Do binary operations need to be surjective functions?
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Let $star$ be a binary operation on the set $S=[0,1]$ defined to be $$star : [0,1] times [0,1] to [0,1] $$
$$textwhere a star b = textminleft(frac12 a , frac12 bright) $$
From observation we can see that the set $S$ is closed under $star$ and that each ordered pair $(a,b)$ is mapped to only one element in $S$.
For example, $1 star 0.3 = 0.15$
But we also don't have every element in the codomain being hit. There doesn't exist any $(a,b) in S^2$ such that $a star b = 0.75$, for example.
Does this cause a problem at all? Is $star$ still considered a binary operation on $S$? In class we were told all binary operations were surjective, but the textbook for the class states no such thing. And if it is not a problem, I am wondering if there are any more complicated or "elegant" examples. I am interested to see them if they are.
Thanks for any clarification on my confusion.
abstract-algebra binary-operations
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
Let $star$ be a binary operation on the set $S=[0,1]$ defined to be $$star : [0,1] times [0,1] to [0,1] $$
$$textwhere a star b = textminleft(frac12 a , frac12 bright) $$
From observation we can see that the set $S$ is closed under $star$ and that each ordered pair $(a,b)$ is mapped to only one element in $S$.
For example, $1 star 0.3 = 0.15$
But we also don't have every element in the codomain being hit. There doesn't exist any $(a,b) in S^2$ such that $a star b = 0.75$, for example.
Does this cause a problem at all? Is $star$ still considered a binary operation on $S$? In class we were told all binary operations were surjective, but the textbook for the class states no such thing. And if it is not a problem, I am wondering if there are any more complicated or "elegant" examples. I am interested to see them if they are.
Thanks for any clarification on my confusion.
abstract-algebra binary-operations
16
Binary operations do not need to be surjective.
â Mike Earnest
Sep 5 at 16:02
Are you clear on the difference between codomain and range?
â Eric Towers
Sep 6 at 13:54
Yes, codomain is the set of elements that are being mapped to and the range or image is the subset of the codomain that actually has elements from the domain mapped to it
â WaveX
Sep 6 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
Let $star$ be a binary operation on the set $S=[0,1]$ defined to be $$star : [0,1] times [0,1] to [0,1] $$
$$textwhere a star b = textminleft(frac12 a , frac12 bright) $$
From observation we can see that the set $S$ is closed under $star$ and that each ordered pair $(a,b)$ is mapped to only one element in $S$.
For example, $1 star 0.3 = 0.15$
But we also don't have every element in the codomain being hit. There doesn't exist any $(a,b) in S^2$ such that $a star b = 0.75$, for example.
Does this cause a problem at all? Is $star$ still considered a binary operation on $S$? In class we were told all binary operations were surjective, but the textbook for the class states no such thing. And if it is not a problem, I am wondering if there are any more complicated or "elegant" examples. I am interested to see them if they are.
Thanks for any clarification on my confusion.
abstract-algebra binary-operations
Let $star$ be a binary operation on the set $S=[0,1]$ defined to be $$star : [0,1] times [0,1] to [0,1] $$
$$textwhere a star b = textminleft(frac12 a , frac12 bright) $$
From observation we can see that the set $S$ is closed under $star$ and that each ordered pair $(a,b)$ is mapped to only one element in $S$.
For example, $1 star 0.3 = 0.15$
But we also don't have every element in the codomain being hit. There doesn't exist any $(a,b) in S^2$ such that $a star b = 0.75$, for example.
Does this cause a problem at all? Is $star$ still considered a binary operation on $S$? In class we were told all binary operations were surjective, but the textbook for the class states no such thing. And if it is not a problem, I am wondering if there are any more complicated or "elegant" examples. I am interested to see them if they are.
Thanks for any clarification on my confusion.
abstract-algebra binary-operations
abstract-algebra binary-operations
edited Sep 5 at 22:21
asked Sep 5 at 16:01
WaveX
2,1252720
2,1252720
16
Binary operations do not need to be surjective.
