Practical height of towers without elevators

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I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented, so the limiting factor on height is ergonomic.



What would be the maximum practical height for a building where the people going up the stairs are expected to be pretty fit, and where it's deemed acceptable to need to stop for a rest on the way up?










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  • 3




    Obligatory (and surprisingly useful) XKCD
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago










  • Are you talking about a "slim" tower where people have to go up and down daily, or mountain-like, where people can live their entire lives without moving far vertically?
    – Alexander
    4 hours ago






  • 5




    Also a question that seems daft but really isn’t: What is the state of plumbing technology in this world?
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @AlexP On the off chance that was an honest attempt to contribute to the discussion, and you genuinely don't realize how it comes across, I will point out the phrase 'for the purposes of this discussion' which means yes of course water cannot be pumped to genuinely unlimited height, but is not the limiting factor under consideration here.
    – rwallace
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    "I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented." Not possible, since necessity is the mother of invention, and (for the longest time) elevators only used pulleys and counterweights. IOW, when elevators are needed, they'll be invented.
    – RonJohn
    3 hours ago














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented, so the limiting factor on height is ergonomic.



What would be the maximum practical height for a building where the people going up the stairs are expected to be pretty fit, and where it's deemed acceptable to need to stop for a rest on the way up?










share|improve this question

















  • 3




    Obligatory (and surprisingly useful) XKCD
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago










  • Are you talking about a "slim" tower where people have to go up and down daily, or mountain-like, where people can live their entire lives without moving far vertically?
    – Alexander
    4 hours ago






  • 5




    Also a question that seems daft but really isn’t: What is the state of plumbing technology in this world?
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @AlexP On the off chance that was an honest attempt to contribute to the discussion, and you genuinely don't realize how it comes across, I will point out the phrase 'for the purposes of this discussion' which means yes of course water cannot be pumped to genuinely unlimited height, but is not the limiting factor under consideration here.
    – rwallace
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    "I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented." Not possible, since necessity is the mother of invention, and (for the longest time) elevators only used pulleys and counterweights. IOW, when elevators are needed, they'll be invented.
    – RonJohn
    3 hours ago












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented, so the limiting factor on height is ergonomic.



What would be the maximum practical height for a building where the people going up the stairs are expected to be pretty fit, and where it's deemed acceptable to need to stop for a rest on the way up?










share|improve this question













I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented, so the limiting factor on height is ergonomic.



What would be the maximum practical height for a building where the people going up the stairs are expected to be pretty fit, and where it's deemed acceptable to need to stop for a rest on the way up?







science-based humans construction






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 4 hours ago









rwallace

578312




578312







  • 3




    Obligatory (and surprisingly useful) XKCD
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago










  • Are you talking about a "slim" tower where people have to go up and down daily, or mountain-like, where people can live their entire lives without moving far vertically?
    – Alexander
    4 hours ago






  • 5




    Also a question that seems daft but really isn’t: What is the state of plumbing technology in this world?
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @AlexP On the off chance that was an honest attempt to contribute to the discussion, and you genuinely don't realize how it comes across, I will point out the phrase 'for the purposes of this discussion' which means yes of course water cannot be pumped to genuinely unlimited height, but is not the limiting factor under consideration here.
    – rwallace
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    "I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented." Not possible, since necessity is the mother of invention, and (for the longest time) elevators only used pulleys and counterweights. IOW, when elevators are needed, they'll be invented.
    – RonJohn
    3 hours ago












  • 3




    Obligatory (and surprisingly useful) XKCD
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago










  • Are you talking about a "slim" tower where people have to go up and down daily, or mountain-like, where people can live their entire lives without moving far vertically?
    – Alexander
    4 hours ago






  • 5




    Also a question that seems daft but really isn’t: What is the state of plumbing technology in this world?
    – Joe Bloggs
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @AlexP On the off chance that was an honest attempt to contribute to the discussion, and you genuinely don't realize how it comes across, I will point out the phrase 'for the purposes of this discussion' which means yes of course water cannot be pumped to genuinely unlimited height, but is not the limiting factor under consideration here.
    – rwallace
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    "I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented." Not possible, since necessity is the mother of invention, and (for the longest time) elevators only used pulleys and counterweights. IOW, when elevators are needed, they'll be invented.
    – RonJohn
    3 hours ago







