After successfully hitting with an attack roll, when rolling for damage, if you roll a 1, is that a negative crit?

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Our dm is treating our "1" damage rolls as a natural 1. So when you roll a 1d4 and you do 1 dmg (after succeeding hit dice) we get an especially bad outcome. Is this normal procedure?










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    Welcome to rpg.se! Have you taken the tour? It's a great place to start. This is an excellent first question. Thanks for participating and happy gaming!
    – linksassin
    Nov 19 at 5:18






  • 9




    This is a related answer about critical fails, and what's wrong with them, by @KRyan that I think is worth the time to read. I'd share it with your DM. Even though it's an answer for 3.5e, the same punishment factor on PCs (who roll dice a lot and who will thus get a lot of 1's) is worth consideration.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 19 at 15:37







  • 5




    What if there are multiple damage dice rolled? Does a rogue keep getting a higher chance of failure when they add sneak attack dice?
    – Mookuh
    Nov 19 at 16:21






  • 9




    Does this DM also give you a critical success when you roll a 4 on your d4 damage die?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 19 at 20:13






  • 3




    That certainly would make 1d12 weapons far more attractive...
    – Michael W.
    Nov 20 at 0:21














up vote
46
down vote

favorite
3












Our dm is treating our "1" damage rolls as a natural 1. So when you roll a 1d4 and you do 1 dmg (after succeeding hit dice) we get an especially bad outcome. Is this normal procedure?










share|improve this question









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  • 1




    Welcome to rpg.se! Have you taken the tour? It's a great place to start. This is an excellent first question. Thanks for participating and happy gaming!
    – linksassin
    Nov 19 at 5:18






  • 9




    This is a related answer about critical fails, and what's wrong with them, by @KRyan that I think is worth the time to read. I'd share it with your DM. Even though it's an answer for 3.5e, the same punishment factor on PCs (who roll dice a lot and who will thus get a lot of 1's) is worth consideration.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 19 at 15:37







  • 5




    What if there are multiple damage dice rolled? Does a rogue keep getting a higher chance of failure when they add sneak attack dice?
    – Mookuh
    Nov 19 at 16:21






  • 9




    Does this DM also give you a critical success when you roll a 4 on your d4 damage die?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 19 at 20:13






  • 3




    That certainly would make 1d12 weapons far more attractive...
    – Michael W.
    Nov 20 at 0:21












up vote
46
down vote

favorite
3









up vote
46
down vote

favorite
3






3





Our dm is treating our "1" damage rolls as a natural 1. So when you roll a 1d4 and you do 1 dmg (after succeeding hit dice) we get an especially bad outcome. Is this normal procedure?










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Our dm is treating our "1" damage rolls as a natural 1. So when you roll a 1d4 and you do 1 dmg (after succeeding hit dice) we get an especially bad outcome. Is this normal procedure?







dnd-5e damage critical-fail






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edited Nov 20 at 6:23









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  • 1




    Welcome to rpg.se! Have you taken the tour? It's a great place to start. This is an excellent first question. Thanks for participating and happy gaming!
    – linksassin
    Nov 19 at 5:18






  • 9




    This is a related answer about critical fails, and what's wrong with them, by @KRyan that I think is worth the time to read. I'd share it with your DM. Even though it's an answer for 3.5e, the same punishment factor on PCs (who roll dice a lot and who will thus get a lot of 1's) is worth consideration.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 19 at 15:37







  • 5




    What if there are multiple damage dice rolled? Does a rogue keep getting a higher chance of failure when they add sneak attack dice?
    – Mookuh
    Nov 19 at 16:21






  • 9




    Does this DM also give you a critical success when you roll a 4 on your d4 damage die?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 19 at 20:13






  • 3




    That certainly would make 1d12 weapons far more attractive...
    – Michael W.
    Nov 20 at 0:21












  • 1




    Welcome to rpg.se! Have you taken the tour? It's a great place to start. This is an excellent first question. Thanks for participating and happy gaming!
    – linksassin
    Nov 19 at 5:18






  • 9




    This is a related answer about critical fails, and what's wrong with them, by @KRyan that I think is worth the time to read. I'd share it with your DM. Even though it's an answer for 3.5e, the same punishment factor on PCs (who roll dice a lot and who will thus get a lot of 1's) is worth consideration.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 19 at 15:37







  • 5




    What if there are multiple damage dice rolled? Does a rogue keep getting a higher chance of failure when they add sneak attack dice?
    – Mookuh
    Nov 19 at 16:21






  • 9




    Does this DM also give you a critical success when you roll a 4 on your d4 damage die?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 19 at 20:13






  • 3




    That certainly would make 1d12 weapons far more attractive...
    – Michael W.
    Nov 20 at 0:21







1




1




Welcome to rpg.se! Have you taken the tour? It's a great place to start. This is an excellent first question. Thanks for participating and happy gaming!
– linksassin
Nov 19 at 5:18