â Mike Earnest
Sep 5 at 16:02
Are you clear on the difference between codomain and range?
â Eric Towers
Sep 6 at 13:54
Yes, codomain is the set of elements that are being mapped to and the range or image is the subset of the codomain that actually has elements from the domain mapped to it
â WaveX
Sep 6 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
16
Binary operations do not need to be surjective.
â Mike Earnest
Sep 5 at 16:02
Are you clear on the difference between codomain and range?
â Eric Towers
Sep 6 at 13:54
Yes, codomain is the set of elements that are being mapped to and the range or image is the subset of the codomain that actually has elements from the domain mapped to it
â WaveX
Sep 6 at 14:51
16
16
Binary operations do not need to be surjective.
â Mike Earnest
Sep 5 at 16:02
Binary operations do not need to be surjective.
â Mike Earnest
Sep 5 at 16:02
Are you clear on the difference between codomain and range?
â Eric Towers
Sep 6 at 13:54
Are you clear on the difference between codomain and range?
â Eric Towers
Sep 6 at 13:54
Yes, codomain is the set of elements that are being mapped to and the range or image is the subset of the codomain that actually has elements from the domain mapped to it
â WaveX
Sep 6 at 14:51
Yes, codomain is the set of elements that are being mapped to and the range or image is the subset of the codomain that actually has elements from the domain mapped to it
â WaveX
Sep 6 at 14:51
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
up vote
20
down vote
Binary operations do not need to be surjective. Here is a natural example:
Let $mathbb N = 1,2,3,dots $. Then $+: mathbb N times mathbb N to mathbb N$ is not surjective because $1$ is not in the image.
Here is another natural, more interesting example:
Let $mathbb N' = 2,3,dots $. Then $times: mathbb N' times mathbb N' to mathbb N'$ is not surjective because the prime numbers are not in the image.
3
Are these examples natural because they are not contrived, or because they involve $mathbb N$?
â Misha Lavrov
Sep 5 at 22:47
5
@MishaLavrov, natural because the operations are basic ones, not invented.
â lhf
Sep 5 at 22:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
In general binary operations are not surjective.
Note that, say, for some set $S$ and a fixed $s in S$ the operation given by $a times b = s$ for all $a,b in S$ is a binary operation.
Just binary operation means really little. It's literally just a function from $Stimes S$ to $S$.
However, if the binary relation has an identity element (or just a left-identity or a right-identity would also suffice), then it can be directly seen that it is surjective. This may or may not be the reason for the discrepancy you observed. It also explains why not few of the most common binary operations are in fact surjective (they have an identity), and further shows a way how to construct some somewhat natural ones that don't.
Note that in the two examples in lhf's answer they judiciously avoided to have the respective natural neutral element in the set.
Let me add some more examples:
The reals greater than $0.5$ with addition. This also works for the reals greater than $t$ for any fixed positive $t$, yet not for the positive reals.
The reals in the interval $[-0.5,0.5]$ with multiplication (works for any closed interval, even non-symmetric ones in $(-1,1)$ yet not for $(-1,1)$ itself).
The reals or also the complex numbers with absolute value greater than $2$ with multiplication (works for greater than $t$ for any fixed $t > 1$, yet not for greater than $1$).
The $n times n$ (real) matrices with determinant greater than $2$ (works for any fixed $t>1$).
However, if the binary relation has a neutral element
- What do you mean by neutral element?
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 17:22
4
@taritgoswami Another term for "identity" element.
â Randall
Sep 5 at 18:09
1
@taritgoswami What Randall said. But maybe your point was that I glossed over the right left issue. I clarified the answer and added a link.
â quidâ¦
Sep 5 at 19:06
@quid Thank you :)
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 20:13
1
+1 for identifying the possible source of the confusion.
â Ilmari Karonen
Sep 6 at 8:54
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
I'll give a simple non-fancy example. Consider $f : mathbbR^2 to mathbbR$ defined by $$f(x, y) = 0$$ think of this function as assigning the value $0$ to every point on the plane. Certainly $f$ is a binary operation, but it's as non-surjective as such a function can get.
