How can a person truly love another if hard determinism is true?

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I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.



How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?










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  • 38




    I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
    – Chelonian
    Oct 1 at 13:52






  • 11




    If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
    – Joshua
    Oct 1 at 16:56






  • 30




    The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
    – Akshat Mahajan
    Oct 1 at 18:44






  • 4




    Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
    – Steve
    Oct 1 at 18:54






  • 6




    If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
    – WGroleau
    Oct 1 at 23:27














up vote
13
down vote

favorite
2












I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.



How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?










share|improve this question



















  • 38




    I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
    – Chelonian
    Oct 1 at 13:52






  • 11




    If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
    – Joshua
    Oct 1 at 16:56






  • 30




    The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
    – Akshat Mahajan
    Oct 1 at 18:44






  • 4




    Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
    – Steve
    Oct 1 at 18:54






  • 6




    If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
    – WGroleau
    Oct 1 at 23:27












up vote
13
down vote

favorite
2









up vote
13
down vote

favorite
2






2





I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.



How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?










share|improve this question















I have a wife and two kids. According to hard determinism, I was determined since time began moving forward to marry my wife and have my children. Every moment we share together was also predetermined, and my affection for them is a chemical reaction in my brain that is likewise bound by the laws of physics.



How can a person truly love another if hard determinsim is true?







determinism emotions love






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edited Oct 1 at 17:28









Geoffrey Thomas

19.7k21680




19.7k21680










asked Oct 1 at 10:59









anonymouswho

415312




415312







  • 38




    I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
    – Chelonian
    Oct 1 at 13:52






  • 11




    If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
    – Joshua
    Oct 1 at 16:56






  • 30




    The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
    – Akshat Mahajan
    Oct 1 at 18:44






  • 4




    Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
    – Steve
    Oct 1 at 18:54






  • 6




    If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
    – WGroleau
    Oct 1 at 23:27












  • 38




    I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
    – Chelonian
    Oct 1 at 13:52






  • 11




    If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
    – Joshua
    Oct 1 at 16:56






  • 30




    The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
    – Akshat Mahajan
    Oct 1 at 18:44






  • 4




    Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
    – Steve
    Oct 1 at 18:54






  • 6




    If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
    – WGroleau
    Oct 1 at 23:27







38




38




I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
– Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52




I don't see a contradiction in your post. What's the problem?
– Chelonian
Oct 1 at 13:52




11




11




If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
– Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56




If hard determinism is true, then no soft "why" question is logical.
– Joshua
Oct 1 at 16:56




30




30




The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
– Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44




The implicit assumption in this question is that love is only considered 'true' if it is a consequence of free will. That's an assumption driven by culture, not by definition.
– Akshat Mahajan
Oct 1 at 18:44




4




4




Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
– Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54




Please clarify your question. As is it doesn't make any sense as determinism doesn't invalidate love by definition.
– Steve
Oct 1 at 18:54




6




6




If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
– WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27




If determinism is that hard, then discussing it is also meaningless.
– WGroleau
Oct 1 at 23:27










7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
32
down vote



accepted










Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.



Hard determinism is roughly the view that :



For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.



If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.



Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.






share|improve this answer
















  • 1




    Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
    – elliot svensson
    Oct 1 at 18:32






  • 13




    No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
    – Apollys
    Oct 1 at 18:38










  • Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that there’s really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
    – anonymouswho
    Oct 1 at 23:31






  • 1




    I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
    – jpmc26
    Oct 2 at 9:51







  • 1




    I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
    – Geoffrey Thomas
    Oct 2 at 10:20

















up vote
7
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If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.






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motosubatsu is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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    up vote
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    The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.



    Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.






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    • 6




      So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
      – Dan Henderson
      Oct 2 at 17:15

















    up vote
    6
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    Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.



    The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).






    share|improve this answer



























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      I'll challenge the frame of the question.



      "Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.



      Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.



      Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.



      You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
      The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.



      You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.






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        up vote
        1
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        Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".



        Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.



        (Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.



        You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well 😅 ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.






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          up vote
          -1
          down vote













          The question is meaningless.



          If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.



          There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.






          share|improve this answer




















          • This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following: )(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G (Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
            – Wildcard
            Oct 2 at 20:24











          • It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
            – Tom
            Oct 3 at 1:29










          • @Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean they’re random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
            – anonymouswho
            Oct 3 at 5:32










          • If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
            – Wildcard
            Oct 3 at 5:35










          • @Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
            – Tom
            Oct 3 at 7:29










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          7 Answers
          7






          active

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          7 Answers
          7






          active

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          active

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          up vote
          32
          down vote



          accepted










          Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.



          Hard determinism is roughly the view that :



          For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.



          If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.



          Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.






          share|improve this answer
















          • 1




            Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
            – elliot svensson
            Oct 1 at 18:32






          • 13




            No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
            – Apollys
            Oct 1 at 18:38










          • Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that there’s really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
            – anonymouswho
            Oct 1 at 23:31






          • 1




            I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
            – jpmc26
            Oct 2 at 9:51







          • 1




            I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
            – Geoffrey Thomas
            Oct 2 at 10:20














          up vote
          32
          down vote



          accepted










          Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.



          Hard determinism is roughly the view that :



          For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.



          If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.



          Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.






          share|improve this answer
















          • 1




            Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
            – elliot svensson
            Oct 1 at 18:32






          • 13




            No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
            – Apollys
            Oct 1 at 18:38










          • Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that there’s really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
            – anonymouswho
            Oct 1 at 23:31






          • 1




            I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
            – jpmc26
            Oct 2 at 9:51







          • 1




            I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
            – Geoffrey Thomas
            Oct 2 at 10:20












          up vote
          32
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          32
          down vote



          accepted






          Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.



          Hard determinism is roughly the view that :



          For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.



          If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.



          Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.






          share|improve this answer












          Hard determinism does not entail that your love is a chemical reaction in your brain.



          Hard determinism is roughly the view that :



          For every event, E2, there is another event, E1, that precedes E2 and is causally sufficient for E2.



          If dualism were true, hard determinism could still be true even though E1 and E2 were purely mental, with no physical components whatever. (But I am not a dualist.) Hard determinism does not imply mind/ brain identity; it is merely consistent with it. The two positions are logically independent. Hard determinism could be true without your love being identical with a chemical reaction.



          Whether your love is a purely non-physical mental state or a chemical reaction in your brain, either way its nature is not altered by its causation. If love is a feeling of intense attachment, with associated behavioural dispositions, this is what it is whether it has been 'hard-determined' or is a voluntary state.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Oct 1 at 14:00









          Geoffrey Thomas

          19.7k21680




          19.7k21680







          • 1




            Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
            – elliot svensson
            Oct 1 at 18:32






          • 13




            No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
            – Apollys
            Oct 1 at 18:38










          • Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that there’s really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
            – anonymouswho
            Oct 1 at 23:31






          • 1




            I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
            – jpmc26
            Oct 2 at 9:51







          • 1




            I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
            – Geoffrey Thomas
            Oct 2 at 10:20












          • 1




            Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
            – elliot svensson
            Oct 1 at 18:32






          • 13




            No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
            – Apollys
            Oct 1 at 18:38










          • Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that there’s really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
            – anonymouswho
            Oct 1 at 23:31






          • 1




            I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
            – jpmc26
            Oct 2 at 9:51







          • 1




            I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
            – Geoffrey Thomas
            Oct 2 at 10:20







          1




          1




          Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
          – elliot svensson
          Oct 1 at 18:32




          Would it be true to say that under hard determinism, there's nothing especially admirable or honorable, or anything interesting at all about love?
          – elliot svensson
          Oct 1 at 18:32




          13




          13




          No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
          – Apollys
          Oct 1 at 18:38




          No, that's just an opinion. E.g. we know the physics of sunsets, does that mean there's nothing interesting about a sunset? Plenty of people would not agree with this line of thinking.
          – Apollys
          Oct 1 at 18:38












          Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that there’s really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
          – anonymouswho
          Oct 1 at 23:31




          Great answer! All the answers are good, but I like how you include the spirit stuff and show that there’s really no difference between it and a chemical reaction in the brain.
          – anonymouswho
          Oct 1 at 23:31




          1




          1




          I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
          – jpmc26
          Oct 2 at 9:51





          I would say the last line is actually where the confusion comes from. Love is often defined such that an act of will is a component of it, rather than mere feeling. Consider a marriage: couples that stay married for longs periods of time inevitably go through a lot of conflicts where those feelings of affection and attachment wane. If we call their relationship "love," then it must necessarily not consist solely of feelings; it may be better defined in terms of their commitment to maintaining that relationship.
          – jpmc26
          Oct 2 at 9:51





          1




          1




          I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
          – Geoffrey Thomas
          Oct 2 at 10:20




          I agree on the importance of commitment but commitment can, equally with feelings, be open to hard determinist explanation. Love can be a question of feelings, of commitment, or both : and of all such a hard determinist account can be given.
          – Geoffrey Thomas
          Oct 2 at 10:20










          up vote
          7
          down vote













          If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          motosubatsu is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





















            up vote
            7
            down vote













            If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.






            share|improve this answer








            New contributor




            motosubatsu is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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              up vote
              7
              down vote










              up vote
              7
              down vote









              If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.






              share|improve this answer








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              If hard determinism is correct then there is no other option so "true" love would be defined as you having the moments you've had and experiencing the corresponding chemical response that you have.







              share|improve this answer








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              answered Oct 1 at 12:04









              motosubatsu

              1915




              1915




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                  up vote
                  7
                  down vote













                  The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.