Welcome to rpg.se! Have you taken the tour? It's a great place to start. This is an excellent first question. Thanks for participating and happy gaming!
– linksassin
Nov 19 at 5:18




9




9




This is a related answer about critical fails, and what's wrong with them, by @KRyan that I think is worth the time to read. I'd share it with your DM. Even though it's an answer for 3.5e, the same punishment factor on PCs (who roll dice a lot and who will thus get a lot of 1's) is worth consideration.
– KorvinStarmast
Nov 19 at 15:37





This is a related answer about critical fails, and what's wrong with them, by @KRyan that I think is worth the time to read. I'd share it with your DM. Even though it's an answer for 3.5e, the same punishment factor on PCs (who roll dice a lot and who will thus get a lot of 1's) is worth consideration.
– KorvinStarmast
Nov 19 at 15:37





5




5




What if there are multiple damage dice rolled? Does a rogue keep getting a higher chance of failure when they add sneak attack dice?
– Mookuh
Nov 19 at 16:21




What if there are multiple damage dice rolled? Does a rogue keep getting a higher chance of failure when they add sneak attack dice?
– Mookuh
Nov 19 at 16:21




9




9




Does this DM also give you a critical success when you roll a 4 on your d4 damage die?
– Mark Wells
Nov 19 at 20:13




Does this DM also give you a critical success when you roll a 4 on your d4 damage die?
– Mark Wells
Nov 19 at 20:13




3




3




That certainly would make 1d12 weapons far more attractive...
– Michael W.
Nov 20 at 0:21




That certainly would make 1d12 weapons far more attractive...
– Michael W.
Nov 20 at 0:21










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No, this is not normal.



By the book, critical failures only (kind of) happen on death saving throws.



Even for DMs that use crit fails on attack rolls, they are usually only on the attack roll (the d20), not the damage roll (the d4 in your example).



Having a 25% chance of a crit fail on a dagger attack is completely ridiculous!






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    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago

















up vote
38
down vote













No it's not normal, and it's unfair to a lot of builds



Nothing in the rules calls for a critical fail on damage rolls, not even the DMG optional rule on critical failure.



Anything that rolls a lot of small dice for damage will be at a disadvantage. Beyond that, anything that isn't rolling as big a die as possible for damage is disadvantaged. This unfairness includes rogues, spells like Magic Missile, Fireball, or Cloud of Daggers, or basically anything other than a 2-handed weapon-focused character. A d4 damage die has 3 times as much chance to critically fail as a d12 using this rule.






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    up vote
    21
    down vote













    What? No. Stop that.



    A damage roll just gives you the numerical value for how many hit points a creature loses as result of a successful attack. There should be no narrative outcomes of this except things like, "they got a good scratch on the arm" or "they're limpy and coughing up blood now" to visualize how the creature's overall health is as a result of the attack. This is an incorrect use of the "critical failure" which is primarily designed as a worst-case-scenario on ability checks (when a character is doing something with risks and consequences).



    It really shouldn't even apply to simple tasks that a character would normally excel at (you shouldn't crit, nor even roll dice, to put on your boots).



    Critical failures are designed for when a character wants to sweet talk a guard into opening a protected door or swing from tree branch to tree branch like Tarzan. These actions have real consequences (both negative and positive) and so both a guaranteed success (20) and a guaranteed failure (1) are part of the game's chance systems. A d4 damage roll is not part of any chance system built into the game, other than how much damage is done (e.g. a little, some, or a lot)...plus, if a damage roll is taking place, the character has already succeeded in what they were trying to do! :)



    Oh, and all that said...there is no mention of critical failures in Fifth Edition.

    Critical hits yes, but as far as rules go, critical misses are not even mentioned in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide. I assume you are playing with the "house rule" of using critical failures as your DM has gone to an extreme, but the point of order discussed by others here is definitely worth noting as there are no official rules in 5e for critical failures.






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      up vote
      18
      down vote













      It's not normal. It also becomes increasingly more punishing at higher levels.



      The litmus test I've learned to use is the Kung-Fu Kraken / Straw Dummy test. It was originally developed for Pathfinder, but is more broadly applicable than just that system. The following is taken from my reading of the post, and the quotes are directly from the post.



      The actors we have in this example are:



      1. The Kung Fu Kraken (or in 5e, the action surging 20th level fighter or the machine gun Sorlock)

      2. Janet the Janitor, a first level commoner

      The two tests that are described are:



      1. Straw Dummy Test: If a character is fighting against an inanimate object for 10 minutes (100 rounds), how likely it is that they're injured? Without action surge / quicken spell, our KFK makes 4 attacks per round, for a total of 400 attacks. At a 10% rate of 1's (on a d10 for damage), they'll have rolled 1 about 40 times.


      The point of the straw dummy test is to measure how severe the consequences are for a fumble, when someone hits something that can't fight back for an extended period: if the warrior, after 10 minutes, is bleeding, dying, missing a limb or generally looking like they've lost a fight, then there's something wrong from a verisimilitude standpoint, and the fumble rule has failed the Straw Dummy test.




