Karma for the very first birth [duplicate]

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  • Is there the first birth of a jiva soul in the material world or not?

    1 answer



It is explained in the Bhagavad Gita that every life is governed by deeds and actions from past life which is why some people are blessed with a silver spoon in their mouth while some suffer, which means life is pretty much predetermined. Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?










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marked as duplicate by Akshay S, Chinmay Sarupria, The Destroyer Jan 31 at 5:58


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  • 1





    Welcome to Hinduism SE! There is no first birth to start with. Everyone has infinite births going back in time infinitely.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 14:57







  • 3





    @ChinmaySarupria that is an answer to the question.

    – Zanna
    Jan 30 at 15:30






  • 2





    @Zanna I don't have any source so I can't post answer. But this question is already answered before but I haven't been able to find it yet.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 15:33















5
















This question already has an answer here:



  • Is there the first birth of a jiva soul in the material world or not?

    1 answer



It is explained in the Bhagavad Gita that every life is governed by deeds and actions from past life which is why some people are blessed with a silver spoon in their mouth while some suffer, which means life is pretty much predetermined. Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?










share|improve this question















marked as duplicate by Akshay S, Chinmay Sarupria, The Destroyer Jan 31 at 5:58


This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.













  • 1





    Welcome to Hinduism SE! There is no first birth to start with. Everyone has infinite births going back in time infinitely.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 14:57







  • 3





    @ChinmaySarupria that is an answer to the question.

    – Zanna
    Jan 30 at 15:30






  • 2





    @Zanna I don't have any source so I can't post answer. But this question is already answered before but I haven't been able to find it yet.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 15:33













5












5








5


1







This question already has an answer here:



  • Is there the first birth of a jiva soul in the material world or not?

    1 answer



It is explained in the Bhagavad Gita that every life is governed by deeds and actions from past life which is why some people are blessed with a silver spoon in their mouth while some suffer, which means life is pretty much predetermined. Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?










share|improve this question

















This question already has an answer here:



  • Is there the first birth of a jiva soul in the material world or not?

    1 answer



It is explained in the Bhagavad Gita that every life is governed by deeds and actions from past life which is why some people are blessed with a silver spoon in their mouth while some suffer, which means life is pretty much predetermined. Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?





This question already has an answer here:



  • Is there the first birth of a jiva soul in the material world or not?

    1 answer







bhagavad-gita karma rebirth






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edited Jan 30 at 16:58









Sarvabhouma

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asked Jan 30 at 14:45









user1232138user1232138

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1291




marked as duplicate by Akshay S, Chinmay Sarupria, The Destroyer Jan 31 at 5:58


This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.









marked as duplicate by Akshay S, Chinmay Sarupria, The Destroyer Jan 31 at 5:58


This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.









  • 1





    Welcome to Hinduism SE! There is no first birth to start with. Everyone has infinite births going back in time infinitely.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 14:57







  • 3





    @ChinmaySarupria that is an answer to the question.

    – Zanna
    Jan 30 at 15:30






  • 2





    @Zanna I don't have any source so I can't post answer. But this question is already answered before but I haven't been able to find it yet.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 15:33












  • 1





    Welcome to Hinduism SE! There is no first birth to start with. Everyone has infinite births going back in time infinitely.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 14:57







  • 3





    @ChinmaySarupria that is an answer to the question.

    – Zanna
    Jan 30 at 15:30






  • 2





    @Zanna I don't have any source so I can't post answer. But this question is already answered before but I haven't been able to find it yet.

    – Chinmay Sarupria
    Jan 30 at 15:33







1




1





Welcome to Hinduism SE! There is no first birth to start with. Everyone has infinite births going back in time infinitely.

– Chinmay Sarupria
Jan 30 at 14:57






Welcome to Hinduism SE! There is no first birth to start with. Everyone has infinite births going back in time infinitely.

– Chinmay Sarupria
Jan 30 at 14:57





3




3





@ChinmaySarupria that is an answer to the question.

– Zanna
Jan 30 at 15:30





@ChinmaySarupria that is an answer to the question.

– Zanna
Jan 30 at 15:30




2




2





@Zanna I don't have any source so I can't post answer. But this question is already answered before but I haven't been able to find it yet.

– Chinmay Sarupria
Jan 30 at 15:33





@Zanna I don't have any source so I can't post answer. But this question is already answered before but I haven't been able to find it yet.

– Chinmay Sarupria
Jan 30 at 15:33










3 Answers
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Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




According to Vedanta, there is no first birth. The Jivatma has no beginning in the cycle of life and death.



The great Vedantic philosopher Rāmānujāchārya has stated in his work Vedartha Sangraha, or "summary of the meaning of the Vedas," the following:




The crown of Vedas i.e., The Upanishads, which lays down the good of
the whole world, enshrines this truth: A seeker, after first acquiring
a true understanding of the individual self and the Supreme and
equipped with the performance of the duties pertaining to his station
in life, must devote himself to the meditation, worship and adoring
salutation of the blessed feet of the supreme Person. This done with
immeasurable joy leads to the attainment of the Supreme.



The
individual self is subject to beginningless nescience, which has
brought about an accumulation of karma, of the nature of both merit
and demerit.
The flood of such karma causes his entry into four kinds
of bodies — heavenly, human, animal and plant beginning with that of
Brahma downwards. This ingression into bodies produces the delusion of
identity with those respective bodies (and the consequent attachments
and aversions). This delusion inevitably brings about all the fears
inherent in the state of worldly existence. The entire body of Vedanta
aims at the annihilation of these fears.......



