Does there exist a right triangle with area 7 and perimeter 12?

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This question is really trivial. I can prove that there is no right triangle with area 7 and perimeter 12, but what I do is solve the following system: if $a$, $b$ and $c$ are, respectively, the two legs and hypotenuse of such a triangle, then



$$a^2 + b^2 = c^2,$$
$$a + b +c = 12,$$
$$ab = 14$$



It is easy (although a bit boring and long) to see that there are no real solutions to this system.



But I feel that there is a simple answer to this question - perhaps using the triangle inequality - but I just cannot see it.










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    "it is easy". Citation needed
    – Eric Duminil
    Aug 17 at 15:36














up vote
13
down vote

favorite
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This question is really trivial. I can prove that there is no right triangle with area 7 and perimeter 12, but what I do is solve the following system: if $a$, $b$ and $c$ are, respectively, the two legs and hypotenuse of such a triangle, then



$$a^2 + b^2 = c^2,$$
$$a + b +c = 12,$$
$$ab = 14$$



It is easy (although a bit boring and long) to see that there are no real solutions to this system.



But I feel that there is a simple answer to this question - perhaps using the triangle inequality - but I just cannot see it.










share|cite|improve this question



















  • 2




    "it is easy". Citation needed
    – Eric Duminil
    Aug 17 at 15:36












up vote
13
down vote

favorite
2









up vote
13
down vote

favorite
2






2





This question is really trivial. I can prove that there is no right triangle with area 7 and perimeter 12, but what I do is solve the following system: if $a$, $b$ and $c$ are, respectively, the two legs and hypotenuse of such a triangle, then



$$a^2 + b^2 = c^2,$$
$$a + b +c = 12,$$
$$ab = 14$$



It is easy (although a bit boring and long) to see that there are no real solutions to this system.



But I feel that there is a simple answer to this question - perhaps using the triangle inequality - but I just cannot see it.










share|cite|improve this question















This question is really trivial. I can prove that there is no right triangle with area 7 and perimeter 12, but what I do is solve the following system: if $a$, $b$ and $c$ are, respectively, the two legs and hypotenuse of such a triangle, then



$$a^2 + b^2 = c^2,$$
$$a + b +c = 12,$$
$$ab = 14$$



It is easy (although a bit boring and long) to see that there are no real solutions to this system.



But I feel that there is a simple answer to this question - perhaps using the triangle inequality - but I just cannot see it.







algebra-precalculus geometry






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edited Aug 17 at 16:22









psmears

70349




70349










asked Aug 17 at 2:35









Lucas

481312




481312







  • 2




    "it is easy". Citation needed
    – Eric Duminil
    Aug 17 at 15:36












  • 2




    "it is easy". Citation needed
    – Eric Duminil
    Aug 17 at 15:36







2




2




"it is easy". Citation needed
– Eric Duminil
Aug 17 at 15:36




"it is easy". Citation needed
– Eric Duminil
Aug 17 at 15:36










10 Answers
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I'm not sure if this counts as a "simple answer", but let $x$ be the length of one leg of a right triangle of area $7$; then the other leg is $frac14x$, and the hypotenuse is $sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$, so the perimeter is given by the function
$$P(x) = x + frac14x + sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$$



Asymptotically, we have $lim_xto 0 P(x) = +infty$ and $lim_xtoinfty P(x) = +infty$, and intuitively it seems clear that the absolute minimum occurs when the two legs of the triangle are equal in length, i.e. when $x=sqrt14$. At this value, we have
$$P(sqrt14) = 2sqrt14 +2sqrt7$$
This is the smallest possible perimeter for a right triangle of area $7$. It remains only to convince yourself that this number is greater than $12$.






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    If the perimeter is $12$, the triangle of maximum area is the equilateral triangle of side $4$ which has area $2times 2sqrt 3lt 7$ (square both sides $48lt 49$)



    Now it is a question of how you show that the triangle of maximum area is equilateral. First fix a base AB. The third point C lies on an ellipse, and symmetry/convexity show that the maximum area is if the two remaining sides AC and BC are equal. So if the sides are not equal, you will get a greater area by averaging the shortest and longest. For maximum area (no further gains) all sides must be equal - hence equilateral.




    In summary, a more formal way of showing that the maximal area of a triangle of fixed perimeter is reached when the triangle is equilateral is to go via Heron's formula (the area of a triangle as a function of its sides) and AM/GM. With the perimeter $2s=a+b+c$ fixed, note that $(-a+b+c)+(a-b+c)+(a+b-c)=2s$ and the product of the three terms in brackets is therefore greatest when they are equal.



    Heron's formula is area =$sqrt s(s-a)(s-b)(s-c)$






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    • This is a much better answer than mine. Finding the maximum area for a given perimeter is much more straightforward than finding the minimum perimeter for a given area. :)
      – mweiss
      Aug 17 at 17:56










    • @mweiss It's horses for courses - here the bound is good enough, which is fine. But there are cases for which this approach would not work and a more detailed analysis would be necessary. You can't always tell easily in advance.
      – Mark Bennet
      Aug 17 at 18:29











    • Showing that shortening the base and lengthening the other two sides (or vice versa) does not increase area is a bit of a pain. You have to show that any such transformation of side length (keeping the sum intact) can be reversed by successivly fixing a base and transferring length from the shorter side to a longer side of the remaining 2 sides (which I believe is true, just annoying to prove). Or is there an easier way? (your argument shows that 2-side manipulation cannot increase area unless they move towards equal; showing it for 3 is my issue)
      – Yakk
      Aug 17 at 18:33











    • @Yakk You don't need to do this. The dynamics here are if the three sides are not equal you can choose the middle side as base an increase the area by equalising the others. So no non-equilateral triangle can have maximum area for given perimeter. This method of optimising a three parameter problem by fixing one and showing that the others need to be equal, and concluding that all are equal at the critical point, is not particularly elegant in general, but works more often than it ought. Heron and AM/GM will do it "properly" here as noted.
      – Mark Bennet
      Aug 17 at 18:38


















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    Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



    What about $$
    beginalign
    a&=4+sqrt2\
    b&=4-sqrt2\
    c&=6
    endalign
    $$






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    • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
      – Hurkyl
      Aug 17 at 3:00






    • 2




      @Hurkyl Not really. Look at the first sentence in the body of the question. The equation for the perimeter seems to be wrong. I pointed that out in a comment.
      – saulspatz
      Aug 17 at 3:02










    • Oh gosh, my bad. There is indeed an error. Thank you
      – Lucas
      Aug 17 at 3:03







    • 4




      I got really confused seeing this answer. Then I realized the question was edited to replace perimeter 14 with 12.
      – Sunreef
      Aug 17 at 7:22










    • @DavidRicherby Thanks for the edit.
      – saulspatz
      Aug 17 at 15:50

















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    If the area was $7$ and the perimeter was $12$, the radius of the inscribed circle would be $14/12$ (exercise: why?). The circle is on the picture below.



    On the other hand you can create any possible right triangle with perimeter $12$ by picking a point $H$ on the arc between $U$ and $V$ ($T$ is the center) and plotting a hypotenuse tangent to the arc at $H$ (exercise: why is the perimeter independent of $H$, if $H$ is on the arc?).



    Imagine you move $H$ on the arc, generating all possible triangles. None of them would have the given circle as its inscribed circle. The radius of the circle is just to large (or the radius of the arc is too small).



    triange, circle, arc






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      Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



      There is indeed such a triangle.



      The isosceles right triangle with legs $14/(2+sqrt2)$ has perimeter $14$ and area



      $$
      frac12left(frac142+sqrt2right)^2=147-98sqrt2approx8.4;.
      $$



      On the other hand, a right triangle with perimeter $14$ can be made to have arbitrarily small area by making one of the legs arbitrarily small. The right triangles with perimeter $14$ can be parametrized by the length of the shorter leg. The area is a continuous function of this parameter. By the intermediate value theorem, there is a right triangle with perimeter $14$ with some intermediate length of the shorter leg that has area $7$.