      1. Bad stuff should never happen to the Kung-Fu Kraken more often (on a per-round basis) than the Janitor. At 20th level, an action surging Fighter or a machine gun Sorlock makes 8 attacks. Janet makes a single attack per round. Janet, using a dagger, has a 25% chance of rolling a 1 on a given round. Using a d10 for the fighter / sorlock, they have a 1 - (0.9^8) = 57% chance of rolling a 1.





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      • I've never heard of this before. Cool stuff!
        – acbabis
        2 days ago










      • I came across it in a discussion of "critical fumble" houserules in 5e. I find it to be a great, easily understood example of why such rules suck, and it makes sense for 5e players even without understanding the occasional Pathfinder-specific terminology.
        – V2Blast
        yesterday

















      up vote
      12
      down vote













      No



      I'd possibly say a natural 1 on an Attack-roll might be a critical failure
      (e.g. You went to go skewer your opponent and accidentally let go of your weapon, so now you're unarmed and your weapon needs to be retrieved or re-roll an attack against another nearby target [possibly friendly] or something of that ilk, where you're now disadvantaged). I figure if there's a 5% chance of doubling damage, there's an equal 5% chance of royally flubbing it, and just to make things 'interesting'.



      However, Damage rolls are NEVER treated as failures (or critical failures). Of course, resistances and hardnesses could reduce damages to zero -- i.e. you hit the target, but, failed to cause damage.



      I'm not sure how/why a 1 on a damage roll would be a critical failure...I'm just trying to see/justify a rational how certain weapons would have a huge chance of failure and if so, does rolling a natural max die roll increase damage??
      Personally, I can't see ANY rationalization of this.






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      • 5




        I like the meat of your answer, but I would like if you made it more clear that the "critical failure" aspect is a house rule and that normal play has no such implication.
        – goodguy5
        Nov 19 at 18:04

















      up vote
      2
      down vote













      Nope, per RAW, a critical hit or critical fail can only occur on rolling a "20" or a "1" on the D20 specifically for attack rolls.



      You cannot roll a critical hit or fail on a D4-D12.



      This is a pretty bad rule, basically increases your chances significantly of rolling a critical failure, and also adds a crit fail possibility to spells that call for a saving throw.



      Definitely talk to the DM, if this is just a misunderstanding than easy fix, if he insists on keeping the rule, might need to look at finding a new game.






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      • 1




        And even then, a 1 on an attack roll isn't exactly a "critical fail". It's just a miss.
        – Pilchard123
        yesterday










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      6 Answers
      6






      active

      oldest

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      6 Answers
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      up vote
      128
      down vote













      No, this is not normal.



      By the book, critical failures only (kind of) happen on death saving throws.



      Even for DMs that use crit fails on attack rolls, they are usually only on the attack roll (the d20), not the damage roll (the d4 in your example).



      Having a 25% chance of a crit fail on a dagger attack is completely ridiculous!






      share|improve this answer






















      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – mxyzplk
        2 days ago














      up vote
      128
      down vote













      No, this is not normal.



      By the book, critical failures only (kind of) happen on death saving throws.



      Even for DMs that use crit fails on attack rolls, they are usually only on the attack roll (the d20), not the damage roll (the d4 in your example).



      Having a 25% chance of a crit fail on a dagger attack is completely ridiculous!






      share|improve this answer






















      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – mxyzplk
        2 days ago












      up vote
      128
      down vote










      up vote
      128
      down vote









      No, this is not normal.



      By the book, critical failures only (kind of) happen on death saving throws.



      Even for DMs that use crit fails on attack rolls, they are usually only on the attack roll (the d20), not the damage roll (the d4 in your example).



      Having a 25% chance of a crit fail on a dagger attack is completely ridiculous!






      share|improve this answer














      No, this is not normal.



      By the book, critical failures only (kind of) happen on death saving throws.



      Even for DMs that use crit fails on attack rolls, they are usually only on the attack roll (the d20), not the damage roll (the d4 in your example).



      Having a 25% chance of a crit fail on a dagger attack is completely ridiculous!







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited Nov 19 at 7:11

























      answered Nov 19 at 5:20









      Adeptus

      20.5k357104




      20.5k357104











      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – mxyzplk
        2 days ago
















      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – mxyzplk
        2 days ago















      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – mxyzplk
      2 days ago




      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – mxyzplk
      2 days ago












      up vote
      38
      down vote













      No it's not normal, and it's unfair to a lot of builds



      Nothing in the rules calls for a critical fail on damage rolls, not even the DMG optional rule on critical failure.



      Anything that rolls a lot of small dice for damage will be at a disadvantage. Beyond that, anything that isn't rolling as big a die as possible for damage is disadvantaged. This unfairness includes rogues, spells like Magic Missile, Fireball, or Cloud of Daggers, or basically anything other than a 2-handed weapon-focused character. A d4 damage die has 3 times as much chance to critically fail as a d12 using this rule.






      share|improve this answer


























        up vote
        38
        down vote













        No it's not normal, and it's unfair to a lot of builds



        Nothing in the rules calls for a critical fail on damage rolls, not even the DMG optional rule on critical failure.