The [Brahma Sutra] aphorisms connected with this issue are, ‘Partiality and cruelty
are not to be ascribed to Brahman, because of the dependence on
karma’, and ‘If it be said, “There is no karma, as there was no
differentiation” we deny that supposition on the ground of
beginninglessness; it is reasonable and so found in actuality
(B.S. 2;1:35-36)’.




The Brahma Sutras, written by Rishi Vedavyasa, themselves state that the Jivatma has no beginning in samsara; there was no "first birth."




2.1.34 - Not inequality and cruelty, on account of there being regard; for so (Scripture) declares.



2.1.35 - If it be said 'not so, on account of non-distinction of deeds'; we say, 'not so, on account of beginninglessness'; this is reasonable, and it is also observed.




Ramanujacharya's commentary for Sutra 2.1.35:




But before creation the individual souls do not exist; since Scripture
teaches non-distinction 'Being only this was in the beginning.' And as
then the souls do not exist, no karman can exist, and it cannot
therefore be said that the inequality of creation depends on
karman.--Of this objection the Sûtra disposes by saying 'on account of
beginninglessness,' i.e. although the individual souls and their deeds
form an eternal stream, without a beginning
, yet non-distinction of
them 'is reasonable' (i.e. may reasonably be asserted) in so far as,
previous to creation, the substance of the souls abides in a very
subtle condition, destitute of names and forms, and thus incapable of
being designated as something apart from Brahman, although in reality
then also they constitute Brahman's body only. If it were not admitted
(that the distinctions in the new creation are due to karman), it
would moreover follow that souls are requited for what they have not
done, and not requited for what they have done. The fact of the souls
being without a beginning is observed, viz., to be stated in
Scripture,'The intelligent one is not born and dies not' (Ka. Up. I,
2, 18); so also the fact of the flow of creation going on from all
eternity, 'As the creator formed sun and moon formerly.' Moreover, the
text, 'Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form
and name' (Bri. Up. I, 4, 7), states merely that the names and forms
of the souls were developed, and this shows that the souls themselves
existed from the beginning. Smriti also says, 'Dost thou know both
Prakriti and the soul to be without beginning?' (Bha. Gî. XIII,
19.)--As Brahman thus differs in nature from everything else, possesses all powers, has no other motive than sport, and arranges the
diversity of the creation in accordance with the different karman of
the individual souls, Brahman alone can be the universal cause.





Summary



The Jivatma is eternal (was never created), and has always been in Samsara. According to the Vedas, the Jivatma takes birth in a body according to it's karma done in previous bodies. This implies that the soul has no first birth.






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    2














    You said:




    Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




    Actually, your answer lies very much in the Bhagavad-Gita itself. There is no such thing as "first birth" for a Jiva. "First birth" implies souls are created but that is not the case since every Jiva has always existed just as Bhagavan has always existed. Krishna Himself states this explicitly in the Bhagavad Gita:




    It is not at all that once I did not exist, nor (that) you, nor that all these kings (did not exist at anytime). And surely it is not that all of us shall not be existing hereafter. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.12)




    Sripad Ramanujacharya has tried to rearrange these words to make it more easier to comprehend in his commentary on this verse:




    "I, who am, as you know, the Lord of all, in beginningless time prior to this present, did not cease to exist, that is, did certainly exist. It is not that these embodied souls like you, who are subject to (My) control, did not exist, that is, I and you, "hereafter" that is, after the present time, shall not be existing. We shall (all) be certainly existing. Even as there is no doubt in regard to the fact that I, the Supreme Self and the Lord of all, am eternal in the same manner you (i.e. you, Arjuna and these) who are (all) embodied individual souls, are also seemed to be eternal"...




    Later, in Bhagavad Gita 2.20, Krishna Himself again stress on the eternal nature of the soul:




    Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future). This (Self) which is unborn, eternal, constant and ancient (as well as new), is not slain when the body is slain. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.20)




    So to sum it up, there is no such thing as "first birth" for any individual jiva. Souls are never created, just like Bhagavan is never created. Bhagavan and individual Jivatmas has always existed and will be also remain to do so.






    share|improve this answer

























    • "Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future)." - Then what happens on attainment of moksha. Also its hard to imagine life was there without first birth.

      – user1232138
      Jan 30 at 23:54












    • @user1232138 The soul gets freed from the cycle of rebirth.

      – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
      Jan 31 at 7:47











    • "Also it's hard to imagine life was there without first birth" - Think of a number line where 10 is moksha but there are infinite numbers before 10.

      – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
      Jan 31 at 7:49











    • Thank you Surya, the concept of moksha makes better sense to me now. However I'm still finding it hard to understand how a soul incurs bad karma if it was always present and never born. Who or what ascribes it bad karma and why? Who decides its joy or misery in manifest form? Shouldn't all souls have the same nature and meet the same fate and be joyful or miserable since they were all equal and always present?

      – user1232138
      Jan 31 at 8:10











    • @user1232138 The Jivatma is always eternal but due to eternal, we cant say it has infinite births before. Where this Jivatma was before this Samsara etc.. even if we get answer from texts we wont be satisified because we havent realized. All these answers are found only through yogic sadhana to path of Moksha. Personally I think Jiva has its first birth in Samsara but what caused it is something we ourselves have to find the answer!

      – Akshay S
      Jan 31 at 10:18


















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    According to Sri Krishna, we are born out of the Avyakta and again with death merge with the Avyakta(Gita 2/28):




    O descendant of Bharata, all beings remain unmanifest in the beginning;; they become manifest in the middle. After death they certainly become unmanifest. What lamentation can there be with regard to them? (Translation by swami Gambhirananda)




    This whole creation or Maya is known to be 'Anadi' ie without any beginning.



