When are fiducials needed?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
11
down vote
favorite
On a single-layer board with no through-hole and no machine placed components, is there any need for fiducials (for example to route the board outline)? Board house has asked for permission to add fiducials to gerbers. Of course I will say yes, but I am surprised. I definitely don't need the fiducials for assembly. But the vendor seems to be saying that the fiducials will assist in cutting the board outline.
pcb-fabrication
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
favorite
On a single-layer board with no through-hole and no machine placed components, is there any need for fiducials (for example to route the board outline)? Board house has asked for permission to add fiducials to gerbers. Of course I will say yes, but I am surprised. I definitely don't need the fiducials for assembly. But the vendor seems to be saying that the fiducials will assist in cutting the board outline.
pcb-fabrication
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
3
I'd believe them. They are probably using a fiducial camera rather than set pins.
– jonk
Aug 31 at 5:37
3
Wouldn't they be required for solder mask and silk-screen alignment?
– Transistor
Aug 31 at 6:23
No silkscreen on this board. Soldermask, yes. That is a good point.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:28
1
Is your design panelized? Are they asking for fiducials on the panel or on the boards?
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 6:55
2
I would think that if they needed them to cut panels, they would just add fiducials to the runners, and you would never know about them.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
favorite
up vote
11
down vote
favorite
On a single-layer board with no through-hole and no machine placed components, is there any need for fiducials (for example to route the board outline)? Board house has asked for permission to add fiducials to gerbers. Of course I will say yes, but I am surprised. I definitely don't need the fiducials for assembly. But the vendor seems to be saying that the fiducials will assist in cutting the board outline.
pcb-fabrication
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
On a single-layer board with no through-hole and no machine placed components, is there any need for fiducials (for example to route the board outline)? Board house has asked for permission to add fiducials to gerbers. Of course I will say yes, but I am surprised. I definitely don't need the fiducials for assembly. But the vendor seems to be saying that the fiducials will assist in cutting the board outline.
pcb-fabrication
pcb-fabrication
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
asked Aug 31 at 5:24
mkeith
10.6k11031
10.6k11031
3
I'd believe them. They are probably using a fiducial camera rather than set pins.
– jonk
Aug 31 at 5:37
3
Wouldn't they be required for solder mask and silk-screen alignment?
– Transistor
Aug 31 at 6:23
No silkscreen on this board. Soldermask, yes. That is a good point.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:28
1
Is your design panelized? Are they asking for fiducials on the panel or on the boards?
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 6:55
2
I would think that if they needed them to cut panels, they would just add fiducials to the runners, and you would never know about them.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
3
I'd believe them. They are probably using a fiducial camera rather than set pins.
– jonk
Aug 31 at 5:37
3
Wouldn't they be required for solder mask and silk-screen alignment?
– Transistor
Aug 31 at 6:23
No silkscreen on this board. Soldermask, yes. That is a good point.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:28
1
Is your design panelized? Are they asking for fiducials on the panel or on the boards?
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 6:55
2
I would think that if they needed them to cut panels, they would just add fiducials to the runners, and you would never know about them.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:19
3
3
I'd believe them. They are probably using a fiducial camera rather than set pins.
– jonk
Aug 31 at 5:37
I'd believe them. They are probably using a fiducial camera rather than set pins.
– jonk
Aug 31 at 5:37
3
3
Wouldn't they be required for solder mask and silk-screen alignment?
– Transistor
Aug 31 at 6:23
Wouldn't they be required for solder mask and silk-screen alignment?
– Transistor
Aug 31 at 6:23
No silkscreen on this board. Soldermask, yes. That is a good point.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:28
No silkscreen on this board. Soldermask, yes. That is a good point.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:28
1
1
Is your design panelized? Are they asking for fiducials on the panel or on the boards?
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 6:55
Is your design panelized? Are they asking for fiducials on the panel or on the boards?
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 6:55
2
2
I would think that if they needed them to cut panels, they would just add fiducials to the runners, and you would never know about them.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:19
I would think that if they needed them to cut panels, they would just add fiducials to the runners, and you would never know about them.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
According to this application note from norcott, three global fiducials are used to determine the correct orientation of the board (or panel).
Relevant quote:
It is important that only three fiducials are used. This ensures that
if a panel is accidently inserted into the placement equipment rotated
through 180°, the equipment can detect it and halt assembly.
And for a single board without a panel, those fiducials are placed on the board, and will show up in the end:
(images taken from the application note)
There is no specific mention of routing the board outline in that document, but I can imagine that they use this also in the routing machine to make sure that the board has the right orientation.
