Making a job offer to a candidate while privately advising them to decline
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I work at a small technology company (12 employees). This past summer I managed a bright, talented intern (a rising college senior) who did great work.
My boss (the CEO) and others in the company want us to make a full-time offer to this intern, and by all reasonable assessment she absolutely deserves the offer. Because I was her manager the task of discussing the offer and working out the details has fallen to me (we don't have a "real" HR department to coordinate hiring).
Problem is, the company is very dysfunctional, and I strongly believe that even if it survives until her graduation, it'll be on a clear path to failure. I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
I feel terrible extending the offer and having to convince her to join a company when in my heart I think it would be a terrible career move for someone's first job after graduation. That said, she earned the offer and I wouldn't feel right to stomp it out internally without letting her make the choice.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
internship hiring
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I work at a small technology company (12 employees). This past summer I managed a bright, talented intern (a rising college senior) who did great work.
My boss (the CEO) and others in the company want us to make a full-time offer to this intern, and by all reasonable assessment she absolutely deserves the offer. Because I was her manager the task of discussing the offer and working out the details has fallen to me (we don't have a "real" HR department to coordinate hiring).
Problem is, the company is very dysfunctional, and I strongly believe that even if it survives until her graduation, it'll be on a clear path to failure. I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
I feel terrible extending the offer and having to convince her to join a company when in my heart I think it would be a terrible career move for someone's first job after graduation. That said, she earned the offer and I wouldn't feel right to stomp it out internally without letting her make the choice.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
internship hiring
New contributor
33
It's one thing hiding corporate dysfunction during an interview. Regardless of legalities and ethics, however, she surely must have obtained some insight as an intern.
– Laconic Droid
yesterday
17
If this other (nightmare) Manager is going to be managing her, would it not be prudent for the intern to meet with them first, before deciding whether or not to accept the offer? If it were me, I would certainly want to meet my prospective new Manager first, to get a feel for what to expect and how good the 'personality fit' would be. Because, the relationship with your direct Manager is so important.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
12
There's are two real problems with telling the candidate. Firstly they may not respect the absolute confidentiality of that information. Secondly they may think the OP is trying to put them off to e.g. get the position for a friend. The OP needs to be ready for potential big problems with doing this. It's the ethical thing to do, but it won't necessarily look that way to the candidate (and the OP's employer - or next employer (!) if word gets back to them).
– StephenG
yesterday
4
I'd be careful about any prognosis about a company's future unless you know its financials are so dire it has to shutdown in a few months for sure. Even that can change. I've heard people say similar things about companies that went on to stay in business and prosper for years to come. Sometimes people that feel miserable (or totally happy) in their position also over-estimate the problems / good work they see and that impact on the company as a whole. Not saying you are definitely wrong, but it's hard to be right with such things.
– Darkwing
yesterday
12
@LaconicDroid not necessarily, many young unexperienced people don't realize those warning signs.
– mathreadler
22 hours ago
|
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up vote
140
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up vote
140
down vote
favorite
I work at a small technology company (12 employees). This past summer I managed a bright, talented intern (a rising college senior) who did great work.
My boss (the CEO) and others in the company want us to make a full-time offer to this intern, and by all reasonable assessment she absolutely deserves the offer. Because I was her manager the task of discussing the offer and working out the details has fallen to me (we don't have a "real" HR department to coordinate hiring).
Problem is, the company is very dysfunctional, and I strongly believe that even if it survives until her graduation, it'll be on a clear path to failure. I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
I feel terrible extending the offer and having to convince her to join a company when in my heart I think it would be a terrible career move for someone's first job after graduation. That said, she earned the offer and I wouldn't feel right to stomp it out internally without letting her make the choice.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
internship hiring
New contributor
I work at a small technology company (12 employees). This past summer I managed a bright, talented intern (a rising college senior) who did great work.
My boss (the CEO) and others in the company want us to make a full-time offer to this intern, and by all reasonable assessment she absolutely deserves the offer. Because I was her manager the task of discussing the offer and working out the details has fallen to me (we don't have a "real" HR department to coordinate hiring).
Problem is, the company is very dysfunctional, and I strongly believe that even if it survives until her graduation, it'll be on a clear path to failure. I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
I feel terrible extending the offer and having to convince her to join a company when in my heart I think it would be a terrible career move for someone's first job after graduation. That said, she earned the offer and I wouldn't feel right to stomp it out internally without letting her make the choice.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
internship hiring
internship hiring
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33
It's one thing hiding corporate dysfunction during an interview. Regardless of legalities and ethics, however, she surely must have obtained some insight as an intern.
– Laconic Droid
yesterday
17
If this other (nightmare) Manager is going to be managing her, would it not be prudent for the intern to meet with them first, before deciding whether or not to accept the offer? If it were me, I would certainly want to meet my prospective new Manager first, to get a feel for what to expect and how good the 'personality fit' would be. Because, the relationship with your direct Manager is so important.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
12
There's are two real problems with telling the candidate. Firstly they may not respect the absolute confidentiality of that information. Secondly they may think the OP is trying to put them off to e.g. get the position for a friend. The OP needs to be ready for potential big problems with doing this. It's the ethical thing to do, but it won't necessarily look that way to the candidate (and the OP's employer - or next employer (!) if word gets back to them).
– StephenG
yesterday
4
I'd be careful about any prognosis about a company's future unless you know its financials are so dire it has to shutdown in a few months for sure. Even that can change. I've heard people say similar things about companies that went on to stay in business and prosper for years to come. Sometimes people that feel miserable (or totally happy) in their position also over-estimate the problems / good work they see and that impact on the company as a whole. Not saying you are definitely wrong, but it's hard to be right with such things.
– Darkwing
yesterday
12
@LaconicDroid not necessarily, many young unexperienced people don't realize those warning signs.
– mathreadler
22 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
33
It's one thing hiding corporate dysfunction during an interview. Regardless of legalities and ethics, however, she surely must have obtained some insight as an intern.
– Laconic Droid
yesterday
17
If this other (nightmare) Manager is going to be managing her, would it not be prudent for the intern to meet with them first, before deciding whether or not to accept the offer? If it were me, I would certainly want to meet my prospective new Manager first, to get a feel for what to expect and how good the 'personality fit' would be. Because, the relationship with your direct Manager is so important.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
12
There's are two real problems with telling the candidate. Firstly they may not respect the absolute confidentiality of that information. Secondly they may think the OP is trying to put them off to e.g. get the position for a friend. The OP needs to be ready for potential big problems with doing this. It's the ethical thing to do, but it won't necessarily look that way to the candidate (and the OP's employer - or next employer (!) if word gets back to them).
– StephenG
yesterday
4
I'd be careful about any prognosis about a company's future unless you know its financials are so dire it has to shutdown in a few months for sure. Even that can change. I've heard people say similar things about companies that went on to stay in business and prosper for years to come. Sometimes people that feel miserable (or totally happy) in their position also over-estimate the problems / good work they see and that impact on the company as a whole. Not saying you are definitely wrong, but it's hard to be right with such things.
– Darkwing
yesterday
12
@LaconicDroid not necessarily, many young unexperienced people don't realize those warning signs.
– mathreadler
22 hours ago
33
33
It's one thing hiding corporate dysfunction during an interview. Regardless of legalities and ethics, however, she surely must have obtained some insight as an intern.
– Laconic Droid
yesterday
It's one thing hiding corporate dysfunction during an interview. Regardless of legalities and ethics, however, she surely must have obtained some insight as an intern.
– Laconic Droid
yesterday
17
17
If this other (nightmare) Manager is going to be managing her, would it not be prudent for the intern to meet with them first, before deciding whether or not to accept the offer? If it were me, I would certainly want to meet my prospective new Manager first, to get a feel for what to expect and how good the 'personality fit' would be. Because, the relationship with your direct Manager is so important.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
If this other (nightmare) Manager is going to be managing her, would it not be prudent for the intern to meet with them first, before deciding whether or not to accept the offer? If it were me, I would certainly want to meet my prospective new Manager first, to get a feel for what to expect and how good the 'personality fit' would be. Because, the relationship with your direct Manager is so important.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
12
12
There's are two real problems with telling the candidate. Firstly they may not respect the absolute confidentiality of that information. Secondly they may think the OP is trying to put them off to e.g. get the position for a friend. The OP needs to be ready for potential big problems with doing this. It's the ethical thing to do, but it won't necessarily look that way to the candidate (and the OP's employer - or next employer (!) if word gets back to them).
– StephenG
yesterday
There's are two real problems with telling the candidate. Firstly they may not respect the absolute confidentiality of that information. Secondly they may think the OP is trying to put them off to e.g. get the position for a friend. The OP needs to be ready for potential big problems with doing this. It's the ethical thing to do, but it won't necessarily look that way to the candidate (and the OP's employer - or next employer (!) if word gets back to them).
– StephenG
yesterday
4
4
I'd be careful about any prognosis about a company's future unless you know its financials are so dire it has to shutdown in a few months for sure. Even that can change. I've heard people say similar things about companies that went on to stay in business and prosper for years to come. Sometimes people that feel miserable (or totally happy) in their position also over-estimate the problems / good work they see and that impact on the company as a whole. Not saying you are definitely wrong, but it's hard to be right with such things.
– Darkwing
yesterday
I'd be careful about any prognosis about a company's future unless you know its financials are so dire it has to shutdown in a few months for sure. Even that can change. I've heard people say similar things about companies that went on to stay in business and prosper for years to come. Sometimes people that feel miserable (or totally happy) in their position also over-estimate the problems / good work they see and that impact on the company as a whole. Not saying you are definitely wrong, but it's hard to be right with such things.
– Darkwing
yesterday
12
12
@LaconicDroid not necessarily, many young unexperienced people don't realize those warning signs.
– mathreadler
22 hours ago
@LaconicDroid not necessarily, many young unexperienced people don't realize those warning signs.
– mathreadler
22 hours ago
|
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14 Answers
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Meet her for a coffee. (If you're a guy, mention that it's to talk about her career and meet her in a totally non-romantic setting, otherwise she might get scared you are interested in her romantically).
During a 1:1 conversation there are plenty of ways you can say something without saying anything that could cost you your job:
- ask her about her plans - when she says she's applying, stress that you will be happy to provide references
- mention that a job in your company is also an option, that you were happy with her, but imply that many changes are coming... The culture is something that not everybody likes and her new boss has a management style very different to yours.
- stress that she should think it over and that you won't take offense if she rejects the offer.
It's a lot about your tone.
You shouldn't say too much but if she's smart she will understand.
Referring to the previous answer: yes, you need to stay loyal to your company. But if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways. So it is in the interest of the company for you to let her know what she can expect.
8
I agree with this. Seeing as you managed her as an intern, I don't think there would be much harm in meeting her for a coffee informally and discussing some of the wider issues that are going on in the company, so that she can be more aware and make an informed decision about whether or not to accept the offer.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
5
I almost agree. Blind loyalty is no virtue. If the reality is that the intern would be managed by an abusive "nightmare" were she to accept, OP would push her towards that outcome if they withheld that information. Out of respect for their intern, OP should be open with any objective information that would influence her decision (that doesn't also break NDA or existing legal contracts).
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
25
In particular, I think it is wrong to assume that "if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways." There are many reasons people stay in jobs they hate: the expenses involved in relocating, the uncertainty in finding a new job (especially early in one's career and without a recommendation from the former employer), their financial dependence on their continued employment, and even outright blackmail on the part of an abusive boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
2
Good point Alex. I'd add to this advice to make it very clear that she's getting a good recommendation from the OP no matter what she chooses to do.
– George M
yesterday
4
Mentioning that a meeting invitation is "to talk about her career" is not likely to dispel fears of sexual harassment. On the contrary, it could be a red flag.
– phoog
15 hours ago
|
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52
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Sounds to me like you don't owe this company any particular allegience -- the key to being ethical with this is separate your business responsibilities from your personal obligation not to harm this person.
Send the intern the offer from your corporate email with no comment on its desirability one way or the other.
Then phone the intern/meet in person on your own time and give her your thoughts on the company as an impartial human being.
She is then free to make up her own mind about what to do.
5
i don't think the OP can be an "impartial human being". this is really about the relative value of loyalty to evidently a bad employer (who is still paying the OP's paycheck and deserves some measure of consideration for that) and the sense of responsibility to not harm this potential employee. this is a sorta sticky wicket.
– robert bristow-johnson
yesterday
The problem with this is her position at the company requires her to convince this qualified candidate to work for them. To run contrary to that on her "personal time" is problematic ethically and perhaps even legally. Bad employer or not, to actively sabotage their hiring of a future employee is a bad idea. Be honest about work conditions, but do not spin it in a way that clearly communicates "you should not work here." If she doesn't feel comfortable making the offer, she should get someone else to do it.
– BlackThorn
14 hours ago
1
@BlackThorn OP has the responsibility to help hire a good fit for the position. This usually doesn't include hiring someone who's going to hate the job and leave ASAP. Someone who reports to the CEO should have a lot of flexibility.
– David Thornley
12 hours ago
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up vote
44
down vote
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to
decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I
should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
Your boss told you to make the offer, and you acknowledge that she deserves the offer. Thus, you have to do it.
If she asks you about the offer or company, you can carefully disclose some of your feelings while still making it clear that this is solely her decision to make. And you can offer to be a great reference for her if this offer isn't what she is looking for.
Remember, she may not share your feelings about the company and manager. And while it's not what you want, it may still be what she wants.
9
+1 - fulfill your duties to your employer by extending the offer; fulfill your moral obligations to your intern by warning her about a nightmare boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
3
+1 that she might decide it's a good fit for her, so let her decide for herself. And who knows, the company might not go under. She could miss a great opportunity by not taking the offer. Not saying this is the case, but it's worth letting her decide for herself.
– bob
yesterday
1
Yep, important thing here is that she has the information to make an informed decision. Minor nitpick, "if she asks". Personally I would feel it my responsibility to share. She doesn't know what you know and may not feel the need to ask/be skeptical.
– aw04
16 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
Advice could be problematic; informed consent is not. Present her with the offer, as well as the relevant information that she needs to make an informed decision. The offer is not only for a position with a particular compensation package, it is for an employment relationship with the company. Like any relationship, there are not only benefits, but liabilities and responsibilities. She needs to be made aware of the reasons that underlie your desire to recommend against taking the position, and then leave her to make her own decision. As part of this, highlight things that she may otherwise overlook, such as the fact that in her role as an intern, she has been insulated from some of the less palatable aspects of working there, as well as the fact that her work experience and her exemplary performance would qualify her to work at any number of other employers, and that it’s always wise to assess multiple offers rather than accepting the first opportunity that presents itself. Also stress that you’d be happy to serve as a reference not only for this role, but for any role outside of the company.
Once you have laid all of your cards on the table, the decision to accept or reject the offer will truly be her decision, which she will be able to make with eyes wide open. She may choose to take the job and regret it. But if she does, it will be her choice and her learning experience. Unless you give her the relevant information, you’re depriving her of that opportunity to decide for herself. I appreciate your desire to go to bat for her. You just need to do so in a way that is equitable for all parties concerned. As long as you stick to the facts, you should be fine.
New contributor
7
+1. I think the key thing is to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. It's not in the interest of the company either, if she joins and then quits after 2 months, because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
+1. But people give positive "you should come here" style advice all the time. I don't think it's out of line to give advice that would save someone from months or years of abuse from a "nightmare" manager.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
@AlexReinking, there's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years if it isn't mutually beneficial. if the person in question is a third party, then I agree, giving advice is fine. However, as a representative of the company, you have an obligation to represent the interests of the company. Giving someone the information that they need to make a decision for themselves does a good job of balancing those interests. If someone was moving across the country for the job, I would agree that taking a more proactively cautionary tone would be advisable.
