DonielF
Jan 2 at 15:12