    Sri Krishna says to Arjuna (Gita, 4/5)




    [The Blessed Lord said O Arjuna,] many lives of Mine have passed, and so have yours. I know them all, (but) you know not, O scorcher of enemies!




    He however assures all by saying (Gita, 7/14):




    Since this divine Maya of Mine which is constituted by the gunas is difficult to cross over, (therefore) those who take refuge in Me alone cross over this Maya.




    (All translations by Swami Gambhirananda)






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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      2















      Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




      According to Vedanta, there is no first birth. The Jivatma has no beginning in the cycle of life and death.



      The great Vedantic philosopher Rāmānujāchārya has stated in his work Vedartha Sangraha, or "summary of the meaning of the Vedas," the following:




      The crown of Vedas i.e., The Upanishads, which lays down the good of
      the whole world, enshrines this truth: A seeker, after first acquiring
      a true understanding of the individual self and the Supreme and
      equipped with the performance of the duties pertaining to his station
      in life, must devote himself to the meditation, worship and adoring
      salutation of the blessed feet of the supreme Person. This done with
      immeasurable joy leads to the attainment of the Supreme.



      The
      individual self is subject to beginningless nescience, which has
      brought about an accumulation of karma, of the nature of both merit
      and demerit.
      The flood of such karma causes his entry into four kinds
      of bodies — heavenly, human, animal and plant beginning with that of
      Brahma downwards. This ingression into bodies produces the delusion of
      identity with those respective bodies (and the consequent attachments
      and aversions). This delusion inevitably brings about all the fears
      inherent in the state of worldly existence. The entire body of Vedanta
      aims at the annihilation of these fears.......



      The [Brahma Sutra] aphorisms connected with this issue are, ‘Partiality and cruelty
      are not to be ascribed to Brahman, because of the dependence on
      karma’, and ‘If it be said, “There is no karma, as there was no
      differentiation” we deny that supposition on the ground of
      beginninglessness; it is reasonable and so found in actuality
      (B.S. 2;1:35-36)’.




      The Brahma Sutras, written by Rishi Vedavyasa, themselves state that the Jivatma has no beginning in samsara; there was no "first birth."




      2.1.34 - Not inequality and cruelty, on account of there being regard; for so (Scripture) declares.



      2.1.35 - If it be said 'not so, on account of non-distinction of deeds'; we say, 'not so, on account of beginninglessness'; this is reasonable, and it is also observed.




      Ramanujacharya's commentary for Sutra 2.1.35:




      But before creation the individual souls do not exist; since Scripture
      teaches non-distinction 'Being only this was in the beginning.' And as
      then the souls do not exist, no karman can exist, and it cannot
      therefore be said that the inequality of creation depends on
      karman.--Of this objection the Sûtra disposes by saying 'on account of
      beginninglessness,' i.e. although the individual souls and their deeds
      form an eternal stream, without a beginning
      , yet non-distinction of
      them 'is reasonable' (i.e. may reasonably be asserted) in so far as,
      previous to creation, the substance of the souls abides in a very
      subtle condition, destitute of names and forms, and thus incapable of
      being designated as something apart from Brahman, although in reality
      then also they constitute Brahman's body only. If it were not admitted
      (that the distinctions in the new creation are due to karman), it
      would moreover follow that souls are requited for what they have not
      done, and not requited for what they have done. The fact of the souls
      being without a beginning is observed, viz., to be stated in
      Scripture,'The intelligent one is not born and dies not' (Ka. Up. I,
      2, 18); so also the fact of the flow of creation going on from all
      eternity, 'As the creator formed sun and moon formerly.' Moreover, the
      text, 'Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form
      and name' (Bri. Up. I, 4, 7), states merely that the names and forms
      of the souls were developed, and this shows that the souls themselves
      existed from the beginning. Smriti also says, 'Dost thou know both
      Prakriti and the soul to be without beginning?' (Bha. Gî. XIII,
      19.)--As Brahman thus differs in nature from everything else, possesses all powers, has no other motive than sport, and arranges the
      diversity of the creation in accordance with the different karman of
      the individual souls, Brahman alone can be the universal cause.





      Summary



      The Jivatma is eternal (was never created), and has always been in Samsara. According to the Vedas, the Jivatma takes birth in a body according to it's karma done in previous bodies. This implies that the soul has no first birth.






      share|improve this answer





























        2















        Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




        According to Vedanta, there is no first birth. The Jivatma has no beginning in the cycle of life and death.



        The great Vedantic philosopher Rāmānujāchārya has stated in his work Vedartha Sangraha, or "summary of the meaning of the Vedas," the following:




        The crown of Vedas i.e., The Upanishads, which lays down the good of
        the whole world, enshrines this truth: A seeker, after first acquiring
        a true understanding of the individual self and the Supreme and
        equipped with the performance of the duties pertaining to his station
        in life, must devote himself to the meditation, worship and adoring
        salutation of the blessed feet of the supreme Person. This done with
        immeasurable joy leads to the attainment of the Supreme.



        The
        individual self is subject to beginningless nescience, which has
        brought about an accumulation of karma, of the nature of both merit
        and demerit.
        The flood of such karma causes his entry into four kinds
        of bodies — heavenly, human, animal and plant beginning with that of
        Brahma downwards. This ingression into bodies produces the delusion of
        identity with those respective bodies (and the consequent attachments
        and aversions). This delusion inevitably brings about all the fears
        inherent in the state of worldly existence. The entire body of Vedanta
        aims at the annihilation of these fears.......