4
Nor is it injective. Great example of a boring old function that just disproves a statement.
â WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
Sep 5 at 19:40
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
If you define operation on a set $S$ as a function from $S times S$ on S, then it has no reason to be surjective, and you and others gave many example on such non surjective functions.
But common true operations are surjective, simply because real world operations are. Almost all (if not all) interesting operation have an invariant element: $i$ for which $ forall x in S, i otimes x = x$. Such an element is enough to guarantee that the operation will be surjective, and all operations with interesting properties have.
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
20
down vote
Binary operations do not need to be surjective. Here is a natural example:
Let $mathbb N = 1,2,3,dots $. Then $+: mathbb N times mathbb N to mathbb N$ is not surjective because $1$ is not in the image.
Here is another natural, more interesting example:
Let $mathbb N' = 2,3,dots $. Then $times: mathbb N' times mathbb N' to mathbb N'$ is not surjective because the prime numbers are not in the image.
3
Are these examples natural because they are not contrived, or because they involve $mathbb N$?
â Misha Lavrov
Sep 5 at 22:47
5
@MishaLavrov, natural because the operations are basic ones, not invented.
â lhf
Sep 5 at 22:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
20
down vote
Binary operations do not need to be surjective. Here is a natural example:
Let $mathbb N = 1,2,3,dots $. Then $+: mathbb N times mathbb N to mathbb N$ is not surjective because $1$ is not in the image.
Here is another natural, more interesting example:
Let $mathbb N' = 2,3,dots $. Then $times: mathbb N' times mathbb N' to mathbb N'$ is not surjective because the prime numbers are not in the image.
3
Are these examples natural because they are not contrived, or because they involve $mathbb N$?
â Misha Lavrov
Sep 5 at 22:47
5
@MishaLavrov, natural because the operations are basic ones, not invented.
â lhf
Sep 5 at 22:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
20
down vote
up vote
20
down vote
Binary operations do not need to be surjective. Here is a natural example:
Let $mathbb N = 1,2,3,dots $. Then $+: mathbb N times mathbb N to mathbb N$ is not surjective because $1$ is not in the image.
Here is another natural, more interesting example:
Let $mathbb N' = 2,3,dots $. Then $times: mathbb N' times mathbb N' to mathbb N'$ is not surjective because the prime numbers are not in the image.
Binary operations do not need to be surjective. Here is a natural example:
Let $mathbb N = 1,2,3,dots $. Then $+: mathbb N times mathbb N to mathbb N$ is not surjective because $1$ is not in the image.
Here is another natural, more interesting example:
Let $mathbb N' = 2,3,dots $. Then $times: mathbb N' times mathbb N' to mathbb N'$ is not surjective because the prime numbers are not in the image.
edited Sep 5 at 16:11
answered Sep 5 at 16:04
lhf
157k9161374
157k9161374
3
Are these examples natural because they are not contrived, or because they involve $mathbb N$?
â Misha Lavrov
Sep 5 at 22:47
5
@MishaLavrov, natural because the operations are basic ones, not invented.
â lhf
Sep 5 at 22:53
add a comment |Â
3
Are these examples natural because they are not contrived, or because they involve $mathbb N$?
â Misha Lavrov
Sep 5 at 22:47
5
@MishaLavrov, natural because the operations are basic ones, not invented.
â lhf
Sep 5 at 22:53
3
3
Are these examples natural because they are not contrived, or because they involve $mathbb N$?
â Misha Lavrov
Sep 5 at 22:47
Are these examples natural because they are not contrived, or because they involve $mathbb N$?
â Misha Lavrov
Sep 5 at 22:47
5
5
@MishaLavrov, natural because the operations are basic ones, not invented.
â lhf
Sep 5 at 22:53
@MishaLavrov, natural because the operations are basic ones, not invented.
â lhf
Sep 5 at 22:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
In general binary operations are not surjective.