– S. Hooley
yesterday
"There's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years" except for an abusive boss who might threaten to blacklist them should they leave, the great expenses (both social and financial) involved in relocating, the difficulty in finding a new job (depending on the industry), etc. The only obligations to one's employer are those drawn out in contract, typically in the US, that's just the labor they were hired to do.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
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21
down vote
One major reason not to do this is: what if she accepts the offer, despite your warnings?
You are now in a very awkward position: your junior is now in a position to blackmail you. This is especially important as you are considering jumping ship: your reputation capital gained at your current firm is at its most valuable.
Regardless of whether the moral thing to do is telling the excellent former intern that your company is toxic and destined for the corporate dustbin, you are now putting your own career in jeopardy.
A missed opportunity is a relatively minor thing early on in your career. Later on, being seen to act against your employer's interests and in a matter that is entirely work related... well, that's a line on your CV that you don't want.
Attorneys are qualified to give moral, legal and financial advice. Those are good headings under which to analyse this decision.
Morally - telling her the lay of the land is absolutely the correct thing to do. (Companies' personalities are a legal fiction and you owe them no moral loyalty - pay them no heed when considering right and wrong.)
Legally - regardless of whether or not you are doing the company legal damage (and you probably are - tortious interference is the first thing that comes to mind), if your current company were to sue you on any grounds, it wouldn't be hard for a good attorney to find some pretext to introduce this situation into evidence to (correctly) portray you as disloyal. (This is particularly bad if you are in a jurisdiction where a jury is the trier of fact in civil cases.) So, while nothing will probably come of this, legally, you're doing yourself no favours at all by telling the intern how things are.
Financially, there's no upside. Only potential downside. Grim as it is, your intern is a nobody and gaining her favour and gratitude gives you nothing tangible. (The keys to the Kingdom of Heaven don't figure on any balance sheets.)
So, no attorney could tell you it was in your best interest to do this. Probably, you'd get away with it, and nothing would happen, other than you would get a warm glow from having gained the gratitude of the former intern. However, if this whole thing went wrong, it would probably go wrong very badly for you.
To repeat: only downside.
It's your life you're talking about, more than hers, and prudence and discretion should be your watchwords.
By telling the intern how things are you aren't just being honest: you're asking her for her confidence, and that is by no means a given. A particularly mercenary and ambitious personality might even smell an opportunity in your indiscretion.
I can completely understand how someone might nevertheless want to go ahead and warn the intern despite this advice; however, doing so is not the sensible and considered thing to do.
New contributor
8
There is some value to building relationships in an industry. And also more generally if you behave like you describe all of the time, you'll develop a reputation as a cold, calculating sociopath.
– Brian Gordon
15 hours ago
@BrianGordon I'm not advocating any general approach to life so I'm not really sure what you're on about: my answer is situation-specific and I'm only answering the question asked. There are real risks for OP in telling the intern that they should be aware of when making this decision. Do you really think OP is better off not considering them?
– tmgr
15 hours ago
1
Agree it's always good to consider the worst case scenario. I do think, however, it's not such a binary thing. There's a middle ground here where you can give the intern useful information to help make her decision without necessarily advising her to decline the offer or doing anything to lead to some of the more extreme outcomes.
– aw04
10 hours ago
1
@aw04 I agree with you! There are surely ways one could go about this. However, the question asked is: Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this? And that's what I've attempted to answer, without telling OP how to go about telling the intern or how much to tell her... because that's not what the question was. (Having said that, deliberately thwarting the company in its attempt to hire the intern is reasonable grounds for dismissal, and howsoever OP does it only really relates to their chances of getting caught.)
– tmgr
6 hours ago
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9
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If this other Manager is as bad as you make them out to be, I recommend that you:
- Make sure she is aware that this other Manager is going to be managing her and that their style may be different to yours.
- Try to arrange for her to meet with this other Manager in person, before deciding whether to accept.
If she meets with the other Manager, then it may help her to get a better feel for what they are like, and whether they are someone that she can work with. If it was me, I would definitely want to meet with a prospective new Manager first, to make sure the 'personality fit' is right, because the relationship you have with your direct Manager is so important.
Otherwise, I agree with the other answers that recommend meeting her informally to discuss the situation. Don't advise her not to take it, but try to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. The decision has to be hers. Even if that other Manager is difficult to work with, she might decide it would be good to work there for 6 months to a year, just to get their name on her resume, which is fair enough.
Helping her to make an informed decision is not, in my opinion, contrary to the interests of the company. It would not be in the interests of the company, if she leaves after 2 months because she didn't realize what she was getting herself into.
6
Having her meet with her potential manager is a great idea. I would expect this to be part of the process anyway. But if it's not, take it upon yourself to make it happen.
– Joe Strazzere
yesterday
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2
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I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
Only you know the extent of this would-be manager's abusiveness, but given that you deliberately shielded your intern from him, my instincts suggest he is quite bad indeed.
If giving her direct advice to reject the offer would spare her months or even years of abuse and would not constitute a worse roadblock in her career (perhaps offer her your recommendation to another job), then it is the company's problem that they keep so toxic a person in their employ. It might even save the company a lawsuit down the line, depending again on the manager's misbehavior.
Do, then, what the other answers suggest: give her the offer as is required by your job duties, and then (on your own time) give her all the objective, legal-to-divulge information she would need to make an informed decision. In particular, it sounds like you will need to tell her about this manager since she doesn't have any information about him already.
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2
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Your only responsibility is to make sure she gets enough information to make an informed decision.
We are talking here about a person who has already worked an internship at your company. She didn't work for Manager X but it's a 12-person company, I find it hard to believe that she knows nothing about him. At the maximum, try to broker a meeting between her and her prospective new manager prior to the offer.
You need to realize that
You may be burned out and being overly bitter. Apparently a bunch of other folks work at the company and haven't fled screaming. You are likely projecting your own dissatisfaction about random "inside baseball" decisions on a new grad that just wants some good experience coding and a good-looking resume line item of working for a startup. There is nothing "ethical" about spreading your negativity to someone else.
Anything beyond openly discussing with the team that you think the role might not be a good fit for her is direct sabotage of your company. You seem to feel that no one should come work there because it's so bad. You should be looking for other opportunities instead of sabotaging them. As a hiring manager, if I found someone on my team had told a candidate "don't come here this company is dysfunctional," they would immediately be fired for cause.
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1
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You should not do this.
As long as you work for the company, your allegiance and responsibility is to the company and not a potential future employee. You are free to decide for yourself whether to stay or go, but you should not be trying to keep the intern from joining the company. From your own review, she is a potentially valuable employee for the company and you would be actively trying to harm the company.
While I can't speak to specific legal concerns, I would expect in any country that actively trying to damage the future of the company is a fire-able offense at a minimum.
36
This answers assumes that you somehow have an allegiance with your company outside the specific work you are hired to do. I don't think this is generally true. Both the company and the employee have to ensure that they are a good fit, you are asking the OP to lie about the fact that the company wont be a good fit for her. Given that we aren't in a capitalistic regime where the sole obligation is to money I'd do the right thing and just be honest about pros and cons and let her decide with full information. This is not actively harming the company, the company is harming itself by being awful.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
17
Is informing someone of all the pros and cons of a position REALLY against the companies interests, though? Doing so may prevent a situation where the person is hired on and leaves the company a week later, which would consume a lot of resources.
– CrazyPaste
yesterday
17
If you haven't noticed, companies have near 0 allegiance to their employees. Granted, they expect 100% loyalty from their employees, but very, very few show it to their employees. It's hard to buy into that one-way street.
– FreeMan
yesterday
14
@cdkMoose Absolutely wrong. Your moral responsibility to be honest and treat people well always trumps loyalty to your employer. To do otherwise marks someone as a horrible human being.
– Gabe Sechan
yesterday
5
@mxyzplk Instead of taking the feedback and fixing the problem. OK.
– Konrad Rudolph
22 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
I think the ethical thing would be to resign or at the very least ask somebody else to handle the hiring negotiations and process. You should not be in a position of trust while actively considering what is essentially sabotage, as much as I commend your protectiveness.
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think you should name names - either of the company or the manager.
If there is a way you can direct the intern to this thread, you could say something like "Of course interviews should work both ways so be aware of that. Have a look at this cautionary tale that I happened across."
I repeat, I am no expert but this is probably what I would do.
I don't think avoiding the company name makes any difference. In this situation, both OP and intern know exactly what company is being addressed (and I think this would be obvious to any judge). The potential manager's identity might or might not be deducible from context. With our limited information, we probably won't be able to tell what would be the case. On the other hand, pointing to this SE question seems to have some merit, +1 for the idea. This way, OP avoids giving a specific advice while still providing all information needed for the intern to form an opinion of her own.
– Inarion
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing; even if there isn't, this probably wouldn't look great for you to be doing.
That said, there is a difference between making an offer and recommending the offer, and that's in presentation. You could go into the meeting and say "hey, you got the offer! Good job! Here's the contents of the offer. I think it's really great because XYZ". You could also go into the meeting and say "We have decided to present you an offer. The contents of the offer are XYZ. Please let us know your decision." One statement of the offer obviously plays up the offer and makes it more attractive to take. The other one doesn't. (IANAL) You are probably obligated only to present the offer, but not to be energetic about it, so just don't.
5
"There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing." This is extremely location-specific advice. White-collar direct employment jobs typically have no employment contract in the U.S., for example.
– reirab
yesterday
@reirab I doubt anyone involved in the hiring process doesn't have a contract - in addition, that's just extra reason to be cautious, as with no contract, it can be terminated at the drop of a hat if they get found out to be doing something like this.
– UKMonkey
17 hours ago
@UKMonkey Your doubt would be unfounded in regards to the U.S. It's extremely common for people involved in the hiring process in the U.S. to not have a contract. Employment contracts are mostly only for blue-collar jobs and extremely high-level management in the U.S. The vast majority of people involved in hiring processes (myself included) don't work on contract. Of course, contractors always work on contract (by definition,) but they aren't employees of the company and are rarely involved in hiring processes.
– reirab
15 hours ago
@reirab thanks ... the US sounds like a scary place to work!
– UKMonkey
13 hours ago
@UKMonkey Not really. Companies have no incentive to fire employees who are actually doing their jobs well. Replacing employees is expensive. Especially so for most white-collar jobs.
– reirab
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
You know this is somehow wrong, and you're looking for a way to do it anyway.
Since you haven't marked one of the other answers as accepted, here's mine.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it
Write up the offer and print it out on company stationary.
As you said, she deserves it.
You can't actually advise her to decline it - you know that or you would have done it already.
You can do other things like work to eliminate any guilt she may feel about declining it. If that happens to nudge her in the direction of declining it, well... you already think that's best for her right?
Use the company email to inform her that [company] is so pleased with the job she did that [we] are prepared to discuss an offer. As her former supervisor it is your privilege to discuss be the person make the offer to her. Say that you'd like to do this off site so there is less pressure. (Seriously there's nothing more awkward than someone asking, "So, did you take it?" as you're walking to the parking lot)
Suggest some well-lit coffee shop (anything not a bar, residence or restaurant). Tell her you expect it to take 30 minutes, but you're available for questions immediately or over the next few days.
Explicitly say that she will receive a written job offer when you sit down with her (reinforces that you're meeting for business reasons).
Explain that she WILL NOT be expected to accept or decline the offer at the meeting.
(This expectation gives her time to think about the subtle things you will be saying and discuss those with a parent/friend/etc.)
When you sit down with her:
First explain that she did such a wonderful job for you that you would be available as a reference not just for this job, but for any other job she might have applied for recently or will apply for in the future.
Be clear that your offer to be a reference is valid regardless of whether she accepts this offer.
Second explain that she would be reporting to [the jerk], and not to you if she accepts. Mention that you won't have much interaction going forward (if this is appropriate).
Then you can explain that internships 'are a sheltered experience'. Accepting this job means that she will be a regular employee and have to deal with all the junk that you have to (smile while saying it).
Then you give her the written offer.
As you hand it to her, tell her she can take it with her.
After that she's on her own.
This is her decision - you cannot in good conscience make this decision for her - which is why you can't tell her not to take it.
For all you know, that person who you think is a nightmare to work with
might have a totally different relationship with her. There's less than twenty people in the company, she has to at least be aware of that person, right?
Finally, let it go.
She's an adult now and needs to start reaping the rewards of her decisions - the good and the bad.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I do think it's appropriate to talk to her, but you need to do so in the right context.
I have a practice when I interview candidates, work with interns, or extend job offers. I always set the stage by saying something along the lines of,
I want to make sure this process is a two way street. In representing the company, I am going to be evaluating your skills and making a decision on your fitness for this position. But, I also want to make sure that you have the opportunity to decide for yourself if this company and this offer is a good fit for you. Do you have any questions about the responsibilities, the work culture, or other aspects of the job that are important to you?
With very junior employees, or others who may not be well positioned to evaluate this via their own questioning (such as the employee you're considering), it's totally legitimate to plant some suggestions or leading questions.
In other words, I don't think it's appropriate to tell her, "you don't want to work here" but I do think it's completely appropriate, and in everyone's best interest, to help her ask some questions that will lead her to making the best decision for her, with a full understanding of the employment environment.
Also, to fully answer your question, I think it's important to ask yourself a few things in terms of the conclusion you've arrived at. Would be actually be a bad thing for her to work there? Or are you just assuming that?
working with a difficult manager can be a great learning experience for the employee. It's not something you'd wish on someone of course, but it can be a good opportunity for her to understand how to deal with difficult coworkers or superiors (which is a critically important skill that everyone should have)
working for a failing company can help her understand what makes companies fail, which may put her in a position to contribute some other employer in the future who may be starting to head down that path. I've worked for failing companies and while it's stressful, it's also incredibly eye opening
someone freshly out of college may simply need a job no matter how bad you think it is!
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up vote
134
down vote
Meet her for a coffee. (If you're a guy, mention that it's to talk about her career and meet her in a totally non-romantic setting, otherwise she might get scared you are interested in her romantically).
During a 1:1 conversation there are plenty of ways you can say something without saying anything that could cost you your job:
- ask her about her plans - when she says she's applying, stress that you will be happy to provide references
- mention that a job in your company is also an option, that you were happy with her, but imply that many changes are coming... The culture is something that not everybody likes and her new boss has a management style very different to yours.
- stress that she should think it over and that you won't take offense if she rejects the offer.
It's a lot about your tone.
You shouldn't say too much but if she's smart she will understand.
Referring to the previous answer: yes, you need to stay loyal to your company. But if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways. So it is in the interest of the company for you to let her know what she can expect.
8
I agree with this. Seeing as you managed her as an intern, I don't think there would be much harm in meeting her for a coffee informally and discussing some of the wider issues that are going on in the company, so that she can be more aware and make an informed decision about whether or not to accept the offer.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
5
I almost agree. Blind loyalty is no virtue. If the reality is that the intern would be managed by an abusive "nightmare" were she to accept, OP would push her towards that outcome if they withheld that information. Out of respect for their intern, OP should be open with any objective information that would influence her decision (that doesn't also break NDA or existing legal contracts).
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
25
In particular, I think it is wrong to assume that "if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways." There are many reasons people stay in jobs they hate: the expenses involved in relocating, the uncertainty in finding a new job (especially early in one's career and without a recommendation from the former employer), their financial dependence on their continued employment, and even outright blackmail on the part of an abusive boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
2
Good point Alex. I'd add to this advice to make it very clear that she's getting a good recommendation from the OP no matter what she chooses to do.
– George M
yesterday
4
Mentioning that a meeting invitation is "to talk about her career" is not likely to dispel fears of sexual harassment. On the contrary, it could be a red flag.