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      • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
        – Hurkyl
        Aug 17 at 3:00










      • @Hurkyl: See saulspatz's comment to your identical comment under this answer.
        – joriki
        Aug 17 at 3:30










      • And see Lucas's response, comment on the OP, and updated question.
        – Hurkyl
        Aug 17 at 3:31










      • @Hurkyl: I do see that. I was merely pointing out that I answered the question that was at the time both the question in the title and the question in the text. Now that both have been edited, others can answer the edited question.
        – joriki
        Aug 17 at 3:33










      • joriki, good answer - this was the tack I thought of. The only change to your answer I would suggest is to mention that the isosceles right triangle has the maximum area of any right triangle. you mentioned that shorter legs would have less area, but this would explain why you chose the isosceles to begin with.
        – Jim
        Aug 17 at 13:08

















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      $$a+b=12-c$$
      $$(a^2+b^2)+2ab=(a+b)^2=c^2-24c+144$$
      $$c^2+28=c^2-24c+144$$
      $$c=frac296$$
      $$a+b=frac436implies (a,b,c)=(k,frac436-k,frac296)$$
      Since $c>a, c>b$, $$kin(0, frac296)$$






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      • 1




        however, the found $a=k, b=frac436-k$ must satisfy $ab=14$, for which there will be no real $k$? it implies $c$ must be different...
        – farruhota
        Aug 17 at 4:23







      • 1




        That is the way I proved there is no right triangle satisfying the conditions, since $12 = ab = (46/6-k)k$ holds if and only if k is a complex number.
        – Lucas
        Aug 17 at 8:08

















      up vote
      2
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      Given a general triangle with
      inradius $r$, circumradius $R$
      and semiperimeter $rho=tfrac12(a+b+c)$,
      the lengths of its sides $a,b,c$ can be found as
      three roots of the cubic equation



      beginalign
      x^3-2rho,x^2+(rho^2+r^2+4,r,R),x-4,rrho,R
      &=0
      tag1label1
      .
      endalign



      For the right triangle
      the equation eqref1
      can be simplified using a well-known condition



      beginalign
      R&=tfrac12(rho-r)
      tag2label2
      endalign
      as follows:



      beginalign
      (x+r-rho)(x^2-(r+rho)x+2rrho)
      &=0
      tag3label3
      .
      endalign



      The first root, provided by the linear term in eqref3
      is the size of hypotenuse,



      beginalign
      c&=rho-r
      ,
      endalign



      the other two sides must be



      beginalign
      a,b&=tfrac12left(r+rhopmsqrtr^2-6rrho+rho^2right)
      .
      endalign



      Or, in terms of the area $S$ and perimeter $p$,



      beginalign
      c&=tfrac12p-tfrac2Sp
      ,\
      a,b&=
      frac4S+p^2pmsqrtp^4-24Sp^2+16S^24p
      tag4label4
      .
      endalign



      So, given $S=7$, $p=12$ we get



      beginalign
      c&=tfrac296
      ,\
      a,b&=tfrac112(43pmsqrt167,i)
      ,
      endalign



      thus, the right triangle with declared properties is impossible.



      Using eqref4 it is trivial to find out that
      the right triangle with $S=7$, $p=14$
      has $c=6$, $a,b=4pmsqrt2$.



      And as a bonus, the right triangle with $p=13$
      is also valid and has side lengths



      beginalign
      c&=tfrac14126approx 5.423
      ,\
      a&=tfrac152(197-sqrt953)approx 3.195
      ,\
      b&=tfrac152(197+sqrt953)approx 4.382
      endalign



      and is just slightly bigger than
      the famous $3-4-5$ right triangle.






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        up vote
        1
        down vote













        Let me fill in a missing detail from the answer of @mweiss, namely, that a non-isosceles right triangle of perimeter $17$ does not have minimal area among all right triangles of perimeter $17$. And the specific value of perimeter does not matter for this purpose, so I'll do it for perimeter $p$.



        Letting the legs of the triangle be $a,b$, from the Pythagorean theorem we get
        $$a^2 + b^2 = (p-a-b)^2
        $$
        and simplifying we get
        $$2p a + 2p b - 2ab = (2p)^2
        $$
        Differentiating implicitly with respect to $a$ we get
        $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 2b - 2 a fracdbda = 0
        $$
        and so
        $$fracdbda = -fracp-bp-a qquad(*)
        $$
        Since the area is $A=fracab2$ we also get
        $$2pa + 2pb - 4A = (2p)^2
        $$
        Differentiating with respect to $a$ we get
        $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 4 fracdAda = 0
        $$
        Assuming $A$ is a minimum we get
        $$2p + 2p fracdbda = 0
        $$
        and so $fracdbda=-1$. Combining this with $(*)$ and simplifying we get
        $$a=b
        $$






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          up vote
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          down vote













          The triangle is two adjacent sides and one diagonal of a rectangle. As you pointed out, the product of the two legs is 14. This is the rectangle's area.



          Making the rectangle a square minimises the sum of the triangle's legs and also minimises the rectangle's diagonal (the triangle's hypotenuse). This thus minimises the triangle's perimeter. Each leg is $sqrt14$ and the hypotenuse is $sqrt28$. This gives a perimeter $>12.7$. Thus no such triangle with perimeter 12 exists.






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            WLOG let $c>a>b$
            $$14=abspace (0)$$
            $$a+b+c=12space (1)$$
            $$3c>12space (2)$$
            $$c>4space (3)$$
            $$a+b+c>4+a+bspace (4)$$
            $$12>4+a+bspace (5)$$
            $$8>a+bspace (6)$$
            $$4>fraca+b2space (7)$$
            $$16>left(fraca+b2right)^2space (8)$$
            $$16>fraca^2+2ab+b^24space (9)$$
            $$2>fraca^2-2ab+b^24space(10)=(9)-(0)$$
            $$2>left(fraca-b2right)^2space (11)$$
            $$sqrt2>fraca-b2space (12)$$
            $$4+sqrt2>aspace (13)= (7)+(12) $$
            $$4-sqrt2>bspace (14)=(7)-(12)$$
            $$14>abspacespace (15)=(13)cdot (14)$$
            (15) contradicts (0) QED






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              10 Answers
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              10 Answers
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              up vote
              21
              down vote













              I'm not sure if this counts as a "simple answer", but let $x$ be the length of one leg of a right triangle of area $7$; then the other leg is $frac14x$, and the hypotenuse is $sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$, so the perimeter is given by the function
              $$P(x) = x + frac14x + sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$$



              Asymptotically, we have $lim_xto 0 P(x) = +infty$ and $lim_xtoinfty P(x) = +infty$, and intuitively it seems clear that the absolute minimum occurs when the two legs of the triangle are equal in length, i.e. when $x=sqrt14$. At this value, we have
              $$P(sqrt14) = 2sqrt14 +2sqrt7$$
              This is the smallest possible perimeter for a right triangle of area $7$. It remains only to convince yourself that this number is greater than $12$.






              share|cite|improve this answer


























                up vote
                21
                down vote













                I'm not sure if this counts as a "simple answer", but let $x$ be the length of one leg of a right triangle of area $7$; then the other leg is $frac14x$, and the hypotenuse is $sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$, so the perimeter is given by the function
                $$P(x) = x + frac14x + sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$$



                Asymptotically, we have $lim_xto 0 P(x) = +infty$ and $lim_xtoinfty P(x) = +infty$, and intuitively it seems clear that the absolute minimum occurs when the two legs of the triangle are equal in length, i.e. when $x=sqrt14$. At this value, we have
                $$P(sqrt14) = 2sqrt14 +2sqrt7$$
                This is the smallest possible perimeter for a right triangle of area $7$. It remains only to convince yourself that this number is greater than $12$.






                share|cite|improve this answer
























                  up vote
                  21
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  21
                  down vote









                  I'm not sure if this counts as a "simple answer", but let $x$ be the length of one leg of a right triangle of area $7$; then the other leg is $frac14x$, and the hypotenuse is $sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$, so the perimeter is given by the function
                  $$P(x) = x + frac14x + sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$$



                  Asymptotically, we have $lim_xto 0 P(x) = +infty$ and $lim_xtoinfty P(x) = +infty$, and intuitively it seems clear that the absolute minimum occurs when the two legs of the triangle are equal in length, i.e. when $x=sqrt14$. At this value, we have
                  $$P(sqrt14) = 2sqrt14 +2sqrt7$$
                  This is the smallest possible perimeter for a right triangle of area $7$. It remains only to convince yourself that this number is greater than $12$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  I'm not sure if this counts as a "simple answer", but let $x$ be the length of one leg of a right triangle of area $7$; then the other leg is $frac14x$, and the hypotenuse is $sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$, so the perimeter is given by the function
                  $$P(x) = x + frac14x + sqrtx^2 + left(frac14xright)^2$$



                  Asymptotically, we have $lim_xto 0 P(x) = +infty$ and $lim_xtoinfty P(x) = +infty$, and intuitively it seems clear that the absolute minimum occurs when the two legs of the triangle are equal in length, i.e. when $x=sqrt14$. At this value, we have
                  $$P(sqrt14) = 2sqrt14 +2sqrt7$$
                  This is the smallest possible perimeter for a right triangle of area $7$. It remains only to convince yourself that this number is greater than $12$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Aug 17 at 4:53

























                  answered Aug 17 at 3:39









                  mweiss

                  17.4k23268




                  17.4k23268




















                      up vote
                      17
                      down vote













                      If the perimeter is $12$, the triangle of maximum area is the equilateral triangle of side $4$ which has area $2times 2sqrt 3lt 7$ (square both sides $48lt 49$)



                      Now it is a question of how you show that the triangle of maximum area is equilateral. First fix a base AB. The third point C lies on an ellipse, and symmetry/convexity show that the maximum area is if the two remaining sides AC and BC are equal. So if the sides are not equal, you will get a greater area by averaging the shortest and longest. For maximum area (no further gains) all sides must be equal - hence equilateral.