3




3




Obligatory (and surprisingly useful) XKCD
– Joe Bloggs
4 hours ago




Obligatory (and surprisingly useful) XKCD
– Joe Bloggs
4 hours ago












Are you talking about a "slim" tower where people have to go up and down daily, or mountain-like, where people can live their entire lives without moving far vertically?
– Alexander
4 hours ago




Are you talking about a "slim" tower where people have to go up and down daily, or mountain-like, where people can live their entire lives without moving far vertically?
– Alexander
4 hours ago




5




5




Also a question that seems daft but really isn’t: What is the state of plumbing technology in this world?
– Joe Bloggs
4 hours ago




Also a question that seems daft but really isn’t: What is the state of plumbing technology in this world?
– Joe Bloggs
4 hours ago




1




1




@AlexP On the off chance that was an honest attempt to contribute to the discussion, and you genuinely don't realize how it comes across, I will point out the phrase 'for the purposes of this discussion' which means yes of course water cannot be pumped to genuinely unlimited height, but is not the limiting factor under consideration here.
– rwallace
4 hours ago




@AlexP On the off chance that was an honest attempt to contribute to the discussion, and you genuinely don't realize how it comes across, I will point out the phrase 'for the purposes of this discussion' which means yes of course water cannot be pumped to genuinely unlimited height, but is not the limiting factor under consideration here.
– rwallace
4 hours ago




1




1




"I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented." Not possible, since necessity is the mother of invention, and (for the longest time) elevators only used pulleys and counterweights. IOW, when elevators are needed, they'll be invented.
– RonJohn
3 hours ago




"I'm writing about a setting where building technology is quite advanced, but elevators have not yet been invented." Not possible, since necessity is the mother of invention, and (for the longest time) elevators only used pulleys and counterweights. IOW, when elevators are needed, they'll be invented.
– RonJohn
3 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
4
down vote













The Problem



A large part of the problem is how big do you want to build without an elevator of some sort.



The earliest elevators were made in the third century BC. The basic technology is simple with a platform below a hoist. If you are going to be building something more than a few stories you will have a hard carrying everything up and down stairs or ladders and eventually will just throw a rope down and pull stuff up.



Once you are pulling stuff up on a rope its a short step to a loop to stick your foot in and then a board to stand on.



Gravy on the whole scheme is a pulley at the top so the lifting can be done from the bottom.



The elevators may not look like modern elevators but once you start building high, it is almost inevitable. You need to get things up to build, and moving 100kg of person up and down in order to move 50kg of concrete up just sucks.



Pretty much once you have a way of lifting stuff up, people will try to ride it.



The Solution



The only reasons elevators wouldn't be ubiquitous in tall buildings would be political or social.



Fitness Fetish



This society has a strong focus on physical fitness where there is a strong shame associated with not moving under your own power.



Historic Accidents



Elevators were invented but a tragic accident in the past instilled a cultural bias against them



Taxes



If elevators are highly taxed, then there won't be many of them except for the very rich where they would almost be a status symbol.



Practical Concerns



According to http://urbansome.com/how-many-calories-does-walking-up-the-stairs-burn/ humans burn 10 calories climbing up one floor. This means that climbing up a 20 story building means you will burn a tenth of your daily calories.



New York City used to be limited to 8 story buildings due to hydraulic concerns, they couldn't get the water up to the higher floors through pressure alone. Most of these didn't have elevators.



Of course there is also this modern building in Spain.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/architect-forgets-elevator-for-47-floor-skyscraper-in-spain-a-916082.html



A final loophole



If tall building without elevators are normal, then there will be a strong desire to tie buildings together at higher floors with elevated walkways. Commuting from the 13th floor to the 12th of a building a mile away isn't so bad if every building in between is connected at the 10th floor. There is less energy expended walking the extra mile than up the 10 extra floors.