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
Those fiducials would never show up on the end-product, so the maker wouldn't need to add them to the customer gerbers.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:20
1
@ScottSeidman if the board is produced without a panel, the fiducials are placed on the board and then show up on the end product.
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 14:27
add a comment |Â
up vote
13
down vote
Fiducials are required when you use any kind of computer vision. The fiducials are the calibration point for the vision system and the board coordinates.
You need them for vision assisted drilling, pick and place, but also Automated Optical Inspection (AOI).
Basically any machine that automatically recognizes the board position and angle.
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
Thanks. Do you think they use computer vision during fab to cut the outline on a single layer board (with no holes of any kind?)
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 5:43
@mkeith why should the amount of layers matter for the way they align the board in their cutting process?
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 5:58
@PlasmaHH I don't think layer count has anything to do with cutting. I just wanted to re-emphasize that it is one layer, so inter-layer registration is not needed. And there are no vias or through hole components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:00
1
@mkeith but why are you doing that? You seem to imply that this is somewhat important. You say they say they need them for cutting the board outline. Sounds reasonable
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 6:03
Yes. I am familiar with fiducials and their importance in pick-and-place. But this board has no machine-placed components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:03
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
6
down vote
You don't know their process, and just how many things they have automated, requiring machine vision, for processing and maintaining the quality of their boards.
Perhaps the most important thing is that they want to process your boards through their standard flow. If your board is a 'special', so it doesn't need this station, and it can't be put through that station, then it has to be handled differently, and it will cost them 10x more.
If their outline router uses fiducials, they will want to add them.
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
I guess I was hoping to have a definitive answer about whether outline routing sometimes uses machine vision. I guess the answer is probably yes.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:23
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Fiducials are also used to line up stencils for applying solder paste.
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
According to this application note from norcott, three global fiducials are used to determine the correct orientation of the board (or panel).
Relevant quote:
It is important that only three fiducials are used. This ensures that
if a panel is accidently inserted into the placement equipment rotated
through 180°, the equipment can detect it and halt assembly.
And for a single board without a panel, those fiducials are placed on the board, and will show up in the end:
(images taken from the application note)
There is no specific mention of routing the board outline in that document, but I can imagine that they use this also in the routing machine to make sure that the board has the right orientation.
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
Those fiducials would never show up on the end-product, so the maker wouldn't need to add them to the customer gerbers.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:20
1
@ScottSeidman if the board is produced without a panel, the fiducials are placed on the board and then show up on the end product.
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 14:27
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
According to this application note from norcott, three global fiducials are used to determine the correct orientation of the board (or panel).
Relevant quote:
It is important that only three fiducials are used. This ensures that
if a panel is accidently inserted into the placement equipment rotated
through 180°, the equipment can detect it and halt assembly.
And for a single board without a panel, those fiducials are placed on the board, and will show up in the end:
(images taken from the application note)
There is no specific mention of routing the board outline in that document, but I can imagine that they use this also in the routing machine to make sure that the board has the right orientation.
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
Those fiducials would never show up on the end-product, so the maker wouldn't need to add them to the customer gerbers.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:20
1
@ScottSeidman if the board is produced without a panel, the fiducials are placed on the board and then show up on the end product.
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 14:27
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
According to this application note from norcott, three global fiducials are used to determine the correct orientation of the board (or panel).
Relevant quote:
It is important that only three fiducials are used. This ensures that
if a panel is accidently inserted into the placement equipment rotated
through 180°, the equipment can detect it and halt assembly.
And for a single board without a panel, those fiducials are placed on the board, and will show up in the end:
(images taken from the application note)
There is no specific mention of routing the board outline in that document, but I can imagine that they use this also in the routing machine to make sure that the board has the right orientation.
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
According to this application note from norcott, three global fiducials are used to determine the correct orientation of the board (or panel).
Relevant quote:
It is important that only three fiducials are used. This ensures that
if a panel is accidently inserted into the placement equipment rotated
through 180°, the equipment can detect it and halt assembly.
And for a single board without a panel, those fiducials are placed on the board, and will show up in the end:
(images taken from the application note)
There is no specific mention of routing the board outline in that document, but I can imagine that they use this also in the routing machine to make sure that the board has the right orientation.
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
edited Aug 31 at 14:32
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
answered Aug 31 at 7:42
Arsenal
11.6k11238
11.6k11238
Those fiducials would never show up on the end-product, so the maker wouldn't need to add them to the customer gerbers.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:20
1
@ScottSeidman if the board is produced without a panel, the fiducials are placed on the board and then show up on the end product.