                      In summary, a more formal way of showing that the maximal area of a triangle of fixed perimeter is reached when the triangle is equilateral is to go via Heron's formula (the area of a triangle as a function of its sides) and AM/GM. With the perimeter $2s=a+b+c$ fixed, note that $(-a+b+c)+(a-b+c)+(a+b-c)=2s$ and the product of the three terms in brackets is therefore greatest when they are equal.



                      Heron's formula is area =$sqrt s(s-a)(s-b)(s-c)$






                      share|cite|improve this answer






















                      • This is a much better answer than mine. Finding the maximum area for a given perimeter is much more straightforward than finding the minimum perimeter for a given area. :)
                        – mweiss
                        Aug 17 at 17:56










                      • @mweiss It's horses for courses - here the bound is good enough, which is fine. But there are cases for which this approach would not work and a more detailed analysis would be necessary. You can't always tell easily in advance.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:29











                      • Showing that shortening the base and lengthening the other two sides (or vice versa) does not increase area is a bit of a pain. You have to show that any such transformation of side length (keeping the sum intact) can be reversed by successivly fixing a base and transferring length from the shorter side to a longer side of the remaining 2 sides (which I believe is true, just annoying to prove). Or is there an easier way? (your argument shows that 2-side manipulation cannot increase area unless they move towards equal; showing it for 3 is my issue)
                        – Yakk
                        Aug 17 at 18:33











                      • @Yakk You don't need to do this. The dynamics here are if the three sides are not equal you can choose the middle side as base an increase the area by equalising the others. So no non-equilateral triangle can have maximum area for given perimeter. This method of optimising a three parameter problem by fixing one and showing that the others need to be equal, and concluding that all are equal at the critical point, is not particularly elegant in general, but works more often than it ought. Heron and AM/GM will do it "properly" here as noted.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:38















                      up vote
                      17
                      down vote













                      If the perimeter is $12$, the triangle of maximum area is the equilateral triangle of side $4$ which has area $2times 2sqrt 3lt 7$ (square both sides $48lt 49$)



                      Now it is a question of how you show that the triangle of maximum area is equilateral. First fix a base AB. The third point C lies on an ellipse, and symmetry/convexity show that the maximum area is if the two remaining sides AC and BC are equal. So if the sides are not equal, you will get a greater area by averaging the shortest and longest. For maximum area (no further gains) all sides must be equal - hence equilateral.




                      In summary, a more formal way of showing that the maximal area of a triangle of fixed perimeter is reached when the triangle is equilateral is to go via Heron's formula (the area of a triangle as a function of its sides) and AM/GM. With the perimeter $2s=a+b+c$ fixed, note that $(-a+b+c)+(a-b+c)+(a+b-c)=2s$ and the product of the three terms in brackets is therefore greatest when they are equal.



                      Heron's formula is area =$sqrt s(s-a)(s-b)(s-c)$






                      share|cite|improve this answer






















                      • This is a much better answer than mine. Finding the maximum area for a given perimeter is much more straightforward than finding the minimum perimeter for a given area. :)
                        – mweiss
                        Aug 17 at 17:56










                      • @mweiss It's horses for courses - here the bound is good enough, which is fine. But there are cases for which this approach would not work and a more detailed analysis would be necessary. You can't always tell easily in advance.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:29











                      • Showing that shortening the base and lengthening the other two sides (or vice versa) does not increase area is a bit of a pain. You have to show that any such transformation of side length (keeping the sum intact) can be reversed by successivly fixing a base and transferring length from the shorter side to a longer side of the remaining 2 sides (which I believe is true, just annoying to prove). Or is there an easier way? (your argument shows that 2-side manipulation cannot increase area unless they move towards equal; showing it for 3 is my issue)
                        – Yakk
                        Aug 17 at 18:33











                      • @Yakk You don't need to do this. The dynamics here are if the three sides are not equal you can choose the middle side as base an increase the area by equalising the others. So no non-equilateral triangle can have maximum area for given perimeter. This method of optimising a three parameter problem by fixing one and showing that the others need to be equal, and concluding that all are equal at the critical point, is not particularly elegant in general, but works more often than it ought. Heron and AM/GM will do it "properly" here as noted.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:38













                      up vote
                      17
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      17
                      down vote









                      If the perimeter is $12$, the triangle of maximum area is the equilateral triangle of side $4$ which has area $2times 2sqrt 3lt 7$ (square both sides $48lt 49$)



                      Now it is a question of how you show that the triangle of maximum area is equilateral. First fix a base AB. The third point C lies on an ellipse, and symmetry/convexity show that the maximum area is if the two remaining sides AC and BC are equal. So if the sides are not equal, you will get a greater area by averaging the shortest and longest. For maximum area (no further gains) all sides must be equal - hence equilateral.




                      In summary, a more formal way of showing that the maximal area of a triangle of fixed perimeter is reached when the triangle is equilateral is to go via Heron's formula (the area of a triangle as a function of its sides) and AM/GM. With the perimeter $2s=a+b+c$ fixed, note that $(-a+b+c)+(a-b+c)+(a+b-c)=2s$ and the product of the three terms in brackets is therefore greatest when they are equal.



                      Heron's formula is area =$sqrt s(s-a)(s-b)(s-c)$






                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      If the perimeter is $12$, the triangle of maximum area is the equilateral triangle of side $4$ which has area $2times 2sqrt 3lt 7$ (square both sides $48lt 49$)



                      Now it is a question of how you show that the triangle of maximum area is equilateral. First fix a base AB. The third point C lies on an ellipse, and symmetry/convexity show that the maximum area is if the two remaining sides AC and BC are equal. So if the sides are not equal, you will get a greater area by averaging the shortest and longest. For maximum area (no further gains) all sides must be equal - hence equilateral.




                      In summary, a more formal way of showing that the maximal area of a triangle of fixed perimeter is reached when the triangle is equilateral is to go via Heron's formula (the area of a triangle as a function of its sides) and AM/GM. With the perimeter $2s=a+b+c$ fixed, note that $(-a+b+c)+(a-b+c)+(a+b-c)=2s$ and the product of the three terms in brackets is therefore greatest when they are equal.



                      Heron's formula is area =$sqrt s(s-a)(s-b)(s-c)$







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Aug 17 at 16:51

























                      answered Aug 17 at 7:57









                      Mark Bennet

                      77.5k774174




                      77.5k774174











                      • This is a much better answer than mine. Finding the maximum area for a given perimeter is much more straightforward than finding the minimum perimeter for a given area. :)
                        – mweiss
                        Aug 17 at 17:56










                      • @mweiss It's horses for courses - here the bound is good enough, which is fine. But there are cases for which this approach would not work and a more detailed analysis would be necessary. You can't always tell easily in advance.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:29











                      • Showing that shortening the base and lengthening the other two sides (or vice versa) does not increase area is a bit of a pain. You have to show that any such transformation of side length (keeping the sum intact) can be reversed by successivly fixing a base and transferring length from the shorter side to a longer side of the remaining 2 sides (which I believe is true, just annoying to prove). Or is there an easier way? (your argument shows that 2-side manipulation cannot increase area unless they move towards equal; showing it for 3 is my issue)
                        – Yakk
                        Aug 17 at 18:33











                      • @Yakk You don't need to do this. The dynamics here are if the three sides are not equal you can choose the middle side as base an increase the area by equalising the others. So no non-equilateral triangle can have maximum area for given perimeter. This method of optimising a three parameter problem by fixing one and showing that the others need to be equal, and concluding that all are equal at the critical point, is not particularly elegant in general, but works more often than it ought. Heron and AM/GM will do it "properly" here as noted.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:38

















                      • This is a much better answer than mine. Finding the maximum area for a given perimeter is much more straightforward than finding the minimum perimeter for a given area. :)
                        – mweiss
                        Aug 17 at 17:56










                      • @mweiss It's horses for courses - here the bound is good enough, which is fine. But there are cases for which this approach would not work and a more detailed analysis would be necessary. You can't always tell easily in advance.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:29











                      • Showing that shortening the base and lengthening the other two sides (or vice versa) does not increase area is a bit of a pain. You have to show that any such transformation of side length (keeping the sum intact) can be reversed by successivly fixing a base and transferring length from the shorter side to a longer side of the remaining 2 sides (which I believe is true, just annoying to prove). Or is there an easier way? (your argument shows that 2-side manipulation cannot increase area unless they move towards equal; showing it for 3 is my issue)
                        – Yakk
                        Aug 17 at 18:33