Note that, say, for some set $S$ and a fixed $s in S$ the operation given by $a times b = s$ for all $a,b in S$ is a binary operation.
Just binary operation means really little. It's literally just a function from $Stimes S$ to $S$.
However, if the binary relation has an identity element (or just a left-identity or a right-identity would also suffice), then it can be directly seen that it is surjective. This may or may not be the reason for the discrepancy you observed. It also explains why not few of the most common binary operations are in fact surjective (they have an identity), and further shows a way how to construct some somewhat natural ones that don't.
Note that in the two examples in lhf's answer they judiciously avoided to have the respective natural neutral element in the set.
Let me add some more examples:
The reals greater than $0.5$ with addition. This also works for the reals greater than $t$ for any fixed positive $t$, yet not for the positive reals.
The reals in the interval $[-0.5,0.5]$ with multiplication (works for any closed interval, even non-symmetric ones in $(-1,1)$ yet not for $(-1,1)$ itself).
The reals or also the complex numbers with absolute value greater than $2$ with multiplication (works for greater than $t$ for any fixed $t > 1$, yet not for greater than $1$).
The $n times n$ (real) matrices with determinant greater than $2$ (works for any fixed $t>1$).
However, if the binary relation has a neutral element
- What do you mean by neutral element?
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 17:22
4
@taritgoswami Another term for "identity" element.
â Randall
Sep 5 at 18:09
1
@taritgoswami What Randall said. But maybe your point was that I glossed over the right left issue. I clarified the answer and added a link.
â quidâ¦
Sep 5 at 19:06
@quid Thank you :)
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 20:13
1
+1 for identifying the possible source of the confusion.
â Ilmari Karonen
Sep 6 at 8:54
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
In general binary operations are not surjective.
Note that, say, for some set $S$ and a fixed $s in S$ the operation given by $a times b = s$ for all $a,b in S$ is a binary operation.
Just binary operation means really little. It's literally just a function from $Stimes S$ to $S$.
However, if the binary relation has an identity element (or just a left-identity or a right-identity would also suffice), then it can be directly seen that it is surjective. This may or may not be the reason for the discrepancy you observed. It also explains why not few of the most common binary operations are in fact surjective (they have an identity), and further shows a way how to construct some somewhat natural ones that don't.
Note that in the two examples in lhf's answer they judiciously avoided to have the respective natural neutral element in the set.
Let me add some more examples:
The reals greater than $0.5$ with addition. This also works for the reals greater than $t$ for any fixed positive $t$, yet not for the positive reals.
The reals in the interval $[-0.5,0.5]$ with multiplication (works for any closed interval, even non-symmetric ones in $(-1,1)$ yet not for $(-1,1)$ itself).
The reals or also the complex numbers with absolute value greater than $2$ with multiplication (works for greater than $t$ for any fixed $t > 1$, yet not for greater than $1$).
The $n times n$ (real) matrices with determinant greater than $2$ (works for any fixed $t>1$).
However, if the binary relation has a neutral element
- What do you mean by neutral element?
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 17:22
4
@taritgoswami Another term for "identity" element.
â Randall
Sep 5 at 18:09
1
@taritgoswami What Randall said. But maybe your point was that I glossed over the right left issue. I clarified the answer and added a link.
â quidâ¦
Sep 5 at 19:06
@quid Thank you :)
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 20:13
1
+1 for identifying the possible source of the confusion.
â Ilmari Karonen
Sep 6 at 8:54
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
up vote
12
down vote
In general binary operations are not surjective.
Note that, say, for some set $S$ and a fixed $s in S$ the operation given by $a times b = s$ for all $a,b in S$ is a binary operation.
Just binary operation means really little. It's literally just a function from $Stimes S$ to $S$.
However, if the binary relation has an identity element (or just a left-identity or a right-identity would also suffice), then it can be directly seen that it is surjective. This may or may not be the reason for the discrepancy you observed. It also explains why not few of the most common binary operations are in fact surjective (they have an identity), and further shows a way how to construct some somewhat natural ones that don't.
