Scottish, English, why not *Walish?
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As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
favorite
As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
4
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
â Ian MacDonald
8 hours ago
@ianmacdonald in which case I'd expect to see "Englandish".
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
4
Would you? Your proposition was "Walish". When changing England to English or Scotland to Scottish, the "land" bit is converted to a form of "ish". Hence my suggestion that it would need to be "Walland" to end up as "Walish".
â Ian MacDonald
5 hours ago
@ian good point, don't know what I was thinking. I retract.
â Matt Gutting
56 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
favorite
up vote
9
down vote
favorite
As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
etymology vowels old-english
edited 8 hours ago
asked 9 hours ago
Matt Gutting
5,6442235
5,6442235
4
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
â Ian MacDonald
8 hours ago
@ianmacdonald in which case I'd expect to see "Englandish".
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
4
Would you? Your proposition was "Walish". When changing England to English or Scotland to Scottish, the "land" bit is converted to a form of "ish". Hence my suggestion that it would need to be "Walland" to end up as "Walish".
â Ian MacDonald
5 hours ago
@ian good point, don't know what I was thinking. I retract.
â Matt Gutting
56 mins ago
add a comment |Â
4
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
â Ian MacDonald
8 hours ago
@ianmacdonald in which case I'd expect to see "Englandish".
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
4
Would you? Your proposition was "Walish". When changing England to English or Scotland to Scottish, the "land" bit is converted to a form of "ish". Hence my suggestion that it would need to be "Walland" to end up as "Walish".
â Ian MacDonald
5 hours ago
@ian good point, don't know what I was thinking. I retract.
â Matt Gutting
56 mins ago
4
4
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
â Ian MacDonald
8 hours ago
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
â Ian MacDonald
8 hours ago
@ianmacdonald in which case I'd expect to see "Englandish".
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
@ianmacdonald in which case I'd expect to see "Englandish".
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
4
4
Would you? Your proposition was "Walish". When changing England to English or Scotland to Scottish, the "land" bit is converted to a form of "ish". Hence my suggestion that it would need to be "Walland" to end up as "Walish".
â Ian MacDonald
5 hours ago
Would you? Your proposition was "Walish". When changing England to English or Scotland to Scottish, the "land" bit is converted to a form of "ish". Hence my suggestion that it would need to be "Walland" to end up as "Walish".
â Ian MacDonald
5 hours ago
@ian good point, don't know what I was thinking. I retract.
â Matt Gutting
56 mins ago
@ian good point, don't know what I was thinking. I retract.
â Matt Gutting
56 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
Note that Scottish has the contracted form âÂÂScotchâ (also âÂÂScotsâÂÂ, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of âÂÂEnglishâ inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted formsâÂÂâÂÂEnglshâ is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
Vowel
As far as I know, there is not a general rule converting Old English short æ to Middle English e. The general rule that I have seen given in linguistic sources is that Old English short æ corresponds to Middle English a. But there are complications.
The "Welsh" word had various vowel qualities in Old English; the form "wælisc" is only a standardized representation of one form. "West Saxon" is the dialect that is most commonly used as the standardized representation of "Old English" (e.g. in dictionary references to OE words), but it isn't the only dialect that contributed to modern English.
The number and distribution of "a-like" vowels differed between different dialects of Old English; I don't know enough about this topic to summarize it, but the OED entry for the word Welsh gives the following information:
it classifies the forms into three main groups:
ñ. those like "OE Wilis-" (with i, y or u after the w)
ò. those like "eOE Uuelesc (Kentish)" (with e after the w)
ó. those like "OEâÂÂeME Wælisc" and "MEâÂÂ15 Walshe" (among others) (with æ or a after the w)Also a minor "ô." group with the vowel "o".
in its "form history" section, there is extensive discussion of the history, including the following paragraph:
Some of the ò. forms represent the Kentish reflex of early Old English æ with regular breaking to ea and i-mutation to e, and this is probably continued in south-eastern Middle English forms. However, the majority of the ò. forms represent the Anglian reflex of æ with retraction to a before l plus consonant (compare the corresponding noun, Anglian Walh ), i-mutation of a to æ, and subsequent late Old English raising of this vowel to e in the east midlands and the north (compare A. Campbell Old Eng. Gram. (1959) ç193(a), R. Jordan Handb. der mittelenglischen Grammatik (ed. 2, 1934) ç62). The ó. forms show the expected reflex of the Anglian retracted and mutated vowel in the west midlands (Middle English a), but appear to be unusually widely distributed in Middle English. Although they become obsolete by the end of the 16th cent., Walsh survives as a form of the surname.