                      • @Yakk You don't need to do this. The dynamics here are if the three sides are not equal you can choose the middle side as base an increase the area by equalising the others. So no non-equilateral triangle can have maximum area for given perimeter. This method of optimising a three parameter problem by fixing one and showing that the others need to be equal, and concluding that all are equal at the critical point, is not particularly elegant in general, but works more often than it ought. Heron and AM/GM will do it "properly" here as noted.
                        – Mark Bennet
                        Aug 17 at 18:38
















                      This is a much better answer than mine. Finding the maximum area for a given perimeter is much more straightforward than finding the minimum perimeter for a given area. :)
                      – mweiss
                      Aug 17 at 17:56




                      This is a much better answer than mine. Finding the maximum area for a given perimeter is much more straightforward than finding the minimum perimeter for a given area. :)
                      – mweiss
                      Aug 17 at 17:56












                      @mweiss It's horses for courses - here the bound is good enough, which is fine. But there are cases for which this approach would not work and a more detailed analysis would be necessary. You can't always tell easily in advance.
                      – Mark Bennet
                      Aug 17 at 18:29





                      @mweiss It's horses for courses - here the bound is good enough, which is fine. But there are cases for which this approach would not work and a more detailed analysis would be necessary. You can't always tell easily in advance.
                      – Mark Bennet
                      Aug 17 at 18:29













                      Showing that shortening the base and lengthening the other two sides (or vice versa) does not increase area is a bit of a pain. You have to show that any such transformation of side length (keeping the sum intact) can be reversed by successivly fixing a base and transferring length from the shorter side to a longer side of the remaining 2 sides (which I believe is true, just annoying to prove). Or is there an easier way? (your argument shows that 2-side manipulation cannot increase area unless they move towards equal; showing it for 3 is my issue)
                      – Yakk
                      Aug 17 at 18:33





                      Showing that shortening the base and lengthening the other two sides (or vice versa) does not increase area is a bit of a pain. You have to show that any such transformation of side length (keeping the sum intact) can be reversed by successivly fixing a base and transferring length from the shorter side to a longer side of the remaining 2 sides (which I believe is true, just annoying to prove). Or is there an easier way? (your argument shows that 2-side manipulation cannot increase area unless they move towards equal; showing it for 3 is my issue)
                      – Yakk
                      Aug 17 at 18:33













                      @Yakk You don't need to do this. The dynamics here are if the three sides are not equal you can choose the middle side as base an increase the area by equalising the others. So no non-equilateral triangle can have maximum area for given perimeter. This method of optimising a three parameter problem by fixing one and showing that the others need to be equal, and concluding that all are equal at the critical point, is not particularly elegant in general, but works more often than it ought. Heron and AM/GM will do it "properly" here as noted.
                      – Mark Bennet
                      Aug 17 at 18:38





                      @Yakk You don't need to do this. The dynamics here are if the three sides are not equal you can choose the middle side as base an increase the area by equalising the others. So no non-equilateral triangle can have maximum area for given perimeter. This method of optimising a three parameter problem by fixing one and showing that the others need to be equal, and concluding that all are equal at the critical point, is not particularly elegant in general, but works more often than it ought. Heron and AM/GM will do it "properly" here as noted.
                      – Mark Bennet
                      Aug 17 at 18:38











                      up vote
                      9
                      down vote













                      Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                      What about $$
                      beginalign
                      a&=4+sqrt2\
                      b&=4-sqrt2\
                      c&=6
                      endalign
                      $$






                      share|cite|improve this answer






















                      • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                        – Hurkyl
                        Aug 17 at 3:00






                      • 2




                        @Hurkyl Not really. Look at the first sentence in the body of the question. The equation for the perimeter seems to be wrong. I pointed that out in a comment.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 3:02










                      • Oh gosh, my bad. There is indeed an error. Thank you
                        – Lucas
                        Aug 17 at 3:03







                      • 4




                        I got really confused seeing this answer. Then I realized the question was edited to replace perimeter 14 with 12.
                        – Sunreef
                        Aug 17 at 7:22










                      • @DavidRicherby Thanks for the edit.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 15:50














                      up vote
                      9
                      down vote













                      Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                      What about $$
                      beginalign
                      a&=4+sqrt2\
                      b&=4-sqrt2\
                      c&=6
                      endalign
                      $$






                      share|cite|improve this answer






















                      • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                        – Hurkyl
                        Aug 17 at 3:00






                      • 2




                        @Hurkyl Not really. Look at the first sentence in the body of the question. The equation for the perimeter seems to be wrong. I pointed that out in a comment.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 3:02










                      • Oh gosh, my bad. There is indeed an error. Thank you
                        – Lucas
                        Aug 17 at 3:03







                      • 4




                        I got really confused seeing this answer. Then I realized the question was edited to replace perimeter 14 with 12.
                        – Sunreef
                        Aug 17 at 7:22










                      • @DavidRicherby Thanks for the edit.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 15:50












                      up vote
                      9
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      9
                      down vote









                      Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                      What about $$
                      beginalign
                      a&=4+sqrt2\
                      b&=4-sqrt2\
                      c&=6
                      endalign
                      $$






                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                      What about $$
                      beginalign
                      a&=4+sqrt2\
                      b&=4-sqrt2\
                      c&=6
                      endalign
                      $$







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Aug 17 at 15:44









                      David Richerby

                      2,11211224




                      2,11211224










                      answered Aug 17 at 2:51









                      saulspatz

                      11.6k21324




                      11.6k21324











                      • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                        – Hurkyl
                        Aug 17 at 3:00






                      • 2




                        @Hurkyl Not really. Look at the first sentence in the body of the question. The equation for the perimeter seems to be wrong. I pointed that out in a comment.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 3:02










                      • Oh gosh, my bad. There is indeed an error. Thank you
                        – Lucas
                        Aug 17 at 3:03







                      • 4




                        I got really confused seeing this answer. Then I realized the question was edited to replace perimeter 14 with 12.
                        – Sunreef
                        Aug 17 at 7:22










                      • @DavidRicherby Thanks for the edit.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 15:50
















                      • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                        – Hurkyl
                        Aug 17 at 3:00






                      • 2




                        @Hurkyl Not really. Look at the first sentence in the body of the question. The equation for the perimeter seems to be wrong. I pointed that out in a comment.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 3:02










                      • Oh gosh, my bad. There is indeed an error. Thank you
                        – Lucas
                        Aug 17 at 3:03







                      • 4




                        I got really confused seeing this answer. Then I realized the question was edited to replace perimeter 14 with 12.
                        – Sunreef
                        Aug 17 at 7:22










                      • @DavidRicherby Thanks for the edit.
                        – saulspatz
                        Aug 17 at 15:50















                      Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                      – Hurkyl
                      Aug 17 at 3:00




                      Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                      – Hurkyl
                      Aug 17 at 3:00




                      2




                      2




                      @Hurkyl Not really. Look at the first sentence in the body of the question. The equation for the perimeter seems to be wrong. I pointed that out in a comment.
                      – saulspatz
                      Aug 17 at 3:02




                      @Hurkyl Not really. Look at the first sentence in the body of the question. The equation for the perimeter seems to be wrong. I pointed that out in a comment.
                      – saulspatz
                      Aug 17 at 3:02












                      Oh gosh, my bad. There is indeed an error. Thank you
                      – Lucas
                      Aug 17 at 3:03





                      Oh gosh, my bad. There is indeed an error. Thank you
                      – Lucas
                      Aug 17 at 3:03





                      4




                      4




                      I got really confused seeing this answer. Then I realized the question was edited to replace perimeter 14 with 12.
                      – Sunreef
                      Aug 17 at 7:22




                      I got really confused seeing this answer. Then I realized the question was edited to replace perimeter 14 with 12.
                      – Sunreef
                      Aug 17 at 7:22












                      @DavidRicherby Thanks for the edit.
                      – saulspatz
                      Aug 17 at 15:50




                      @DavidRicherby Thanks for the edit.
                      – saulspatz
                      Aug 17 at 15:50










                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote













                      If the area was $7$ and the perimeter was $12$, the radius of the inscribed circle would be $14/12$ (exercise: why?). The circle is on the picture below.



                      On the other hand you can create any possible right triangle with perimeter $12$ by picking a point $H$ on the arc between $U$ and $V$ ($T$ is the center) and plotting a hypotenuse tangent to the arc at $H$ (exercise: why is the perimeter independent of $H$, if $H$ is on the arc?).