        The [Brahma Sutra] aphorisms connected with this issue are, ‘Partiality and cruelty
        are not to be ascribed to Brahman, because of the dependence on
        karma’, and ‘If it be said, “There is no karma, as there was no
        differentiation” we deny that supposition on the ground of
        beginninglessness; it is reasonable and so found in actuality
        (B.S. 2;1:35-36)’.




        The Brahma Sutras, written by Rishi Vedavyasa, themselves state that the Jivatma has no beginning in samsara; there was no "first birth."




        2.1.34 - Not inequality and cruelty, on account of there being regard; for so (Scripture) declares.



        2.1.35 - If it be said 'not so, on account of non-distinction of deeds'; we say, 'not so, on account of beginninglessness'; this is reasonable, and it is also observed.




        Ramanujacharya's commentary for Sutra 2.1.35:




        But before creation the individual souls do not exist; since Scripture
        teaches non-distinction 'Being only this was in the beginning.' And as
        then the souls do not exist, no karman can exist, and it cannot
        therefore be said that the inequality of creation depends on
        karman.--Of this objection the Sûtra disposes by saying 'on account of
        beginninglessness,' i.e. although the individual souls and their deeds
        form an eternal stream, without a beginning
        , yet non-distinction of
        them 'is reasonable' (i.e. may reasonably be asserted) in so far as,
        previous to creation, the substance of the souls abides in a very
        subtle condition, destitute of names and forms, and thus incapable of
        being designated as something apart from Brahman, although in reality
        then also they constitute Brahman's body only. If it were not admitted
        (that the distinctions in the new creation are due to karman), it
        would moreover follow that souls are requited for what they have not
        done, and not requited for what they have done. The fact of the souls
        being without a beginning is observed, viz., to be stated in
        Scripture,'The intelligent one is not born and dies not' (Ka. Up. I,
        2, 18); so also the fact of the flow of creation going on from all
        eternity, 'As the creator formed sun and moon formerly.' Moreover, the
        text, 'Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form
        and name' (Bri. Up. I, 4, 7), states merely that the names and forms
        of the souls were developed, and this shows that the souls themselves
        existed from the beginning. Smriti also says, 'Dost thou know both
        Prakriti and the soul to be without beginning?' (Bha. Gî. XIII,
        19.)--As Brahman thus differs in nature from everything else, possesses all powers, has no other motive than sport, and arranges the
        diversity of the creation in accordance with the different karman of
        the individual souls, Brahman alone can be the universal cause.





        Summary



        The Jivatma is eternal (was never created), and has always been in Samsara. According to the Vedas, the Jivatma takes birth in a body according to it's karma done in previous bodies. This implies that the soul has no first birth.






        share|improve this answer



























          2












          2








          2








          Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




          According to Vedanta, there is no first birth. The Jivatma has no beginning in the cycle of life and death.



          The great Vedantic philosopher Rāmānujāchārya has stated in his work Vedartha Sangraha, or "summary of the meaning of the Vedas," the following:




          The crown of Vedas i.e., The Upanishads, which lays down the good of
          the whole world, enshrines this truth: A seeker, after first acquiring
          a true understanding of the individual self and the Supreme and
          equipped with the performance of the duties pertaining to his station
          in life, must devote himself to the meditation, worship and adoring
          salutation of the blessed feet of the supreme Person. This done with
          immeasurable joy leads to the attainment of the Supreme.



          The
          individual self is subject to beginningless nescience, which has
          brought about an accumulation of karma, of the nature of both merit
          and demerit.
          The flood of such karma causes his entry into four kinds
          of bodies — heavenly, human, animal and plant beginning with that of
          Brahma downwards. This ingression into bodies produces the delusion of
          identity with those respective bodies (and the consequent attachments
          and aversions). This delusion inevitably brings about all the fears
          inherent in the state of worldly existence. The entire body of Vedanta
          aims at the annihilation of these fears.......



          The [Brahma Sutra] aphorisms connected with this issue are, ‘Partiality and cruelty
          are not to be ascribed to Brahman, because of the dependence on
          karma’, and ‘If it be said, “There is no karma, as there was no
          differentiation” we deny that supposition on the ground of
          beginninglessness; it is reasonable and so found in actuality
          (B.S. 2;1:35-36)’.




          The Brahma Sutras, written by Rishi Vedavyasa, themselves state that the Jivatma has no beginning in samsara; there was no "first birth."




          2.1.34 - Not inequality and cruelty, on account of there being regard; for so (Scripture) declares.



          2.1.35 - If it be said 'not so, on account of non-distinction of deeds'; we say, 'not so, on account of beginninglessness'; this is reasonable, and it is also observed.




          Ramanujacharya's commentary for Sutra 2.1.35:




          But before creation the individual souls do not exist; since Scripture
          teaches non-distinction 'Being only this was in the beginning.' And as
          then the souls do not exist, no karman can exist, and it cannot
          therefore be said that the inequality of creation depends on
          karman.--Of this objection the Sûtra disposes by saying 'on account of
          beginninglessness,' i.e. although the individual souls and their deeds
          form an eternal stream, without a beginning
          , yet non-distinction of
          them 'is reasonable' (i.e. may reasonably be asserted) in so far as,
          previous to creation, the substance of the souls abides in a very
          subtle condition, destitute of names and forms, and thus incapable of
          being designated as something apart from Brahman, although in reality
          then also they constitute Brahman's body only. If it were not admitted
          (that the distinctions in the new creation are due to karman), it
          would moreover follow that souls are requited for what they have not
          done, and not requited for what they have done. The fact of the souls
          being without a beginning is observed, viz., to be stated in
          Scripture,'The intelligent one is not born and dies not' (Ka. Up. I,
          2, 18); so also the fact of the flow of creation going on from all
          eternity, 'As the creator formed sun and moon formerly.' Moreover, the
          text, 'Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form
          and name' (Bri. Up. I, 4, 7), states merely that the names and forms
          of the souls were developed, and this shows that the souls themselves
          existed from the beginning. Smriti also says, 'Dost thou know both
          Prakriti and the soul to be without beginning?' (Bha. Gî. XIII,
          19.)--As Brahman thus differs in nature from everything else, possesses all powers, has no other motive than sport, and arranges the
          diversity of the creation in accordance with the different karman of
          the individual souls, Brahman alone can be the universal cause.