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    up vote
    1
    down vote













    Any practical (i.e. within the troposphere) height, if there is a primary reason for people to do something on highest floors. It would be part of the duty (or pilgrimage) to ascend the tower over the course of multiple days, toiling up the supplies.



    15-20 stories high, if it's a general purpose building and it should be accessed by wide population - including frail, but high-ranking members of the society. Any more than that, and carrying up a high-level bureaucrat on the stairs would became an impractical task.






    share|improve this answer





























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      I've walked up several tall structures - the tallest may have been Ulm Minster; at 161 m approximately the same height as 50 storey building. I'm middle-aged and quite unfit - I found it pretty tiring, needing to stop for a rest a couple of times.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.

















        Your Answer




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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes








        up vote
        4
        down vote













        The Problem



        A large part of the problem is how big do you want to build without an elevator of some sort.



        The earliest elevators were made in the third century BC. The basic technology is simple with a platform below a hoist. If you are going to be building something more than a few stories you will have a hard carrying everything up and down stairs or ladders and eventually will just throw a rope down and pull stuff up.



        Once you are pulling stuff up on a rope its a short step to a loop to stick your foot in and then a board to stand on.



        Gravy on the whole scheme is a pulley at the top so the lifting can be done from the bottom.



        The elevators may not look like modern elevators but once you start building high, it is almost inevitable. You need to get things up to build, and moving 100kg of person up and down in order to move 50kg of concrete up just sucks.



        Pretty much once you have a way of lifting stuff up, people will try to ride it.



        The Solution



        The only reasons elevators wouldn't be ubiquitous in tall buildings would be political or social.



        Fitness Fetish



        This society has a strong focus on physical fitness where there is a strong shame associated with not moving under your own power.



        Historic Accidents



        Elevators were invented but a tragic accident in the past instilled a cultural bias against them



        Taxes



        If elevators are highly taxed, then there won't be many of them except for the very rich where they would almost be a status symbol.



        Practical Concerns



        According to http://urbansome.com/how-many-calories-does-walking-up-the-stairs-burn/ humans burn 10 calories climbing up one floor. This means that climbing up a 20 story building means you will burn a tenth of your daily calories.



        New York City used to be limited to 8 story buildings due to hydraulic concerns, they couldn't get the water up to the higher floors through pressure alone. Most of these didn't have elevators.



        Of course there is also this modern building in Spain.
        http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/architect-forgets-elevator-for-47-floor-skyscraper-in-spain-a-916082.html



        A final loophole



        If tall building without elevators are normal, then there will be a strong desire to tie buildings together at higher floors with elevated walkways. Commuting from the 13th floor to the 12th of a building a mile away isn't so bad if every building in between is connected at the 10th floor. There is less energy expended walking the extra mile than up the 10 extra floors.






        share|improve this answer
























          up vote
          4
          down vote













          The Problem



          A large part of the problem is how big do you want to build without an elevator of some sort.



          The earliest elevators were made in the third century BC. The basic technology is simple with a platform below a hoist. If you are going to be building something more than a few stories you will have a hard carrying everything up and down stairs or ladders and eventually will just throw a rope down and pull stuff up.



          Once you are pulling stuff up on a rope its a short step to a loop to stick your foot in and then a board to stand on.



          Gravy on the whole scheme is a pulley at the top so the lifting can be done from the bottom.



          The elevators may not look like modern elevators but once you start building high, it is almost inevitable. You need to get things up to build, and moving 100kg of person up and down in order to move 50kg of concrete up just sucks.



          Pretty much once you have a way of lifting stuff up, people will try to ride it.



          The Solution



          The only reasons elevators wouldn't be ubiquitous in tall buildings would be political or social.



          Fitness Fetish



          This society has a strong focus on physical fitness where there is a strong shame associated with not moving under your own power.



          Historic Accidents



          Elevators were invented but a tragic accident in the past instilled a cultural bias against them



          Taxes



          If elevators are highly taxed, then there won't be many of them except for the very rich where they would almost be a status symbol.