                      Imagine you move $H$ on the arc, generating all possible triangles. None of them would have the given circle as its inscribed circle. The radius of the circle is just to large (or the radius of the arc is too small).



                      triange, circle, arc






                      share|cite|improve this answer
























                        up vote
                        6
                        down vote













                        If the area was $7$ and the perimeter was $12$, the radius of the inscribed circle would be $14/12$ (exercise: why?). The circle is on the picture below.



                        On the other hand you can create any possible right triangle with perimeter $12$ by picking a point $H$ on the arc between $U$ and $V$ ($T$ is the center) and plotting a hypotenuse tangent to the arc at $H$ (exercise: why is the perimeter independent of $H$, if $H$ is on the arc?).



                        Imagine you move $H$ on the arc, generating all possible triangles. None of them would have the given circle as its inscribed circle. The radius of the circle is just to large (or the radius of the arc is too small).



                        triange, circle, arc






                        share|cite|improve this answer






















                          up vote
                          6
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          6
                          down vote









                          If the area was $7$ and the perimeter was $12$, the radius of the inscribed circle would be $14/12$ (exercise: why?). The circle is on the picture below.



                          On the other hand you can create any possible right triangle with perimeter $12$ by picking a point $H$ on the arc between $U$ and $V$ ($T$ is the center) and plotting a hypotenuse tangent to the arc at $H$ (exercise: why is the perimeter independent of $H$, if $H$ is on the arc?).



                          Imagine you move $H$ on the arc, generating all possible triangles. None of them would have the given circle as its inscribed circle. The radius of the circle is just to large (or the radius of the arc is too small).



                          triange, circle, arc






                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          If the area was $7$ and the perimeter was $12$, the radius of the inscribed circle would be $14/12$ (exercise: why?). The circle is on the picture below.



                          On the other hand you can create any possible right triangle with perimeter $12$ by picking a point $H$ on the arc between $U$ and $V$ ($T$ is the center) and plotting a hypotenuse tangent to the arc at $H$ (exercise: why is the perimeter independent of $H$, if $H$ is on the arc?).



                          Imagine you move $H$ on the arc, generating all possible triangles. None of them would have the given circle as its inscribed circle. The radius of the circle is just to large (or the radius of the arc is too small).



                          triange, circle, arc







                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer










                          answered Aug 17 at 21:47









                          Kamil Maciorowski

                          2,2811819




                          2,2811819




















                              up vote
                              4
                              down vote













                              Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                              There is indeed such a triangle.



                              The isosceles right triangle with legs $14/(2+sqrt2)$ has perimeter $14$ and area



                              $$
                              frac12left(frac142+sqrt2right)^2=147-98sqrt2approx8.4;.
                              $$



                              On the other hand, a right triangle with perimeter $14$ can be made to have arbitrarily small area by making one of the legs arbitrarily small. The right triangles with perimeter $14$ can be parametrized by the length of the shorter leg. The area is a continuous function of this parameter. By the intermediate value theorem, there is a right triangle with perimeter $14$ with some intermediate length of the shorter leg that has area $7$.






                              share|cite|improve this answer






















                              • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:00










                              • @Hurkyl: See saulspatz's comment to your identical comment under this answer.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:30










                              • And see Lucas's response, comment on the OP, and updated question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:31










                              • @Hurkyl: I do see that. I was merely pointing out that I answered the question that was at the time both the question in the title and the question in the text. Now that both have been edited, others can answer the edited question.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:33










                              • joriki, good answer - this was the tack I thought of. The only change to your answer I would suggest is to mention that the isosceles right triangle has the maximum area of any right triangle. you mentioned that shorter legs would have less area, but this would explain why you chose the isosceles to begin with.
                                – Jim
                                Aug 17 at 13:08














                              up vote
                              4
                              down vote













                              Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                              There is indeed such a triangle.



                              The isosceles right triangle with legs $14/(2+sqrt2)$ has perimeter $14$ and area



                              $$
                              frac12left(frac142+sqrt2right)^2=147-98sqrt2approx8.4;.
                              $$



                              On the other hand, a right triangle with perimeter $14$ can be made to have arbitrarily small area by making one of the legs arbitrarily small. The right triangles with perimeter $14$ can be parametrized by the length of the shorter leg. The area is a continuous function of this parameter. By the intermediate value theorem, there is a right triangle with perimeter $14$ with some intermediate length of the shorter leg that has area $7$.






                              share|cite|improve this answer






















                              • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:00










                              • @Hurkyl: See saulspatz's comment to your identical comment under this answer.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:30










                              • And see Lucas's response, comment on the OP, and updated question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:31










                              • @Hurkyl: I do see that. I was merely pointing out that I answered the question that was at the time both the question in the title and the question in the text. Now that both have been edited, others can answer the edited question.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:33










                              • joriki, good answer - this was the tack I thought of. The only change to your answer I would suggest is to mention that the isosceles right triangle has the maximum area of any right triangle. you mentioned that shorter legs would have less area, but this would explain why you chose the isosceles to begin with.
                                – Jim
                                Aug 17 at 13:08












                              up vote
                              4
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              4
                              down vote









                              Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                              There is indeed such a triangle.



                              The isosceles right triangle with legs $14/(2+sqrt2)$ has perimeter $14$ and area



                              $$
                              frac12left(frac142+sqrt2right)^2=147-98sqrt2approx8.4;.
                              $$



                              On the other hand, a right triangle with perimeter $14$ can be made to have arbitrarily small area by making one of the legs arbitrarily small. The right triangles with perimeter $14$ can be parametrized by the length of the shorter leg. The area is a continuous function of this parameter. By the intermediate value theorem, there is a right triangle with perimeter $14$ with some intermediate length of the shorter leg that has area $7$.






                              share|cite|improve this answer














                              Note: This answer is to an earlier version of the question which asked for perimeter $14$.



                              There is indeed such a triangle.



                              The isosceles right triangle with legs $14/(2+sqrt2)$ has perimeter $14$ and area



                              $$
                              frac12left(frac142+sqrt2right)^2=147-98sqrt2approx8.4;.
                              $$



                              On the other hand, a right triangle with perimeter $14$ can be made to have arbitrarily small area by making one of the legs arbitrarily small. The right triangles with perimeter $14$ can be parametrized by the length of the shorter leg. The area is a continuous function of this parameter. By the intermediate value theorem, there is a right triangle with perimeter $14$ with some intermediate length of the shorter leg that has area $7$.







                              share|cite|improve this answer














                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer








                              edited Aug 17 at 15:45









                              David Richerby

                              2,11211224




                              2,11211224










                              answered Aug 17 at 2:47









                              joriki

                              168k10181336




                              168k10181336











                              • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:00










                              • @Hurkyl: See saulspatz's comment to your identical comment under this answer.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:30










                              • And see Lucas's response, comment on the OP, and updated question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:31










                              • @Hurkyl: I do see that. I was merely pointing out that I answered the question that was at the time both the question in the title and the question in the text. Now that both have been edited, others can answer the edited question.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:33










                              • joriki, good answer - this was the tack I thought of. The only change to your answer I would suggest is to mention that the isosceles right triangle has the maximum area of any right triangle. you mentioned that shorter legs would have less area, but this would explain why you chose the isosceles to begin with.
                                – Jim
                                Aug 17 at 13:08
















                              • Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:00










                              • @Hurkyl: See saulspatz's comment to your identical comment under this answer.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:30










                              • And see Lucas's response, comment on the OP, and updated question.
                                – Hurkyl
                                Aug 17 at 3:31










                              • @Hurkyl: I do see that. I was merely pointing out that I answered the question that was at the time both the question in the title and the question in the text. Now that both have been edited, others can answer the edited question.
                                – joriki
                                Aug 17 at 3:33










                              • joriki, good answer - this was the tack I thought of. The only change to your answer I would suggest is to mention that the isosceles right triangle has the maximum area of any right triangle. you mentioned that shorter legs would have less area, but this would explain why you chose the isosceles to begin with.
                                – Jim
                                Aug 17 at 13:08















                              Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                              – Hurkyl
                              Aug 17 at 3:00




                              Note you're answering the problem in the title, not the problem in the question.
                              – Hurkyl
                              Aug 17 at 3:00












                              @Hurkyl: See saulspatz's comment to your identical comment under this answer.
                              – joriki
                              Aug 17 at 3:30




                              @Hurkyl: See saulspatz's comment to your identical comment under this answer.
                              – joriki
                              Aug 17 at 3:30












                              And see Lucas's response, comment on the OP, and updated question.
                              – Hurkyl
                              Aug 17 at 3:31




                              And see Lucas's response, comment on the OP, and updated question.
                              – Hurkyl
                              Aug 17 at 3:31












                              @Hurkyl: I do see that. I was merely pointing out that I answered the question that was at the time both the question in the title and the question in the text. Now that both have been edited, others can answer the edited question.
                              – joriki
                              Aug 17 at 3:33