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 14:27
add a comment |Â
Those fiducials would never show up on the end-product, so the maker wouldn't need to add them to the customer gerbers.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:20
1
@ScottSeidman if the board is produced without a panel, the fiducials are placed on the board and then show up on the end product.
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 14:27
Those fiducials would never show up on the end-product, so the maker wouldn't need to add them to the customer gerbers.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:20
Those fiducials would never show up on the end-product, so the maker wouldn't need to add them to the customer gerbers.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:20
1
1
@ScottSeidman if the board is produced without a panel, the fiducials are placed on the board and then show up on the end product.
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 14:27
@ScottSeidman if the board is produced without a panel, the fiducials are placed on the board and then show up on the end product.
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 14:27
add a comment |Â
up vote
13
down vote
Fiducials are required when you use any kind of computer vision. The fiducials are the calibration point for the vision system and the board coordinates.
You need them for vision assisted drilling, pick and place, but also Automated Optical Inspection (AOI).
Basically any machine that automatically recognizes the board position and angle.
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
Thanks. Do you think they use computer vision during fab to cut the outline on a single layer board (with no holes of any kind?)
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 5:43
@mkeith why should the amount of layers matter for the way they align the board in their cutting process?
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 5:58
@PlasmaHH I don't think layer count has anything to do with cutting. I just wanted to re-emphasize that it is one layer, so inter-layer registration is not needed. And there are no vias or through hole components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:00
1
@mkeith but why are you doing that? You seem to imply that this is somewhat important. You say they say they need them for cutting the board outline. Sounds reasonable
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 6:03
Yes. I am familiar with fiducials and their importance in pick-and-place. But this board has no machine-placed components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:03
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
13
down vote
Fiducials are required when you use any kind of computer vision. The fiducials are the calibration point for the vision system and the board coordinates.
You need them for vision assisted drilling, pick and place, but also Automated Optical Inspection (AOI).
Basically any machine that automatically recognizes the board position and angle.
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
Thanks. Do you think they use computer vision during fab to cut the outline on a single layer board (with no holes of any kind?)
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 5:43
@mkeith why should the amount of layers matter for the way they align the board in their cutting process?
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 5:58
@PlasmaHH I don't think layer count has anything to do with cutting. I just wanted to re-emphasize that it is one layer, so inter-layer registration is not needed. And there are no vias or through hole components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:00
1
@mkeith but why are you doing that? You seem to imply that this is somewhat important. You say they say they need them for cutting the board outline. Sounds reasonable
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 6:03
Yes. I am familiar with fiducials and their importance in pick-and-place. But this board has no machine-placed components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:03
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
13
down vote
up vote
13
down vote
Fiducials are required when you use any kind of computer vision. The fiducials are the calibration point for the vision system and the board coordinates.
You need them for vision assisted drilling, pick and place, but also Automated Optical Inspection (AOI).
Basically any machine that automatically recognizes the board position and angle.
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
Fiducials are required when you use any kind of computer vision. The fiducials are the calibration point for the vision system and the board coordinates.
You need them for vision assisted drilling, pick and place, but also Automated Optical Inspection (AOI).
Basically any machine that automatically recognizes the board position and angle.
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
edited Aug 31 at 11:03
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
answered Aug 31 at 5:36
Jeroen3
9,4541241
9,4541241
Thanks. Do you think they use computer vision during fab to cut the outline on a single layer board (with no holes of any kind?)
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 5:43
@mkeith why should the amount of layers matter for the way they align the board in their cutting process?
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 5:58
@PlasmaHH I don't think layer count has anything to do with cutting. I just wanted to re-emphasize that it is one layer, so inter-layer registration is not needed. And there are no vias or through hole components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:00
1
@mkeith but why are you doing that? You seem to imply that this is somewhat important. You say they say they need them for cutting the board outline. Sounds reasonable
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 6:03
Yes. I am familiar with fiducials and their importance in pick-and-place. But this board has no machine-placed components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:03
 |Â
show 4 more comments
Thanks. Do you think they use computer vision during fab to cut the outline on a single layer board (with no holes of any kind?)
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 5:43
@mkeith why should the amount of layers matter for the way they align the board in their cutting process?
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 5:58
@PlasmaHH I don't think layer count has anything to do with cutting. I just wanted to re-emphasize that it is one layer, so inter-layer registration is not needed. And there are no vias or through hole components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:00
1
@mkeith but why are you doing that? You seem to imply that this is somewhat important. You say they say they need them for cutting the board outline. Sounds reasonable
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 6:03
Yes. I am familiar with fiducials and their importance in pick-and-place. But this board has no machine-placed components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:03
Thanks. Do you think they use computer vision during fab to cut the outline on a single layer board (with no holes of any kind?)