          Practical Concerns



          According to http://urbansome.com/how-many-calories-does-walking-up-the-stairs-burn/ humans burn 10 calories climbing up one floor. This means that climbing up a 20 story building means you will burn a tenth of your daily calories.



          New York City used to be limited to 8 story buildings due to hydraulic concerns, they couldn't get the water up to the higher floors through pressure alone. Most of these didn't have elevators.



          Of course there is also this modern building in Spain.
          http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/architect-forgets-elevator-for-47-floor-skyscraper-in-spain-a-916082.html



          A final loophole



          If tall building without elevators are normal, then there will be a strong desire to tie buildings together at higher floors with elevated walkways. Commuting from the 13th floor to the 12th of a building a mile away isn't so bad if every building in between is connected at the 10th floor. There is less energy expended walking the extra mile than up the 10 extra floors.






          share|improve this answer






















            up vote
            4
            down vote










            up vote
            4
            down vote









            The Problem



            A large part of the problem is how big do you want to build without an elevator of some sort.



            The earliest elevators were made in the third century BC. The basic technology is simple with a platform below a hoist. If you are going to be building something more than a few stories you will have a hard carrying everything up and down stairs or ladders and eventually will just throw a rope down and pull stuff up.



            Once you are pulling stuff up on a rope its a short step to a loop to stick your foot in and then a board to stand on.



            Gravy on the whole scheme is a pulley at the top so the lifting can be done from the bottom.



            The elevators may not look like modern elevators but once you start building high, it is almost inevitable. You need to get things up to build, and moving 100kg of person up and down in order to move 50kg of concrete up just sucks.



            Pretty much once you have a way of lifting stuff up, people will try to ride it.



            The Solution



            The only reasons elevators wouldn't be ubiquitous in tall buildings would be political or social.



            Fitness Fetish



            This society has a strong focus on physical fitness where there is a strong shame associated with not moving under your own power.



            Historic Accidents



            Elevators were invented but a tragic accident in the past instilled a cultural bias against them



            Taxes



            If elevators are highly taxed, then there won't be many of them except for the very rich where they would almost be a status symbol.



            Practical Concerns



            According to http://urbansome.com/how-many-calories-does-walking-up-the-stairs-burn/ humans burn 10 calories climbing up one floor. This means that climbing up a 20 story building means you will burn a tenth of your daily calories.



            New York City used to be limited to 8 story buildings due to hydraulic concerns, they couldn't get the water up to the higher floors through pressure alone. Most of these didn't have elevators.



            Of course there is also this modern building in Spain.
            http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/architect-forgets-elevator-for-47-floor-skyscraper-in-spain-a-916082.html



            A final loophole



            If tall building without elevators are normal, then there will be a strong desire to tie buildings together at higher floors with elevated walkways. Commuting from the 13th floor to the 12th of a building a mile away isn't so bad if every building in between is connected at the 10th floor. There is less energy expended walking the extra mile than up the 10 extra floors.






            share|improve this answer












            The Problem



            A large part of the problem is how big do you want to build without an elevator of some sort.



            The earliest elevators were made in the third century BC. The basic technology is simple with a platform below a hoist. If you are going to be building something more than a few stories you will have a hard carrying everything up and down stairs or ladders and eventually will just throw a rope down and pull stuff up.



            Once you are pulling stuff up on a rope its a short step to a loop to stick your foot in and then a board to stand on.



            Gravy on the whole scheme is a pulley at the top so the lifting can be done from the bottom.



            The elevators may not look like modern elevators but once you start building high, it is almost inevitable. You need to get things up to build, and moving 100kg of person up and down in order to move 50kg of concrete up just sucks.



            Pretty much once you have a way of lifting stuff up, people will try to ride it.



            The Solution



            The only reasons elevators wouldn't be ubiquitous in tall buildings would be political or social.



            Fitness Fetish



            This society has a strong focus on physical fitness where there is a strong shame associated with not moving under your own power.



            Historic Accidents



            Elevators were invented but a tragic accident in the past instilled a cultural bias against them



            Taxes



            If elevators are highly taxed, then there won't be many of them except for the very rich where they would almost be a status symbol.