                              @Hurkyl: I do see that. I was merely pointing out that I answered the question that was at the time both the question in the title and the question in the text. Now that both have been edited, others can answer the edited question.
                              – joriki
                              Aug 17 at 3:33












                              joriki, good answer - this was the tack I thought of. The only change to your answer I would suggest is to mention that the isosceles right triangle has the maximum area of any right triangle. you mentioned that shorter legs would have less area, but this would explain why you chose the isosceles to begin with.
                              – Jim
                              Aug 17 at 13:08




                              joriki, good answer - this was the tack I thought of. The only change to your answer I would suggest is to mention that the isosceles right triangle has the maximum area of any right triangle. you mentioned that shorter legs would have less area, but this would explain why you chose the isosceles to begin with.
                              – Jim
                              Aug 17 at 13:08










                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote













                              $$a+b=12-c$$
                              $$(a^2+b^2)+2ab=(a+b)^2=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c^2+28=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c=frac296$$
                              $$a+b=frac436implies (a,b,c)=(k,frac436-k,frac296)$$
                              Since $c>a, c>b$, $$kin(0, frac296)$$






                              share|cite|improve this answer
















                              • 1




                                however, the found $a=k, b=frac436-k$ must satisfy $ab=14$, for which there will be no real $k$? it implies $c$ must be different...
                                – farruhota
                                Aug 17 at 4:23







                              • 1




                                That is the way I proved there is no right triangle satisfying the conditions, since $12 = ab = (46/6-k)k$ holds if and only if k is a complex number.
                                – Lucas
                                Aug 17 at 8:08














                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote













                              $$a+b=12-c$$
                              $$(a^2+b^2)+2ab=(a+b)^2=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c^2+28=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c=frac296$$
                              $$a+b=frac436implies (a,b,c)=(k,frac436-k,frac296)$$
                              Since $c>a, c>b$, $$kin(0, frac296)$$






                              share|cite|improve this answer
















                              • 1




                                however, the found $a=k, b=frac436-k$ must satisfy $ab=14$, for which there will be no real $k$? it implies $c$ must be different...
                                – farruhota
                                Aug 17 at 4:23







                              • 1




                                That is the way I proved there is no right triangle satisfying the conditions, since $12 = ab = (46/6-k)k$ holds if and only if k is a complex number.
                                – Lucas
                                Aug 17 at 8:08












                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote









                              $$a+b=12-c$$
                              $$(a^2+b^2)+2ab=(a+b)^2=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c^2+28=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c=frac296$$
                              $$a+b=frac436implies (a,b,c)=(k,frac436-k,frac296)$$
                              Since $c>a, c>b$, $$kin(0, frac296)$$






                              share|cite|improve this answer












                              $$a+b=12-c$$
                              $$(a^2+b^2)+2ab=(a+b)^2=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c^2+28=c^2-24c+144$$
                              $$c=frac296$$
                              $$a+b=frac436implies (a,b,c)=(k,frac436-k,frac296)$$
                              Since $c>a, c>b$, $$kin(0, frac296)$$







                              share|cite|improve this answer












                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer










                              answered Aug 17 at 3:59









                              Mythomorphic

                              5,1891733




                              5,1891733







                              • 1




                                however, the found $a=k, b=frac436-k$ must satisfy $ab=14$, for which there will be no real $k$? it implies $c$ must be different...
                                – farruhota
                                Aug 17 at 4:23







                              • 1




                                That is the way I proved there is no right triangle satisfying the conditions, since $12 = ab = (46/6-k)k$ holds if and only if k is a complex number.
                                – Lucas
                                Aug 17 at 8:08












                              • 1




                                however, the found $a=k, b=frac436-k$ must satisfy $ab=14$, for which there will be no real $k$? it implies $c$ must be different...
                                – farruhota
                                Aug 17 at 4:23







                              • 1




                                That is the way I proved there is no right triangle satisfying the conditions, since $12 = ab = (46/6-k)k$ holds if and only if k is a complex number.
                                – Lucas
                                Aug 17 at 8:08







                              1




                              1




                              however, the found $a=k, b=frac436-k$ must satisfy $ab=14$, for which there will be no real $k$? it implies $c$ must be different...
                              – farruhota
                              Aug 17 at 4:23





                              however, the found $a=k, b=frac436-k$ must satisfy $ab=14$, for which there will be no real $k$? it implies $c$ must be different...
                              – farruhota
                              Aug 17 at 4:23





                              1




                              1




                              That is the way I proved there is no right triangle satisfying the conditions, since $12 = ab = (46/6-k)k$ holds if and only if k is a complex number.
                              – Lucas
                              Aug 17 at 8:08




                              That is the way I proved there is no right triangle satisfying the conditions, since $12 = ab = (46/6-k)k$ holds if and only if k is a complex number.
                              – Lucas
                              Aug 17 at 8:08










                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote













                              Given a general triangle with
                              inradius $r$, circumradius $R$
                              and semiperimeter $rho=tfrac12(a+b+c)$,
                              the lengths of its sides $a,b,c$ can be found as
                              three roots of the cubic equation



                              beginalign
                              x^3-2rho,x^2+(rho^2+r^2+4,r,R),x-4,rrho,R
                              &=0
                              tag1label1
                              .
                              endalign



                              For the right triangle
                              the equation eqref1
                              can be simplified using a well-known condition



                              beginalign
                              R&=tfrac12(rho-r)
                              tag2label2
                              endalign
                              as follows:



                              beginalign
                              (x+r-rho)(x^2-(r+rho)x+2rrho)
                              &=0
                              tag3label3
                              .
                              endalign



                              The first root, provided by the linear term in eqref3
                              is the size of hypotenuse,



                              beginalign
                              c&=rho-r
                              ,
                              endalign



                              the other two sides must be



                              beginalign
                              a,b&=tfrac12left(r+rhopmsqrtr^2-6rrho+rho^2right)
                              .
                              endalign



                              Or, in terms of the area $S$ and perimeter $p$,



                              beginalign
                              c&=tfrac12p-tfrac2Sp
                              ,\
                              a,b&=
                              frac4S+p^2pmsqrtp^4-24Sp^2+16S^24p
                              tag4label4
                              .
                              endalign



                              So, given $S=7$, $p=12$ we get



                              beginalign
                              c&=tfrac296
                              ,\
                              a,b&=tfrac112(43pmsqrt167,i)
                              ,
                              endalign



                              thus, the right triangle with declared properties is impossible.



                              Using eqref4 it is trivial to find out that
                              the right triangle with $S=7$, $p=14$
                              has $c=6$, $a,b=4pmsqrt2$.



                              And as a bonus, the right triangle with $p=13$
                              is also valid and has side lengths



                              beginalign
                              c&=tfrac14126approx 5.423
                              ,\
                              a&=tfrac152(197-sqrt953)approx 3.195
                              ,\
                              b&=tfrac152(197+sqrt953)approx 4.382
                              endalign



                              and is just slightly bigger than
                              the famous $3-4-5$ right triangle.






                              share|cite|improve this answer
























                                up vote
                                2
                                down vote













                                Given a general triangle with
                                inradius $r$, circumradius $R$
                                and semiperimeter $rho=tfrac12(a+b+c)$,
                                the lengths of its sides $a,b,c$ can be found as
                                three roots of the cubic equation



                                beginalign
                                x^3-2rho,x^2+(rho^2+r^2+4,r,R),x-4,rrho,R
                                &=0
                                tag1label1
                                .
                                endalign



                                For the right triangle
                                the equation eqref1
                                can be simplified using a well-known condition



                                beginalign
                                R&=tfrac12(rho-r)
                                tag2label2
                                endalign
                                as follows:



                                beginalign
                                (x+r-rho)(x^2-(r+rho)x+2rrho)
                                &=0
                                tag3label3
                                .
                                endalign



                                The first root, provided by the linear term in eqref3
                                is the size of hypotenuse,



                                beginalign
                                c&=rho-r
                                ,
                                endalign



                                the other two sides must be



                                beginalign
                                a,b&=tfrac12left(r+rhopmsqrtr^2-6rrho+rho^2right)
                                .
                                endalign



                                Or, in terms of the area $S$ and perimeter $p$,



                                beginalign
                                c&=tfrac12p-tfrac2Sp
                                ,\
                                a,b&=
                                frac4S+p^2pmsqrtp^4-24Sp^2+16S^24p
                                tag4label4
                                .
                                endalign



                                So, given $S=7$, $p=12$ we get



                                beginalign
                                c&=tfrac296
                                ,\
                                a,b&=tfrac112(43pmsqrt167,i)
                                ,
                                endalign



                                thus, the right triangle with declared properties is impossible.



                                Using eqref4 it is trivial to find out that
                                the right triangle with $S=7$, $p=14$
                                has $c=6$, $a,b=4pmsqrt2$.