        Anything that rolls a lot of small dice for damage will be at a disadvantage. Beyond that, anything that isn't rolling as big a die as possible for damage is disadvantaged. This unfairness includes rogues, spells like Magic Missile, Fireball, or Cloud of Daggers, or basically anything other than a 2-handed weapon-focused character. A d4 damage die has 3 times as much chance to critically fail as a d12 using this rule.






        share|improve this answer
























          up vote
          38
          down vote










          up vote
          38
          down vote









          No it's not normal, and it's unfair to a lot of builds



          Nothing in the rules calls for a critical fail on damage rolls, not even the DMG optional rule on critical failure.



          Anything that rolls a lot of small dice for damage will be at a disadvantage. Beyond that, anything that isn't rolling as big a die as possible for damage is disadvantaged. This unfairness includes rogues, spells like Magic Missile, Fireball, or Cloud of Daggers, or basically anything other than a 2-handed weapon-focused character. A d4 damage die has 3 times as much chance to critically fail as a d12 using this rule.






          share|improve this answer














          No it's not normal, and it's unfair to a lot of builds



          Nothing in the rules calls for a critical fail on damage rolls, not even the DMG optional rule on critical failure.



          Anything that rolls a lot of small dice for damage will be at a disadvantage. Beyond that, anything that isn't rolling as big a die as possible for damage is disadvantaged. This unfairness includes rogues, spells like Magic Missile, Fireball, or Cloud of Daggers, or basically anything other than a 2-handed weapon-focused character. A d4 damage die has 3 times as much chance to critically fail as a d12 using this rule.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited yesterday









          Tim Grant

          18.5k545109




          18.5k545109










          answered Nov 19 at 14:41









          Chris

          64726




          64726




















              up vote
              21
              down vote













              What? No. Stop that.



              A damage roll just gives you the numerical value for how many hit points a creature loses as result of a successful attack. There should be no narrative outcomes of this except things like, "they got a good scratch on the arm" or "they're limpy and coughing up blood now" to visualize how the creature's overall health is as a result of the attack. This is an incorrect use of the "critical failure" which is primarily designed as a worst-case-scenario on ability checks (when a character is doing something with risks and consequences).



              It really shouldn't even apply to simple tasks that a character would normally excel at (you shouldn't crit, nor even roll dice, to put on your boots).



              Critical failures are designed for when a character wants to sweet talk a guard into opening a protected door or swing from tree branch to tree branch like Tarzan. These actions have real consequences (both negative and positive) and so both a guaranteed success (20) and a guaranteed failure (1) are part of the game's chance systems. A d4 damage roll is not part of any chance system built into the game, other than how much damage is done (e.g. a little, some, or a lot)...plus, if a damage roll is taking place, the character has already succeeded in what they were trying to do! :)



              Oh, and all that said...there is no mention of critical failures in Fifth Edition.

              Critical hits yes, but as far as rules go, critical misses are not even mentioned in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide. I assume you are playing with the "house rule" of using critical failures as your DM has gone to an extreme, but the point of order discussed by others here is definitely worth noting as there are no official rules in 5e for critical failures.






              share|improve this answer










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              Justin Anderson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                up vote
                21
                down vote













                What? No. Stop that.



                A damage roll just gives you the numerical value for how many hit points a creature loses as result of a successful attack. There should be no narrative outcomes of this except things like, "they got a good scratch on the arm" or "they're limpy and coughing up blood now" to visualize how the creature's overall health is as a result of the attack. This is an incorrect use of the "critical failure" which is primarily designed as a worst-case-scenario on ability checks (when a character is doing something with risks and consequences).



                It really shouldn't even apply to simple tasks that a character would normally excel at (you shouldn't crit, nor even roll dice, to put on your boots).



                Critical failures are designed for when a character wants to sweet talk a guard into opening a protected door or swing from tree branch to tree branch like Tarzan. These actions have real consequences (both negative and positive) and so both a guaranteed success (20) and a guaranteed failure (1) are part of the game's chance systems. A d4 damage roll is not part of any chance system built into the game, other than how much damage is done (e.g. a little, some, or a lot)...plus, if a damage roll is taking place, the character has already succeeded in what they were trying to do! :)



                Oh, and all that said...there is no mention of critical failures in Fifth Edition.

                Critical hits yes, but as far as rules go, critical misses are not even mentioned in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide. I assume you are playing with the "house rule" of using critical failures as your DM has gone to an extreme, but the point of order discussed by others here is definitely worth noting as there are no official rules in 5e for critical failures.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Justin Anderson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  up vote
                  21
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  21
                  down vote









                  What? No. Stop that.