I think it's worth making another post specifically for the question about correspondences between OE "æ" and Middle or Modern English "e"--it seems to be a big, complicated topic, and I think making it a post of its own might attract more expert attention! I'm sure that there are other comparable examples; I'll try to find them when I have some time later.
An earlier question that seems relevant is Why "English" but not "Anglish"?, although unfortunately it doesn't seem to have gotten any answers from experts.
And the vowel quality change after w?
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
1
The correspondence between the front vowels from OE to ME is indeed very complex â so complex, in fact, that I think itâÂÂs too broad to fit into a question or answer here. As far as I know, itâÂÂs not even fully understood. In Welsh, however, the main takeaway is that the i in the eOE forms regularly caused i-mutation of the preceding a/ea to æ, which was later raised to e by a semi-regular sound change that occurred in some areas. The resulting form, *Welish eventually lost its second syllable, and Welsh ended up being the form that became the standard.
â Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German â Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
â FumbleFingers
9 hours ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
â Robusto
9 hours ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
@Matt: The OE "ash" (æ) was pronounced like the a in hat and the sc digraph was pronounced like the current sh digraph. As is true today, there was a lot of latitude in the pronunciation of vowel sounds, though, so any "wæ" sound could be rendered in a variety of ways.
â Robusto
8 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
Note that Scottish has the contracted form âÂÂScotchâ (also âÂÂScotsâÂÂ, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of âÂÂEnglishâ inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted formsâÂÂâÂÂEnglshâ is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
Vowel
As far as I know, there is not a general rule converting Old English short æ to Middle English e. The general rule that I have seen given in linguistic sources is that Old English short æ corresponds to Middle English a. But there are complications.
The "Welsh" word had various vowel qualities in Old English; the form "wælisc" is only a standardized representation of one form. "West Saxon" is the dialect that is most commonly used as the standardized representation of "Old English" (e.g. in dictionary references to OE words), but it isn't the only dialect that contributed to modern English.
The number and distribution of "a-like" vowels differed between different dialects of Old English; I don't know enough about this topic to summarize it, but the OED entry for the word Welsh gives the following information:
it classifies the forms into three main groups:
ñ. those like "OE Wilis-" (with i, y or u after the w)
ò. those like "eOE Uuelesc (Kentish)" (with e after the w)
ó. those like "OEâÂÂeME Wælisc" and "MEâÂÂ15 Walshe" (among others) (with æ or a after the w)Also a minor "ô." group with the vowel "o".
in its "form history" section, there is extensive discussion of the history, including the following paragraph:
Some of the ò. forms represent the Kentish reflex of early Old English æ with regular breaking to ea and i-mutation to e, and this is probably continued in south-eastern Middle English forms. However, the majority of the ò. forms represent the Anglian reflex of æ with retraction to a before l plus consonant (compare the corresponding noun, Anglian Walh ), i-mutation of a to æ, and subsequent late Old English raising of this vowel to e in the east midlands and the north (compare A. Campbell Old Eng. Gram. (1959) ç193(a), R. Jordan Handb. der mittelenglischen Grammatik (ed. 2, 1934) ç62). The ó. forms show the expected reflex of the Anglian retracted and mutated vowel in the west midlands (Middle English a), but appear to be unusually widely distributed in Middle English. Although they become obsolete by the end of the 16th cent., Walsh survives as a form of the surname.
I think it's worth making another post specifically for the question about correspondences between OE "æ" and Middle or Modern English "e"--it seems to be a big, complicated topic, and I think making it a post of its own might attract more expert attention! I'm sure that there are other comparable examples; I'll try to find them when I have some time later.
An earlier question that seems relevant is Why "English" but not "Anglish"?, although unfortunately it doesn't seem to have gotten any answers from experts.
And the vowel quality change after w?
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
1
The correspondence between the front vowels from OE to ME is indeed very complex â so complex, in fact, that I think itâÂÂs too broad to fit into a question or answer here. As far as I know, itâÂÂs not even fully understood. In Welsh, however, the main takeaway is that the i in the eOE forms regularly caused i-mutation of the preceding a/ea to æ, which was later raised to e by a semi-regular sound change that occurred in some areas. The resulting form, *Welish eventually lost its second syllable, and Welsh ended up being the form that became the standard.
â Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
Note that Scottish has the contracted form âÂÂScotchâ (also âÂÂScotsâÂÂ, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of âÂÂEnglishâ inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted formsâÂÂâÂÂEnglshâ is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
Vowel
As far as I know, there is not a general rule converting Old English short æ to Middle English e. The general rule that I have seen given in linguistic sources is that Old English short æ corresponds to Middle English a. But there are complications.
The "Welsh" word had various vowel qualities in Old English; the form "wælisc" is only a standardized representation of one form. "West Saxon" is the dialect that is most commonly used as the standardized representation of "Old English" (e.g. in dictionary references to OE words), but it isn't the only dialect that contributed to modern English.
The number and distribution of "a-like" vowels differed between different dialects of Old English; I don't know enough about this topic to summarize it, but the OED entry for the word Welsh gives the following information:
it classifies the forms into three main groups:
ñ. those like "OE Wilis-" (with i, y or u after the w)
ò. those like "eOE Uuelesc (Kentish)" (with e after the w)
ó. those like "OEâÂÂeME Wælisc" and "MEâÂÂ15 Walshe" (among others) (with æ or a after the w)Also a minor "ô." group with the vowel "o".
in its "form history" section, there is extensive discussion of the history, including the following paragraph:
Some of the ò. forms represent the Kentish reflex of early Old English æ with regular breaking to ea and i-mutation to e, and this is probably continued in south-eastern Middle English forms. However, the majority of the ò. forms represent the Anglian reflex of æ with retraction to a before l plus consonant (compare the corresponding noun, Anglian Walh ), i-mutation of a to æ, and subsequent late Old English raising of this vowel to e in the east midlands and the north (compare A. Campbell Old Eng. Gram. (1959) ç193(a), R. Jordan Handb. der mittelenglischen Grammatik (ed. 2, 1934) ç62). The ó. forms show the expected reflex of the Anglian retracted and mutated vowel in the west midlands (Middle English a), but appear to be unusually widely distributed in Middle English. Although they become obsolete by the end of the 16th cent., Walsh survives as a form of the surname.
I think it's worth making another post specifically for the question about correspondences between OE "æ" and Middle or Modern English "e"--it seems to be a big, complicated topic, and I think making it a post of its own might attract more expert attention! I'm sure that there are other comparable examples; I'll try to find them when I have some time later.
An earlier question that seems relevant is Why "English" but not "Anglish"?, although unfortunately it doesn't seem to have gotten any answers from experts.
And the vowel quality change after w?
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
1
The correspondence between the front vowels from OE to ME is indeed very complex â so complex, in fact, that I think itâÂÂs too broad to fit into a question or answer here. As far as I know, itâÂÂs not even fully understood. In Welsh, however, the main takeaway is that the i in the eOE forms regularly caused i-mutation of the preceding a/ea to æ, which was later raised to e by a semi-regular sound change that occurred in some areas. The resulting form, *Welish eventually lost its second syllable, and Welsh ended up being the form that became the standard.
â Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
Note that Scottish has the contracted form âÂÂScotchâ (also âÂÂScotsâÂÂ, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of âÂÂEnglishâ inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted formsâÂÂâÂÂEnglshâ is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
Vowel
As far as I know, there is not a general rule converting Old English short æ to Middle English e. The general rule that I have seen given in linguistic sources is that Old English short æ corresponds to Middle English a. But there are complications.
The "Welsh" word had various vowel qualities in Old English; the form "wælisc" is only a standardized representation of one form. "West Saxon" is the dialect that is most commonly used as the standardized representation of "Old English" (e.g. in dictionary references to OE words), but it isn't the only dialect that contributed to modern English.
