How can a person truly love another if hard determinism is true?
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I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.
How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?
determinism emotions love
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up vote
13
down vote
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I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.
How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?
determinism emotions love
38
I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
â Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52
11
If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
â Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56
30
The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
â Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44
4
Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
â Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54
6
If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
â WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27
 |Â
show 7 more comments
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.
How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?
determinism emotions love
I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.
How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?
determinism emotions love
determinism emotions love
edited Oct 1 at 17:28
Geoffrey Thomas
19.7k21680
19.7k21680
asked Oct 1 at 10:59
anonymouswho
415312
415312
38
I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
â Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52
11
If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
â Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56
30
The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
â Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44
4
Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
â Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54
6
If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
â WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27
 |Â
show 7 more comments
38
I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
â Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52
11
If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
â Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56
30
The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
â Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44
4
Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
â Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54
6
If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
â WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27
38
38
I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
â Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52
I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
â Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52
11
11
If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
â Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56
If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
â Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56
30
30
The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
â Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44
The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
â Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44
4
4
Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
â Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54
Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
â Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54
6
6
If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
â WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27
If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
â WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27
 |Â
show 7 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
up vote
32
down vote
accepted
Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.
Hard determinism is roughly the view that :
For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.
If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.
Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.
1
Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
â elliot svensson
Oct 1 at 18:32
13
No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
â Apollys
Oct 1 at 18:38
Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that thereâÂÂs really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
â anonymouswho
Oct 1 at 23:31
1
I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
â jpmc26
Oct 2 at 9:51
1
I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
â Geoffrey Thomas
Oct 2 at 10:20
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
7
down vote
If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.
Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.
6
So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
â Dan Henderson
Oct 2 at 17:15
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.
The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
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I'll challenge the frame of the question.
"Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.
Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.
Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.
You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.
You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
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Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".
Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.
(Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.
You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well ð ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
The question is meaningless.
If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.
There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.
This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following:)(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G
(Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
â Wildcard
Oct 2 at 20:24
It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 1:29
@Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean theyâÂÂre random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
â anonymouswho
Oct 3 at 5:32
If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
â Wildcard
Oct 3 at 5:35
@Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 7:29
 |Â
show 1 more comment
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
32
down vote
accepted
Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.
Hard determinism is roughly the view that :
For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.
If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.
Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.
1
Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
â elliot svensson
Oct 1 at 18:32
13
No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
â Apollys
Oct 1 at 18:38
Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that thereâÂÂs really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
â anonymouswho
Oct 1 at 23:31
1
I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
â jpmc26
Oct 2 at 9:51
1
I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
â Geoffrey Thomas
Oct 2 at 10:20
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
32
down vote
accepted
Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.
Hard determinism is roughly the view that :
For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.
If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.
Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.
1
Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
â elliot svensson
Oct 1 at 18:32
13
No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
â Apollys
Oct 1 at 18:38
Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that thereâÂÂs really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
â anonymouswho
Oct 1 at 23:31
1
I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
â jpmc26
Oct 2 at 9:51
1
I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
â Geoffrey Thomas
Oct 2 at 10:20
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
32
down vote
accepted
up vote
32
down vote
accepted
Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.
Hard determinism is roughly the view that :
For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.
If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.
Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.
Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.
Hard determinism is roughly the view that :
For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.
If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.
Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.
answered Oct 1 at 14:00
Geoffrey Thomas
19.7k21680
19.7k21680
1
Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
â elliot svensson
Oct 1 at 18:32
13
No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
â Apollys
Oct 1 at 18:38
Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that thereâÂÂs really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
â anonymouswho
Oct 1 at 23:31
1
I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
â jpmc26
Oct 2 at 9:51
1
I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
â Geoffrey Thomas
Oct 2 at 10:20
 |Â
show 3 more comments
1
Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
â elliot svensson
Oct 1 at 18:32
13
No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
â Apollys
Oct 1 at 18:38
Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that thereâÂÂs really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
â anonymouswho
Oct 1 at 23:31
1
I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
â jpmc26
Oct 2 at 9:51
1
I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
â Geoffrey Thomas
Oct 2 at 10:20
1
1
Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
â elliot svensson
Oct 1 at 18:32
Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
â elliot svensson
Oct 1 at 18:32
13
13
No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
â Apollys
Oct 1 at 18:38
No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
â Apollys
Oct 1 at 18:38
Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that thereâÂÂs really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
â anonymouswho
Oct 1 at 23:31
Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that thereâÂÂs really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
â anonymouswho
Oct 1 at 23:31
1
1
I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
â jpmc26
Oct 2 at 9:51
I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
â jpmc26
Oct 2 at 9:51
1
1
I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
â Geoffrey Thomas
Oct 2 at 10:20
I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
â Geoffrey Thomas
Oct 2 at 10:20
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
7
down vote
If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
up vote
7
down vote
If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.