                  A damage roll just gives you the numerical value for how many hit points a creature loses as result of a successful attack. There should be no narrative outcomes of this except things like, "they got a good scratch on the arm" or "they're limpy and coughing up blood now" to visualize how the creature's overall health is as a result of the attack. This is an incorrect use of the "critical failure" which is primarily designed as a worst-case-scenario on ability checks (when a character is doing something with risks and consequences).



                  It really shouldn't even apply to simple tasks that a character would normally excel at (you shouldn't crit, nor even roll dice, to put on your boots).



                  Critical failures are designed for when a character wants to sweet talk a guard into opening a protected door or swing from tree branch to tree branch like Tarzan. These actions have real consequences (both negative and positive) and so both a guaranteed success (20) and a guaranteed failure (1) are part of the game's chance systems. A d4 damage roll is not part of any chance system built into the game, other than how much damage is done (e.g. a little, some, or a lot)...plus, if a damage roll is taking place, the character has already succeeded in what they were trying to do! :)



                  Oh, and all that said...there is no mention of critical failures in Fifth Edition.

                  Critical hits yes, but as far as rules go, critical misses are not even mentioned in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide. I assume you are playing with the "house rule" of using critical failures as your DM has gone to an extreme, but the point of order discussed by others here is definitely worth noting as there are no official rules in 5e for critical failures.






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                  What? No. Stop that.



                  A damage roll just gives you the numerical value for how many hit points a creature loses as result of a successful attack. There should be no narrative outcomes of this except things like, "they got a good scratch on the arm" or "they're limpy and coughing up blood now" to visualize how the creature's overall health is as a result of the attack. This is an incorrect use of the "critical failure" which is primarily designed as a worst-case-scenario on ability checks (when a character is doing something with risks and consequences).



                  It really shouldn't even apply to simple tasks that a character would normally excel at (you shouldn't crit, nor even roll dice, to put on your boots).



                  Critical failures are designed for when a character wants to sweet talk a guard into opening a protected door or swing from tree branch to tree branch like Tarzan. These actions have real consequences (both negative and positive) and so both a guaranteed success (20) and a guaranteed failure (1) are part of the game's chance systems. A d4 damage roll is not part of any chance system built into the game, other than how much damage is done (e.g. a little, some, or a lot)...plus, if a damage roll is taking place, the character has already succeeded in what they were trying to do! :)



                  Oh, and all that said...there is no mention of critical failures in Fifth Edition.

                  Critical hits yes, but as far as rules go, critical misses are not even mentioned in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide. I assume you are playing with the "house rule" of using critical failures as your DM has gone to an extreme, but the point of order discussed by others here is definitely worth noting as there are no official rules in 5e for critical failures.







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                  edited 2 days ago









                  KorvinStarmast

                  71.3k17224392




                  71.3k17224392






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                  answered Nov 19 at 19:58









                  Justin Anderson

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                      up vote
                      18
                      down vote













                      It's not normal. It also becomes increasingly more punishing at higher levels.



                      The litmus test I've learned to use is the Kung-Fu Kraken / Straw Dummy test. It was originally developed for Pathfinder, but is more broadly applicable than just that system. The following is taken from my reading of the post, and the quotes are directly from the post.



                      The actors we have in this example are:



                      1. The Kung Fu Kraken (or in 5e, the action surging 20th level fighter or the machine gun Sorlock)

                      2. Janet the Janitor, a first level commoner

                      The two tests that are described are:



                      1. Straw Dummy Test: If a character is fighting against an inanimate object for 10 minutes (100 rounds), how likely it is that they're injured? Without action surge / quicken spell, our KFK makes 4 attacks per round, for a total of 400 attacks. At a 10% rate of 1's (on a d10 for damage), they'll have rolled 1 about 40 times.


                      The point of the straw dummy test is to measure how severe the consequences are for a fumble, when someone hits something that can't fight back for an extended period: if the warrior, after 10 minutes, is bleeding, dying, missing a limb or generally looking like they've lost a fight, then there's something wrong from a verisimilitude standpoint, and the fumble rule has failed the Straw Dummy test.




                      1. Bad stuff should never happen to the Kung-Fu Kraken more often (on a per-round basis) than the Janitor. At 20th level, an action surging Fighter or a machine gun Sorlock makes 8 attacks. Janet makes a single attack per round. Janet, using a dagger, has a 25% chance of rolling a 1 on a given round. Using a d10 for the fighter / sorlock, they have a 1 - (0.9^8) = 57% chance of rolling a 1.





                      share|improve this answer










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                      • I've never heard of this before. Cool stuff!
                        – acbabis
                        2 days ago










                      • I came across it in a discussion of "critical fumble" houserules in 5e. I find it to be a great, easily understood example of why such rules suck, and it makes sense for 5e players even without understanding the occasional Pathfinder-specific terminology.
                        – V2Blast
                        yesterday














                      up vote
                      18
                      down vote













                      It's not normal. It also becomes increasingly more punishing at higher levels.



                      The litmus test I've learned to use is the Kung-Fu Kraken / Straw Dummy test. It was originally developed for Pathfinder, but is more broadly applicable than just that system. The following is taken from my reading of the post, and the quotes are directly from the post.