The number and distribution of "a-like" vowels differed between different dialects of Old English; I don't know enough about this topic to summarize it, but the OED entry for the word Welsh gives the following information:
it classifies the forms into three main groups:
ñ. those like "OE Wilis-" (with i, y or u after the w)
ò. those like "eOE Uuelesc (Kentish)" (with e after the w)
ó. those like "OEâÂÂeME Wælisc" and "MEâÂÂ15 Walshe" (among others) (with æ or a after the w)Also a minor "ô." group with the vowel "o".
in its "form history" section, there is extensive discussion of the history, including the following paragraph:
Some of the ò. forms represent the Kentish reflex of early Old English æ with regular breaking to ea and i-mutation to e, and this is probably continued in south-eastern Middle English forms. However, the majority of the ò. forms represent the Anglian reflex of æ with retraction to a before l plus consonant (compare the corresponding noun, Anglian Walh ), i-mutation of a to æ, and subsequent late Old English raising of this vowel to e in the east midlands and the north (compare A. Campbell Old Eng. Gram. (1959) ç193(a), R. Jordan Handb. der mittelenglischen Grammatik (ed. 2, 1934) ç62). The ó. forms show the expected reflex of the Anglian retracted and mutated vowel in the west midlands (Middle English a), but appear to be unusually widely distributed in Middle English. Although they become obsolete by the end of the 16th cent., Walsh survives as a form of the surname.
I think it's worth making another post specifically for the question about correspondences between OE "æ" and Middle or Modern English "e"--it seems to be a big, complicated topic, and I think making it a post of its own might attract more expert attention! I'm sure that there are other comparable examples; I'll try to find them when I have some time later.
An earlier question that seems relevant is Why "English" but not "Anglish"?, although unfortunately it doesn't seem to have gotten any answers from experts.
Note that Scottish has the contracted form âÂÂScotchâ (also âÂÂScotsâÂÂ, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of âÂÂEnglishâ inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted formsâÂÂâÂÂEnglshâ is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
Vowel
As far as I know, there is not a general rule converting Old English short æ to Middle English e. The general rule that I have seen given in linguistic sources is that Old English short æ corresponds to Middle English a. But there are complications.
The "Welsh" word had various vowel qualities in Old English; the form "wælisc" is only a standardized representation of one form. "West Saxon" is the dialect that is most commonly used as the standardized representation of "Old English" (e.g. in dictionary references to OE words), but it isn't the only dialect that contributed to modern English.
The number and distribution of "a-like" vowels differed between different dialects of Old English; I don't know enough about this topic to summarize it, but the OED entry for the word Welsh gives the following information:
it classifies the forms into three main groups:
ñ. those like "OE Wilis-" (with i, y or u after the w)
ò. those like "eOE Uuelesc (Kentish)" (with e after the w)
ó. those like "OEâÂÂeME Wælisc" and "MEâÂÂ15 Walshe" (among others) (with æ or a after the w)Also a minor "ô." group with the vowel "o".
in its "form history" section, there is extensive discussion of the history, including the following paragraph:
Some of the ò. forms represent the Kentish reflex of early Old English æ with regular breaking to ea and i-mutation to e, and this is probably continued in south-eastern Middle English forms. However, the majority of the ò. forms represent the Anglian reflex of æ with retraction to a before l plus consonant (compare the corresponding noun, Anglian Walh ), i-mutation of a to æ, and subsequent late Old English raising of this vowel to e in the east midlands and the north (compare A. Campbell Old Eng. Gram. (1959) ç193(a), R. Jordan Handb. der mittelenglischen Grammatik (ed. 2, 1934) ç62). The ó. forms show the expected reflex of the Anglian retracted and mutated vowel in the west midlands (Middle English a), but appear to be unusually widely distributed in Middle English. Although they become obsolete by the end of the 16th cent., Walsh survives as a form of the surname.
I think it's worth making another post specifically for the question about correspondences between OE "æ" and Middle or Modern English "e"--it seems to be a big, complicated topic, and I think making it a post of its own might attract more expert attention! I'm sure that there are other comparable examples; I'll try to find them when I have some time later.
An earlier question that seems relevant is Why "English" but not "Anglish"?, although unfortunately it doesn't seem to have gotten any answers from experts.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
sumelic
43.3k6102203
43.3k6102203
And the vowel quality change after w?
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
1
The correspondence between the front vowels from OE to ME is indeed very complex â so complex, in fact, that I think itâÂÂs too broad to fit into a question or answer here. As far as I know, itâÂÂs not even fully understood. In Welsh, however, the main takeaway is that the i in the eOE forms regularly caused i-mutation of the preceding a/ea to æ, which was later raised to e by a semi-regular sound change that occurred in some areas. The resulting form, *Welish eventually lost its second syllable, and Welsh ended up being the form that became the standard.
â Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago
add a comment |Â
And the vowel quality change after w?