                  Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.






                  share|improve this answer
















                  • 6




                    So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
                    – Dan Henderson
                    Oct 2 at 17:15














                  up vote
                  7
                  down vote













                  The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.



                  Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.






                  share|improve this answer
















                  • 6




                    So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
                    – Dan Henderson
                    Oct 2 at 17:15












                  up vote
                  7
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  7
                  down vote









                  The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.



                  Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.






                  share|improve this answer












                  The usual question is whether free will is possible under hard determinism. However, love, particularly romantic love as conceived in the western culture, certainly is not construed as an act of free will. In the popular imagination, it is an involuntary response to someone's qualities. So in fact, quite the opposite, the concept of a predestined love that was "meant to be" specifically demands some form of determinism.



                  Determinism in the context of love can be interpreted as the sequence of events that someone has certain virtues, that you were predestined to meet that someone, and that you respond to those qualities in the only possible way.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Oct 1 at 22:51









                  Kaz

                  35715




                  35715







                  • 6




                    So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
                    – Dan Henderson
                    Oct 2 at 17:15












                  • 6




                    So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
                    – Dan Henderson
                    Oct 2 at 17:15







                  6




                  6




                  So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
                  – Dan Henderson
                  Oct 2 at 17:15




                  So, really, a better question might be "How can a person have free will if true love is real?"
                  – Dan Henderson
                  Oct 2 at 17:15










                  up vote
                  6
                  down vote













                  Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.



                  The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).






                  share|improve this answer
























                    up vote
                    6
                    down vote













                    Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.



                    The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).






                    share|improve this answer






















                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote









                      Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.



                      The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).






                      share|improve this answer












                      Love is a word we have created for an experience or a set of emotions related to something or someone. It is just a word to describe the experience of this cocktail of emotions.



                      The word in itself does not in any way disqualify if this experience is in any sense voluntary or predetermined from birth or learned from society or upbringing or maybe even induced by a magical potion (as in fairytales, no?).







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Oct 1 at 16:53









                      mathreadler

                      1676




                      1676




















                          up vote
                          1
                          down vote













                          I'll challenge the frame of the question.



                          "Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.



                          Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.



                          Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.



                          You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
                          The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.



                          You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.






                          share|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          Oxy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote













                            I'll challenge the frame of the question.



                            "Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.



                            Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.



                            Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.



                            You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
                            The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.



                            You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            Oxy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.



















                              up vote
                              1
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              1
                              down vote









                              I'll challenge the frame of the question.



                              "Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.



                              Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.



                              Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.



                              You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
                              The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.



                              You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.






                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Oxy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              I'll challenge the frame of the question.



                              "Truly love" as in hollywood is a fictitious license / artifact for entertainment purposes.



                              Real love is a different thing for each relationship. Some are paternal, come protective, some dependent, some mutual admiration, some are a kind of deeper friendship, some companionship, some complicated shared pasts, some sexual/physical, some a form of idealization... And of course, mixes of all those. As you can see, many of these may be considered "shallow". But you can deepen any of those a lot and would be considered real. The one feeling them will at least consider them very real. But some of those, in the deep form, are considered harmful or toxic from the outside. Both are real, the shallow versions and the ones felt strongest. They are real because they exist, and they define behaviors.



                              Like stones are real, without having anything other than determinism defining their characteristics and behavior.



                              You may have seen some form of love different from the one you experience, and being a form of love that you have not experienced, may be thinking that the other one has some quality that yours does not have and that makes it more "pure" or "real", but oh boy.
                              The real versions of hollywood "love" (too sexual, too based on idealization of relationships and too hormone based ) end pretty fast, badly, with someone pretty broken, and many times a kid(s) eating what's left.



                              You experience real love. That it lacks some quality that you have seen from the outside on other loves does not make those more real or yours less. Mind that the outside is usually the best that the participants allow to publicly surface; all relationships have complicated pieces dancing under the surface, and many of those pieces are the closest to determinism and instinct that you can get.







                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Oxy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer






                              New contributor




                              Oxy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              answered Oct 2 at 7:27









                              Oxy

                              1191




                              1191




                              New contributor




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                              New contributor





                              Oxy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                              Oxy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                  up vote
                                  1
                                  down vote













                                  Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".



                                  Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.



                                  (Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.



                                  You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well 😅 ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.






                                  share|improve this answer
























                                    up vote
                                    1
                                    down vote













                                    Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".



                                    Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.



                                    (Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.



                                    You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well 😅 ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.






                                    share|improve this answer






















                                      up vote
                                      1
                                      down vote










                                      up vote
                                      1
                                      down vote









                                      Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".