                      The actors we have in this example are:



                      1. The Kung Fu Kraken (or in 5e, the action surging 20th level fighter or the machine gun Sorlock)

                      2. Janet the Janitor, a first level commoner

                      The two tests that are described are:



                      1. Straw Dummy Test: If a character is fighting against an inanimate object for 10 minutes (100 rounds), how likely it is that they're injured? Without action surge / quicken spell, our KFK makes 4 attacks per round, for a total of 400 attacks. At a 10% rate of 1's (on a d10 for damage), they'll have rolled 1 about 40 times.


                      The point of the straw dummy test is to measure how severe the consequences are for a fumble, when someone hits something that can't fight back for an extended period: if the warrior, after 10 minutes, is bleeding, dying, missing a limb or generally looking like they've lost a fight, then there's something wrong from a verisimilitude standpoint, and the fumble rule has failed the Straw Dummy test.




                      1. Bad stuff should never happen to the Kung-Fu Kraken more often (on a per-round basis) than the Janitor. At 20th level, an action surging Fighter or a machine gun Sorlock makes 8 attacks. Janet makes a single attack per round. Janet, using a dagger, has a 25% chance of rolling a 1 on a given round. Using a d10 for the fighter / sorlock, they have a 1 - (0.9^8) = 57% chance of rolling a 1.





                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




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                      Check out our Code of Conduct.

















                      • I've never heard of this before. Cool stuff!
                        – acbabis
                        2 days ago










                      • I came across it in a discussion of "critical fumble" houserules in 5e. I find it to be a great, easily understood example of why such rules suck, and it makes sense for 5e players even without understanding the occasional Pathfinder-specific terminology.
                        – V2Blast
                        yesterday












                      up vote
                      18
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      18
                      down vote









                      It's not normal. It also becomes increasingly more punishing at higher levels.



                      The litmus test I've learned to use is the Kung-Fu Kraken / Straw Dummy test. It was originally developed for Pathfinder, but is more broadly applicable than just that system. The following is taken from my reading of the post, and the quotes are directly from the post.



                      The actors we have in this example are:



                      1. The Kung Fu Kraken (or in 5e, the action surging 20th level fighter or the machine gun Sorlock)

                      2. Janet the Janitor, a first level commoner

                      The two tests that are described are:



                      1. Straw Dummy Test: If a character is fighting against an inanimate object for 10 minutes (100 rounds), how likely it is that they're injured? Without action surge / quicken spell, our KFK makes 4 attacks per round, for a total of 400 attacks. At a 10% rate of 1's (on a d10 for damage), they'll have rolled 1 about 40 times.


                      The point of the straw dummy test is to measure how severe the consequences are for a fumble, when someone hits something that can't fight back for an extended period: if the warrior, after 10 minutes, is bleeding, dying, missing a limb or generally looking like they've lost a fight, then there's something wrong from a verisimilitude standpoint, and the fumble rule has failed the Straw Dummy test.




                      1. Bad stuff should never happen to the Kung-Fu Kraken more often (on a per-round basis) than the Janitor. At 20th level, an action surging Fighter or a machine gun Sorlock makes 8 attacks. Janet makes a single attack per round. Janet, using a dagger, has a 25% chance of rolling a 1 on a given round. Using a d10 for the fighter / sorlock, they have a 1 - (0.9^8) = 57% chance of rolling a 1.





                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      Snakes and Coffee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      It's not normal. It also becomes increasingly more punishing at higher levels.



                      The litmus test I've learned to use is the Kung-Fu Kraken / Straw Dummy test. It was originally developed for Pathfinder, but is more broadly applicable than just that system. The following is taken from my reading of the post, and the quotes are directly from the post.



                      The actors we have in this example are:



                      1. The Kung Fu Kraken (or in 5e, the action surging 20th level fighter or the machine gun Sorlock)

                      2. Janet the Janitor, a first level commoner

                      The two tests that are described are:



                      1. Straw Dummy Test: If a character is fighting against an inanimate object for 10 minutes (100 rounds), how likely it is that they're injured? Without action surge / quicken spell, our KFK makes 4 attacks per round, for a total of 400 attacks. At a 10% rate of 1's (on a d10 for damage), they'll have rolled 1 about 40 times.


                      The point of the straw dummy test is to measure how severe the consequences are for a fumble, when someone hits something that can't fight back for an extended period: if the warrior, after 10 minutes, is bleeding, dying, missing a limb or generally looking like they've lost a fight, then there's something wrong from a verisimilitude standpoint, and the fumble rule has failed the Straw Dummy test.




                      1. Bad stuff should never happen to the Kung-Fu Kraken more often (on a per-round basis) than the Janitor. At 20th level, an action surging Fighter or a machine gun Sorlock makes 8 attacks. Janet makes a single attack per round. Janet, using a dagger, has a 25% chance of rolling a 1 on a given round. Using a d10 for the fighter / sorlock, they have a 1 - (0.9^8) = 57% chance of rolling a 1.