– phoog
15 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
up vote
134
down vote
Meet her for a coffee. (If you're a guy, mention that it's to talk about her career and meet her in a totally non-romantic setting, otherwise she might get scared you are interested in her romantically).
During a 1:1 conversation there are plenty of ways you can say something without saying anything that could cost you your job:
- ask her about her plans - when she says she's applying, stress that you will be happy to provide references
- mention that a job in your company is also an option, that you were happy with her, but imply that many changes are coming... The culture is something that not everybody likes and her new boss has a management style very different to yours.
- stress that she should think it over and that you won't take offense if she rejects the offer.
It's a lot about your tone.
You shouldn't say too much but if she's smart she will understand.
Referring to the previous answer: yes, you need to stay loyal to your company. But if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways. So it is in the interest of the company for you to let her know what she can expect.
8
I agree with this. Seeing as you managed her as an intern, I don't think there would be much harm in meeting her for a coffee informally and discussing some of the wider issues that are going on in the company, so that she can be more aware and make an informed decision about whether or not to accept the offer.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
5
I almost agree. Blind loyalty is no virtue. If the reality is that the intern would be managed by an abusive "nightmare" were she to accept, OP would push her towards that outcome if they withheld that information. Out of respect for their intern, OP should be open with any objective information that would influence her decision (that doesn't also break NDA or existing legal contracts).
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
25
In particular, I think it is wrong to assume that "if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways." There are many reasons people stay in jobs they hate: the expenses involved in relocating, the uncertainty in finding a new job (especially early in one's career and without a recommendation from the former employer), their financial dependence on their continued employment, and even outright blackmail on the part of an abusive boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
2
Good point Alex. I'd add to this advice to make it very clear that she's getting a good recommendation from the OP no matter what she chooses to do.
– George M
yesterday
4
Mentioning that a meeting invitation is "to talk about her career" is not likely to dispel fears of sexual harassment. On the contrary, it could be a red flag.
– phoog
15 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
up vote
134
down vote
up vote
134
down vote
Meet her for a coffee. (If you're a guy, mention that it's to talk about her career and meet her in a totally non-romantic setting, otherwise she might get scared you are interested in her romantically).
During a 1:1 conversation there are plenty of ways you can say something without saying anything that could cost you your job:
- ask her about her plans - when she says she's applying, stress that you will be happy to provide references
- mention that a job in your company is also an option, that you were happy with her, but imply that many changes are coming... The culture is something that not everybody likes and her new boss has a management style very different to yours.
- stress that she should think it over and that you won't take offense if she rejects the offer.
It's a lot about your tone.
You shouldn't say too much but if she's smart she will understand.
Referring to the previous answer: yes, you need to stay loyal to your company. But if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways. So it is in the interest of the company for you to let her know what she can expect.
Meet her for a coffee. (If you're a guy, mention that it's to talk about her career and meet her in a totally non-romantic setting, otherwise she might get scared you are interested in her romantically).
During a 1:1 conversation there are plenty of ways you can say something without saying anything that could cost you your job:
- ask her about her plans - when she says she's applying, stress that you will be happy to provide references
- mention that a job in your company is also an option, that you were happy with her, but imply that many changes are coming... The culture is something that not everybody likes and her new boss has a management style very different to yours.
- stress that she should think it over and that you won't take offense if she rejects the offer.
It's a lot about your tone.
You shouldn't say too much but if she's smart she will understand.
Referring to the previous answer: yes, you need to stay loyal to your company. But if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways. So it is in the interest of the company for you to let her know what she can expect.
edited 21 hours ago
answered yesterday
385703
7,22661441
7,22661441
8
I agree with this. Seeing as you managed her as an intern, I don't think there would be much harm in meeting her for a coffee informally and discussing some of the wider issues that are going on in the company, so that she can be more aware and make an informed decision about whether or not to accept the offer.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
5
I almost agree. Blind loyalty is no virtue. If the reality is that the intern would be managed by an abusive "nightmare" were she to accept, OP would push her towards that outcome if they withheld that information. Out of respect for their intern, OP should be open with any objective information that would influence her decision (that doesn't also break NDA or existing legal contracts).
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
25
In particular, I think it is wrong to assume that "if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways." There are many reasons people stay in jobs they hate: the expenses involved in relocating, the uncertainty in finding a new job (especially early in one's career and without a recommendation from the former employer), their financial dependence on their continued employment, and even outright blackmail on the part of an abusive boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
2
Good point Alex. I'd add to this advice to make it very clear that she's getting a good recommendation from the OP no matter what she chooses to do.
– George M
yesterday
4
Mentioning that a meeting invitation is "to talk about her career" is not likely to dispel fears of sexual harassment. On the contrary, it could be a red flag.
– phoog
15 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
8
I agree with this. Seeing as you managed her as an intern, I don't think there would be much harm in meeting her for a coffee informally and discussing some of the wider issues that are going on in the company, so that she can be more aware and make an informed decision about whether or not to accept the offer.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
5
I almost agree. Blind loyalty is no virtue. If the reality is that the intern would be managed by an abusive "nightmare" were she to accept, OP would push her towards that outcome if they withheld that information. Out of respect for their intern, OP should be open with any objective information that would influence her decision (that doesn't also break NDA or existing legal contracts).
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
25
In particular, I think it is wrong to assume that "if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways." There are many reasons people stay in jobs they hate: the expenses involved in relocating, the uncertainty in finding a new job (especially early in one's career and without a recommendation from the former employer), their financial dependence on their continued employment, and even outright blackmail on the part of an abusive boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
2
Good point Alex. I'd add to this advice to make it very clear that she's getting a good recommendation from the OP no matter what she chooses to do.
– George M
yesterday
4
Mentioning that a meeting invitation is "to talk about her career" is not likely to dispel fears of sexual harassment. On the contrary, it could be a red flag.
– phoog
15 hours ago
8
8
I agree with this. Seeing as you managed her as an intern, I don't think there would be much harm in meeting her for a coffee informally and discussing some of the wider issues that are going on in the company, so that she can be more aware and make an informed decision about whether or not to accept the offer.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
I agree with this. Seeing as you managed her as an intern, I don't think there would be much harm in meeting her for a coffee informally and discussing some of the wider issues that are going on in the company, so that she can be more aware and make an informed decision about whether or not to accept the offer.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
5
5
I almost agree. Blind loyalty is no virtue. If the reality is that the intern would be managed by an abusive "nightmare" were she to accept, OP would push her towards that outcome if they withheld that information. Out of respect for their intern, OP should be open with any objective information that would influence her decision (that doesn't also break NDA or existing legal contracts).
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
I almost agree. Blind loyalty is no virtue. If the reality is that the intern would be managed by an abusive "nightmare" were she to accept, OP would push her towards that outcome if they withheld that information. Out of respect for their intern, OP should be open with any objective information that would influence her decision (that doesn't also break NDA or existing legal contracts).
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
25
25
In particular, I think it is wrong to assume that "if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways." There are many reasons people stay in jobs they hate: the expenses involved in relocating, the uncertainty in finding a new job (especially early in one's career and without a recommendation from the former employer), their financial dependence on their continued employment, and even outright blackmail on the part of an abusive boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
In particular, I think it is wrong to assume that "if the company is really so bad, the woman would quit quickly anyways." There are many reasons people stay in jobs they hate: the expenses involved in relocating, the uncertainty in finding a new job (especially early in one's career and without a recommendation from the former employer), their financial dependence on their continued employment, and even outright blackmail on the part of an abusive boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
2
2
Good point Alex. I'd add to this advice to make it very clear that she's getting a good recommendation from the OP no matter what she chooses to do.
– George M
yesterday
Good point Alex. I'd add to this advice to make it very clear that she's getting a good recommendation from the OP no matter what she chooses to do.
– George M
yesterday
4
4
Mentioning that a meeting invitation is "to talk about her career" is not likely to dispel fears of sexual harassment. On the contrary, it could be a red flag.
– phoog
15 hours ago
Mentioning that a meeting invitation is "to talk about her career" is not likely to dispel fears of sexual harassment. On the contrary, it could be a red flag.
– phoog
15 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
up vote
52
down vote
Sounds to me like you don't owe this company any particular allegience -- the key to being ethical with this is separate your business responsibilities from your personal obligation not to harm this person.
Send the intern the offer from your corporate email with no comment on its desirability one way or the other.
Then phone the intern/meet in person on your own time and give her your thoughts on the company as an impartial human being.
She is then free to make up her own mind about what to do.
5
i don't think the OP can be an "impartial human being". this is really about the relative value of loyalty to evidently a bad employer (who is still paying the OP's paycheck and deserves some measure of consideration for that) and the sense of responsibility to not harm this potential employee. this is a sorta sticky wicket.
– robert bristow-johnson
yesterday
The problem with this is her position at the company requires her to convince this qualified candidate to work for them. To run contrary to that on her "personal time" is problematic ethically and perhaps even legally. Bad employer or not, to actively sabotage their hiring of a future employee is a bad idea. Be honest about work conditions, but do not spin it in a way that clearly communicates "you should not work here." If she doesn't feel comfortable making the offer, she should get someone else to do it.
– BlackThorn
14 hours ago
1
@BlackThorn OP has the responsibility to help hire a good fit for the position. This usually doesn't include hiring someone who's going to hate the job and leave ASAP. Someone who reports to the CEO should have a lot of flexibility.
– David Thornley
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
52
down vote
Sounds to me like you don't owe this company any particular allegience -- the key to being ethical with this is separate your business responsibilities from your personal obligation not to harm this person.
Send the intern the offer from your corporate email with no comment on its desirability one way or the other.
Then phone the intern/meet in person on your own time and give her your thoughts on the company as an impartial human being.
She is then free to make up her own mind about what to do.
5
i don't think the OP can be an "impartial human being". this is really about the relative value of loyalty to evidently a bad employer (who is still paying the OP's paycheck and deserves some measure of consideration for that) and the sense of responsibility to not harm this potential employee. this is a sorta sticky wicket.
– robert bristow-johnson
yesterday
The problem with this is her position at the company requires her to convince this qualified candidate to work for them. To run contrary to that on her "personal time" is problematic ethically and perhaps even legally. Bad employer or not, to actively sabotage their hiring of a future employee is a bad idea. Be honest about work conditions, but do not spin it in a way that clearly communicates "you should not work here." If she doesn't feel comfortable making the offer, she should get someone else to do it.
– BlackThorn
14 hours ago
1
@BlackThorn OP has the responsibility to help hire a good fit for the position. This usually doesn't include hiring someone who's going to hate the job and leave ASAP. Someone who reports to the CEO should have a lot of flexibility.
– David Thornley
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
52
down vote
up vote
52
down vote
Sounds to me like you don't owe this company any particular allegience -- the key to being ethical with this is separate your business responsibilities from your personal obligation not to harm this person.
Send the intern the offer from your corporate email with no comment on its desirability one way or the other.
Then phone the intern/meet in person on your own time and give her your thoughts on the company as an impartial human being.
She is then free to make up her own mind about what to do.
Sounds to me like you don't owe this company any particular allegience -- the key to being ethical with this is separate your business responsibilities from your personal obligation not to harm this person.
Send the intern the offer from your corporate email with no comment on its desirability one way or the other.
Then phone the intern/meet in person on your own time and give her your thoughts on the company as an impartial human being.
She is then free to make up her own mind about what to do.
answered yesterday
jkf
67838
67838
5
i don't think the OP can be an "impartial human being". this is really about the relative value of loyalty to evidently a bad employer (who is still paying the OP's paycheck and deserves some measure of consideration for that) and the sense of responsibility to not harm this potential employee. this is a sorta sticky wicket.
– robert bristow-johnson
yesterday
The problem with this is her position at the company requires her to convince this qualified candidate to work for them. To run contrary to that on her "personal time" is problematic ethically and perhaps even legally. Bad employer or not, to actively sabotage their hiring of a future employee is a bad idea. Be honest about work conditions, but do not spin it in a way that clearly communicates "you should not work here." If she doesn't feel comfortable making the offer, she should get someone else to do it.
– BlackThorn
14 hours ago
1
@BlackThorn OP has the responsibility to help hire a good fit for the position. This usually doesn't include hiring someone who's going to hate the job and leave ASAP. Someone who reports to the CEO should have a lot of flexibility.
– David Thornley
12 hours ago
add a comment |
5
i don't think the OP can be an "impartial human being". this is really about the relative value of loyalty to evidently a bad employer (who is still paying the OP's paycheck and deserves some measure of consideration for that) and the sense of responsibility to not harm this potential employee. this is a sorta sticky wicket.
– robert bristow-johnson
yesterday
The problem with this is her position at the company requires her to convince this qualified candidate to work for them. To run contrary to that on her "personal time" is problematic ethically and perhaps even legally. Bad employer or not, to actively sabotage their hiring of a future employee is a bad idea. Be honest about work conditions, but do not spin it in a way that clearly communicates "you should not work here." If she doesn't feel comfortable making the offer, she should get someone else to do it.
– BlackThorn
14 hours ago
1
@BlackThorn OP has the responsibility to help hire a good fit for the position. This usually doesn't include hiring someone who's going to hate the job and leave ASAP. Someone who reports to the CEO should have a lot of flexibility.
– David Thornley
12 hours ago
5
5
i don't think the OP can be an "impartial human being". this is really about the relative value of loyalty to evidently a bad employer (who is still paying the OP's paycheck and deserves some measure of consideration for that) and the sense of responsibility to not harm this potential employee. this is a sorta sticky wicket.
– robert bristow-johnson
yesterday
i don't think the OP can be an "impartial human being". this is really about the relative value of loyalty to evidently a bad employer (who is still paying the OP's paycheck and deserves some measure of consideration for that) and the sense of responsibility to not harm this potential employee. this is a sorta sticky wicket.
– robert bristow-johnson
yesterday
The problem with this is her position at the company requires her to convince this qualified candidate to work for them. To run contrary to that on her "personal time" is problematic ethically and perhaps even legally. Bad employer or not, to actively sabotage their hiring of a future employee is a bad idea. Be honest about work conditions, but do not spin it in a way that clearly communicates "you should not work here." If she doesn't feel comfortable making the offer, she should get someone else to do it.
– BlackThorn
14 hours ago
The problem with this is her position at the company requires her to convince this qualified candidate to work for them. To run contrary to that on her "personal time" is problematic ethically and perhaps even legally. Bad employer or not, to actively sabotage their hiring of a future employee is a bad idea. Be honest about work conditions, but do not spin it in a way that clearly communicates "you should not work here." If she doesn't feel comfortable making the offer, she should get someone else to do it.
– BlackThorn
14 hours ago
1
1
@BlackThorn OP has the responsibility to help hire a good fit for the position. This usually doesn't include hiring someone who's going to hate the job and leave ASAP. Someone who reports to the CEO should have a lot of flexibility.
– David Thornley
12 hours ago
@BlackThorn OP has the responsibility to help hire a good fit for the position. This usually doesn't include hiring someone who's going to hate the job and leave ASAP. Someone who reports to the CEO should have a lot of flexibility.
– David Thornley
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
44
down vote
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to
decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I
should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
Your boss told you to make the offer, and you acknowledge that she deserves the offer. Thus, you have to do it.
If she asks you about the offer or company, you can carefully disclose some of your feelings while still making it clear that this is solely her decision to make. And you can offer to be a great reference for her if this offer isn't what she is looking for.
Remember, she may not share your feelings about the company and manager. And while it's not what you want, it may still be what she wants.
9
+1 - fulfill your duties to your employer by extending the offer; fulfill your moral obligations to your intern by warning her about a nightmare boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
3
+1 that she might decide it's a good fit for her, so let her decide for herself. And who knows, the company might not go under. She could miss a great opportunity by not taking the offer. Not saying this is the case, but it's worth letting her decide for herself.
