Drawing loops on a sheet of paper

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Two people are playing a game, in which each player takes turns drawing closed loops on a sheet of paper. Each new loop must intersect each of the other loops exactly twice. When one player has no moves available, the other player wins.



Is it possible for any of the players to ever win? If yes, how? If not, prove that it is impossible.










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  • Are the loops circles? Or any closed shape?
    – Dr Xorile
    Dec 10 at 3:14










  • Any closed shape.
    – Stefan
    Dec 10 at 3:37














up vote
4
down vote

favorite












Two people are playing a game, in which each player takes turns drawing closed loops on a sheet of paper. Each new loop must intersect each of the other loops exactly twice. When one player has no moves available, the other player wins.



Is it possible for any of the players to ever win? If yes, how? If not, prove that it is impossible.










share|improve this question























  • Are the loops circles? Or any closed shape?
    – Dr Xorile
    Dec 10 at 3:14










  • Any closed shape.
    – Stefan
    Dec 10 at 3:37












up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











Two people are playing a game, in which each player takes turns drawing closed loops on a sheet of paper. Each new loop must intersect each of the other loops exactly twice. When one player has no moves available, the other player wins.



Is it possible for any of the players to ever win? If yes, how? If not, prove that it is impossible.










share|improve this question















Two people are playing a game, in which each player takes turns drawing closed loops on a sheet of paper. Each new loop must intersect each of the other loops exactly twice. When one player has no moves available, the other player wins.



Is it possible for any of the players to ever win? If yes, how? If not, prove that it is impossible.







game






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edited Dec 10 at 0:43









rhsquared

7,33321643




7,33321643










asked Dec 9 at 23:12









Stefan

4446




4446











  • Are the loops circles? Or any closed shape?
    – Dr Xorile
    Dec 10 at 3:14










  • Any closed shape.
    – Stefan
    Dec 10 at 3:37
















  • Are the loops circles? Or any closed shape?
    – Dr Xorile
    Dec 10 at 3:14










  • Any closed shape.
    – Stefan
    Dec 10 at 3:37















Are the loops circles? Or any closed shape?
– Dr Xorile
Dec 10 at 3:14




Are the loops circles? Or any closed shape?
– Dr Xorile
Dec 10 at 3:14












Any closed shape.
– Stefan
Dec 10 at 3:37




Any closed shape.
– Stefan
Dec 10 at 3:37










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote



accepted











In theory, neither side can win.




This is because




Each player can follow a strategy of drawing a loop that follows parallel and close to the last loop drawn. The last loop goes through each other loop twice, so if you follow it closely enough your line will do so also. Then just make it switch over twice as you're following it around.







share|improve this answer



























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    When I read this question, I interpreted "loops" more broadly than seems to have been intended, allowing for the possibility that a loop might cross itself. With this possibility in hand, the argument in Dr Xorile's answer no longer works because




    if a loop has N self-intersections then a tiny displacement of that loop must cross the original at least 2N times.




    In this broader setting, the answer is




    still that the game can never finish




    and here is one way to see it:




    note first of all that any loop divides the plane into regions that can be coloured with two colours, say red and blue, with no two like-coloured regions adjoining. Now take a look at that last loop (call it L) and consider its relations with earlier loops. As you walk around an earlier loop, every time it crosses from one L-region to another it meets L, so it can only do that twice, so it can only pass through two of the L-regions. And since any two of those earlier loops meet, there must be an L-region they both pass through. I claim that in fact there is a single L-region through which all earlier loops pass. Suppose that's not so, and consider two earlier loops M,N. They meet in, say, region A; perhaps M goes through another region B and perhaps N goes through another region C. Now consider any other loop O. It has to meet either A or B, and it has to meet either A or C. If it doesn't meet A then it must meet both B and C. But this is impossible, because when we do the colouring described earlier B and C have the same colour (whatever colour A isn't), and you therefore can't get from B to C and back to B without crossing L more than twice. So in fact any other loop has to meet region A, and we have found a region through which all loops before L pass. And now we're done, because we can take a loop that goes around the inside boundary of that region very very close to L, which necessarily intersects each earlier loop just twice and L not at all, and then we can perturb it a little to get two intersections with L.







    share|improve this answer



























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      My answer is:




      Yes




      Assuming that:




      Dr Xorile's explanation is correct, however the paper is of finite size and the drawn line is of finite width. If so, then eventually Dr Xorile's method will break down when the parallel loops approach the edge of the paper and/or completely fill the paper. Meaning that one player will not be able to draw anymore lines and therefore lose.







      share|improve this answer




















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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes








        up vote
        3
        down vote



        accepted











        In theory, neither side can win.