Note that in the two examples in lhf's answer they judiciously avoided to have the respective natural neutral element in the set.
Let me add some more examples:
The reals greater than $0.5$ with addition. This also works for the reals greater than $t$ for any fixed positive $t$, yet not for the positive reals.
The reals in the interval $[-0.5,0.5]$ with multiplication (works for any closed interval, even non-symmetric ones in $(-1,1)$ yet not for $(-1,1)$ itself).
The reals or also the complex numbers with absolute value greater than $2$ with multiplication (works for greater than $t$ for any fixed $t > 1$, yet not for greater than $1$).
The $n times n$ (real) matrices with determinant greater than $2$ (works for any fixed $t>1$).
In general binary operations are not surjective.
Note that, say, for some set $S$ and a fixed $s in S$ the operation given by $a times b = s$ for all $a,b in S$ is a binary operation.
Just binary operation means really little. It's literally just a function from $Stimes S$ to $S$.
However, if the binary relation has an identity element (or just a left-identity or a right-identity would also suffice), then it can be directly seen that it is surjective. This may or may not be the reason for the discrepancy you observed. It also explains why not few of the most common binary operations are in fact surjective (they have an identity), and further shows a way how to construct some somewhat natural ones that don't.
Note that in the two examples in lhf's answer they judiciously avoided to have the respective natural neutral element in the set.
Let me add some more examples:
The reals greater than $0.5$ with addition. This also works for the reals greater than $t$ for any fixed positive $t$, yet not for the positive reals.
The reals in the interval $[-0.5,0.5]$ with multiplication (works for any closed interval, even non-symmetric ones in $(-1,1)$ yet not for $(-1,1)$ itself).
The reals or also the complex numbers with absolute value greater than $2$ with multiplication (works for greater than $t$ for any fixed $t > 1$, yet not for greater than $1$).
The $n times n$ (real) matrices with determinant greater than $2$ (works for any fixed $t>1$).
edited Sep 5 at 19:05
answered Sep 5 at 16:14
quidâ¦
36.4k85091
36.4k85091
However, if the binary relation has a neutral element
- What do you mean by neutral element?
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 17:22
4
@taritgoswami Another term for "identity" element.
â Randall
Sep 5 at 18:09
1
@taritgoswami What Randall said. But maybe your point was that I glossed over the right left issue. I clarified the answer and added a link.
â quidâ¦
Sep 5 at 19:06
@quid Thank you :)
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 20:13
1
+1 for identifying the possible source of the confusion.
â Ilmari Karonen
Sep 6 at 8:54
add a comment |Â
However, if the binary relation has a neutral element
- What do you mean by neutral element?
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 17:22
4
@taritgoswami Another term for "identity" element.
â Randall
Sep 5 at 18:09
1
@taritgoswami What Randall said. But maybe your point was that I glossed over the right left issue. I clarified the answer and added a link.
â quidâ¦
Sep 5 at 19:06
@quid Thank you :)
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 20:13
1
+1 for identifying the possible source of the confusion.
â Ilmari Karonen
Sep 6 at 8:54
However, if the binary relation has a neutral element
- What do you mean by neutral element?â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 17:22
However, if the binary relation has a neutral element
- What do you mean by neutral element?â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 17:22
4
4
@taritgoswami Another term for "identity" element.
â Randall
Sep 5 at 18:09
@taritgoswami Another term for "identity" element.
â Randall
Sep 5 at 18:09
1
1
@taritgoswami What Randall said. But maybe your point was that I glossed over the right left issue. I clarified the answer and added a link.
â quidâ¦
Sep 5 at 19:06
@taritgoswami What Randall said. But maybe your point was that I glossed over the right left issue. I clarified the answer and added a link.
â quidâ¦
Sep 5 at 19:06
@quid Thank you :)
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 20:13
@quid Thank you :)
â tarit goswami
Sep 5 at 20:13
1
1
+1 for identifying the possible source of the confusion.