– bob
yesterday
1
Yep, important thing here is that she has the information to make an informed decision. Minor nitpick, "if she asks". Personally I would feel it my responsibility to share. She doesn't know what you know and may not feel the need to ask/be skeptical.
– aw04
16 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
44
down vote
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to
decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I
should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
Your boss told you to make the offer, and you acknowledge that she deserves the offer. Thus, you have to do it.
If she asks you about the offer or company, you can carefully disclose some of your feelings while still making it clear that this is solely her decision to make. And you can offer to be a great reference for her if this offer isn't what she is looking for.
Remember, she may not share your feelings about the company and manager. And while it's not what you want, it may still be what she wants.
9
+1 - fulfill your duties to your employer by extending the offer; fulfill your moral obligations to your intern by warning her about a nightmare boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
3
+1 that she might decide it's a good fit for her, so let her decide for herself. And who knows, the company might not go under. She could miss a great opportunity by not taking the offer. Not saying this is the case, but it's worth letting her decide for herself.
– bob
yesterday
1
Yep, important thing here is that she has the information to make an informed decision. Minor nitpick, "if she asks". Personally I would feel it my responsibility to share. She doesn't know what you know and may not feel the need to ask/be skeptical.
– aw04
16 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
44
down vote
up vote
44
down vote
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to
decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I
should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
Your boss told you to make the offer, and you acknowledge that she deserves the offer. Thus, you have to do it.
If she asks you about the offer or company, you can carefully disclose some of your feelings while still making it clear that this is solely her decision to make. And you can offer to be a great reference for her if this offer isn't what she is looking for.
Remember, she may not share your feelings about the company and manager. And while it's not what you want, it may still be what she wants.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to
decline it. Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I
should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this?
Your boss told you to make the offer, and you acknowledge that she deserves the offer. Thus, you have to do it.
If she asks you about the offer or company, you can carefully disclose some of your feelings while still making it clear that this is solely her decision to make. And you can offer to be a great reference for her if this offer isn't what she is looking for.
Remember, she may not share your feelings about the company and manager. And while it's not what you want, it may still be what she wants.
answered yesterday
Joe Strazzere
236k115693985
236k115693985
9
+1 - fulfill your duties to your employer by extending the offer; fulfill your moral obligations to your intern by warning her about a nightmare boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
3
+1 that she might decide it's a good fit for her, so let her decide for herself. And who knows, the company might not go under. She could miss a great opportunity by not taking the offer. Not saying this is the case, but it's worth letting her decide for herself.
– bob
yesterday
1
Yep, important thing here is that she has the information to make an informed decision. Minor nitpick, "if she asks". Personally I would feel it my responsibility to share. She doesn't know what you know and may not feel the need to ask/be skeptical.
– aw04
16 hours ago
add a comment |
9
+1 - fulfill your duties to your employer by extending the offer; fulfill your moral obligations to your intern by warning her about a nightmare boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
3
+1 that she might decide it's a good fit for her, so let her decide for herself. And who knows, the company might not go under. She could miss a great opportunity by not taking the offer. Not saying this is the case, but it's worth letting her decide for herself.
– bob
yesterday
1
Yep, important thing here is that she has the information to make an informed decision. Minor nitpick, "if she asks". Personally I would feel it my responsibility to share. She doesn't know what you know and may not feel the need to ask/be skeptical.
– aw04
16 hours ago
9
9
+1 - fulfill your duties to your employer by extending the offer; fulfill your moral obligations to your intern by warning her about a nightmare boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
+1 - fulfill your duties to your employer by extending the offer; fulfill your moral obligations to your intern by warning her about a nightmare boss.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
3
3
+1 that she might decide it's a good fit for her, so let her decide for herself. And who knows, the company might not go under. She could miss a great opportunity by not taking the offer. Not saying this is the case, but it's worth letting her decide for herself.
– bob
yesterday
+1 that she might decide it's a good fit for her, so let her decide for herself. And who knows, the company might not go under. She could miss a great opportunity by not taking the offer. Not saying this is the case, but it's worth letting her decide for herself.
– bob
yesterday
1
1
Yep, important thing here is that she has the information to make an informed decision. Minor nitpick, "if she asks". Personally I would feel it my responsibility to share. She doesn't know what you know and may not feel the need to ask/be skeptical.
– aw04
16 hours ago
Yep, important thing here is that she has the information to make an informed decision. Minor nitpick, "if she asks". Personally I would feel it my responsibility to share. She doesn't know what you know and may not feel the need to ask/be skeptical.
– aw04
16 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
Advice could be problematic; informed consent is not. Present her with the offer, as well as the relevant information that she needs to make an informed decision. The offer is not only for a position with a particular compensation package, it is for an employment relationship with the company. Like any relationship, there are not only benefits, but liabilities and responsibilities. She needs to be made aware of the reasons that underlie your desire to recommend against taking the position, and then leave her to make her own decision. As part of this, highlight things that she may otherwise overlook, such as the fact that in her role as an intern, she has been insulated from some of the less palatable aspects of working there, as well as the fact that her work experience and her exemplary performance would qualify her to work at any number of other employers, and that it’s always wise to assess multiple offers rather than accepting the first opportunity that presents itself. Also stress that you’d be happy to serve as a reference not only for this role, but for any role outside of the company.
Once you have laid all of your cards on the table, the decision to accept or reject the offer will truly be her decision, which she will be able to make with eyes wide open. She may choose to take the job and regret it. But if she does, it will be her choice and her learning experience. Unless you give her the relevant information, you’re depriving her of that opportunity to decide for herself. I appreciate your desire to go to bat for her. You just need to do so in a way that is equitable for all parties concerned. As long as you stick to the facts, you should be fine.
New contributor
7
+1. I think the key thing is to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. It's not in the interest of the company either, if she joins and then quits after 2 months, because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
+1. But people give positive "you should come here" style advice all the time. I don't think it's out of line to give advice that would save someone from months or years of abuse from a "nightmare" manager.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
@AlexReinking, there's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years if it isn't mutually beneficial. if the person in question is a third party, then I agree, giving advice is fine. However, as a representative of the company, you have an obligation to represent the interests of the company. Giving someone the information that they need to make a decision for themselves does a good job of balancing those interests. If someone was moving across the country for the job, I would agree that taking a more proactively cautionary tone would be advisable.
– S. Hooley
yesterday
"There's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years" except for an abusive boss who might threaten to blacklist them should they leave, the great expenses (both social and financial) involved in relocating, the difficulty in finding a new job (depending on the industry), etc. The only obligations to one's employer are those drawn out in contract, typically in the US, that's just the labor they were hired to do.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
Advice could be problematic; informed consent is not. Present her with the offer, as well as the relevant information that she needs to make an informed decision. The offer is not only for a position with a particular compensation package, it is for an employment relationship with the company. Like any relationship, there are not only benefits, but liabilities and responsibilities. She needs to be made aware of the reasons that underlie your desire to recommend against taking the position, and then leave her to make her own decision. As part of this, highlight things that she may otherwise overlook, such as the fact that in her role as an intern, she has been insulated from some of the less palatable aspects of working there, as well as the fact that her work experience and her exemplary performance would qualify her to work at any number of other employers, and that it’s always wise to assess multiple offers rather than accepting the first opportunity that presents itself. Also stress that you’d be happy to serve as a reference not only for this role, but for any role outside of the company.
Once you have laid all of your cards on the table, the decision to accept or reject the offer will truly be her decision, which she will be able to make with eyes wide open. She may choose to take the job and regret it. But if she does, it will be her choice and her learning experience. Unless you give her the relevant information, you’re depriving her of that opportunity to decide for herself. I appreciate your desire to go to bat for her. You just need to do so in a way that is equitable for all parties concerned. As long as you stick to the facts, you should be fine.
New contributor
7
+1. I think the key thing is to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. It's not in the interest of the company either, if she joins and then quits after 2 months, because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
+1. But people give positive "you should come here" style advice all the time. I don't think it's out of line to give advice that would save someone from months or years of abuse from a "nightmare" manager.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
@AlexReinking, there's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years if it isn't mutually beneficial. if the person in question is a third party, then I agree, giving advice is fine. However, as a representative of the company, you have an obligation to represent the interests of the company. Giving someone the information that they need to make a decision for themselves does a good job of balancing those interests. If someone was moving across the country for the job, I would agree that taking a more proactively cautionary tone would be advisable.
– S. Hooley
yesterday
"There's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years" except for an abusive boss who might threaten to blacklist them should they leave, the great expenses (both social and financial) involved in relocating, the difficulty in finding a new job (depending on the industry), etc. The only obligations to one's employer are those drawn out in contract, typically in the US, that's just the labor they were hired to do.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
up vote
23
down vote
Advice could be problematic; informed consent is not. Present her with the offer, as well as the relevant information that she needs to make an informed decision. The offer is not only for a position with a particular compensation package, it is for an employment relationship with the company. Like any relationship, there are not only benefits, but liabilities and responsibilities. She needs to be made aware of the reasons that underlie your desire to recommend against taking the position, and then leave her to make her own decision. As part of this, highlight things that she may otherwise overlook, such as the fact that in her role as an intern, she has been insulated from some of the less palatable aspects of working there, as well as the fact that her work experience and her exemplary performance would qualify her to work at any number of other employers, and that it’s always wise to assess multiple offers rather than accepting the first opportunity that presents itself. Also stress that you’d be happy to serve as a reference not only for this role, but for any role outside of the company.
Once you have laid all of your cards on the table, the decision to accept or reject the offer will truly be her decision, which she will be able to make with eyes wide open. She may choose to take the job and regret it. But if she does, it will be her choice and her learning experience. Unless you give her the relevant information, you’re depriving her of that opportunity to decide for herself. I appreciate your desire to go to bat for her. You just need to do so in a way that is equitable for all parties concerned. As long as you stick to the facts, you should be fine.
New contributor
Advice could be problematic; informed consent is not. Present her with the offer, as well as the relevant information that she needs to make an informed decision. The offer is not only for a position with a particular compensation package, it is for an employment relationship with the company. Like any relationship, there are not only benefits, but liabilities and responsibilities. She needs to be made aware of the reasons that underlie your desire to recommend against taking the position, and then leave her to make her own decision. As part of this, highlight things that she may otherwise overlook, such as the fact that in her role as an intern, she has been insulated from some of the less palatable aspects of working there, as well as the fact that her work experience and her exemplary performance would qualify her to work at any number of other employers, and that it’s always wise to assess multiple offers rather than accepting the first opportunity that presents itself. Also stress that you’d be happy to serve as a reference not only for this role, but for any role outside of the company.
Once you have laid all of your cards on the table, the decision to accept or reject the offer will truly be her decision, which she will be able to make with eyes wide open. She may choose to take the job and regret it. But if she does, it will be her choice and her learning experience. Unless you give her the relevant information, you’re depriving her of that opportunity to decide for herself. I appreciate your desire to go to bat for her. You just need to do so in a way that is equitable for all parties concerned. As long as you stick to the facts, you should be fine.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
S. Hooley
33914
33914
New contributor
New contributor
7
+1. I think the key thing is to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. It's not in the interest of the company either, if she joins and then quits after 2 months, because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
+1. But people give positive "you should come here" style advice all the time. I don't think it's out of line to give advice that would save someone from months or years of abuse from a "nightmare" manager.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
@AlexReinking, there's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years if it isn't mutually beneficial. if the person in question is a third party, then I agree, giving advice is fine. However, as a representative of the company, you have an obligation to represent the interests of the company. Giving someone the information that they need to make a decision for themselves does a good job of balancing those interests. If someone was moving across the country for the job, I would agree that taking a more proactively cautionary tone would be advisable.
– S. Hooley
yesterday
"There's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years" except for an abusive boss who might threaten to blacklist them should they leave, the great expenses (both social and financial) involved in relocating, the difficulty in finding a new job (depending on the industry), etc. The only obligations to one's employer are those drawn out in contract, typically in the US, that's just the labor they were hired to do.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
add a comment |
7
+1. I think the key thing is to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. It's not in the interest of the company either, if she joins and then quits after 2 months, because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
+1. But people give positive "you should come here" style advice all the time. I don't think it's out of line to give advice that would save someone from months or years of abuse from a "nightmare" manager.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
@AlexReinking, there's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years if it isn't mutually beneficial. if the person in question is a third party, then I agree, giving advice is fine. However, as a representative of the company, you have an obligation to represent the interests of the company. Giving someone the information that they need to make a decision for themselves does a good job of balancing those interests. If someone was moving across the country for the job, I would agree that taking a more proactively cautionary tone would be advisable.
– S. Hooley
yesterday
"There's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years" except for an abusive boss who might threaten to blacklist them should they leave, the great expenses (both social and financial) involved in relocating, the difficulty in finding a new job (depending on the industry), etc. The only obligations to one's employer are those drawn out in contract, typically in the US, that's just the labor they were hired to do.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
7
7
+1. I think the key thing is to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. It's not in the interest of the company either, if she joins and then quits after 2 months, because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
+1. I think the key thing is to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. It's not in the interest of the company either, if she joins and then quits after 2 months, because she didn't know what she was getting herself into.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
+1. But people give positive "you should come here" style advice all the time. I don't think it's out of line to give advice that would save someone from months or years of abuse from a "nightmare" manager.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
+1. But people give positive "you should come here" style advice all the time. I don't think it's out of line to give advice that would save someone from months or years of abuse from a "nightmare" manager.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
@AlexReinking, there's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years if it isn't mutually beneficial. if the person in question is a third party, then I agree, giving advice is fine. However, as a representative of the company, you have an obligation to represent the interests of the company. Giving someone the information that they need to make a decision for themselves does a good job of balancing those interests. If someone was moving across the country for the job, I would agree that taking a more proactively cautionary tone would be advisable.
– S. Hooley
yesterday
@AlexReinking, there's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years if it isn't mutually beneficial. if the person in question is a third party, then I agree, giving advice is fine. However, as a representative of the company, you have an obligation to represent the interests of the company. Giving someone the information that they need to make a decision for themselves does a good job of balancing those interests. If someone was moving across the country for the job, I would agree that taking a more proactively cautionary tone would be advisable.
– S. Hooley
yesterday
"There's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years" except for an abusive boss who might threaten to blacklist them should they leave, the great expenses (both social and financial) involved in relocating, the difficulty in finding a new job (depending on the industry), etc. The only obligations to one's employer are those drawn out in contract, typically in the US, that's just the labor they were hired to do.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
"There's nothing obligating this person from staying with this company for years" except for an abusive boss who might threaten to blacklist them should they leave, the great expenses (both social and financial) involved in relocating, the difficulty in finding a new job (depending on the industry), etc. The only obligations to one's employer are those drawn out in contract, typically in the US, that's just the labor they were hired to do.
– Alex Reinking
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
One major reason not to do this is: what if she accepts the offer, despite your warnings?
You are now in a very awkward position: your junior is now in a position to blackmail you. This is especially important as you are considering jumping ship: your reputation capital gained at your current firm is at its most valuable.
Regardless of whether the moral thing to do is telling the excellent former intern that your company is toxic and destined for the corporate dustbin, you are now putting your own career in jeopardy.
A missed opportunity is a relatively minor thing early on in your career. Later on, being seen to act against your employer's interests and in a matter that is entirely work related... well, that's a line on your CV that you don't want.
Attorneys are qualified to give moral, legal and financial advice. Those are good headings under which to analyse this decision.
Morally - telling her the lay of the land is absolutely the correct thing to do. (Companies' personalities are a legal fiction and you owe them no moral loyalty - pay them no heed when considering right and wrong.)
