step-wise vs. circle of fifths movement in bass line

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This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
enter image description here



But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?



It looks something like this (also in C maj):



enter image description here



And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):



enter image description here



If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.



Best,



286642










share|improve this question

















  • 1




    "But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
    – user19146
    Aug 17 at 7:02











  • @alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
    – Heather S.
    Aug 17 at 11:47










  • @alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
    – 286642
    Aug 17 at 12:14














up vote
3
down vote

favorite












This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
enter image description here



But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?



It looks something like this (also in C maj):



enter image description here



And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):



enter image description here



If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.



Best,



286642










share|improve this question

















  • 1




    "But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
    – user19146
    Aug 17 at 7:02











  • @alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
    – Heather S.
    Aug 17 at 11:47










  • @alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
    – 286642
    Aug 17 at 12:14












up vote
3
down vote

favorite









up vote
3
down vote

favorite











This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
enter image description here



But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?



It looks something like this (also in C maj):



enter image description here



And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):



enter image description here



If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.



Best,



286642










share|improve this question













This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
enter image description here



But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?



It looks something like this (also in C maj):



enter image description here



And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):



enter image description here



If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.



Best,



286642







chord-theory bass-voice






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Aug 17 at 0:34









286642

1007




1007







  • 1




    "But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
    – user19146
    Aug 17 at 7:02











  • @alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
    – Heather S.
    Aug 17 at 11:47










  • @alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
    – 286642
    Aug 17 at 12:14












  • 1




    "But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
    – user19146
    Aug 17 at 7:02











  • @alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
    – Heather S.
    Aug 17 at 11:47










  • @alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
    – 286642
    Aug 17 at 12:14







1




1




"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
– user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02





"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
– user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02













@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
– Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47




@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
– Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47












@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
– 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14




@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
– 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
4
down vote













Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.






share|improve this answer



























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.






    share|improve this answer



























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.



      Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.



      Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.



      Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.



      There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).



      But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.






      share|improve this answer




















      • Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
        – Tim
        Aug 17 at 7:11










      • See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
        – John Wu
        Aug 17 at 14:51

















      up vote
      0
      down vote













      In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.



      Hope this helps.






      share|improve this answer






















      • If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
        – Tim
        Aug 17 at 7:08










      Your Answer







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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      4
      down vote













      Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.






      share|improve this answer
























        up vote
        4
        down vote













        Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.






        share|improve this answer






















          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.






          share|improve this answer












          Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Aug 17 at 1:14









          ttw

          7,304729




          7,304729




















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.






              share|improve this answer
























                up vote
                2
                down vote













                Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.






                share|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote









                  Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.






                  share|improve this answer












                  Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Aug 17 at 0:43









                  Laurence Payne

                  27.3k1350




                  27.3k1350




















                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote













                      Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.



                      Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.



                      Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.



                      Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.



                      There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).



                      But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.






                      share|improve this answer




















                      • Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:11










                      • See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
                        – John Wu
                        Aug 17 at 14:51














                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote













                      Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.



                      Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.



                      Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.



                      Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.



                      There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).



                      But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.






                      share|improve this answer




















                      • Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:11










                      • See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
                        – John Wu
                        Aug 17 at 14:51












                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote









                      Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.



                      Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.



                      Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.



                      Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.



                      There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).



                      But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.






                      share|improve this answer












                      Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.



                      Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.



                      Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.



                      Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.



                      There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).



                      But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Aug 17 at 5:52









                      John Wu

                      1,28348




                      1,28348











                      • Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:11










                      • See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
                        – John Wu
                        Aug 17 at 14:51
















                      • Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:11










                      • See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
                        – John Wu
                        Aug 17 at 14:51















                      Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
                      – Tim
                      Aug 17 at 7:11




                      Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
                      – Tim
                      Aug 17 at 7:11












                      See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
                      – John Wu
                      Aug 17 at 14:51




                      See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
                      – John Wu
                      Aug 17 at 14:51










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.



                      Hope this helps.






                      share|improve this answer






















                      • If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:08














                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.



                      Hope this helps.






                      share|improve this answer






















                      • If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:08












                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote









                      In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.



                      Hope this helps.






                      share|improve this answer














                      In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.



                      Hope this helps.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Aug 17 at 19:23

























                      answered Aug 17 at 2:25









                      Kevin H

                      5876




                      5876











                      • If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:08
















                      • If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
                        – Tim
                        Aug 17 at 7:08















                      If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
                      – Tim
                      Aug 17 at 7:08




                      If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
                      – Tim
                      Aug 17 at 7:08

















                       

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