step-wise vs. circle of fifths movement in bass line
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This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?
It looks something like this (also in C maj):
And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):
If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.
Best,
286642
chord-theory bass-voice
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up vote
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favorite
This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?
It looks something like this (also in C maj):
And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):
If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.
Best,
286642
chord-theory bass-voice
1
"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
â user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02
@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
â Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47
@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
â 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?
It looks something like this (also in C maj):
And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):
If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.
Best,
286642
chord-theory bass-voice
This post got me thinking about root movement. It has been said time and again that root movement of an upward fourth and descending fifth are particularly satisfying, and obvious choices when working towards good voice leading. But are there situations in which a bass that moves by step is more appropriate? Sequences like the one below are what mostly come to mind (C maj):
But I can think of other examples . . . what about the chorus of Changes by David Bowie?
It looks something like this (also in C maj):
And it certainly is amazing. But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this (forgive me if this doesn't look pretty):
If anyone could elaborate on this concept (namely, the various effectiveness of stepwise bass vs. bass lines that follow the circle of fifths), then I would be very appreciative.
Best,
286642
chord-theory bass-voice
chord-theory bass-voice
asked Aug 17 at 0:34
286642
1007
1007
1
"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
â user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02
@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
â Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47
@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
â 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14
add a comment |Â
1
"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
â user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02
@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
â Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47
@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
â 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14
1
1
"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
â user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02
"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
â user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02
@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
â Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47
@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
â Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47
@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
â 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14
@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
â 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
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4
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Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
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Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.
Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.
Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.
Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.
There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).
But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.
Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:11
See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
â John Wu
Aug 17 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.
Hope this helps.
If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:08
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.
Both are nice. Both can be (and have been) used with the same root progression. Take the "La Folia" progression: i,V,i,VII,III,VII,i,V,.... One bass progression is 1,5,1,7,3,7,1,5.... Another is 1,#7,1,2,3,2,1,#7,1. The second case makes a nice discant to the first bass line.
answered Aug 17 at 1:14
ttw
7,304729
7,304729
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.
Not a lot to say except that yes, V - I bass lines are good and strong, and so are stepwise ones. I wouldn't consider 'traditional theory' preferred one or the other.
answered Aug 17 at 0:43
Laurence Payne
27.3k1350
27.3k1350
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.
Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.
Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.
Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.
There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).
But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.
Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:11
See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
â John Wu
Aug 17 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.
Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.
Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.
Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.
There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).
But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.
Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:11
See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
â John Wu
Aug 17 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.
Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.
Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.
Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.
There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).
But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.
Motion by fifth is much easier to manage in four voice harmony, if you are following the western-tradition voice leading rules. But stepwise motion is possible, with some caveats.
Stepwise motion with the root in the bass is problematic because it will usually result in parallel fifths, which are forbidden (and all over the place in your first example, by the way). In a typical IV-V progression, the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass in order to avoid this. Just going up continuously is very difficult.
Stepwise motion is also do-able with the third in the bass, and doing this continuously is sometimes called parallel sixths. When voice leading with parallel sixths, you can even discard the customary predominant-dominant-tonic ordering, because it is considered sequential instead of progressive harmony.
Another possibility is stepwise motion in the bass where the bass note alternates in function. For example, Pachabel's Canon is written as a descending bass line where every odd-numbered chord is in root position and every other chord is in 63 position. This results in the sequence I V VI III IV I, which you may recognize from a whole bunch of other songs. This sequence is sometimes called "Descending 5-6 syncope" because it descends and alternates between 53 and 63 chords.
There are ascending versions as well (for example, Tiptoe through the Tulips).
But just straight chords up and down the scale with the bass in the root? Pretty rare. From a voice-leading perspective, very hard to pull off.
answered Aug 17 at 5:52
John Wu
1,28348
1,28348
Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:11
See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
â John Wu
Aug 17 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:11
See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
â John Wu
Aug 17 at 14:51
Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:11
Parallel fifths forbidden? Not in some types of music, where they abound.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:11
See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
â John Wu
Aug 17 at 14:51
See paragraph above "if you are following the western tradition voice leading rules," which of course are not obligatory to any artist.
â John Wu
Aug 17 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.
Hope this helps.
If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:08
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.
Hope this helps.
If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:08
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.
Hope this helps.
In my experience and training, the circle of fifths progressions are more important in the overall chord progression. However, you can have good circle-of-fifths progressions and still have very smooth step wise bass voice leading by using inversions (Bach seems to have been excellent at this). I was taught to make the overall root harmonies follow circle of fifths, but make the vocal parts have smooth leading.
Hope this helps.
edited Aug 17 at 19:23
answered Aug 17 at 2:25
Kevin H
5876
5876
If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:08
add a comment |Â
If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:08
If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:08
If bass guitar had been around in Bach's day, he'd have been one of the best bassists in the world.
â Tim
Aug 17 at 7:08
add a comment |Â
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1
"But wouldn't traditional music theory have pushed him to write a bass line that looks more like this " No - not unless he had only read the very first lesson of a modern harmony textbook, and hadn't progressed beyond "chords in root position only". (Also note, in your proposed example the third bass note should be F not C!)
â user19146
Aug 17 at 7:02
@alephzero, according to the OP's question, he is right making the bass note of the third chord a C because he is talking about bass line movement of fourths and fifths. An F there would make movement of a 2nd or 7th depending on direction.
â Heather S.
Aug 17 at 11:47
@alephzero, thanks for the comment. I decided to make it an IV6/4 chord so that I could still have the upward 4th movement. I was doing this for example's sake, because the alternative would have been the stepwise movement from G to F which I was trying to contrast the example with. That brings me to another question, though, so thank you. Does the upward fourth/downward fifth movement suggestion only apply to chords in root position? Thanks!
â 286642
Aug 17 at 12:14