Legally - regardless of whether or not you are doing the company legal damage (and you probably are - tortious interference is the first thing that comes to mind), if your current company were to sue you on any grounds, it wouldn't be hard for a good attorney to find some pretext to introduce this situation into evidence to (correctly) portray you as disloyal. (This is particularly bad if you are in a jurisdiction where a jury is the trier of fact in civil cases.) So, while nothing will probably come of this, legally, you're doing yourself no favours at all by telling the intern how things are.
Financially, there's no upside. Only potential downside. Grim as it is, your intern is a nobody and gaining her favour and gratitude gives you nothing tangible. (The keys to the Kingdom of Heaven don't figure on any balance sheets.)
So, no attorney could tell you it was in your best interest to do this. Probably, you'd get away with it, and nothing would happen, other than you would get a warm glow from having gained the gratitude of the former intern. However, if this whole thing went wrong, it would probably go wrong very badly for you.
To repeat: only downside.
It's your life you're talking about, more than hers, and prudence and discretion should be your watchwords.
By telling the intern how things are you aren't just being honest: you're asking her for her confidence, and that is by no means a given. A particularly mercenary and ambitious personality might even smell an opportunity in your indiscretion.
I can completely understand how someone might nevertheless want to go ahead and warn the intern despite this advice; however, doing so is not the sensible and considered thing to do.
New contributor
8
There is some value to building relationships in an industry. And also more generally if you behave like you describe all of the time, you'll develop a reputation as a cold, calculating sociopath.
– Brian Gordon
15 hours ago
@BrianGordon I'm not advocating any general approach to life so I'm not really sure what you're on about: my answer is situation-specific and I'm only answering the question asked. There are real risks for OP in telling the intern that they should be aware of when making this decision. Do you really think OP is better off not considering them?
– tmgr
15 hours ago
1
Agree it's always good to consider the worst case scenario. I do think, however, it's not such a binary thing. There's a middle ground here where you can give the intern useful information to help make her decision without necessarily advising her to decline the offer or doing anything to lead to some of the more extreme outcomes.
– aw04
10 hours ago
1
@aw04 I agree with you! There are surely ways one could go about this. However, the question asked is: Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this? And that's what I've attempted to answer, without telling OP how to go about telling the intern or how much to tell her... because that's not what the question was. (Having said that, deliberately thwarting the company in its attempt to hire the intern is reasonable grounds for dismissal, and howsoever OP does it only really relates to their chances of getting caught.)
– tmgr
6 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
One major reason not to do this is: what if she accepts the offer, despite your warnings?
You are now in a very awkward position: your junior is now in a position to blackmail you. This is especially important as you are considering jumping ship: your reputation capital gained at your current firm is at its most valuable.
Regardless of whether the moral thing to do is telling the excellent former intern that your company is toxic and destined for the corporate dustbin, you are now putting your own career in jeopardy.
A missed opportunity is a relatively minor thing early on in your career. Later on, being seen to act against your employer's interests and in a matter that is entirely work related... well, that's a line on your CV that you don't want.
Attorneys are qualified to give moral, legal and financial advice. Those are good headings under which to analyse this decision.
Morally - telling her the lay of the land is absolutely the correct thing to do. (Companies' personalities are a legal fiction and you owe them no moral loyalty - pay them no heed when considering right and wrong.)
Legally - regardless of whether or not you are doing the company legal damage (and you probably are - tortious interference is the first thing that comes to mind), if your current company were to sue you on any grounds, it wouldn't be hard for a good attorney to find some pretext to introduce this situation into evidence to (correctly) portray you as disloyal. (This is particularly bad if you are in a jurisdiction where a jury is the trier of fact in civil cases.) So, while nothing will probably come of this, legally, you're doing yourself no favours at all by telling the intern how things are.
Financially, there's no upside. Only potential downside. Grim as it is, your intern is a nobody and gaining her favour and gratitude gives you nothing tangible. (The keys to the Kingdom of Heaven don't figure on any balance sheets.)
So, no attorney could tell you it was in your best interest to do this. Probably, you'd get away with it, and nothing would happen, other than you would get a warm glow from having gained the gratitude of the former intern. However, if this whole thing went wrong, it would probably go wrong very badly for you.
To repeat: only downside.
It's your life you're talking about, more than hers, and prudence and discretion should be your watchwords.
By telling the intern how things are you aren't just being honest: you're asking her for her confidence, and that is by no means a given. A particularly mercenary and ambitious personality might even smell an opportunity in your indiscretion.
I can completely understand how someone might nevertheless want to go ahead and warn the intern despite this advice; however, doing so is not the sensible and considered thing to do.
New contributor
8
There is some value to building relationships in an industry. And also more generally if you behave like you describe all of the time, you'll develop a reputation as a cold, calculating sociopath.
– Brian Gordon
15 hours ago
@BrianGordon I'm not advocating any general approach to life so I'm not really sure what you're on about: my answer is situation-specific and I'm only answering the question asked. There are real risks for OP in telling the intern that they should be aware of when making this decision. Do you really think OP is better off not considering them?
– tmgr
15 hours ago
1
Agree it's always good to consider the worst case scenario. I do think, however, it's not such a binary thing. There's a middle ground here where you can give the intern useful information to help make her decision without necessarily advising her to decline the offer or doing anything to lead to some of the more extreme outcomes.
– aw04
10 hours ago
1
@aw04 I agree with you! There are surely ways one could go about this. However, the question asked is: Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this? And that's what I've attempted to answer, without telling OP how to go about telling the intern or how much to tell her... because that's not what the question was. (Having said that, deliberately thwarting the company in its attempt to hire the intern is reasonable grounds for dismissal, and howsoever OP does it only really relates to their chances of getting caught.)
– tmgr
6 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
up vote
21
down vote
One major reason not to do this is: what if she accepts the offer, despite your warnings?
You are now in a very awkward position: your junior is now in a position to blackmail you. This is especially important as you are considering jumping ship: your reputation capital gained at your current firm is at its most valuable.
Regardless of whether the moral thing to do is telling the excellent former intern that your company is toxic and destined for the corporate dustbin, you are now putting your own career in jeopardy.
A missed opportunity is a relatively minor thing early on in your career. Later on, being seen to act against your employer's interests and in a matter that is entirely work related... well, that's a line on your CV that you don't want.
Attorneys are qualified to give moral, legal and financial advice. Those are good headings under which to analyse this decision.
Morally - telling her the lay of the land is absolutely the correct thing to do. (Companies' personalities are a legal fiction and you owe them no moral loyalty - pay them no heed when considering right and wrong.)
Legally - regardless of whether or not you are doing the company legal damage (and you probably are - tortious interference is the first thing that comes to mind), if your current company were to sue you on any grounds, it wouldn't be hard for a good attorney to find some pretext to introduce this situation into evidence to (correctly) portray you as disloyal. (This is particularly bad if you are in a jurisdiction where a jury is the trier of fact in civil cases.) So, while nothing will probably come of this, legally, you're doing yourself no favours at all by telling the intern how things are.
Financially, there's no upside. Only potential downside. Grim as it is, your intern is a nobody and gaining her favour and gratitude gives you nothing tangible. (The keys to the Kingdom of Heaven don't figure on any balance sheets.)
So, no attorney could tell you it was in your best interest to do this. Probably, you'd get away with it, and nothing would happen, other than you would get a warm glow from having gained the gratitude of the former intern. However, if this whole thing went wrong, it would probably go wrong very badly for you.
To repeat: only downside.
It's your life you're talking about, more than hers, and prudence and discretion should be your watchwords.
By telling the intern how things are you aren't just being honest: you're asking her for her confidence, and that is by no means a given. A particularly mercenary and ambitious personality might even smell an opportunity in your indiscretion.
I can completely understand how someone might nevertheless want to go ahead and warn the intern despite this advice; however, doing so is not the sensible and considered thing to do.
New contributor
One major reason not to do this is: what if she accepts the offer, despite your warnings?
You are now in a very awkward position: your junior is now in a position to blackmail you. This is especially important as you are considering jumping ship: your reputation capital gained at your current firm is at its most valuable.
Regardless of whether the moral thing to do is telling the excellent former intern that your company is toxic and destined for the corporate dustbin, you are now putting your own career in jeopardy.
A missed opportunity is a relatively minor thing early on in your career. Later on, being seen to act against your employer's interests and in a matter that is entirely work related... well, that's a line on your CV that you don't want.
Attorneys are qualified to give moral, legal and financial advice. Those are good headings under which to analyse this decision.
Morally - telling her the lay of the land is absolutely the correct thing to do. (Companies' personalities are a legal fiction and you owe them no moral loyalty - pay them no heed when considering right and wrong.)
Legally - regardless of whether or not you are doing the company legal damage (and you probably are - tortious interference is the first thing that comes to mind), if your current company were to sue you on any grounds, it wouldn't be hard for a good attorney to find some pretext to introduce this situation into evidence to (correctly) portray you as disloyal. (This is particularly bad if you are in a jurisdiction where a jury is the trier of fact in civil cases.) So, while nothing will probably come of this, legally, you're doing yourself no favours at all by telling the intern how things are.
Financially, there's no upside. Only potential downside. Grim as it is, your intern is a nobody and gaining her favour and gratitude gives you nothing tangible. (The keys to the Kingdom of Heaven don't figure on any balance sheets.)
So, no attorney could tell you it was in your best interest to do this. Probably, you'd get away with it, and nothing would happen, other than you would get a warm glow from having gained the gratitude of the former intern. However, if this whole thing went wrong, it would probably go wrong very badly for you.
To repeat: only downside.
It's your life you're talking about, more than hers, and prudence and discretion should be your watchwords.
By telling the intern how things are you aren't just being honest: you're asking her for her confidence, and that is by no means a given. A particularly mercenary and ambitious personality might even smell an opportunity in your indiscretion.
I can completely understand how someone might nevertheless want to go ahead and warn the intern despite this advice; however, doing so is not the sensible and considered thing to do.
New contributor
edited 17 hours ago
New contributor
answered yesterday
tmgr
3416
3416
New contributor
New contributor
8
There is some value to building relationships in an industry. And also more generally if you behave like you describe all of the time, you'll develop a reputation as a cold, calculating sociopath.
– Brian Gordon
15 hours ago
@BrianGordon I'm not advocating any general approach to life so I'm not really sure what you're on about: my answer is situation-specific and I'm only answering the question asked. There are real risks for OP in telling the intern that they should be aware of when making this decision. Do you really think OP is better off not considering them?
– tmgr
15 hours ago
1
Agree it's always good to consider the worst case scenario. I do think, however, it's not such a binary thing. There's a middle ground here where you can give the intern useful information to help make her decision without necessarily advising her to decline the offer or doing anything to lead to some of the more extreme outcomes.
– aw04
10 hours ago
1
@aw04 I agree with you! There are surely ways one could go about this. However, the question asked is: Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this? And that's what I've attempted to answer, without telling OP how to go about telling the intern or how much to tell her... because that's not what the question was. (Having said that, deliberately thwarting the company in its attempt to hire the intern is reasonable grounds for dismissal, and howsoever OP does it only really relates to their chances of getting caught.)
– tmgr
6 hours ago
add a comment |
8
There is some value to building relationships in an industry. And also more generally if you behave like you describe all of the time, you'll develop a reputation as a cold, calculating sociopath.
– Brian Gordon
15 hours ago
@BrianGordon I'm not advocating any general approach to life so I'm not really sure what you're on about: my answer is situation-specific and I'm only answering the question asked. There are real risks for OP in telling the intern that they should be aware of when making this decision. Do you really think OP is better off not considering them?
– tmgr
15 hours ago
1
Agree it's always good to consider the worst case scenario. I do think, however, it's not such a binary thing. There's a middle ground here where you can give the intern useful information to help make her decision without necessarily advising her to decline the offer or doing anything to lead to some of the more extreme outcomes.
– aw04
10 hours ago
1
@aw04 I agree with you! There are surely ways one could go about this. However, the question asked is: Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this? And that's what I've attempted to answer, without telling OP how to go about telling the intern or how much to tell her... because that's not what the question was. (Having said that, deliberately thwarting the company in its attempt to hire the intern is reasonable grounds for dismissal, and howsoever OP does it only really relates to their chances of getting caught.)
– tmgr
6 hours ago
8
8
There is some value to building relationships in an industry. And also more generally if you behave like you describe all of the time, you'll develop a reputation as a cold, calculating sociopath.
– Brian Gordon
15 hours ago
There is some value to building relationships in an industry. And also more generally if you behave like you describe all of the time, you'll develop a reputation as a cold, calculating sociopath.
– Brian Gordon
15 hours ago
@BrianGordon I'm not advocating any general approach to life so I'm not really sure what you're on about: my answer is situation-specific and I'm only answering the question asked. There are real risks for OP in telling the intern that they should be aware of when making this decision. Do you really think OP is better off not considering them?
– tmgr
15 hours ago
@BrianGordon I'm not advocating any general approach to life so I'm not really sure what you're on about: my answer is situation-specific and I'm only answering the question asked. There are real risks for OP in telling the intern that they should be aware of when making this decision. Do you really think OP is better off not considering them?
– tmgr
15 hours ago
1
1
Agree it's always good to consider the worst case scenario. I do think, however, it's not such a binary thing. There's a middle ground here where you can give the intern useful information to help make her decision without necessarily advising her to decline the offer or doing anything to lead to some of the more extreme outcomes.
– aw04
10 hours ago
Agree it's always good to consider the worst case scenario. I do think, however, it's not such a binary thing. There's a middle ground here where you can give the intern useful information to help make her decision without necessarily advising her to decline the offer or doing anything to lead to some of the more extreme outcomes.
– aw04
10 hours ago
1
1
@aw04 I agree with you! There are surely ways one could go about this. However, the question asked is: Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this? And that's what I've attempted to answer, without telling OP how to go about telling the intern or how much to tell her... because that's not what the question was. (Having said that, deliberately thwarting the company in its attempt to hire the intern is reasonable grounds for dismissal, and howsoever OP does it only really relates to their chances of getting caught.)
– tmgr
6 hours ago
@aw04 I agree with you! There are surely ways one could go about this. However, the question asked is: Are there any ethical, legal, etc. implications that I should be aware of? Or any reason not to do this? And that's what I've attempted to answer, without telling OP how to go about telling the intern or how much to tell her... because that's not what the question was. (Having said that, deliberately thwarting the company in its attempt to hire the intern is reasonable grounds for dismissal, and howsoever OP does it only really relates to their chances of getting caught.)
– tmgr
6 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
If this other Manager is as bad as you make them out to be, I recommend that you:
- Make sure she is aware that this other Manager is going to be managing her and that their style may be different to yours.
- Try to arrange for her to meet with this other Manager in person, before deciding whether to accept.
If she meets with the other Manager, then it may help her to get a better feel for what they are like, and whether they are someone that she can work with. If it was me, I would definitely want to meet with a prospective new Manager first, to make sure the 'personality fit' is right, because the relationship you have with your direct Manager is so important.
Otherwise, I agree with the other answers that recommend meeting her informally to discuss the situation. Don't advise her not to take it, but try to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. The decision has to be hers. Even if that other Manager is difficult to work with, she might decide it would be good to work there for 6 months to a year, just to get their name on her resume, which is fair enough.
Helping her to make an informed decision is not, in my opinion, contrary to the interests of the company. It would not be in the interests of the company, if she leaves after 2 months because she didn't realize what she was getting herself into.
6
Having her meet with her potential manager is a great idea. I would expect this to be part of the process anyway. But if it's not, take it upon yourself to make it happen.
– Joe Strazzere
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
If this other Manager is as bad as you make them out to be, I recommend that you:
- Make sure she is aware that this other Manager is going to be managing her and that their style may be different to yours.
- Try to arrange for her to meet with this other Manager in person, before deciding whether to accept.
If she meets with the other Manager, then it may help her to get a better feel for what they are like, and whether they are someone that she can work with. If it was me, I would definitely want to meet with a prospective new Manager first, to make sure the 'personality fit' is right, because the relationship you have with your direct Manager is so important.