â Ilmari Karonen
Sep 6 at 8:54
+1 for identifying the possible source of the confusion.
â Ilmari Karonen
Sep 6 at 8:54
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
I'll give a simple non-fancy example. Consider $f : mathbbR^2 to mathbbR$ defined by $$f(x, y) = 0$$ think of this function as assigning the value $0$ to every point on the plane. Certainly $f$ is a binary operation, but it's as non-surjective as such a function can get.
4
Nor is it injective. Great example of a boring old function that just disproves a statement.
â WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
Sep 5 at 19:40
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
I'll give a simple non-fancy example. Consider $f : mathbbR^2 to mathbbR$ defined by $$f(x, y) = 0$$ think of this function as assigning the value $0$ to every point on the plane. Certainly $f$ is a binary operation, but it's as non-surjective as such a function can get.
4
Nor is it injective. Great example of a boring old function that just disproves a statement.
â WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
Sep 5 at 19:40
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
I'll give a simple non-fancy example. Consider $f : mathbbR^2 to mathbbR$ defined by $$f(x, y) = 0$$ think of this function as assigning the value $0$ to every point on the plane. Certainly $f$ is a binary operation, but it's as non-surjective as such a function can get.
I'll give a simple non-fancy example. Consider $f : mathbbR^2 to mathbbR$ defined by $$f(x, y) = 0$$ think of this function as assigning the value $0$ to every point on the plane. Certainly $f$ is a binary operation, but it's as non-surjective as such a function can get.
answered Sep 5 at 18:46
Perturbative
3,71711140
3,71711140
4
Nor is it injective. Great example of a boring old function that just disproves a statement.
â WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
Sep 5 at 19:40
add a comment |Â
4
Nor is it injective. Great example of a boring old function that just disproves a statement.
â WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
Sep 5 at 19:40
4
4
Nor is it injective. Great example of a boring old function that just disproves a statement.
â WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
Sep 5 at 19:40
Nor is it injective. Great example of a boring old function that just disproves a statement.
â WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
Sep 5 at 19:40
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
If you define operation on a set $S$ as a function from $S times S$ on S, then it has no reason to be surjective, and you and others gave many example on such non surjective functions.
But common true operations are surjective, simply because real world operations are. Almost all (if not all) interesting operation have an invariant element: $i$ for which $ forall x in S, i otimes x = x$. Such an element is enough to guarantee that the operation will be surjective, and all operations with interesting properties have.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
If you define operation on a set $S$ as a function from $S times S$ on S, then it has no reason to be surjective, and you and others gave many example on such non surjective functions.
But common true operations are surjective, simply because real world operations are. Almost all (if not all) interesting operation have an invariant element: $i$ for which $ forall x in S, i otimes x = x$. Such an element is enough to guarantee that the operation will be surjective, and all operations with interesting properties have.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
If you define operation on a set $S$ as a function from $S times S$ on S, then it has no reason to be surjective, and you and others gave many example on such non surjective functions.
But common true operations are surjective, simply because real world operations are. Almost all (if not all) interesting operation have an invariant element: $i$ for which $ forall x in S, i otimes x = x$. Such an element is enough to guarantee that the operation will be surjective, and all operations with interesting properties have.
If you define operation on a set $S$ as a function from $S times S$ on S, then it has no reason to be surjective, and you and others gave many example on such non surjective functions.
But common true operations are surjective, simply because real world operations are. Almost all (if not all) interesting operation have an invariant element: $i$ for which $ forall x in S, i otimes x = x$. Such an element is enough to guarantee that the operation will be surjective, and all operations with interesting properties have.
answered Sep 6 at 11:42
Serge Ballesta
39518
39518
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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16
Binary operations do not need to be surjective.
â Mike Earnest
Sep 5 at 16:02
Are you clear on the difference between codomain and range?
â Eric Towers
Sep 6 at 13:54
Yes, codomain is the set of elements that are being mapped to and the range or image is the subset of the codomain that actually has elements from the domain mapped to it
â WaveX
Sep 6 at 14:51