        This is because




        Each player can follow a strategy of drawing a loop that follows parallel and close to the last loop drawn. The last loop goes through each other loop twice, so if you follow it closely enough your line will do so also. Then just make it switch over twice as you're following it around.







        share|improve this answer
























          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted











          In theory, neither side can win.




          This is because




          Each player can follow a strategy of drawing a loop that follows parallel and close to the last loop drawn. The last loop goes through each other loop twice, so if you follow it closely enough your line will do so also. Then just make it switch over twice as you're following it around.







          share|improve this answer






















            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted







            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted







            In theory, neither side can win.




            This is because




            Each player can follow a strategy of drawing a loop that follows parallel and close to the last loop drawn. The last loop goes through each other loop twice, so if you follow it closely enough your line will do so also. Then just make it switch over twice as you're following it around.







            share|improve this answer













            In theory, neither side can win.




            This is because




            Each player can follow a strategy of drawing a loop that follows parallel and close to the last loop drawn. The last loop goes through each other loop twice, so if you follow it closely enough your line will do so also. Then just make it switch over twice as you're following it around.








            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Dec 10 at 4:11









            Dr Xorile

            11.3k12363




            11.3k12363




















                up vote
                2
                down vote













                When I read this question, I interpreted "loops" more broadly than seems to have been intended, allowing for the possibility that a loop might cross itself. With this possibility in hand, the argument in Dr Xorile's answer no longer works because




                if a loop has N self-intersections then a tiny displacement of that loop must cross the original at least 2N times.




                In this broader setting, the answer is




                still that the game can never finish




                and here is one way to see it:




                note first of all that any loop divides the plane into regions that can be coloured with two colours, say red and blue, with no two like-coloured regions adjoining. Now take a look at that last loop (call it L) and consider its relations with earlier loops. As you walk around an earlier loop, every time it crosses from one L-region to another it meets L, so it can only do that twice, so it can only pass through two of the L-regions. And since any two of those earlier loops meet, there must be an L-region they both pass through. I claim that in fact there is a single L-region through which all earlier loops pass. Suppose that's not so, and consider two earlier loops M,N. They meet in, say, region A; perhaps M goes through another region B and perhaps N goes through another region C. Now consider any other loop O. It has to meet either A or B, and it has to meet either A or C. If it doesn't meet A then it must meet both B and C. But this is impossible, because when we do the colouring described earlier B and C have the same colour (whatever colour A isn't), and you therefore can't get from B to C and back to B without crossing L more than twice. So in fact any other loop has to meet region A, and we have found a region through which all loops before L pass. And now we're done, because we can take a loop that goes around the inside boundary of that region very very close to L, which necessarily intersects each earlier loop just twice and L not at all, and then we can perturb it a little to get two intersections with L.







                share|improve this answer
























                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote













                  When I read this question, I interpreted "loops" more broadly than seems to have been intended, allowing for the possibility that a loop might cross itself. With this possibility in hand, the argument in Dr Xorile's answer no longer works because




                  if a loop has N self-intersections then a tiny displacement of that loop must cross the original at least 2N times.




                  In this broader setting, the answer is




                  still that the game can never finish




                  and here is one way to see it:




                  note first of all that any loop divides the plane into regions that can be coloured with two colours, say red and blue, with no two like-coloured regions adjoining. Now take a look at that last loop (call it L) and consider its relations with earlier loops. As you walk around an earlier loop, every time it crosses from one L-region to another it meets L, so it can only do that twice, so it can only pass through two of the L-regions. And since any two of those earlier loops meet, there must be an L-region they both pass through. I claim that in fact there is a single L-region through which all earlier loops pass. Suppose that's not so, and consider two earlier loops M,N. They meet in, say, region A; perhaps M goes through another region B and perhaps N goes through another region C. Now consider any other loop O. It has to meet either A or B, and it has to meet either A or C. If it doesn't meet A then it must meet both B and C. But this is impossible, because when we do the colouring described earlier B and C have the same colour (whatever colour A isn't), and you therefore can't get from B to C and back to B without crossing L more than twice. So in fact any other loop has to meet region A, and we have found a region through which all loops before L pass. And now we're done, because we can take a loop that goes around the inside boundary of that region very very close to L, which necessarily intersects each earlier loop just twice and L not at all, and then we can perturb it a little to get two intersections with L.







                  share|improve this answer






















                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote









                    When I read this question, I interpreted "loops" more broadly than seems to have been intended, allowing for the possibility that a loop might cross itself. With this possibility in hand, the argument in Dr Xorile's answer no longer works because




                    if a loop has N self-intersections then a tiny displacement of that loop must cross the original at least 2N times.