Otherwise, I agree with the other answers that recommend meeting her informally to discuss the situation. Don't advise her not to take it, but try to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. The decision has to be hers. Even if that other Manager is difficult to work with, she might decide it would be good to work there for 6 months to a year, just to get their name on her resume, which is fair enough.
Helping her to make an informed decision is not, in my opinion, contrary to the interests of the company. It would not be in the interests of the company, if she leaves after 2 months because she didn't realize what she was getting herself into.
6
Having her meet with her potential manager is a great idea. I would expect this to be part of the process anyway. But if it's not, take it upon yourself to make it happen.
– Joe Strazzere
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
If this other Manager is as bad as you make them out to be, I recommend that you:
- Make sure she is aware that this other Manager is going to be managing her and that their style may be different to yours.
- Try to arrange for her to meet with this other Manager in person, before deciding whether to accept.
If she meets with the other Manager, then it may help her to get a better feel for what they are like, and whether they are someone that she can work with. If it was me, I would definitely want to meet with a prospective new Manager first, to make sure the 'personality fit' is right, because the relationship you have with your direct Manager is so important.
Otherwise, I agree with the other answers that recommend meeting her informally to discuss the situation. Don't advise her not to take it, but try to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. The decision has to be hers. Even if that other Manager is difficult to work with, she might decide it would be good to work there for 6 months to a year, just to get their name on her resume, which is fair enough.
Helping her to make an informed decision is not, in my opinion, contrary to the interests of the company. It would not be in the interests of the company, if she leaves after 2 months because she didn't realize what she was getting herself into.
If this other Manager is as bad as you make them out to be, I recommend that you:
- Make sure she is aware that this other Manager is going to be managing her and that their style may be different to yours.
- Try to arrange for her to meet with this other Manager in person, before deciding whether to accept.
If she meets with the other Manager, then it may help her to get a better feel for what they are like, and whether they are someone that she can work with. If it was me, I would definitely want to meet with a prospective new Manager first, to make sure the 'personality fit' is right, because the relationship you have with your direct Manager is so important.
Otherwise, I agree with the other answers that recommend meeting her informally to discuss the situation. Don't advise her not to take it, but try to make sure she has enough information to be able to make an informed decision. The decision has to be hers. Even if that other Manager is difficult to work with, she might decide it would be good to work there for 6 months to a year, just to get their name on her resume, which is fair enough.
Helping her to make an informed decision is not, in my opinion, contrary to the interests of the company. It would not be in the interests of the company, if she leaves after 2 months because she didn't realize what she was getting herself into.
answered yesterday
Time4Tea
2,75931025
2,75931025
6
Having her meet with her potential manager is a great idea. I would expect this to be part of the process anyway. But if it's not, take it upon yourself to make it happen.
– Joe Strazzere
yesterday
add a comment |
6
Having her meet with her potential manager is a great idea. I would expect this to be part of the process anyway. But if it's not, take it upon yourself to make it happen.
– Joe Strazzere
yesterday
6
6
Having her meet with her potential manager is a great idea. I would expect this to be part of the process anyway. But if it's not, take it upon yourself to make it happen.
– Joe Strazzere
yesterday
Having her meet with her potential manager is a great idea. I would expect this to be part of the process anyway. But if it's not, take it upon yourself to make it happen.
– Joe Strazzere
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
Only you know the extent of this would-be manager's abusiveness, but given that you deliberately shielded your intern from him, my instincts suggest he is quite bad indeed.
If giving her direct advice to reject the offer would spare her months or even years of abuse and would not constitute a worse roadblock in her career (perhaps offer her your recommendation to another job), then it is the company's problem that they keep so toxic a person in their employ. It might even save the company a lawsuit down the line, depending again on the manager's misbehavior.
Do, then, what the other answers suggest: give her the offer as is required by your job duties, and then (on your own time) give her all the objective, legal-to-divulge information she would need to make an informed decision. In particular, it sounds like you will need to tell her about this manager since she doesn't have any information about him already.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
Only you know the extent of this would-be manager's abusiveness, but given that you deliberately shielded your intern from him, my instincts suggest he is quite bad indeed.
If giving her direct advice to reject the offer would spare her months or even years of abuse and would not constitute a worse roadblock in her career (perhaps offer her your recommendation to another job), then it is the company's problem that they keep so toxic a person in their employ. It might even save the company a lawsuit down the line, depending again on the manager's misbehavior.
Do, then, what the other answers suggest: give her the offer as is required by your job duties, and then (on your own time) give her all the objective, legal-to-divulge information she would need to make an informed decision. In particular, it sounds like you will need to tell her about this manager since she doesn't have any information about him already.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
Only you know the extent of this would-be manager's abusiveness, but given that you deliberately shielded your intern from him, my instincts suggest he is quite bad indeed.
If giving her direct advice to reject the offer would spare her months or even years of abuse and would not constitute a worse roadblock in her career (perhaps offer her your recommendation to another job), then it is the company's problem that they keep so toxic a person in their employ. It might even save the company a lawsuit down the line, depending again on the manager's misbehavior.
Do, then, what the other answers suggest: give her the offer as is required by your job duties, and then (on your own time) give her all the objective, legal-to-divulge information she would need to make an informed decision. In particular, it sounds like you will need to tell her about this manager since she doesn't have any information about him already.
I'm personally in the midst of looking for other opportunities. And the person she would report to (even if I were to stay) is an absolute nightmare to work with (I was able to keep him at a distance during the internship).
Only you know the extent of this would-be manager's abusiveness, but given that you deliberately shielded your intern from him, my instincts suggest he is quite bad indeed.
If giving her direct advice to reject the offer would spare her months or even years of abuse and would not constitute a worse roadblock in her career (perhaps offer her your recommendation to another job), then it is the company's problem that they keep so toxic a person in their employ. It might even save the company a lawsuit down the line, depending again on the manager's misbehavior.
Do, then, what the other answers suggest: give her the offer as is required by your job duties, and then (on your own time) give her all the objective, legal-to-divulge information she would need to make an informed decision. In particular, it sounds like you will need to tell her about this manager since she doesn't have any information about him already.
answered yesterday
Alex Reinking
208210
208210
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Your only responsibility is to make sure she gets enough information to make an informed decision.
We are talking here about a person who has already worked an internship at your company. She didn't work for Manager X but it's a 12-person company, I find it hard to believe that she knows nothing about him. At the maximum, try to broker a meeting between her and her prospective new manager prior to the offer.
You need to realize that
You may be burned out and being overly bitter. Apparently a bunch of other folks work at the company and haven't fled screaming. You are likely projecting your own dissatisfaction about random "inside baseball" decisions on a new grad that just wants some good experience coding and a good-looking resume line item of working for a startup. There is nothing "ethical" about spreading your negativity to someone else.
Anything beyond openly discussing with the team that you think the role might not be a good fit for her is direct sabotage of your company. You seem to feel that no one should come work there because it's so bad. You should be looking for other opportunities instead of sabotaging them. As a hiring manager, if I found someone on my team had told a candidate "don't come here this company is dysfunctional," they would immediately be fired for cause.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Your only responsibility is to make sure she gets enough information to make an informed decision.
We are talking here about a person who has already worked an internship at your company. She didn't work for Manager X but it's a 12-person company, I find it hard to believe that she knows nothing about him. At the maximum, try to broker a meeting between her and her prospective new manager prior to the offer.
You need to realize that
You may be burned out and being overly bitter. Apparently a bunch of other folks work at the company and haven't fled screaming. You are likely projecting your own dissatisfaction about random "inside baseball" decisions on a new grad that just wants some good experience coding and a good-looking resume line item of working for a startup. There is nothing "ethical" about spreading your negativity to someone else.
Anything beyond openly discussing with the team that you think the role might not be a good fit for her is direct sabotage of your company. You seem to feel that no one should come work there because it's so bad. You should be looking for other opportunities instead of sabotaging them. As a hiring manager, if I found someone on my team had told a candidate "don't come here this company is dysfunctional," they would immediately be fired for cause.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Your only responsibility is to make sure she gets enough information to make an informed decision.
We are talking here about a person who has already worked an internship at your company. She didn't work for Manager X but it's a 12-person company, I find it hard to believe that she knows nothing about him. At the maximum, try to broker a meeting between her and her prospective new manager prior to the offer.
You need to realize that
You may be burned out and being overly bitter. Apparently a bunch of other folks work at the company and haven't fled screaming. You are likely projecting your own dissatisfaction about random "inside baseball" decisions on a new grad that just wants some good experience coding and a good-looking resume line item of working for a startup. There is nothing "ethical" about spreading your negativity to someone else.
Anything beyond openly discussing with the team that you think the role might not be a good fit for her is direct sabotage of your company. You seem to feel that no one should come work there because it's so bad. You should be looking for other opportunities instead of sabotaging them. As a hiring manager, if I found someone on my team had told a candidate "don't come here this company is dysfunctional," they would immediately be fired for cause.
Your only responsibility is to make sure she gets enough information to make an informed decision.
We are talking here about a person who has already worked an internship at your company. She didn't work for Manager X but it's a 12-person company, I find it hard to believe that she knows nothing about him. At the maximum, try to broker a meeting between her and her prospective new manager prior to the offer.
You need to realize that
You may be burned out and being overly bitter. Apparently a bunch of other folks work at the company and haven't fled screaming. You are likely projecting your own dissatisfaction about random "inside baseball" decisions on a new grad that just wants some good experience coding and a good-looking resume line item of working for a startup. There is nothing "ethical" about spreading your negativity to someone else.
Anything beyond openly discussing with the team that you think the role might not be a good fit for her is direct sabotage of your company. You seem to feel that no one should come work there because it's so bad. You should be looking for other opportunities instead of sabotaging them. As a hiring manager, if I found someone on my team had told a candidate "don't come here this company is dysfunctional," they would immediately be fired for cause.
answered yesterday
mxyzplk
7,77622336
7,77622336
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
You should not do this.
As long as you work for the company, your allegiance and responsibility is to the company and not a potential future employee. You are free to decide for yourself whether to stay or go, but you should not be trying to keep the intern from joining the company. From your own review, she is a potentially valuable employee for the company and you would be actively trying to harm the company.
While I can't speak to specific legal concerns, I would expect in any country that actively trying to damage the future of the company is a fire-able offense at a minimum.
36
This answers assumes that you somehow have an allegiance with your company outside the specific work you are hired to do. I don't think this is generally true. Both the company and the employee have to ensure that they are a good fit, you are asking the OP to lie about the fact that the company wont be a good fit for her. Given that we aren't in a capitalistic regime where the sole obligation is to money I'd do the right thing and just be honest about pros and cons and let her decide with full information. This is not actively harming the company, the company is harming itself by being awful.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
17
Is informing someone of all the pros and cons of a position REALLY against the companies interests, though? Doing so may prevent a situation where the person is hired on and leaves the company a week later, which would consume a lot of resources.
– CrazyPaste
yesterday
17
If you haven't noticed, companies have near 0 allegiance to their employees. Granted, they expect 100% loyalty from their employees, but very, very few show it to their employees. It's hard to buy into that one-way street.
– FreeMan
yesterday
14
@cdkMoose Absolutely wrong. Your moral responsibility to be honest and treat people well always trumps loyalty to your employer. To do otherwise marks someone as a horrible human being.
– Gabe Sechan
yesterday
5
@mxyzplk Instead of taking the feedback and fixing the problem. OK.
– Konrad Rudolph
22 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
You should not do this.
As long as you work for the company, your allegiance and responsibility is to the company and not a potential future employee. You are free to decide for yourself whether to stay or go, but you should not be trying to keep the intern from joining the company. From your own review, she is a potentially valuable employee for the company and you would be actively trying to harm the company.
While I can't speak to specific legal concerns, I would expect in any country that actively trying to damage the future of the company is a fire-able offense at a minimum.
36
This answers assumes that you somehow have an allegiance with your company outside the specific work you are hired to do. I don't think this is generally true. Both the company and the employee have to ensure that they are a good fit, you are asking the OP to lie about the fact that the company wont be a good fit for her. Given that we aren't in a capitalistic regime where the sole obligation is to money I'd do the right thing and just be honest about pros and cons and let her decide with full information. This is not actively harming the company, the company is harming itself by being awful.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
17
Is informing someone of all the pros and cons of a position REALLY against the companies interests, though? Doing so may prevent a situation where the person is hired on and leaves the company a week later, which would consume a lot of resources.
– CrazyPaste
yesterday
17
If you haven't noticed, companies have near 0 allegiance to their employees. Granted, they expect 100% loyalty from their employees, but very, very few show it to their employees. It's hard to buy into that one-way street.
– FreeMan
yesterday
14
@cdkMoose Absolutely wrong. Your moral responsibility to be honest and treat people well always trumps loyalty to your employer. To do otherwise marks someone as a horrible human being.
– Gabe Sechan
yesterday
5
@mxyzplk Instead of taking the feedback and fixing the problem. OK.
– Konrad Rudolph
22 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
You should not do this.
As long as you work for the company, your allegiance and responsibility is to the company and not a potential future employee. You are free to decide for yourself whether to stay or go, but you should not be trying to keep the intern from joining the company. From your own review, she is a potentially valuable employee for the company and you would be actively trying to harm the company.
While I can't speak to specific legal concerns, I would expect in any country that actively trying to damage the future of the company is a fire-able offense at a minimum.
You should not do this.
As long as you work for the company, your allegiance and responsibility is to the company and not a potential future employee. You are free to decide for yourself whether to stay or go, but you should not be trying to keep the intern from joining the company. From your own review, she is a potentially valuable employee for the company and you would be actively trying to harm the company.
While I can't speak to specific legal concerns, I would expect in any country that actively trying to damage the future of the company is a fire-able offense at a minimum.
answered yesterday
cdkMoose
9,77022143
9,77022143
36
This answers assumes that you somehow have an allegiance with your company outside the specific work you are hired to do. I don't think this is generally true. Both the company and the employee have to ensure that they are a good fit, you are asking the OP to lie about the fact that the company wont be a good fit for her. Given that we aren't in a capitalistic regime where the sole obligation is to money I'd do the right thing and just be honest about pros and cons and let her decide with full information. This is not actively harming the company, the company is harming itself by being awful.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
17
Is informing someone of all the pros and cons of a position REALLY against the companies interests, though? Doing so may prevent a situation where the person is hired on and leaves the company a week later, which would consume a lot of resources.
– CrazyPaste
yesterday
17
If you haven't noticed, companies have near 0 allegiance to their employees. Granted, they expect 100% loyalty from their employees, but very, very few show it to their employees. It's hard to buy into that one-way street.
– FreeMan
yesterday
14
@cdkMoose Absolutely wrong. Your moral responsibility to be honest and treat people well always trumps loyalty to your employer. To do otherwise marks someone as a horrible human being.
– Gabe Sechan
yesterday
5
@mxyzplk Instead of taking the feedback and fixing the problem. OK.
– Konrad Rudolph
22 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
36
This answers assumes that you somehow have an allegiance with your company outside the specific work you are hired to do. I don't think this is generally true. Both the company and the employee have to ensure that they are a good fit, you are asking the OP to lie about the fact that the company wont be a good fit for her. Given that we aren't in a capitalistic regime where the sole obligation is to money I'd do the right thing and just be honest about pros and cons and let her decide with full information. This is not actively harming the company, the company is harming itself by being awful.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
17
Is informing someone of all the pros and cons of a position REALLY against the companies interests, though? Doing so may prevent a situation where the person is hired on and leaves the company a week later, which would consume a lot of resources.
– CrazyPaste
yesterday
17
If you haven't noticed, companies have near 0 allegiance to their employees. Granted, they expect 100% loyalty from their employees, but very, very few show it to their employees. It's hard to buy into that one-way street.