                                And as a bonus, the right triangle with $p=13$
                                is also valid and has side lengths



                                beginalign
                                c&=tfrac14126approx 5.423
                                ,\
                                a&=tfrac152(197-sqrt953)approx 3.195
                                ,\
                                b&=tfrac152(197+sqrt953)approx 4.382
                                endalign



                                and is just slightly bigger than
                                the famous $3-4-5$ right triangle.






                                share|cite|improve this answer






















                                  up vote
                                  2
                                  down vote










                                  up vote
                                  2
                                  down vote









                                  Given a general triangle with
                                  inradius $r$, circumradius $R$
                                  and semiperimeter $rho=tfrac12(a+b+c)$,
                                  the lengths of its sides $a,b,c$ can be found as
                                  three roots of the cubic equation



                                  beginalign
                                  x^3-2rho,x^2+(rho^2+r^2+4,r,R),x-4,rrho,R
                                  &=0
                                  tag1label1
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  For the right triangle
                                  the equation eqref1
                                  can be simplified using a well-known condition



                                  beginalign
                                  R&=tfrac12(rho-r)
                                  tag2label2
                                  endalign
                                  as follows:



                                  beginalign
                                  (x+r-rho)(x^2-(r+rho)x+2rrho)
                                  &=0
                                  tag3label3
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  The first root, provided by the linear term in eqref3
                                  is the size of hypotenuse,



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=rho-r
                                  ,
                                  endalign



                                  the other two sides must be



                                  beginalign
                                  a,b&=tfrac12left(r+rhopmsqrtr^2-6rrho+rho^2right)
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  Or, in terms of the area $S$ and perimeter $p$,



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=tfrac12p-tfrac2Sp
                                  ,\
                                  a,b&=
                                  frac4S+p^2pmsqrtp^4-24Sp^2+16S^24p
                                  tag4label4
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  So, given $S=7$, $p=12$ we get



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=tfrac296
                                  ,\
                                  a,b&=tfrac112(43pmsqrt167,i)
                                  ,
                                  endalign



                                  thus, the right triangle with declared properties is impossible.



                                  Using eqref4 it is trivial to find out that
                                  the right triangle with $S=7$, $p=14$
                                  has $c=6$, $a,b=4pmsqrt2$.



                                  And as a bonus, the right triangle with $p=13$
                                  is also valid and has side lengths



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=tfrac14126approx 5.423
                                  ,\
                                  a&=tfrac152(197-sqrt953)approx 3.195
                                  ,\
                                  b&=tfrac152(197+sqrt953)approx 4.382
                                  endalign



                                  and is just slightly bigger than
                                  the famous $3-4-5$ right triangle.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer












                                  Given a general triangle with
                                  inradius $r$, circumradius $R$
                                  and semiperimeter $rho=tfrac12(a+b+c)$,
                                  the lengths of its sides $a,b,c$ can be found as
                                  three roots of the cubic equation



                                  beginalign
                                  x^3-2rho,x^2+(rho^2+r^2+4,r,R),x-4,rrho,R
                                  &=0
                                  tag1label1
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  For the right triangle
                                  the equation eqref1
                                  can be simplified using a well-known condition



                                  beginalign
                                  R&=tfrac12(rho-r)
                                  tag2label2
                                  endalign
                                  as follows:



                                  beginalign
                                  (x+r-rho)(x^2-(r+rho)x+2rrho)
                                  &=0
                                  tag3label3
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  The first root, provided by the linear term in eqref3
                                  is the size of hypotenuse,



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=rho-r
                                  ,
                                  endalign



                                  the other two sides must be



                                  beginalign
                                  a,b&=tfrac12left(r+rhopmsqrtr^2-6rrho+rho^2right)
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  Or, in terms of the area $S$ and perimeter $p$,



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=tfrac12p-tfrac2Sp
                                  ,\
                                  a,b&=
                                  frac4S+p^2pmsqrtp^4-24Sp^2+16S^24p
                                  tag4label4
                                  .
                                  endalign



                                  So, given $S=7$, $p=12$ we get



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=tfrac296
                                  ,\
                                  a,b&=tfrac112(43pmsqrt167,i)
                                  ,
                                  endalign



                                  thus, the right triangle with declared properties is impossible.



                                  Using eqref4 it is trivial to find out that
                                  the right triangle with $S=7$, $p=14$
                                  has $c=6$, $a,b=4pmsqrt2$.



                                  And as a bonus, the right triangle with $p=13$
                                  is also valid and has side lengths



                                  beginalign
                                  c&=tfrac14126approx 5.423
                                  ,\
                                  a&=tfrac152(197-sqrt953)approx 3.195
                                  ,\
                                  b&=tfrac152(197+sqrt953)approx 4.382
                                  endalign



                                  and is just slightly bigger than
                                  the famous $3-4-5$ right triangle.







                                  share|cite|improve this answer












                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                  share|cite|improve this answer










                                  answered Aug 18 at 1:29









                                  g.kov

                                  5,7771718




                                  5,7771718




















                                      up vote
                                      1
                                      down vote













                                      Let me fill in a missing detail from the answer of @mweiss, namely, that a non-isosceles right triangle of perimeter $17$ does not have minimal area among all right triangles of perimeter $17$. And the specific value of perimeter does not matter for this purpose, so I'll do it for perimeter $p$.



                                      Letting the legs of the triangle be $a,b$, from the Pythagorean theorem we get
                                      $$a^2 + b^2 = (p-a-b)^2
                                      $$
                                      and simplifying we get
                                      $$2p a + 2p b - 2ab = (2p)^2
                                      $$
                                      Differentiating implicitly with respect to $a$ we get
                                      $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 2b - 2 a fracdbda = 0
                                      $$
                                      and so
                                      $$fracdbda = -fracp-bp-a qquad(*)
                                      $$
                                      Since the area is $A=fracab2$ we also get
                                      $$2pa + 2pb - 4A = (2p)^2
                                      $$
                                      Differentiating with respect to $a$ we get
                                      $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 4 fracdAda = 0
                                      $$
                                      Assuming $A$ is a minimum we get
                                      $$2p + 2p fracdbda = 0
                                      $$
                                      and so $fracdbda=-1$. Combining this with $(*)$ and simplifying we get
                                      $$a=b
                                      $$






                                      share|cite|improve this answer
























                                        up vote
                                        1
                                        down vote













                                        Let me fill in a missing detail from the answer of @mweiss, namely, that a non-isosceles right triangle of perimeter $17$ does not have minimal area among all right triangles of perimeter $17$. And the specific value of perimeter does not matter for this purpose, so I'll do it for perimeter $p$.



                                        Letting the legs of the triangle be $a,b$, from the Pythagorean theorem we get
                                        $$a^2 + b^2 = (p-a-b)^2
                                        $$
                                        and simplifying we get
                                        $$2p a + 2p b - 2ab = (2p)^2
                                        $$
                                        Differentiating implicitly with respect to $a$ we get
                                        $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 2b - 2 a fracdbda = 0
                                        $$
                                        and so
                                        $$fracdbda = -fracp-bp-a qquad(*)
                                        $$
                                        Since the area is $A=fracab2$ we also get
                                        $$2pa + 2pb - 4A = (2p)^2
                                        $$
                                        Differentiating with respect to $a$ we get
                                        $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 4 fracdAda = 0
                                        $$
                                        Assuming $A$ is a minimum we get
                                        $$2p + 2p fracdbda = 0
                                        $$
                                        and so $fracdbda=-1$. Combining this with $(*)$ and simplifying we get
                                        $$a=b
                                        $$






                                        share|cite|improve this answer






















                                          up vote
                                          1
                                          down vote










                                          up vote
                                          1
                                          down vote









                                          Let me fill in a missing detail from the answer of @mweiss, namely, that a non-isosceles right triangle of perimeter $17$ does not have minimal area among all right triangles of perimeter $17$. And the specific value of perimeter does not matter for this purpose, so I'll do it for perimeter $p$.



                                          Letting the legs of the triangle be $a,b$, from the Pythagorean theorem we get
                                          $$a^2 + b^2 = (p-a-b)^2
                                          $$
                                          and simplifying we get
                                          $$2p a + 2p b - 2ab = (2p)^2
                                          $$
                                          Differentiating implicitly with respect to $a$ we get
                                          $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 2b - 2 a fracdbda = 0
                                          $$
                                          and so
                                          $$fracdbda = -fracp-bp-a qquad(*)
                                          $$
                                          Since the area is $A=fracab2$ we also get
                                          $$2pa + 2pb - 4A = (2p)^2
                                          $$
                                          Differentiating with respect to $a$ we get
                                          $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 4 fracdAda = 0
                                          $$
                                          Assuming $A$ is a minimum we get
                                          $$2p + 2p fracdbda = 0
                                          $$
                                          and so $fracdbda=-1$. Combining this with $(*)$ and simplifying we get
                                          $$a=b
                                          $$






                                          share|cite|improve this answer












                                          Let me fill in a missing detail from the answer of @mweiss, namely, that a non-isosceles right triangle of perimeter $17$ does not have minimal area among all right triangles of perimeter $17$. And the specific value of perimeter does not matter for this purpose, so I'll do it for perimeter $p$.