New contributor
If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Oct 1 at 12:04
motosubatsu
1915
1915
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.
Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.
6
So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
â Dan Henderson
Oct 2 at 17:15
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.
Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.
6
So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
â Dan Henderson
Oct 2 at 17:15
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
up vote
7
down vote
The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.
Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.
The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.
Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.
answered Oct 1 at 22:51
Kaz
35715
35715
6
So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
â Dan Henderson
Oct 2 at 17:15
add a comment |Â
6
So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
â Dan Henderson
Oct 2 at 17:15
6
6
So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
â Dan Henderson
Oct 2 at 17:15
So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
â Dan Henderson
Oct 2 at 17:15
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.
The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.
The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.
The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).
Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.
The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).
answered Oct 1 at 16:53
mathreadler
1676
1676
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up vote
1
down vote
I'll challenge the frame of the question.
"Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.
Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.
Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.
You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.
You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
I'll challenge the frame of the question.
"Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.
Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.
Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.
You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.
You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
I'll challenge the frame of the question.
"Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.
Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.
Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.
You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.
You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.
New contributor
I'll challenge the frame of the question.
"Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.
Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.
Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.
You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.
You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Oct 2 at 7:27
Oxy
1191
1191
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".
Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.
(Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.
You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well ð ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".
Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.
(Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.
You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well ð ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".
Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.
(Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.
You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well ð ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.
Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".
Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.
(Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.
You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well ð ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.
answered Oct 3 at 11:40
David Mulder
21617
21617
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
The question is meaningless.
If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.
There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.
This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following:)(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G
(Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
â Wildcard
Oct 2 at 20:24
It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 1:29
@Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean theyâÂÂre random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
â anonymouswho
Oct 3 at 5:32
If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
â Wildcard
Oct 3 at 5:35
@Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 7:29
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
-1
down vote
The question is meaningless.
If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.
There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.
This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following:)(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G
(Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
â Wildcard
Oct 2 at 20:24
It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 1:29
@Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean theyâÂÂre random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
â anonymouswho
Oct 3 at 5:32
If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
â Wildcard
Oct 3 at 5:35
@Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 7:29
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
The question is meaningless.
If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.
There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.
The question is meaningless.
If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.
There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.
answered Oct 2 at 7:37
Tom
1,06128
1,06128
This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following:)(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G
(Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
â Wildcard
Oct 2 at 20:24
It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 1:29
@Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean theyâÂÂre random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
â anonymouswho
Oct 3 at 5:32
If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
â Wildcard
Oct 3 at 5:35
@Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 7:29
 |Â
show 1 more comment
This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following:)(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G
(Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
â Wildcard
Oct 2 at 20:24
It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 1:29
@Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean theyâÂÂre random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
â anonymouswho
Oct 3 at 5:32
If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
â Wildcard
Oct 3 at 5:35
@Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 7:29
This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following:
)(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G
(Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)â Wildcard
Oct 2 at 20:24
This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following:
)(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G
(Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)â Wildcard
Oct 2 at 20:24
It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 1:29
It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 1:29
@Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean theyâÂÂre random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
â anonymouswho
Oct 3 at 5:32
@Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean theyâÂÂre random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
â anonymouswho
Oct 3 at 5:32
If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
â Wildcard
Oct 3 at 5:35
If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
â Wildcard
Oct 3 at 5:35
@Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 7:29
@Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
â Tom
Oct 3 at 7:29
 |Â
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38
I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
â Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52
11
If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
â Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56
30
The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
â Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44
4
Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
â Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54
6
If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
â WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27