– FreeMan
yesterday
14
@cdkMoose Absolutely wrong. Your moral responsibility to be honest and treat people well always trumps loyalty to your employer. To do otherwise marks someone as a horrible human being.
– Gabe Sechan
yesterday
5
@mxyzplk Instead of taking the feedback and fixing the problem. OK.
– Konrad Rudolph
22 hours ago
36
36
This answers assumes that you somehow have an allegiance with your company outside the specific work you are hired to do. I don't think this is generally true. Both the company and the employee have to ensure that they are a good fit, you are asking the OP to lie about the fact that the company wont be a good fit for her. Given that we aren't in a capitalistic regime where the sole obligation is to money I'd do the right thing and just be honest about pros and cons and let her decide with full information. This is not actively harming the company, the company is harming itself by being awful.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
This answers assumes that you somehow have an allegiance with your company outside the specific work you are hired to do. I don't think this is generally true. Both the company and the employee have to ensure that they are a good fit, you are asking the OP to lie about the fact that the company wont be a good fit for her. Given that we aren't in a capitalistic regime where the sole obligation is to money I'd do the right thing and just be honest about pros and cons and let her decide with full information. This is not actively harming the company, the company is harming itself by being awful.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
17
17
Is informing someone of all the pros and cons of a position REALLY against the companies interests, though? Doing so may prevent a situation where the person is hired on and leaves the company a week later, which would consume a lot of resources.
– CrazyPaste
yesterday
Is informing someone of all the pros and cons of a position REALLY against the companies interests, though? Doing so may prevent a situation where the person is hired on and leaves the company a week later, which would consume a lot of resources.
– CrazyPaste
yesterday
17
17
If you haven't noticed, companies have near 0 allegiance to their employees. Granted, they expect 100% loyalty from their employees, but very, very few show it to their employees. It's hard to buy into that one-way street.
– FreeMan
yesterday
If you haven't noticed, companies have near 0 allegiance to their employees. Granted, they expect 100% loyalty from their employees, but very, very few show it to their employees. It's hard to buy into that one-way street.
– FreeMan
yesterday
14
14
@cdkMoose Absolutely wrong. Your moral responsibility to be honest and treat people well always trumps loyalty to your employer. To do otherwise marks someone as a horrible human being.
– Gabe Sechan
yesterday
@cdkMoose Absolutely wrong. Your moral responsibility to be honest and treat people well always trumps loyalty to your employer. To do otherwise marks someone as a horrible human being.
– Gabe Sechan
yesterday
5
5
@mxyzplk Instead of taking the feedback and fixing the problem. OK.
– Konrad Rudolph
22 hours ago
@mxyzplk Instead of taking the feedback and fixing the problem. OK.
– Konrad Rudolph
22 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
I think the ethical thing would be to resign or at the very least ask somebody else to handle the hiring negotiations and process. You should not be in a position of trust while actively considering what is essentially sabotage, as much as I commend your protectiveness.
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
I think the ethical thing would be to resign or at the very least ask somebody else to handle the hiring negotiations and process. You should not be in a position of trust while actively considering what is essentially sabotage, as much as I commend your protectiveness.
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
I think the ethical thing would be to resign or at the very least ask somebody else to handle the hiring negotiations and process. You should not be in a position of trust while actively considering what is essentially sabotage, as much as I commend your protectiveness.
New contributor
I think the ethical thing would be to resign or at the very least ask somebody else to handle the hiring negotiations and process. You should not be in a position of trust while actively considering what is essentially sabotage, as much as I commend your protectiveness.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
Dan
291
291
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think you should name names - either of the company or the manager.
If there is a way you can direct the intern to this thread, you could say something like "Of course interviews should work both ways so be aware of that. Have a look at this cautionary tale that I happened across."
I repeat, I am no expert but this is probably what I would do.
I don't think avoiding the company name makes any difference. In this situation, both OP and intern know exactly what company is being addressed (and I think this would be obvious to any judge). The potential manager's identity might or might not be deducible from context. With our limited information, we probably won't be able to tell what would be the case. On the other hand, pointing to this SE question seems to have some merit, +1 for the idea. This way, OP avoids giving a specific advice while still providing all information needed for the intern to form an opinion of her own.
– Inarion
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think you should name names - either of the company or the manager.
If there is a way you can direct the intern to this thread, you could say something like "Of course interviews should work both ways so be aware of that. Have a look at this cautionary tale that I happened across."
I repeat, I am no expert but this is probably what I would do.
I don't think avoiding the company name makes any difference. In this situation, both OP and intern know exactly what company is being addressed (and I think this would be obvious to any judge). The potential manager's identity might or might not be deducible from context. With our limited information, we probably won't be able to tell what would be the case. On the other hand, pointing to this SE question seems to have some merit, +1 for the idea. This way, OP avoids giving a specific advice while still providing all information needed for the intern to form an opinion of her own.
– Inarion
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think you should name names - either of the company or the manager.
If there is a way you can direct the intern to this thread, you could say something like "Of course interviews should work both ways so be aware of that. Have a look at this cautionary tale that I happened across."
I repeat, I am no expert but this is probably what I would do.
I don't know the legal ramifications but I don't think you should name names - either of the company or the manager.
If there is a way you can direct the intern to this thread, you could say something like "Of course interviews should work both ways so be aware of that. Have a look at this cautionary tale that I happened across."
I repeat, I am no expert but this is probably what I would do.
answered 19 hours ago
chasly from UK
1546
1546
I don't think avoiding the company name makes any difference. In this situation, both OP and intern know exactly what company is being addressed (and I think this would be obvious to any judge). The potential manager's identity might or might not be deducible from context. With our limited information, we probably won't be able to tell what would be the case. On the other hand, pointing to this SE question seems to have some merit, +1 for the idea. This way, OP avoids giving a specific advice while still providing all information needed for the intern to form an opinion of her own.
– Inarion
17 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't think avoiding the company name makes any difference. In this situation, both OP and intern know exactly what company is being addressed (and I think this would be obvious to any judge). The potential manager's identity might or might not be deducible from context. With our limited information, we probably won't be able to tell what would be the case. On the other hand, pointing to this SE question seems to have some merit, +1 for the idea. This way, OP avoids giving a specific advice while still providing all information needed for the intern to form an opinion of her own.
– Inarion
17 hours ago
I don't think avoiding the company name makes any difference. In this situation, both OP and intern know exactly what company is being addressed (and I think this would be obvious to any judge). The potential manager's identity might or might not be deducible from context. With our limited information, we probably won't be able to tell what would be the case. On the other hand, pointing to this SE question seems to have some merit, +1 for the idea. This way, OP avoids giving a specific advice while still providing all information needed for the intern to form an opinion of her own.
– Inarion
17 hours ago
I don't think avoiding the company name makes any difference. In this situation, both OP and intern know exactly what company is being addressed (and I think this would be obvious to any judge). The potential manager's identity might or might not be deducible from context. With our limited information, we probably won't be able to tell what would be the case. On the other hand, pointing to this SE question seems to have some merit, +1 for the idea. This way, OP avoids giving a specific advice while still providing all information needed for the intern to form an opinion of her own.
– Inarion
17 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing; even if there isn't, this probably wouldn't look great for you to be doing.
That said, there is a difference between making an offer and recommending the offer, and that's in presentation. You could go into the meeting and say "hey, you got the offer! Good job! Here's the contents of the offer. I think it's really great because XYZ". You could also go into the meeting and say "We have decided to present you an offer. The contents of the offer are XYZ. Please let us know your decision." One statement of the offer obviously plays up the offer and makes it more attractive to take. The other one doesn't. (IANAL) You are probably obligated only to present the offer, but not to be energetic about it, so just don't.
5
"There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing." This is extremely location-specific advice. White-collar direct employment jobs typically have no employment contract in the U.S., for example.
– reirab
yesterday
@reirab I doubt anyone involved in the hiring process doesn't have a contract - in addition, that's just extra reason to be cautious, as with no contract, it can be terminated at the drop of a hat if they get found out to be doing something like this.
– UKMonkey
17 hours ago
@UKMonkey Your doubt would be unfounded in regards to the U.S. It's extremely common for people involved in the hiring process in the U.S. to not have a contract. Employment contracts are mostly only for blue-collar jobs and extremely high-level management in the U.S. The vast majority of people involved in hiring processes (myself included) don't work on contract. Of course, contractors always work on contract (by definition,) but they aren't employees of the company and are rarely involved in hiring processes.
– reirab
15 hours ago
@reirab thanks ... the US sounds like a scary place to work!
– UKMonkey
13 hours ago
@UKMonkey Not really. Companies have no incentive to fire employees who are actually doing their jobs well. Replacing employees is expensive. Especially so for most white-collar jobs.
– reirab
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing; even if there isn't, this probably wouldn't look great for you to be doing.
That said, there is a difference between making an offer and recommending the offer, and that's in presentation. You could go into the meeting and say "hey, you got the offer! Good job! Here's the contents of the offer. I think it's really great because XYZ". You could also go into the meeting and say "We have decided to present you an offer. The contents of the offer are XYZ. Please let us know your decision." One statement of the offer obviously plays up the offer and makes it more attractive to take. The other one doesn't. (IANAL) You are probably obligated only to present the offer, but not to be energetic about it, so just don't.
5
"There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing." This is extremely location-specific advice. White-collar direct employment jobs typically have no employment contract in the U.S., for example.
– reirab
yesterday
@reirab I doubt anyone involved in the hiring process doesn't have a contract - in addition, that's just extra reason to be cautious, as with no contract, it can be terminated at the drop of a hat if they get found out to be doing something like this.
– UKMonkey
17 hours ago
@UKMonkey Your doubt would be unfounded in regards to the U.S. It's extremely common for people involved in the hiring process in the U.S. to not have a contract. Employment contracts are mostly only for blue-collar jobs and extremely high-level management in the U.S. The vast majority of people involved in hiring processes (myself included) don't work on contract. Of course, contractors always work on contract (by definition,) but they aren't employees of the company and are rarely involved in hiring processes.
– reirab
15 hours ago
@reirab thanks ... the US sounds like a scary place to work!
– UKMonkey
13 hours ago
@UKMonkey Not really. Companies have no incentive to fire employees who are actually doing their jobs well. Replacing employees is expensive. Especially so for most white-collar jobs.
– reirab
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing; even if there isn't, this probably wouldn't look great for you to be doing.
That said, there is a difference between making an offer and recommending the offer, and that's in presentation. You could go into the meeting and say "hey, you got the offer! Good job! Here's the contents of the offer. I think it's really great because XYZ". You could also go into the meeting and say "We have decided to present you an offer. The contents of the offer are XYZ. Please let us know your decision." One statement of the offer obviously plays up the offer and makes it more attractive to take. The other one doesn't. (IANAL) You are probably obligated only to present the offer, but not to be energetic about it, so just don't.
There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing; even if there isn't, this probably wouldn't look great for you to be doing.
That said, there is a difference between making an offer and recommending the offer, and that's in presentation. You could go into the meeting and say "hey, you got the offer! Good job! Here's the contents of the offer. I think it's really great because XYZ". You could also go into the meeting and say "We have decided to present you an offer. The contents of the offer are XYZ. Please let us know your decision." One statement of the offer obviously plays up the offer and makes it more attractive to take. The other one doesn't. (IANAL) You are probably obligated only to present the offer, but not to be energetic about it, so just don't.
answered yesterday
Ertai87
5,103518
5,103518
5
"There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing." This is extremely location-specific advice. White-collar direct employment jobs typically have no employment contract in the U.S., for example.
– reirab
yesterday
@reirab I doubt anyone involved in the hiring process doesn't have a contract - in addition, that's just extra reason to be cautious, as with no contract, it can be terminated at the drop of a hat if they get found out to be doing something like this.
– UKMonkey
17 hours ago
@UKMonkey Your doubt would be unfounded in regards to the U.S. It's extremely common for people involved in the hiring process in the U.S. to not have a contract. Employment contracts are mostly only for blue-collar jobs and extremely high-level management in the U.S. The vast majority of people involved in hiring processes (myself included) don't work on contract. Of course, contractors always work on contract (by definition,) but they aren't employees of the company and are rarely involved in hiring processes.
– reirab
15 hours ago
@reirab thanks ... the US sounds like a scary place to work!
– UKMonkey
13 hours ago
@UKMonkey Not really. Companies have no incentive to fire employees who are actually doing their jobs well. Replacing employees is expensive. Especially so for most white-collar jobs.
– reirab
13 hours ago
add a comment |
5
"There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing." This is extremely location-specific advice. White-collar direct employment jobs typically have no employment contract in the U.S., for example.
– reirab
yesterday
@reirab I doubt anyone involved in the hiring process doesn't have a contract - in addition, that's just extra reason to be cautious, as with no contract, it can be terminated at the drop of a hat if they get found out to be doing something like this.
– UKMonkey
17 hours ago
@UKMonkey Your doubt would be unfounded in regards to the U.S. It's extremely common for people involved in the hiring process in the U.S. to not have a contract. Employment contracts are mostly only for blue-collar jobs and extremely high-level management in the U.S. The vast majority of people involved in hiring processes (myself included) don't work on contract. Of course, contractors always work on contract (by definition,) but they aren't employees of the company and are rarely involved in hiring processes.
– reirab
15 hours ago
@reirab thanks ... the US sounds like a scary place to work!
– UKMonkey
13 hours ago
@UKMonkey Not really. Companies have no incentive to fire employees who are actually doing their jobs well. Replacing employees is expensive. Especially so for most white-collar jobs.
– reirab
13 hours ago
5
5
"There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing." This is extremely location-specific advice. White-collar direct employment jobs typically have no employment contract in the U.S., for example.
– reirab
yesterday
"There's probably something in your contract that expressly forbids this sort of thing." This is extremely location-specific advice. White-collar direct employment jobs typically have no employment contract in the U.S., for example.
– reirab
yesterday
@reirab I doubt anyone involved in the hiring process doesn't have a contract - in addition, that's just extra reason to be cautious, as with no contract, it can be terminated at the drop of a hat if they get found out to be doing something like this.
– UKMonkey
17 hours ago
@reirab I doubt anyone involved in the hiring process doesn't have a contract - in addition, that's just extra reason to be cautious, as with no contract, it can be terminated at the drop of a hat if they get found out to be doing something like this.
– UKMonkey
17 hours ago
@UKMonkey Your doubt would be unfounded in regards to the U.S. It's extremely common for people involved in the hiring process in the U.S. to not have a contract. Employment contracts are mostly only for blue-collar jobs and extremely high-level management in the U.S. The vast majority of people involved in hiring processes (myself included) don't work on contract. Of course, contractors always work on contract (by definition,) but they aren't employees of the company and are rarely involved in hiring processes.
– reirab
15 hours ago
@UKMonkey Your doubt would be unfounded in regards to the U.S. It's extremely common for people involved in the hiring process in the U.S. to not have a contract. Employment contracts are mostly only for blue-collar jobs and extremely high-level management in the U.S. The vast majority of people involved in hiring processes (myself included) don't work on contract. Of course, contractors always work on contract (by definition,) but they aren't employees of the company and are rarely involved in hiring processes.
– reirab
15 hours ago
@reirab thanks ... the US sounds like a scary place to work!
– UKMonkey
13 hours ago
@reirab thanks ... the US sounds like a scary place to work!
– UKMonkey
13 hours ago
@UKMonkey Not really. Companies have no incentive to fire employees who are actually doing their jobs well. Replacing employees is expensive. Especially so for most white-collar jobs.
– reirab
13 hours ago
@UKMonkey Not really. Companies have no incentive to fire employees who are actually doing their jobs well. Replacing employees is expensive. Especially so for most white-collar jobs.