                                      Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.



                                      (Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.



                                      You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well 😅 ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.






                                      share|improve this answer












                                      Make sure to understand the difference between "hard determinism" and "ontological monoistic reductionism".



                                      Hard determinism is the view that free will can not exist, because of determinism.



                                      (Matter-centric) Ontological monoistic reductionism is the view that all things can be reduced to matter.



                                      You will find a lot of religious people who believe in hard determinism, but not in reductionism, so they fully appreciate the metaphysical (in theory they could be dualist reductionists, but oh well 😅 ). Ontological monostic "matter" reductionism is the thing that equates "love" to nothing more than a chemical reaction, whilst hard determinism doesn't do that in any way.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered Oct 3 at 11:40









                                      David Mulder

                                      21617




                                      21617




















                                          up vote
                                          -1
                                          down vote













                                          The question is meaningless.



                                          If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.



                                          There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.






                                          share|improve this answer




















                                          • This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following: )(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G (Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 2 at 20:24











                                          • It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 1:29










                                          • @Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean they’re random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
                                            – anonymouswho
                                            Oct 3 at 5:32










                                          • If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 3 at 5:35










                                          • @Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 7:29














                                          up vote
                                          -1
                                          down vote













                                          The question is meaningless.



                                          If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.



                                          There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.






                                          share|improve this answer




















                                          • This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following: )(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G (Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 2 at 20:24











                                          • It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 1:29










                                          • @Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean they’re random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
                                            – anonymouswho
                                            Oct 3 at 5:32










                                          • If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 3 at 5:35










                                          • @Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 7:29












                                          up vote
                                          -1
                                          down vote










                                          up vote
                                          -1
                                          down vote









                                          The question is meaningless.



                                          If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.



                                          There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.






                                          share|improve this answer












                                          The question is meaningless.



                                          If hard determinism is true, than it includes both the fact that love exists and the fact that you experience this feeling (or rather: Group of feelings) for your wife and kids.



                                          There's nothing there that makes this feeling any special. Just because you experience it as something profound does not make it so. Your birthday was a perfectly ordinary day with nothing memorably occuring for 99.999% of humanity.







                                          share|improve this answer












                                          share|improve this answer



                                          share|improve this answer










                                          answered Oct 2 at 7:37









                                          Tom

                                          1,06128




                                          1,06128











                                          • This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following: )(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G (Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 2 at 20:24











                                          • It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 1:29










                                          • @Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean they’re random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
                                            – anonymouswho
                                            Oct 3 at 5:32










                                          • If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 3 at 5:35










                                          • @Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 7:29
















                                          • This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following: )(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G (Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 2 at 20:24











                                          • It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 1:29










                                          • @Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean they’re random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
                                            – anonymouswho
                                            Oct 3 at 5:32










                                          • If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
                                            – Wildcard
                                            Oct 3 at 5:35










                                          • @Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
                                            – Tom
                                            Oct 3 at 7:29















                                          This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following: )(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G (Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
                                          – Wildcard
                                          Oct 2 at 20:24





                                          This comment was pre-determined by the big bang. Including the exact sequence of characters following: )(&))()(*{)(*(**&YGFITHD(*&F*&G (Note: I don't actually believe this, because it's ludicrous.)
                                          – Wildcard
                                          Oct 2 at 20:24













                                          It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
                                          – Tom
                                          Oct 3 at 1:29




                                          It is actually not. Predetermination does not mean someone sat down and wrote a plan. This comment can absolutely be an emergent quality of a hard deterministic universe. I don't believe in it either (and I think quantum mechanic disproves hard determinism), but there is a difference between preknowledge and predeterminism.
                                          – Tom
                                          Oct 3 at 1:29












                                          @Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean they’re random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
                                          – anonymouswho
                                          Oct 3 at 5:32




                                          @Wildcard If that sequence of characters was not determined, does that mean they’re random, or did you freely choose each character? Also, would you agree that writing those characters to begin with was determined by your emotional response to this question?
                                          – anonymouswho
                                          Oct 3 at 5:32












                                          If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
                                          – Wildcard
                                          Oct 3 at 5:35




                                          If the universe is hard deterministic, then everything in it is also. Including every wrong answer to how to use its deterministicness to predict the future. Sounds a lot like "kismet" or just plain fatalism. You can't affect anything because we're all just cogs in a machine. My comment was determined by my own independent decision.
                                          – Wildcard
                                          Oct 3 at 5:35












                                          @Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
                                          – Tom
                                          Oct 3 at 7:29




                                          @Wildcard please open a new question for that discussion. In this question, hard determinism is assumed to be true. That doesn't mean it is. It's a type of "what if" question.
                                          – Tom
                                          Oct 3 at 7:29

















                                           

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