          Summary



          The Jivatma is eternal (was never created), and has always been in Samsara. According to the Vedas, the Jivatma takes birth in a body according to it's karma done in previous bodies. This implies that the soul has no first birth.






          share|improve this answer
















          Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




          According to Vedanta, there is no first birth. The Jivatma has no beginning in the cycle of life and death.



          The great Vedantic philosopher Rāmānujāchārya has stated in his work Vedartha Sangraha, or "summary of the meaning of the Vedas," the following:




          The crown of Vedas i.e., The Upanishads, which lays down the good of
          the whole world, enshrines this truth: A seeker, after first acquiring
          a true understanding of the individual self and the Supreme and
          equipped with the performance of the duties pertaining to his station
          in life, must devote himself to the meditation, worship and adoring
          salutation of the blessed feet of the supreme Person. This done with
          immeasurable joy leads to the attainment of the Supreme.



          The
          individual self is subject to beginningless nescience, which has
          brought about an accumulation of karma, of the nature of both merit
          and demerit.
          The flood of such karma causes his entry into four kinds
          of bodies — heavenly, human, animal and plant beginning with that of
          Brahma downwards. This ingression into bodies produces the delusion of
          identity with those respective bodies (and the consequent attachments
          and aversions). This delusion inevitably brings about all the fears
          inherent in the state of worldly existence. The entire body of Vedanta
          aims at the annihilation of these fears.......



          The [Brahma Sutra] aphorisms connected with this issue are, ‘Partiality and cruelty
          are not to be ascribed to Brahman, because of the dependence on
          karma’, and ‘If it be said, “There is no karma, as there was no
          differentiation” we deny that supposition on the ground of
          beginninglessness; it is reasonable and so found in actuality
          (B.S. 2;1:35-36)’.




          The Brahma Sutras, written by Rishi Vedavyasa, themselves state that the Jivatma has no beginning in samsara; there was no "first birth."




          2.1.34 - Not inequality and cruelty, on account of there being regard; for so (Scripture) declares.



          2.1.35 - If it be said 'not so, on account of non-distinction of deeds'; we say, 'not so, on account of beginninglessness'; this is reasonable, and it is also observed.




          Ramanujacharya's commentary for Sutra 2.1.35:




          But before creation the individual souls do not exist; since Scripture
          teaches non-distinction 'Being only this was in the beginning.' And as
          then the souls do not exist, no karman can exist, and it cannot
          therefore be said that the inequality of creation depends on
          karman.--Of this objection the Sûtra disposes by saying 'on account of
          beginninglessness,' i.e. although the individual souls and their deeds
          form an eternal stream, without a beginning
          , yet non-distinction of
          them 'is reasonable' (i.e. may reasonably be asserted) in so far as,
          previous to creation, the substance of the souls abides in a very
          subtle condition, destitute of names and forms, and thus incapable of
          being designated as something apart from Brahman, although in reality
          then also they constitute Brahman's body only. If it were not admitted
          (that the distinctions in the new creation are due to karman), it
          would moreover follow that souls are requited for what they have not
          done, and not requited for what they have done. The fact of the souls
          being without a beginning is observed, viz., to be stated in
          Scripture,'The intelligent one is not born and dies not' (Ka. Up. I,
          2, 18); so also the fact of the flow of creation going on from all
          eternity, 'As the creator formed sun and moon formerly.' Moreover, the
          text, 'Now all this was then undeveloped. It became developed by form
          and name' (Bri. Up. I, 4, 7), states merely that the names and forms
          of the souls were developed, and this shows that the souls themselves
          existed from the beginning. Smriti also says, 'Dost thou know both
          Prakriti and the soul to be without beginning?' (Bha. Gî. XIII,
          19.)--As Brahman thus differs in nature from everything else, possesses all powers, has no other motive than sport, and arranges the
          diversity of the creation in accordance with the different karman of
          the individual souls, Brahman alone can be the universal cause.





          Summary



          The Jivatma is eternal (was never created), and has always been in Samsara. According to the Vedas, the Jivatma takes birth in a body according to it's karma done in previous bodies. This implies that the soul has no first birth.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Jan 30 at 17:57

























          answered Jan 30 at 17:45









          IkshvakuIkshvaku

          1




          1





















              2














              You said:




              Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




              Actually, your answer lies very much in the Bhagavad-Gita itself. There is no such thing as "first birth" for a Jiva. "First birth" implies souls are created but that is not the case since every Jiva has always existed just as Bhagavan has always existed. Krishna Himself states this explicitly in the Bhagavad Gita:




              It is not at all that once I did not exist, nor (that) you, nor that all these kings (did not exist at anytime). And surely it is not that all of us shall not be existing hereafter. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.12)




              Sripad Ramanujacharya has tried to rearrange these words to make it more easier to comprehend in his commentary on this verse:




              "I, who am, as you know, the Lord of all, in beginningless time prior to this present, did not cease to exist, that is, did certainly exist. It is not that these embodied souls like you, who are subject to (My) control, did not exist, that is, I and you, "hereafter" that is, after the present time, shall not be existing. We shall (all) be certainly existing. Even as there is no doubt in regard to the fact that I, the Supreme Self and the Lord of all, am eternal in the same manner you (i.e. you, Arjuna and these) who are (all) embodied individual souls, are also seemed to be eternal"...