– reirab
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
You know this is somehow wrong, and you're looking for a way to do it anyway.
Since you haven't marked one of the other answers as accepted, here's mine.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it
Write up the offer and print it out on company stationary.
As you said, she deserves it.
You can't actually advise her to decline it - you know that or you would have done it already.
You can do other things like work to eliminate any guilt she may feel about declining it. If that happens to nudge her in the direction of declining it, well... you already think that's best for her right?
Use the company email to inform her that [company] is so pleased with the job she did that [we] are prepared to discuss an offer. As her former supervisor it is your privilege to discuss be the person make the offer to her. Say that you'd like to do this off site so there is less pressure. (Seriously there's nothing more awkward than someone asking, "So, did you take it?" as you're walking to the parking lot)
Suggest some well-lit coffee shop (anything not a bar, residence or restaurant). Tell her you expect it to take 30 minutes, but you're available for questions immediately or over the next few days.
Explicitly say that she will receive a written job offer when you sit down with her (reinforces that you're meeting for business reasons).
Explain that she WILL NOT be expected to accept or decline the offer at the meeting.
(This expectation gives her time to think about the subtle things you will be saying and discuss those with a parent/friend/etc.)
When you sit down with her:
First explain that she did such a wonderful job for you that you would be available as a reference not just for this job, but for any other job she might have applied for recently or will apply for in the future.
Be clear that your offer to be a reference is valid regardless of whether she accepts this offer.
Second explain that she would be reporting to [the jerk], and not to you if she accepts. Mention that you won't have much interaction going forward (if this is appropriate).
Then you can explain that internships 'are a sheltered experience'. Accepting this job means that she will be a regular employee and have to deal with all the junk that you have to (smile while saying it).
Then you give her the written offer.
As you hand it to her, tell her she can take it with her.
After that she's on her own.
This is her decision - you cannot in good conscience make this decision for her - which is why you can't tell her not to take it.
For all you know, that person who you think is a nightmare to work with
might have a totally different relationship with her. There's less than twenty people in the company, she has to at least be aware of that person, right?
Finally, let it go.
She's an adult now and needs to start reaping the rewards of her decisions - the good and the bad.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
You know this is somehow wrong, and you're looking for a way to do it anyway.
Since you haven't marked one of the other answers as accepted, here's mine.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it
Write up the offer and print it out on company stationary.
As you said, she deserves it.
You can't actually advise her to decline it - you know that or you would have done it already.
You can do other things like work to eliminate any guilt she may feel about declining it. If that happens to nudge her in the direction of declining it, well... you already think that's best for her right?
Use the company email to inform her that [company] is so pleased with the job she did that [we] are prepared to discuss an offer. As her former supervisor it is your privilege to discuss be the person make the offer to her. Say that you'd like to do this off site so there is less pressure. (Seriously there's nothing more awkward than someone asking, "So, did you take it?" as you're walking to the parking lot)
Suggest some well-lit coffee shop (anything not a bar, residence or restaurant). Tell her you expect it to take 30 minutes, but you're available for questions immediately or over the next few days.
Explicitly say that she will receive a written job offer when you sit down with her (reinforces that you're meeting for business reasons).
Explain that she WILL NOT be expected to accept or decline the offer at the meeting.
(This expectation gives her time to think about the subtle things you will be saying and discuss those with a parent/friend/etc.)
When you sit down with her:
First explain that she did such a wonderful job for you that you would be available as a reference not just for this job, but for any other job she might have applied for recently or will apply for in the future.
Be clear that your offer to be a reference is valid regardless of whether she accepts this offer.
Second explain that she would be reporting to [the jerk], and not to you if she accepts. Mention that you won't have much interaction going forward (if this is appropriate).
Then you can explain that internships 'are a sheltered experience'. Accepting this job means that she will be a regular employee and have to deal with all the junk that you have to (smile while saying it).
Then you give her the written offer.
As you hand it to her, tell her she can take it with her.
After that she's on her own.
This is her decision - you cannot in good conscience make this decision for her - which is why you can't tell her not to take it.
For all you know, that person who you think is a nightmare to work with
might have a totally different relationship with her. There's less than twenty people in the company, she has to at least be aware of that person, right?
Finally, let it go.
She's an adult now and needs to start reaping the rewards of her decisions - the good and the bad.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
You know this is somehow wrong, and you're looking for a way to do it anyway.
Since you haven't marked one of the other answers as accepted, here's mine.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it
Write up the offer and print it out on company stationary.
As you said, she deserves it.
You can't actually advise her to decline it - you know that or you would have done it already.
You can do other things like work to eliminate any guilt she may feel about declining it. If that happens to nudge her in the direction of declining it, well... you already think that's best for her right?
Use the company email to inform her that [company] is so pleased with the job she did that [we] are prepared to discuss an offer. As her former supervisor it is your privilege to discuss be the person make the offer to her. Say that you'd like to do this off site so there is less pressure. (Seriously there's nothing more awkward than someone asking, "So, did you take it?" as you're walking to the parking lot)
Suggest some well-lit coffee shop (anything not a bar, residence or restaurant). Tell her you expect it to take 30 minutes, but you're available for questions immediately or over the next few days.
Explicitly say that she will receive a written job offer when you sit down with her (reinforces that you're meeting for business reasons).
Explain that she WILL NOT be expected to accept or decline the offer at the meeting.
(This expectation gives her time to think about the subtle things you will be saying and discuss those with a parent/friend/etc.)
When you sit down with her:
First explain that she did such a wonderful job for you that you would be available as a reference not just for this job, but for any other job she might have applied for recently or will apply for in the future.
Be clear that your offer to be a reference is valid regardless of whether she accepts this offer.
Second explain that she would be reporting to [the jerk], and not to you if she accepts. Mention that you won't have much interaction going forward (if this is appropriate).
Then you can explain that internships 'are a sheltered experience'. Accepting this job means that she will be a regular employee and have to deal with all the junk that you have to (smile while saying it).
Then you give her the written offer.
As you hand it to her, tell her she can take it with her.
After that she's on her own.
This is her decision - you cannot in good conscience make this decision for her - which is why you can't tell her not to take it.
For all you know, that person who you think is a nightmare to work with
might have a totally different relationship with her. There's less than twenty people in the company, she has to at least be aware of that person, right?
Finally, let it go.
She's an adult now and needs to start reaping the rewards of her decisions - the good and the bad.
You know this is somehow wrong, and you're looking for a way to do it anyway.
Since you haven't marked one of the other answers as accepted, here's mine.
I'm considering making the offer while privately advising her to decline it
Write up the offer and print it out on company stationary.
As you said, she deserves it.
You can't actually advise her to decline it - you know that or you would have done it already.
You can do other things like work to eliminate any guilt she may feel about declining it. If that happens to nudge her in the direction of declining it, well... you already think that's best for her right?
Use the company email to inform her that [company] is so pleased with the job she did that [we] are prepared to discuss an offer. As her former supervisor it is your privilege to discuss be the person make the offer to her. Say that you'd like to do this off site so there is less pressure. (Seriously there's nothing more awkward than someone asking, "So, did you take it?" as you're walking to the parking lot)
Suggest some well-lit coffee shop (anything not a bar, residence or restaurant). Tell her you expect it to take 30 minutes, but you're available for questions immediately or over the next few days.
Explicitly say that she will receive a written job offer when you sit down with her (reinforces that you're meeting for business reasons).
Explain that she WILL NOT be expected to accept or decline the offer at the meeting.
(This expectation gives her time to think about the subtle things you will be saying and discuss those with a parent/friend/etc.)
When you sit down with her:
First explain that she did such a wonderful job for you that you would be available as a reference not just for this job, but for any other job she might have applied for recently or will apply for in the future.
Be clear that your offer to be a reference is valid regardless of whether she accepts this offer.
Second explain that she would be reporting to [the jerk], and not to you if she accepts. Mention that you won't have much interaction going forward (if this is appropriate).
Then you can explain that internships 'are a sheltered experience'. Accepting this job means that she will be a regular employee and have to deal with all the junk that you have to (smile while saying it).
Then you give her the written offer.
As you hand it to her, tell her she can take it with her.
After that she's on her own.
This is her decision - you cannot in good conscience make this decision for her - which is why you can't tell her not to take it.
For all you know, that person who you think is a nightmare to work with
might have a totally different relationship with her. There's less than twenty people in the company, she has to at least be aware of that person, right?
Finally, let it go.
She's an adult now and needs to start reaping the rewards of her decisions - the good and the bad.
answered 12 hours ago
J. Chris Compton
1,377312
1,377312
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I do think it's appropriate to talk to her, but you need to do so in the right context.
I have a practice when I interview candidates, work with interns, or extend job offers. I always set the stage by saying something along the lines of,
I want to make sure this process is a two way street. In representing the company, I am going to be evaluating your skills and making a decision on your fitness for this position. But, I also want to make sure that you have the opportunity to decide for yourself if this company and this offer is a good fit for you. Do you have any questions about the responsibilities, the work culture, or other aspects of the job that are important to you?
With very junior employees, or others who may not be well positioned to evaluate this via their own questioning (such as the employee you're considering), it's totally legitimate to plant some suggestions or leading questions.
In other words, I don't think it's appropriate to tell her, "you don't want to work here" but I do think it's completely appropriate, and in everyone's best interest, to help her ask some questions that will lead her to making the best decision for her, with a full understanding of the employment environment.
Also, to fully answer your question, I think it's important to ask yourself a few things in terms of the conclusion you've arrived at. Would be actually be a bad thing for her to work there? Or are you just assuming that?
working with a difficult manager can be a great learning experience for the employee. It's not something you'd wish on someone of course, but it can be a good opportunity for her to understand how to deal with difficult coworkers or superiors (which is a critically important skill that everyone should have)
working for a failing company can help her understand what makes companies fail, which may put her in a position to contribute some other employer in the future who may be starting to head down that path. I've worked for failing companies and while it's stressful, it's also incredibly eye opening
someone freshly out of college may simply need a job no matter how bad you think it is!
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I do think it's appropriate to talk to her, but you need to do so in the right context.
I have a practice when I interview candidates, work with interns, or extend job offers. I always set the stage by saying something along the lines of,
I want to make sure this process is a two way street. In representing the company, I am going to be evaluating your skills and making a decision on your fitness for this position. But, I also want to make sure that you have the opportunity to decide for yourself if this company and this offer is a good fit for you. Do you have any questions about the responsibilities, the work culture, or other aspects of the job that are important to you?
With very junior employees, or others who may not be well positioned to evaluate this via their own questioning (such as the employee you're considering), it's totally legitimate to plant some suggestions or leading questions.
In other words, I don't think it's appropriate to tell her, "you don't want to work here" but I do think it's completely appropriate, and in everyone's best interest, to help her ask some questions that will lead her to making the best decision for her, with a full understanding of the employment environment.
Also, to fully answer your question, I think it's important to ask yourself a few things in terms of the conclusion you've arrived at. Would be actually be a bad thing for her to work there? Or are you just assuming that?
working with a difficult manager can be a great learning experience for the employee. It's not something you'd wish on someone of course, but it can be a good opportunity for her to understand how to deal with difficult coworkers or superiors (which is a critically important skill that everyone should have)
working for a failing company can help her understand what makes companies fail, which may put her in a position to contribute some other employer in the future who may be starting to head down that path. I've worked for failing companies and while it's stressful, it's also incredibly eye opening
someone freshly out of college may simply need a job no matter how bad you think it is!
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I do think it's appropriate to talk to her, but you need to do so in the right context.
I have a practice when I interview candidates, work with interns, or extend job offers. I always set the stage by saying something along the lines of,
I want to make sure this process is a two way street. In representing the company, I am going to be evaluating your skills and making a decision on your fitness for this position. But, I also want to make sure that you have the opportunity to decide for yourself if this company and this offer is a good fit for you. Do you have any questions about the responsibilities, the work culture, or other aspects of the job that are important to you?
With very junior employees, or others who may not be well positioned to evaluate this via their own questioning (such as the employee you're considering), it's totally legitimate to plant some suggestions or leading questions.
In other words, I don't think it's appropriate to tell her, "you don't want to work here" but I do think it's completely appropriate, and in everyone's best interest, to help her ask some questions that will lead her to making the best decision for her, with a full understanding of the employment environment.
Also, to fully answer your question, I think it's important to ask yourself a few things in terms of the conclusion you've arrived at. Would be actually be a bad thing for her to work there? Or are you just assuming that?
working with a difficult manager can be a great learning experience for the employee. It's not something you'd wish on someone of course, but it can be a good opportunity for her to understand how to deal with difficult coworkers or superiors (which is a critically important skill that everyone should have)
working for a failing company can help her understand what makes companies fail, which may put her in a position to contribute some other employer in the future who may be starting to head down that path. I've worked for failing companies and while it's stressful, it's also incredibly eye opening
someone freshly out of college may simply need a job no matter how bad you think it is!
I do think it's appropriate to talk to her, but you need to do so in the right context.
I have a practice when I interview candidates, work with interns, or extend job offers. I always set the stage by saying something along the lines of,
I want to make sure this process is a two way street. In representing the company, I am going to be evaluating your skills and making a decision on your fitness for this position. But, I also want to make sure that you have the opportunity to decide for yourself if this company and this offer is a good fit for you. Do you have any questions about the responsibilities, the work culture, or other aspects of the job that are important to you?
With very junior employees, or others who may not be well positioned to evaluate this via their own questioning (such as the employee you're considering), it's totally legitimate to plant some suggestions or leading questions.
In other words, I don't think it's appropriate to tell her, "you don't want to work here" but I do think it's completely appropriate, and in everyone's best interest, to help her ask some questions that will lead her to making the best decision for her, with a full understanding of the employment environment.
Also, to fully answer your question, I think it's important to ask yourself a few things in terms of the conclusion you've arrived at. Would be actually be a bad thing for her to work there? Or are you just assuming that?
working with a difficult manager can be a great learning experience for the employee. It's not something you'd wish on someone of course, but it can be a good opportunity for her to understand how to deal with difficult coworkers or superiors (which is a critically important skill that everyone should have)
working for a failing company can help her understand what makes companies fail, which may put her in a position to contribute some other employer in the future who may be starting to head down that path. I've worked for failing companies and while it's stressful, it's also incredibly eye opening
someone freshly out of college may simply need a job no matter how bad you think it is!
answered 10 hours ago
dwizum
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7,92421937
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33
It's one thing hiding corporate dysfunction during an interview. Regardless of legalities and ethics, however, she surely must have obtained some insight as an intern.
– Laconic Droid
yesterday
17
If this other (nightmare) Manager is going to be managing her, would it not be prudent for the intern to meet with them first, before deciding whether or not to accept the offer? If it were me, I would certainly want to meet my prospective new Manager first, to get a feel for what to expect and how good the 'personality fit' would be. Because, the relationship with your direct Manager is so important.
– Time4Tea
yesterday
12
There's are two real problems with telling the candidate. Firstly they may not respect the absolute confidentiality of that information. Secondly they may think the OP is trying to put them off to e.g. get the position for a friend. The OP needs to be ready for potential big problems with doing this. It's the ethical thing to do, but it won't necessarily look that way to the candidate (and the OP's employer - or next employer (!) if word gets back to them).
– StephenG
yesterday
4
I'd be careful about any prognosis about a company's future unless you know its financials are so dire it has to shutdown in a few months for sure. Even that can change. I've heard people say similar things about companies that went on to stay in business and prosper for years to come. Sometimes people that feel miserable (or totally happy) in their position also over-estimate the problems / good work they see and that impact on the company as a whole. Not saying you are definitely wrong, but it's hard to be right with such things.
– Darkwing
yesterday
12
@LaconicDroid not necessarily, many young unexperienced people don't realize those warning signs.
– mathreadler
22 hours ago