                    In this broader setting, the answer is




                    still that the game can never finish




                    and here is one way to see it:




                    note first of all that any loop divides the plane into regions that can be coloured with two colours, say red and blue, with no two like-coloured regions adjoining. Now take a look at that last loop (call it L) and consider its relations with earlier loops. As you walk around an earlier loop, every time it crosses from one L-region to another it meets L, so it can only do that twice, so it can only pass through two of the L-regions. And since any two of those earlier loops meet, there must be an L-region they both pass through. I claim that in fact there is a single L-region through which all earlier loops pass. Suppose that's not so, and consider two earlier loops M,N. They meet in, say, region A; perhaps M goes through another region B and perhaps N goes through another region C. Now consider any other loop O. It has to meet either A or B, and it has to meet either A or C. If it doesn't meet A then it must meet both B and C. But this is impossible, because when we do the colouring described earlier B and C have the same colour (whatever colour A isn't), and you therefore can't get from B to C and back to B without crossing L more than twice. So in fact any other loop has to meet region A, and we have found a region through which all loops before L pass. And now we're done, because we can take a loop that goes around the inside boundary of that region very very close to L, which necessarily intersects each earlier loop just twice and L not at all, and then we can perturb it a little to get two intersections with L.







                    share|improve this answer












                    When I read this question, I interpreted "loops" more broadly than seems to have been intended, allowing for the possibility that a loop might cross itself. With this possibility in hand, the argument in Dr Xorile's answer no longer works because




                    if a loop has N self-intersections then a tiny displacement of that loop must cross the original at least 2N times.




                    In this broader setting, the answer is




                    still that the game can never finish




                    and here is one way to see it:




                    note first of all that any loop divides the plane into regions that can be coloured with two colours, say red and blue, with no two like-coloured regions adjoining. Now take a look at that last loop (call it L) and consider its relations with earlier loops. As you walk around an earlier loop, every time it crosses from one L-region to another it meets L, so it can only do that twice, so it can only pass through two of the L-regions. And since any two of those earlier loops meet, there must be an L-region they both pass through. I claim that in fact there is a single L-region through which all earlier loops pass. Suppose that's not so, and consider two earlier loops M,N. They meet in, say, region A; perhaps M goes through another region B and perhaps N goes through another region C. Now consider any other loop O. It has to meet either A or B, and it has to meet either A or C. If it doesn't meet A then it must meet both B and C. But this is impossible, because when we do the colouring described earlier B and C have the same colour (whatever colour A isn't), and you therefore can't get from B to C and back to B without crossing L more than twice. So in fact any other loop has to meet region A, and we have found a region through which all loops before L pass. And now we're done, because we can take a loop that goes around the inside boundary of that region very very close to L, which necessarily intersects each earlier loop just twice and L not at all, and then we can perturb it a little to get two intersections with L.








                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered Dec 10 at 20:05









                    Gareth McCaughan

                    60.1k3150233




                    60.1k3150233




















                        up vote
                        1
                        down vote













                        My answer is:




                        Yes




                        Assuming that:




                        Dr Xorile's explanation is correct, however the paper is of finite size and the drawn line is of finite width. If so, then eventually Dr Xorile's method will break down when the parallel loops approach the edge of the paper and/or completely fill the paper. Meaning that one player will not be able to draw anymore lines and therefore lose.







                        share|improve this answer
























                          up vote
                          1
                          down vote













                          My answer is:




                          Yes




                          Assuming that:




                          Dr Xorile's explanation is correct, however the paper is of finite size and the drawn line is of finite width. If so, then eventually Dr Xorile's method will break down when the parallel loops approach the edge of the paper and/or completely fill the paper. Meaning that one player will not be able to draw anymore lines and therefore lose.







                          share|improve this answer






















                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote









                            My answer is:




                            Yes




                            Assuming that:




                            Dr Xorile's explanation is correct, however the paper is of finite size and the drawn line is of finite width. If so, then eventually Dr Xorile's method will break down when the parallel loops approach the edge of the paper and/or completely fill the paper. Meaning that one player will not be able to draw anymore lines and therefore lose.







                            share|improve this answer












                            My answer is:




                            Yes




                            Assuming that:




                            Dr Xorile's explanation is correct, however the paper is of finite size and the drawn line is of finite width. If so, then eventually Dr Xorile's method will break down when the parallel loops approach the edge of the paper and/or completely fill the paper. Meaning that one player will not be able to draw anymore lines and therefore lose.








                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered Dec 10 at 10:10









                            AHKieran

                            4,176737




                            4,176737



























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