                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      Snakes and Coffee is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited yesterday









                      V2Blast

                      18.1k248114




                      18.1k248114






                      New contributor




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                      answered 2 days ago









                      Snakes and Coffee

                      2813




                      2813




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                      New contributor





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                      Check out our Code of Conduct.











                      • I've never heard of this before. Cool stuff!
                        – acbabis
                        2 days ago










                      • I came across it in a discussion of "critical fumble" houserules in 5e. I find it to be a great, easily understood example of why such rules suck, and it makes sense for 5e players even without understanding the occasional Pathfinder-specific terminology.
                        – V2Blast
                        yesterday
















                      • I've never heard of this before. Cool stuff!
                        – acbabis
                        2 days ago










                      • I came across it in a discussion of "critical fumble" houserules in 5e. I find it to be a great, easily understood example of why such rules suck, and it makes sense for 5e players even without understanding the occasional Pathfinder-specific terminology.
                        – V2Blast
                        yesterday















                      I've never heard of this before. Cool stuff!
                      – acbabis
                      2 days ago




                      I've never heard of this before. Cool stuff!
                      – acbabis
                      2 days ago












                      I came across it in a discussion of "critical fumble" houserules in 5e. I find it to be a great, easily understood example of why such rules suck, and it makes sense for 5e players even without understanding the occasional Pathfinder-specific terminology.
                      – V2Blast
                      yesterday




                      I came across it in a discussion of "critical fumble" houserules in 5e. I find it to be a great, easily understood example of why such rules suck, and it makes sense for 5e players even without understanding the occasional Pathfinder-specific terminology.
                      – V2Blast
                      yesterday










                      up vote
                      12
                      down vote













                      No



                      I'd possibly say a natural 1 on an Attack-roll might be a critical failure
                      (e.g. You went to go skewer your opponent and accidentally let go of your weapon, so now you're unarmed and your weapon needs to be retrieved or re-roll an attack against another nearby target [possibly friendly] or something of that ilk, where you're now disadvantaged). I figure if there's a 5% chance of doubling damage, there's an equal 5% chance of royally flubbing it, and just to make things 'interesting'.



                      However, Damage rolls are NEVER treated as failures (or critical failures). Of course, resistances and hardnesses could reduce damages to zero -- i.e. you hit the target, but, failed to cause damage.



                      I'm not sure how/why a 1 on a damage roll would be a critical failure...I'm just trying to see/justify a rational how certain weapons would have a huge chance of failure and if so, does rolling a natural max die roll increase damage??
                      Personally, I can't see ANY rationalization of this.






                      share|improve this answer


















                      • 5




                        I like the meat of your answer, but I would like if you made it more clear that the "critical failure" aspect is a house rule and that normal play has no such implication.
                        – goodguy5
                        Nov 19 at 18:04














                      up vote
                      12
                      down vote













                      No



                      I'd possibly say a natural 1 on an Attack-roll might be a critical failure
                      (e.g. You went to go skewer your opponent and accidentally let go of your weapon, so now you're unarmed and your weapon needs to be retrieved or re-roll an attack against another nearby target [possibly friendly] or something of that ilk, where you're now disadvantaged). I figure if there's a 5% chance of doubling damage, there's an equal 5% chance of royally flubbing it, and just to make things 'interesting'.



                      However, Damage rolls are NEVER treated as failures (or critical failures). Of course, resistances and hardnesses could reduce damages to zero -- i.e. you hit the target, but, failed to cause damage.



                      I'm not sure how/why a 1 on a damage roll would be a critical failure...I'm just trying to see/justify a rational how certain weapons would have a huge chance of failure and if so, does rolling a natural max die roll increase damage??
                      Personally, I can't see ANY rationalization of this.






                      share|improve this answer


















                      • 5




                        I like the meat of your answer, but I would like if you made it more clear that the "critical failure" aspect is a house rule and that normal play has no such implication.
                        – goodguy5
                        Nov 19 at 18:04












                      up vote
                      12
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      12
                      down vote









                      No



                      I'd possibly say a natural 1 on an Attack-roll might be a critical failure
                      (e.g. You went to go skewer your opponent and accidentally let go of your weapon, so now you're unarmed and your weapon needs to be retrieved or re-roll an attack against another nearby target [possibly friendly] or something of that ilk, where you're now disadvantaged). I figure if there's a 5% chance of doubling damage, there's an equal 5% chance of royally flubbing it, and just to make things 'interesting'.



                      However, Damage rolls are NEVER treated as failures (or critical failures). Of course, resistances and hardnesses could reduce damages to zero -- i.e. you hit the target, but, failed to cause damage.