            Practical Concerns



            According to http://urbansome.com/how-many-calories-does-walking-up-the-stairs-burn/ humans burn 10 calories climbing up one floor. This means that climbing up a 20 story building means you will burn a tenth of your daily calories.



            New York City used to be limited to 8 story buildings due to hydraulic concerns, they couldn't get the water up to the higher floors through pressure alone. Most of these didn't have elevators.



            Of course there is also this modern building in Spain.
            http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/architect-forgets-elevator-for-47-floor-skyscraper-in-spain-a-916082.html



            A final loophole



            If tall building without elevators are normal, then there will be a strong desire to tie buildings together at higher floors with elevated walkways. Commuting from the 13th floor to the 12th of a building a mile away isn't so bad if every building in between is connected at the 10th floor. There is less energy expended walking the extra mile than up the 10 extra floors.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 3 hours ago









            MongoTheGeek

            1775




            1775




















                up vote
                1
                down vote













                Any practical (i.e. within the troposphere) height, if there is a primary reason for people to do something on highest floors. It would be part of the duty (or pilgrimage) to ascend the tower over the course of multiple days, toiling up the supplies.



                15-20 stories high, if it's a general purpose building and it should be accessed by wide population - including frail, but high-ranking members of the society. Any more than that, and carrying up a high-level bureaucrat on the stairs would became an impractical task.






                share|improve this answer


























                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote













                  Any practical (i.e. within the troposphere) height, if there is a primary reason for people to do something on highest floors. It would be part of the duty (or pilgrimage) to ascend the tower over the course of multiple days, toiling up the supplies.



                  15-20 stories high, if it's a general purpose building and it should be accessed by wide population - including frail, but high-ranking members of the society. Any more than that, and carrying up a high-level bureaucrat on the stairs would became an impractical task.






                  share|improve this answer
























                    up vote
                    1
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    1
                    down vote









                    Any practical (i.e. within the troposphere) height, if there is a primary reason for people to do something on highest floors. It would be part of the duty (or pilgrimage) to ascend the tower over the course of multiple days, toiling up the supplies.



                    15-20 stories high, if it's a general purpose building and it should be accessed by wide population - including frail, but high-ranking members of the society. Any more than that, and carrying up a high-level bureaucrat on the stairs would became an impractical task.






                    share|improve this answer














                    Any practical (i.e. within the troposphere) height, if there is a primary reason for people to do something on highest floors. It would be part of the duty (or pilgrimage) to ascend the tower over the course of multiple days, toiling up the supplies.



                    15-20 stories high, if it's a general purpose building and it should be accessed by wide population - including frail, but high-ranking members of the society. Any more than that, and carrying up a high-level bureaucrat on the stairs would became an impractical task.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 3 hours ago

























                    answered 3 hours ago









                    Alexander

                    17k42967




                    17k42967




















                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        I've walked up several tall structures - the tallest may have been Ulm Minster; at 161 m approximately the same height as 50 storey building. I'm middle-aged and quite unfit - I found it pretty tiring, needing to stop for a rest a couple of times.






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote













                          I've walked up several tall structures - the tallest may have been Ulm Minster; at 161 m approximately the same height as 50 storey building. I'm middle-aged and quite unfit - I found it pretty tiring, needing to stop for a rest a couple of times.






                          share|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.



















                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote









                            I've walked up several tall structures - the tallest may have been Ulm Minster; at 161 m approximately the same height as 50 storey building. I'm middle-aged and quite unfit - I found it pretty tiring, needing to stop for a rest a couple of times.






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            I've walked up several tall structures - the tallest may have been Ulm Minster; at 161 m approximately the same height as 50 storey building. I'm middle-aged and quite unfit - I found it pretty tiring, needing to stop for a rest a couple of times.







                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer






                            New contributor




                            Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            answered 2 hours ago









                            Nick

                            1




                            1




                            New contributor




                            Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.





                            New contributor





                            Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                            Nick is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.



























                                 

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