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 5:43
Thanks. Do you think they use computer vision during fab to cut the outline on a single layer board (with no holes of any kind?)
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 5:43
@mkeith why should the amount of layers matter for the way they align the board in their cutting process?
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 5:58
@mkeith why should the amount of layers matter for the way they align the board in their cutting process?
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 5:58
@PlasmaHH I don't think layer count has anything to do with cutting. I just wanted to re-emphasize that it is one layer, so inter-layer registration is not needed. And there are no vias or through hole components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:00
@PlasmaHH I don't think layer count has anything to do with cutting. I just wanted to re-emphasize that it is one layer, so inter-layer registration is not needed. And there are no vias or through hole components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:00
1
1
@mkeith but why are you doing that? You seem to imply that this is somewhat important. You say they say they need them for cutting the board outline. Sounds reasonable
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 6:03
@mkeith but why are you doing that? You seem to imply that this is somewhat important. You say they say they need them for cutting the board outline. Sounds reasonable
– PlasmaHH
Aug 31 at 6:03
Yes. I am familiar with fiducials and their importance in pick-and-place. But this board has no machine-placed components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:03
Yes. I am familiar with fiducials and their importance in pick-and-place. But this board has no machine-placed components.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:03
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
6
down vote
You don't know their process, and just how many things they have automated, requiring machine vision, for processing and maintaining the quality of their boards.
Perhaps the most important thing is that they want to process your boards through their standard flow. If your board is a 'special', so it doesn't need this station, and it can't be put through that station, then it has to be handled differently, and it will cost them 10x more.
If their outline router uses fiducials, they will want to add them.
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
I guess I was hoping to have a definitive answer about whether outline routing sometimes uses machine vision. I guess the answer is probably yes.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:23
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
You don't know their process, and just how many things they have automated, requiring machine vision, for processing and maintaining the quality of their boards.
Perhaps the most important thing is that they want to process your boards through their standard flow. If your board is a 'special', so it doesn't need this station, and it can't be put through that station, then it has to be handled differently, and it will cost them 10x more.
If their outline router uses fiducials, they will want to add them.
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
I guess I was hoping to have a definitive answer about whether outline routing sometimes uses machine vision. I guess the answer is probably yes.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:23
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
You don't know their process, and just how many things they have automated, requiring machine vision, for processing and maintaining the quality of their boards.
Perhaps the most important thing is that they want to process your boards through their standard flow. If your board is a 'special', so it doesn't need this station, and it can't be put through that station, then it has to be handled differently, and it will cost them 10x more.
If their outline router uses fiducials, they will want to add them.
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
You don't know their process, and just how many things they have automated, requiring machine vision, for processing and maintaining the quality of their boards.
Perhaps the most important thing is that they want to process your boards through their standard flow. If your board is a 'special', so it doesn't need this station, and it can't be put through that station, then it has to be handled differently, and it will cost them 10x more.
If their outline router uses fiducials, they will want to add them.
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
answered Aug 31 at 6:21
Neil_UK
70.3k273155
70.3k273155
I guess I was hoping to have a definitive answer about whether outline routing sometimes uses machine vision. I guess the answer is probably yes.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:23
add a comment |Â
I guess I was hoping to have a definitive answer about whether outline routing sometimes uses machine vision. I guess the answer is probably yes.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:23
I guess I was hoping to have a definitive answer about whether outline routing sometimes uses machine vision. I guess the answer is probably yes.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:23
I guess I was hoping to have a definitive answer about whether outline routing sometimes uses machine vision. I guess the answer is probably yes.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:23
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Fiducials are also used to line up stencils for applying solder paste.
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Fiducials are also used to line up stencils for applying solder paste.
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Fiducials are also used to line up stencils for applying solder paste.
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
Fiducials are also used to line up stencils for applying solder paste.
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
answered Aug 31 at 18:56
CrossRoads
6774
6774
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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3
I'd believe them. They are probably using a fiducial camera rather than set pins.
– jonk
Aug 31 at 5:37
3
Wouldn't they be required for solder mask and silk-screen alignment?
– Transistor
Aug 31 at 6:23
No silkscreen on this board. Soldermask, yes. That is a good point.
– mkeith
Aug 31 at 6:28
1
Is your design panelized? Are they asking for fiducials on the panel or on the boards?
– Arsenal
Aug 31 at 6:55
2
I would think that if they needed them to cut panels, they would just add fiducials to the runners, and you would never know about them.
– Scott Seidman
Aug 31 at 14:19