                      I'm not sure how/why a 1 on a damage roll would be a critical failure...I'm just trying to see/justify a rational how certain weapons would have a huge chance of failure and if so, does rolling a natural max die roll increase damage??
                      Personally, I can't see ANY rationalization of this.






                      share|improve this answer














                      No



                      I'd possibly say a natural 1 on an Attack-roll might be a critical failure
                      (e.g. You went to go skewer your opponent and accidentally let go of your weapon, so now you're unarmed and your weapon needs to be retrieved or re-roll an attack against another nearby target [possibly friendly] or something of that ilk, where you're now disadvantaged). I figure if there's a 5% chance of doubling damage, there's an equal 5% chance of royally flubbing it, and just to make things 'interesting'.



                      However, Damage rolls are NEVER treated as failures (or critical failures). Of course, resistances and hardnesses could reduce damages to zero -- i.e. you hit the target, but, failed to cause damage.



                      I'm not sure how/why a 1 on a damage roll would be a critical failure...I'm just trying to see/justify a rational how certain weapons would have a huge chance of failure and if so, does rolling a natural max die roll increase damage??
                      Personally, I can't see ANY rationalization of this.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Nov 19 at 17:11









                      Rubiksmoose

                      43.7k6219335




                      43.7k6219335










                      answered Nov 19 at 16:40









                      David Fass

                      48127




                      48127







                      • 5




                        I like the meat of your answer, but I would like if you made it more clear that the "critical failure" aspect is a house rule and that normal play has no such implication.
                        – goodguy5
                        Nov 19 at 18:04












                      • 5




                        I like the meat of your answer, but I would like if you made it more clear that the "critical failure" aspect is a house rule and that normal play has no such implication.
                        – goodguy5
                        Nov 19 at 18:04







                      5




                      5




                      I like the meat of your answer, but I would like if you made it more clear that the "critical failure" aspect is a house rule and that normal play has no such implication.
                      – goodguy5
                      Nov 19 at 18:04




                      I like the meat of your answer, but I would like if you made it more clear that the "critical failure" aspect is a house rule and that normal play has no such implication.
                      – goodguy5
                      Nov 19 at 18:04










                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote













                      Nope, per RAW, a critical hit or critical fail can only occur on rolling a "20" or a "1" on the D20 specifically for attack rolls.



                      You cannot roll a critical hit or fail on a D4-D12.



                      This is a pretty bad rule, basically increases your chances significantly of rolling a critical failure, and also adds a crit fail possibility to spells that call for a saving throw.



                      Definitely talk to the DM, if this is just a misunderstanding than easy fix, if he insists on keeping the rule, might need to look at finding a new game.






                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




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                      • 1




                        And even then, a 1 on an attack roll isn't exactly a "critical fail". It's just a miss.
                        – Pilchard123
                        yesterday














                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote













                      Nope, per RAW, a critical hit or critical fail can only occur on rolling a "20" or a "1" on the D20 specifically for attack rolls.



                      You cannot roll a critical hit or fail on a D4-D12.



                      This is a pretty bad rule, basically increases your chances significantly of rolling a critical failure, and also adds a crit fail possibility to spells that call for a saving throw.



                      Definitely talk to the DM, if this is just a misunderstanding than easy fix, if he insists on keeping the rule, might need to look at finding a new game.






                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Josh Harness is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.













                      • 1




                        And even then, a 1 on an attack roll isn't exactly a "critical fail". It's just a miss.
                        – Pilchard123
                        yesterday












                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote









                      Nope, per RAW, a critical hit or critical fail can only occur on rolling a "20" or a "1" on the D20 specifically for attack rolls.



                      You cannot roll a critical hit or fail on a D4-D12.



                      This is a pretty bad rule, basically increases your chances significantly of rolling a critical failure, and also adds a crit fail possibility to spells that call for a saving throw.



                      Definitely talk to the DM, if this is just a misunderstanding than easy fix, if he insists on keeping the rule, might need to look at finding a new game.






                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Josh Harness is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      Nope, per RAW, a critical hit or critical fail can only occur on rolling a "20" or a "1" on the D20 specifically for attack rolls.



                      You cannot roll a critical hit or fail on a D4-D12.



                      This is a pretty bad rule, basically increases your chances significantly of rolling a critical failure, and also adds a crit fail possibility to spells that call for a saving throw.



                      Definitely talk to the DM, if this is just a misunderstanding than easy fix, if he insists on keeping the rule, might need to look at finding a new game.







                      share|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Josh Harness is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer






                      New contributor




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                      answered yesterday









                      Josh Harness

                      211




                      211




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                      New contributor





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                      Josh Harness is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.







                      • 1




                        And even then, a 1 on an attack roll isn't exactly a "critical fail". It's just a miss.
                        – Pilchard123
                        yesterday












                      • 1




                        And even then, a 1 on an attack roll isn't exactly a "critical fail". It's just a miss.
                        – Pilchard123
                        yesterday







                      1




                      1




                      And even then, a 1 on an attack roll isn't exactly a "critical fail". It's just a miss.
                      – Pilchard123
                      yesterday




                      And even then, a 1 on an attack roll isn't exactly a "critical fail". It's just a miss.
                      – Pilchard123
                      yesterday










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