              Later, in Bhagavad Gita 2.20, Krishna Himself again stress on the eternal nature of the soul:




              Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future). This (Self) which is unborn, eternal, constant and ancient (as well as new), is not slain when the body is slain. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.20)




              So to sum it up, there is no such thing as "first birth" for any individual jiva. Souls are never created, just like Bhagavan is never created. Bhagavan and individual Jivatmas has always existed and will be also remain to do so.






              share|improve this answer

























              • "Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future)." - Then what happens on attainment of moksha. Also its hard to imagine life was there without first birth.

                – user1232138
                Jan 30 at 23:54












              • @user1232138 The soul gets freed from the cycle of rebirth.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:47











              • "Also it's hard to imagine life was there without first birth" - Think of a number line where 10 is moksha but there are infinite numbers before 10.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:49











              • Thank you Surya, the concept of moksha makes better sense to me now. However I'm still finding it hard to understand how a soul incurs bad karma if it was always present and never born. Who or what ascribes it bad karma and why? Who decides its joy or misery in manifest form? Shouldn't all souls have the same nature and meet the same fate and be joyful or miserable since they were all equal and always present?

                – user1232138
                Jan 31 at 8:10











              • @user1232138 The Jivatma is always eternal but due to eternal, we cant say it has infinite births before. Where this Jivatma was before this Samsara etc.. even if we get answer from texts we wont be satisified because we havent realized. All these answers are found only through yogic sadhana to path of Moksha. Personally I think Jiva has its first birth in Samsara but what caused it is something we ourselves have to find the answer!

                – Akshay S
                Jan 31 at 10:18















              2














              You said:




              Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




              Actually, your answer lies very much in the Bhagavad-Gita itself. There is no such thing as "first birth" for a Jiva. "First birth" implies souls are created but that is not the case since every Jiva has always existed just as Bhagavan has always existed. Krishna Himself states this explicitly in the Bhagavad Gita:




              It is not at all that once I did not exist, nor (that) you, nor that all these kings (did not exist at anytime). And surely it is not that all of us shall not be existing hereafter. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.12)




              Sripad Ramanujacharya has tried to rearrange these words to make it more easier to comprehend in his commentary on this verse:




              "I, who am, as you know, the Lord of all, in beginningless time prior to this present, did not cease to exist, that is, did certainly exist. It is not that these embodied souls like you, who are subject to (My) control, did not exist, that is, I and you, "hereafter" that is, after the present time, shall not be existing. We shall (all) be certainly existing. Even as there is no doubt in regard to the fact that I, the Supreme Self and the Lord of all, am eternal in the same manner you (i.e. you, Arjuna and these) who are (all) embodied individual souls, are also seemed to be eternal"...




              Later, in Bhagavad Gita 2.20, Krishna Himself again stress on the eternal nature of the soul:




              Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future). This (Self) which is unborn, eternal, constant and ancient (as well as new), is not slain when the body is slain. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.20)




              So to sum it up, there is no such thing as "first birth" for any individual jiva. Souls are never created, just like Bhagavan is never created. Bhagavan and individual Jivatmas has always existed and will be also remain to do so.






              share|improve this answer

























              • "Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future)." - Then what happens on attainment of moksha. Also its hard to imagine life was there without first birth.

                – user1232138
                Jan 30 at 23:54












              • @user1232138 The soul gets freed from the cycle of rebirth.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:47











              • "Also it's hard to imagine life was there without first birth" - Think of a number line where 10 is moksha but there are infinite numbers before 10.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:49











              • Thank you Surya, the concept of moksha makes better sense to me now. However I'm still finding it hard to understand how a soul incurs bad karma if it was always present and never born. Who or what ascribes it bad karma and why? Who decides its joy or misery in manifest form? Shouldn't all souls have the same nature and meet the same fate and be joyful or miserable since they were all equal and always present?

                – user1232138
                Jan 31 at 8:10











              • @user1232138 The Jivatma is always eternal but due to eternal, we cant say it has infinite births before. Where this Jivatma was before this Samsara etc.. even if we get answer from texts we wont be satisified because we havent realized. All these answers are found only through yogic sadhana to path of Moksha. Personally I think Jiva has its first birth in Samsara but what caused it is something we ourselves have to find the answer!

                – Akshay S
                Jan 31 at 10:18













              2












              2








              2







              You said:




              Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




              Actually, your answer lies very much in the Bhagavad-Gita itself. There is no such thing as "first birth" for a Jiva. "First birth" implies souls are created but that is not the case since every Jiva has always existed just as Bhagavan has always existed. Krishna Himself states this explicitly in the Bhagavad Gita:




              It is not at all that once I did not exist, nor (that) you, nor that all these kings (did not exist at anytime). And surely it is not that all of us shall not be existing hereafter. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.12)




              Sripad Ramanujacharya has tried to rearrange these words to make it more easier to comprehend in his commentary on this verse:




              "I, who am, as you know, the Lord of all, in beginningless time prior to this present, did not cease to exist, that is, did certainly exist. It is not that these embodied souls like you, who are subject to (My) control, did not exist, that is, I and you, "hereafter" that is, after the present time, shall not be existing. We shall (all) be certainly existing. Even as there is no doubt in regard to the fact that I, the Supreme Self and the Lord of all, am eternal in the same manner you (i.e. you, Arjuna and these) who are (all) embodied individual souls, are also seemed to be eternal"...