                                          Letting the legs of the triangle be $a,b$, from the Pythagorean theorem we get
                                          $$a^2 + b^2 = (p-a-b)^2
                                          $$
                                          and simplifying we get
                                          $$2p a + 2p b - 2ab = (2p)^2
                                          $$
                                          Differentiating implicitly with respect to $a$ we get
                                          $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 2b - 2 a fracdbda = 0
                                          $$
                                          and so
                                          $$fracdbda = -fracp-bp-a qquad(*)
                                          $$
                                          Since the area is $A=fracab2$ we also get
                                          $$2pa + 2pb - 4A = (2p)^2
                                          $$
                                          Differentiating with respect to $a$ we get
                                          $$2p + 2p fracdbda - 4 fracdAda = 0
                                          $$
                                          Assuming $A$ is a minimum we get
                                          $$2p + 2p fracdbda = 0
                                          $$
                                          and so $fracdbda=-1$. Combining this with $(*)$ and simplifying we get
                                          $$a=b
                                          $$







                                          share|cite|improve this answer












                                          share|cite|improve this answer



                                          share|cite|improve this answer










                                          answered Aug 18 at 14:32









                                          Lee Mosher

                                          46.1k33579




                                          46.1k33579




















                                              up vote
                                              0
                                              down vote













                                              The triangle is two adjacent sides and one diagonal of a rectangle. As you pointed out, the product of the two legs is 14. This is the rectangle's area.



                                              Making the rectangle a square minimises the sum of the triangle's legs and also minimises the rectangle's diagonal (the triangle's hypotenuse). This thus minimises the triangle's perimeter. Each leg is $sqrt14$ and the hypotenuse is $sqrt28$. This gives a perimeter $>12.7$. Thus no such triangle with perimeter 12 exists.






                                              share|cite|improve this answer
























                                                up vote
                                                0
                                                down vote













                                                The triangle is two adjacent sides and one diagonal of a rectangle. As you pointed out, the product of the two legs is 14. This is the rectangle's area.



                                                Making the rectangle a square minimises the sum of the triangle's legs and also minimises the rectangle's diagonal (the triangle's hypotenuse). This thus minimises the triangle's perimeter. Each leg is $sqrt14$ and the hypotenuse is $sqrt28$. This gives a perimeter $>12.7$. Thus no such triangle with perimeter 12 exists.






                                                share|cite|improve this answer






















                                                  up vote
                                                  0
                                                  down vote










                                                  up vote
                                                  0
                                                  down vote









                                                  The triangle is two adjacent sides and one diagonal of a rectangle. As you pointed out, the product of the two legs is 14. This is the rectangle's area.



                                                  Making the rectangle a square minimises the sum of the triangle's legs and also minimises the rectangle's diagonal (the triangle's hypotenuse). This thus minimises the triangle's perimeter. Each leg is $sqrt14$ and the hypotenuse is $sqrt28$. This gives a perimeter $>12.7$. Thus no such triangle with perimeter 12 exists.






                                                  share|cite|improve this answer












                                                  The triangle is two adjacent sides and one diagonal of a rectangle. As you pointed out, the product of the two legs is 14. This is the rectangle's area.



                                                  Making the rectangle a square minimises the sum of the triangle's legs and also minimises the rectangle's diagonal (the triangle's hypotenuse). This thus minimises the triangle's perimeter. Each leg is $sqrt14$ and the hypotenuse is $sqrt28$. This gives a perimeter $>12.7$. Thus no such triangle with perimeter 12 exists.







                                                  share|cite|improve this answer












                                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                                  share|cite|improve this answer










                                                  answered Aug 18 at 16:18









                                                  Rosie F

                                                  1,148314




                                                  1,148314




















                                                      up vote
                                                      0
                                                      down vote













                                                      WLOG let $c>a>b$
                                                      $$14=abspace (0)$$
                                                      $$a+b+c=12space (1)$$
                                                      $$3c>12space (2)$$
                                                      $$c>4space (3)$$
                                                      $$a+b+c>4+a+bspace (4)$$
                                                      $$12>4+a+bspace (5)$$
                                                      $$8>a+bspace (6)$$
                                                      $$4>fraca+b2space (7)$$
                                                      $$16>left(fraca+b2right)^2space (8)$$
                                                      $$16>fraca^2+2ab+b^24space (9)$$
                                                      $$2>fraca^2-2ab+b^24space(10)=(9)-(0)$$
                                                      $$2>left(fraca-b2right)^2space (11)$$
                                                      $$sqrt2>fraca-b2space (12)$$
                                                      $$4+sqrt2>aspace (13)= (7)+(12) $$
                                                      $$4-sqrt2>bspace (14)=(7)-(12)$$
                                                      $$14>abspacespace (15)=(13)cdot (14)$$
                                                      (15) contradicts (0) QED






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer


























                                                        up vote
                                                        0
                                                        down vote













                                                        WLOG let $c>a>b$
                                                        $$14=abspace (0)$$
                                                        $$a+b+c=12space (1)$$
                                                        $$3c>12space (2)$$
                                                        $$c>4space (3)$$
                                                        $$a+b+c>4+a+bspace (4)$$
                                                        $$12>4+a+bspace (5)$$
                                                        $$8>a+bspace (6)$$
                                                        $$4>fraca+b2space (7)$$
                                                        $$16>left(fraca+b2right)^2space (8)$$
                                                        $$16>fraca^2+2ab+b^24space (9)$$
                                                        $$2>fraca^2-2ab+b^24space(10)=(9)-(0)$$
                                                        $$2>left(fraca-b2right)^2space (11)$$
                                                        $$sqrt2>fraca-b2space (12)$$
                                                        $$4+sqrt2>aspace (13)= (7)+(12) $$
                                                        $$4-sqrt2>bspace (14)=(7)-(12)$$
                                                        $$14>abspacespace (15)=(13)cdot (14)$$
                                                        (15) contradicts (0) QED






                                                        share|cite|improve this answer
























                                                          up vote
                                                          0
                                                          down vote










                                                          up vote
                                                          0
                                                          down vote









                                                          WLOG let $c>a>b$
                                                          $$14=abspace (0)$$
                                                          $$a+b+c=12space (1)$$
                                                          $$3c>12space (2)$$
                                                          $$c>4space (3)$$
                                                          $$a+b+c>4+a+bspace (4)$$
                                                          $$12>4+a+bspace (5)$$
                                                          $$8>a+bspace (6)$$
                                                          $$4>fraca+b2space (7)$$
                                                          $$16>left(fraca+b2right)^2space (8)$$
                                                          $$16>fraca^2+2ab+b^24space (9)$$
                                                          $$2>fraca^2-2ab+b^24space(10)=(9)-(0)$$
                                                          $$2>left(fraca-b2right)^2space (11)$$
                                                          $$sqrt2>fraca-b2space (12)$$
                                                          $$4+sqrt2>aspace (13)= (7)+(12) $$
                                                          $$4-sqrt2>bspace (14)=(7)-(12)$$
                                                          $$14>abspacespace (15)=(13)cdot (14)$$
                                                          (15) contradicts (0) QED






                                                          share|cite|improve this answer














                                                          WLOG let $c>a>b$
                                                          $$14=abspace (0)$$
                                                          $$a+b+c=12space (1)$$
                                                          $$3c>12space (2)$$
                                                          $$c>4space (3)$$
                                                          $$a+b+c>4+a+bspace (4)$$
                                                          $$12>4+a+bspace (5)$$
                                                          $$8>a+bspace (6)$$
                                                          $$4>fraca+b2space (7)$$
                                                          $$16>left(fraca+b2right)^2space (8)$$
                                                          $$16>fraca^2+2ab+b^24space (9)$$
                                                          $$2>fraca^2-2ab+b^24space(10)=(9)-(0)$$
                                                          $$2>left(fraca-b2right)^2space (11)$$
                                                          $$sqrt2>fraca-b2space (12)$$
                                                          $$4+sqrt2>aspace (13)= (7)+(12) $$
                                                          $$4-sqrt2>bspace (14)=(7)-(12)$$
                                                          $$14>abspacespace (15)=(13)cdot (14)$$
                                                          (15) contradicts (0) QED







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                                                          edited Aug 22 at 4:21

























                                                          answered Aug 22 at 3:49









                                                          quantus14

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