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
1
The correspondence between the front vowels from OE to ME is indeed very complex â so complex, in fact, that I think itâÂÂs too broad to fit into a question or answer here. As far as I know, itâÂÂs not even fully understood. In Welsh, however, the main takeaway is that the i in the eOE forms regularly caused i-mutation of the preceding a/ea to æ, which was later raised to e by a semi-regular sound change that occurred in some areas. The resulting form, *Welish eventually lost its second syllable, and Welsh ended up being the form that became the standard.
â Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago
And the vowel quality change after w?
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
And the vowel quality change after w?
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
1
1
The correspondence between the front vowels from OE to ME is indeed very complex â so complex, in fact, that I think itâÂÂs too broad to fit into a question or answer here. As far as I know, itâÂÂs not even fully understood. In Welsh, however, the main takeaway is that the i in the eOE forms regularly caused i-mutation of the preceding a/ea to æ, which was later raised to e by a semi-regular sound change that occurred in some areas. The resulting form, *Welish eventually lost its second syllable, and Welsh ended up being the form that became the standard.
â Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago
The correspondence between the front vowels from OE to ME is indeed very complex â so complex, in fact, that I think itâÂÂs too broad to fit into a question or answer here. As far as I know, itâÂÂs not even fully understood. In Welsh, however, the main takeaway is that the i in the eOE forms regularly caused i-mutation of the preceding a/ea to æ, which was later raised to e by a semi-regular sound change that occurred in some areas. The resulting form, *Welish eventually lost its second syllable, and Welsh ended up being the form that became the standard.
â Janus Bahs Jacquet
7 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German â Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
â FumbleFingers
9 hours ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
â Robusto
9 hours ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
@Matt: The OE "ash" (æ) was pronounced like the a in hat and the sc digraph was pronounced like the current sh digraph. As is true today, there was a lot of latitude in the pronunciation of vowel sounds, though, so any "wæ" sound could be rendered in a variety of ways.
â Robusto
8 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German â Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
â FumbleFingers
9 hours ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
â Robusto
9 hours ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
@Matt: The OE "ash" (æ) was pronounced like the a in hat and the sc digraph was pronounced like the current sh digraph. As is true today, there was a lot of latitude in the pronunciation of vowel sounds, though, so any "wæ" sound could be rendered in a variety of ways.
â Robusto
8 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
up vote
14
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
answered 9 hours ago
Robusto
125k27295506
125k27295506
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German â Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
â FumbleFingers
9 hours ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
â Robusto
9 hours ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
@Matt: The OE "ash" (æ) was pronounced like the a in hat and the sc digraph was pronounced like the current sh digraph. As is true today, there was a lot of latitude in the pronunciation of vowel sounds, though, so any "wæ" sound could be rendered in a variety of ways.
â Robusto
8 hours ago
add a comment |Â
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German â Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
â FumbleFingers
9 hours ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
â Robusto
9 hours ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
@Matt: The OE "ash" (æ) was pronounced like the a in hat and the sc digraph was pronounced like the current sh digraph. As is true today, there was a lot of latitude in the pronunciation of vowel sounds, though, so any "wæ" sound could be rendered in a variety of ways.
â Robusto
8 hours ago
1
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German â Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
â FumbleFingers
9 hours ago
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German â Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
â FumbleFingers
9 hours ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
â Robusto
9 hours ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
â Robusto
9 hours ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
@Matt: The OE "ash" (æ) was pronounced like the a in hat and the sc digraph was pronounced like the current sh digraph. As is true today, there was a lot of latitude in the pronunciation of vowel sounds, though, so any "wæ" sound could be rendered in a variety of ways.
â Robusto
8 hours ago
@Matt: The OE "ash" (æ) was pronounced like the a in hat and the sc digraph was pronounced like the current sh digraph. As is true today, there was a lot of latitude in the pronunciation of vowel sounds, though, so any "wæ" sound could be rendered in a variety of ways.
â Robusto
8 hours ago
add a comment |Â
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4
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
â Ian MacDonald
8 hours ago
@ianmacdonald in which case I'd expect to see "Englandish".
â Matt Gutting
8 hours ago
4
Would you? Your proposition was "Walish". When changing England to English or Scotland to Scottish, the "land" bit is converted to a form of "ish". Hence my suggestion that it would need to be "Walland" to end up as "Walish".
â Ian MacDonald
5 hours ago
@ian good point, don't know what I was thinking. I retract.
â Matt Gutting
56 mins ago