              Later, in Bhagavad Gita 2.20, Krishna Himself again stress on the eternal nature of the soul:




              Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future). This (Self) which is unborn, eternal, constant and ancient (as well as new), is not slain when the body is slain. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.20)




              So to sum it up, there is no such thing as "first birth" for any individual jiva. Souls are never created, just like Bhagavan is never created. Bhagavan and individual Jivatmas has always existed and will be also remain to do so.






              share|improve this answer















              You said:




              Now how will the life be determined for people in their very first birth since they have no previous birth to derive from ?




              Actually, your answer lies very much in the Bhagavad-Gita itself. There is no such thing as "first birth" for a Jiva. "First birth" implies souls are created but that is not the case since every Jiva has always existed just as Bhagavan has always existed. Krishna Himself states this explicitly in the Bhagavad Gita:




              It is not at all that once I did not exist, nor (that) you, nor that all these kings (did not exist at anytime). And surely it is not that all of us shall not be existing hereafter. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.12)




              Sripad Ramanujacharya has tried to rearrange these words to make it more easier to comprehend in his commentary on this verse:




              "I, who am, as you know, the Lord of all, in beginningless time prior to this present, did not cease to exist, that is, did certainly exist. It is not that these embodied souls like you, who are subject to (My) control, did not exist, that is, I and you, "hereafter" that is, after the present time, shall not be existing. We shall (all) be certainly existing. Even as there is no doubt in regard to the fact that I, the Supreme Self and the Lord of all, am eternal in the same manner you (i.e. you, Arjuna and these) who are (all) embodied individual souls, are also seemed to be eternal"...




              Later, in Bhagavad Gita 2.20, Krishna Himself again stress on the eternal nature of the soul:




              Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future). This (Self) which is unborn, eternal, constant and ancient (as well as new), is not slain when the body is slain. (Bhagavad-Gita 2.20)




              So to sum it up, there is no such thing as "first birth" for any individual jiva. Souls are never created, just like Bhagavan is never created. Bhagavan and individual Jivatmas has always existed and will be also remain to do so.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Jan 31 at 7:54

























              answered Jan 30 at 17:33









              Surya Kanta Bose ChowdhurySurya Kanta Bose Chowdhury

              7,63431567




              7,63431567












              • "Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future)." - Then what happens on attainment of moksha. Also its hard to imagine life was there without first birth.

                – user1232138
                Jan 30 at 23:54












              • @user1232138 The soul gets freed from the cycle of rebirth.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:47











              • "Also it's hard to imagine life was there without first birth" - Think of a number line where 10 is moksha but there are infinite numbers before 10.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:49











              • Thank you Surya, the concept of moksha makes better sense to me now. However I'm still finding it hard to understand how a soul incurs bad karma if it was always present and never born. Who or what ascribes it bad karma and why? Who decides its joy or misery in manifest form? Shouldn't all souls have the same nature and meet the same fate and be joyful or miserable since they were all equal and always present?

                – user1232138
                Jan 31 at 8:10











              • @user1232138 The Jivatma is always eternal but due to eternal, we cant say it has infinite births before. Where this Jivatma was before this Samsara etc.. even if we get answer from texts we wont be satisified because we havent realized. All these answers are found only through yogic sadhana to path of Moksha. Personally I think Jiva has its first birth in Samsara but what caused it is something we ourselves have to find the answer!

                – Akshay S
                Jan 31 at 10:18

















              • "Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future)." - Then what happens on attainment of moksha. Also its hard to imagine life was there without first birth.

                – user1232138
                Jan 30 at 23:54












              • @user1232138 The soul gets freed from the cycle of rebirth.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:47











              • "Also it's hard to imagine life was there without first birth" - Think of a number line where 10 is moksha but there are infinite numbers before 10.

                – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
                Jan 31 at 7:49











              • Thank you Surya, the concept of moksha makes better sense to me now. However I'm still finding it hard to understand how a soul incurs bad karma if it was always present and never born. Who or what ascribes it bad karma and why? Who decides its joy or misery in manifest form? Shouldn't all souls have the same nature and meet the same fate and be joyful or miserable since they were all equal and always present?

                – user1232138
                Jan 31 at 8:10











              • @user1232138 The Jivatma is always eternal but due to eternal, we cant say it has infinite births before. Where this Jivatma was before this Samsara etc.. even if we get answer from texts we wont be satisified because we havent realized. All these answers are found only through yogic sadhana to path of Moksha. Personally I think Jiva has its first birth in Samsara but what caused it is something we ourselves have to find the answer!

                – Akshay S
                Jan 31 at 10:18
















              "Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future)." - Then what happens on attainment of moksha. Also its hard to imagine life was there without first birth.

              – user1232138
              Jan 30 at 23:54






              "Neither is this (Self) ever born, nor does (it) ever die. It cannot be that it (i.e. this Self), having been in existence (in the past), will not be in existence again (in the future)." - Then what happens on attainment of moksha. Also its hard to imagine life was there without first birth.

              – user1232138
              Jan 30 at 23:54














              @user1232138 The soul gets freed from the cycle of rebirth.

              – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
              Jan 31 at 7:47





              @user1232138 The soul gets freed from the cycle of rebirth.

              – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
              Jan 31 at 7:47













              "Also it's hard to imagine life was there without first birth" - Think of a number line where 10 is moksha but there are infinite numbers before 10.

              – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
              Jan 31 at 7:49





              "Also it's hard to imagine life was there without first birth" - Think of a number line where 10 is moksha but there are infinite numbers before 10.

              – Surya Kanta Bose Chowdhury
              Jan 31 at 7:49













              Thank you Surya, the concept of moksha makes better sense to me now. However I'm still finding it hard to understand how a soul incurs bad karma if it was always present and never born. Who or what ascribes it bad karma and why? Who decides its joy or misery in manifest form? Shouldn't all souls have the same nature and meet the same fate and be joyful or miserable since they were all equal and always present?

              – user1232138
              Jan 31 at 8:10





              Thank you Surya, the concept of moksha makes better sense to me now. However I'm still finding it hard to understand how a soul incurs bad karma if it was always present and never born. Who or what ascribes it bad karma and why? Who decides its joy or misery in manifest form? Shouldn't all souls have the same nature and meet the same fate and be joyful or miserable since they were all equal and always present?

              – user1232138
              Jan 31 at 8:10













              @user1232138 The Jivatma is always eternal but due to eternal, we cant say it has infinite births before. Where this Jivatma was before this Samsara etc.. even if we get answer from texts we wont be satisified because we havent realized. All these answers are found only through yogic sadhana to path of Moksha. Personally I think Jiva has its first birth in Samsara but what caused it is something we ourselves have to find the answer!

              – Akshay S
              Jan 31 at 10:18





              @user1232138 The Jivatma is always eternal but due to eternal, we cant say it has infinite births before. Where this Jivatma was before this Samsara etc.. even if we get answer from texts we wont be satisified because we havent realized. All these answers are found only through yogic sadhana to path of Moksha. Personally I think Jiva has its first birth in Samsara but what caused it is something we ourselves have to find the answer!

              – Akshay S
              Jan 31 at 10:18











              1














              According to Sri Krishna, we are born out of the Avyakta and again with death merge with the Avyakta(Gita 2/28):




              O descendant of Bharata, all beings remain unmanifest in the beginning;; they become manifest in the middle. After death they certainly become unmanifest. What lamentation can there be with regard to them? (Translation by swami Gambhirananda)




              This whole creation or Maya is known to be 'Anadi' ie without any beginning.



              Sri Krishna says to Arjuna (Gita, 4/5)




              [The Blessed Lord said O Arjuna,] many lives of Mine have passed, and so have yours. I know them all, (but) you know not, O scorcher of enemies!




              He however assures all by saying (Gita, 7/14):




              Since this divine Maya of Mine which is constituted by the gunas is difficult to cross over, (therefore) those who take refuge in Me alone cross over this Maya.




              (All translations by Swami Gambhirananda)






              share|improve this answer





























                1














                According to Sri Krishna, we are born out of the Avyakta and again with death merge with the Avyakta(Gita 2/28):




                O descendant of Bharata, all beings remain unmanifest in the beginning;; they become manifest in the middle. After death they certainly become unmanifest. What lamentation can there be with regard to them? (Translation by swami Gambhirananda)




                This whole creation or Maya is known to be 'Anadi' ie without any beginning.



                Sri Krishna says to Arjuna (Gita, 4/5)




                [The Blessed Lord said O Arjuna,] many lives of Mine have passed, and so have yours. I know them all, (but) you know not, O scorcher of enemies!




                He however assures all by saying (Gita, 7/14):




                Since this divine Maya of Mine which is constituted by the gunas is difficult to cross over, (therefore) those who take refuge in Me alone cross over this Maya.




                (All translations by Swami Gambhirananda)






                share|improve this answer



























                  1












                  1








                  1







                  According to Sri Krishna, we are born out of the Avyakta and again with death merge with the Avyakta(Gita 2/28):




                  O descendant of Bharata, all beings remain unmanifest in the beginning;; they become manifest in the middle. After death they certainly become unmanifest. What lamentation can there be with regard to them? (Translation by swami Gambhirananda)




                  This whole creation or Maya is known to be 'Anadi' ie without any beginning.



                  Sri Krishna says to Arjuna (Gita, 4/5)




                  [The Blessed Lord said O Arjuna,] many lives of Mine have passed, and so have yours. I know them all, (but) you know not, O scorcher of enemies!




                  He however assures all by saying (Gita, 7/14):




                  Since this divine Maya of Mine which is constituted by the gunas is difficult to cross over, (therefore) those who take refuge in Me alone cross over this Maya.




                  (All translations by Swami Gambhirananda)






                  share|improve this answer















                  According to Sri Krishna, we are born out of the Avyakta and again with death merge with the Avyakta(Gita 2/28):




                  O descendant of Bharata, all beings remain unmanifest in the beginning;; they become manifest in the middle. After death they certainly become unmanifest. What lamentation can there be with regard to them? (Translation by swami Gambhirananda)




                  This whole creation or Maya is known to be 'Anadi' ie without any beginning.



                  Sri Krishna says to Arjuna (Gita, 4/5)




                  [The Blessed Lord said O Arjuna,] many lives of Mine have passed, and so have yours. I know them all, (but) you know not, O scorcher of enemies!




                  He however assures all by saying (Gita, 7/14):




                  Since this divine Maya of Mine which is constituted by the gunas is difficult to cross over, (therefore) those who take refuge in Me alone cross over this Maya.




                  (All translations by Swami Gambhirananda)







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Jan 30 at 16:25









                  Akshay S

                  1,0651328




                  1,0651328










                  answered Jan 30 at 15:42









                  ParthaPartha

                  3,703230




                  3,703230












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