Can enclitics be chained?

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I am active in a small Latin Discord group; a member brought up a question concerning the validity of the following phrase with chained enclitics:
ValÃÂsneque?
(with the enclitics distinguished) ValÃÂs-ne-que?
I assume that their intent was to convey something that fell around the following sentiments; it was not difficult for me to clearly interpret what he was trying to say:
And how are you?
And are you [doing] well?
etc.
However, I asserted that it was not valid, and offered a potentially suitable alternative like "et ut valÃÂs?"; another member offered the equally suitable "atque ut valÃÂs?".
I assumed that valÃÂsneque was invalid largely based on two reasons: one, the fact that, other than words with unremovable enclitics that have taken on a separate meaning (see: quëcumque, quaecumque, quodcumque and others like it), I have never encountered any instance of chained enclitics anywhere; and secondly, the fact that Latin is classified as a fusional language, and that if valÃÂsneque was indeed valid, it would be a potentially interesting case of agglutination in a fusional language.
This leads me to my primary question: is the chaining of enclitics -que, -ve, -ne in sequences like valÃÂsneque valid or not?
morphologia enclitic
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up vote
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I am active in a small Latin Discord group; a member brought up a question concerning the validity of the following phrase with chained enclitics:
ValÃÂsneque?
(with the enclitics distinguished) ValÃÂs-ne-que?
I assume that their intent was to convey something that fell around the following sentiments; it was not difficult for me to clearly interpret what he was trying to say:
And how are you?
And are you [doing] well?
etc.
However, I asserted that it was not valid, and offered a potentially suitable alternative like "et ut valÃÂs?"; another member offered the equally suitable "atque ut valÃÂs?".
I assumed that valÃÂsneque was invalid largely based on two reasons: one, the fact that, other than words with unremovable enclitics that have taken on a separate meaning (see: quëcumque, quaecumque, quodcumque and others like it), I have never encountered any instance of chained enclitics anywhere; and secondly, the fact that Latin is classified as a fusional language, and that if valÃÂsneque was indeed valid, it would be a potentially interesting case of agglutination in a fusional language.
This leads me to my primary question: is the chaining of enclitics -que, -ve, -ne in sequences like valÃÂsneque valid or not?
morphologia enclitic
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
favorite
up vote
9
down vote
favorite
I am active in a small Latin Discord group; a member brought up a question concerning the validity of the following phrase with chained enclitics:
ValÃÂsneque?
(with the enclitics distinguished) ValÃÂs-ne-que?
I assume that their intent was to convey something that fell around the following sentiments; it was not difficult for me to clearly interpret what he was trying to say:
And how are you?
And are you [doing] well?
etc.
However, I asserted that it was not valid, and offered a potentially suitable alternative like "et ut valÃÂs?"; another member offered the equally suitable "atque ut valÃÂs?".
I assumed that valÃÂsneque was invalid largely based on two reasons: one, the fact that, other than words with unremovable enclitics that have taken on a separate meaning (see: quëcumque, quaecumque, quodcumque and others like it), I have never encountered any instance of chained enclitics anywhere; and secondly, the fact that Latin is classified as a fusional language, and that if valÃÂsneque was indeed valid, it would be a potentially interesting case of agglutination in a fusional language.
This leads me to my primary question: is the chaining of enclitics -que, -ve, -ne in sequences like valÃÂsneque valid or not?
morphologia enclitic
I am active in a small Latin Discord group; a member brought up a question concerning the validity of the following phrase with chained enclitics:
ValÃÂsneque?
(with the enclitics distinguished) ValÃÂs-ne-que?
I assume that their intent was to convey something that fell around the following sentiments; it was not difficult for me to clearly interpret what he was trying to say:
And how are you?
And are you [doing] well?
etc.
However, I asserted that it was not valid, and offered a potentially suitable alternative like "et ut valÃÂs?"; another member offered the equally suitable "atque ut valÃÂs?".
I assumed that valÃÂsneque was invalid largely based on two reasons: one, the fact that, other than words with unremovable enclitics that have taken on a separate meaning (see: quëcumque, quaecumque, quodcumque and others like it), I have never encountered any instance of chained enclitics anywhere; and secondly, the fact that Latin is classified as a fusional language, and that if valÃÂsneque was indeed valid, it would be a potentially interesting case of agglutination in a fusional language.
This leads me to my primary question: is the chaining of enclitics -que, -ve, -ne in sequences like valÃÂsneque valid or not?
morphologia enclitic
morphologia enclitic
edited Oct 3 at 21:26
asked Oct 3 at 15:30
Ethan Bierlein
1,198219
1,198219
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2 Answers
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The question in the title ("Can enclitics be chained?") is broader than the one you end the body with ("Can -ne, -que, -ve be chained?").
The answer to the first question (assuming we can agree on a definition of an enclitic) is "yes." Consider one common but limited-use enclitic that you didn't bring up: -cum after certain pronouns. -cumque is quite common--and I don't just mean words like quicumque. Here's Cicero:
tecumque et ero tantum quantum patietur utriusque aetas et valetudo, et, si esse una minus poterimus quam volemus, animorum tamen coniunctione iisdemque studiis ita fruemur ut numquam non una esse videamur. (Epistulae ad Familiares 5.13)
As for the second question, I agree with Joonas's answer: a corpus search only reveals false positives for the six combinations of -que, -ne, and -ve.
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
Playing with a corpus search tool brought up no examples of -quene or -neque in the intended sense.
If chaining was admissible, I would expect to see attestations with -que and -ne, the most common enclitics.
Therefore I would argue that chaining of enclitics is not good classical Latin, but it is readily understandable in modern use.
I mentioned it in my answer, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious: how did you sift through the results for "neque#" to determine that they were all false positives? That definitely seems like the most promising combination
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 4:29
1
@brianpck To screen off the word neque, I searched for things like "sneque#" and similarly for some other common final letters beside S. I didn't go through the entire alphabet, though. I wish there was a way to search for "neque# but not #neque#"...
â Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
Oct 4 at 4:35
I didn't think of that! You're right that that eliminates the false positives!
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 13:20
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
The question in the title ("Can enclitics be chained?") is broader than the one you end the body with ("Can -ne, -que, -ve be chained?").
The answer to the first question (assuming we can agree on a definition of an enclitic) is "yes." Consider one common but limited-use enclitic that you didn't bring up: -cum after certain pronouns. -cumque is quite common--and I don't just mean words like quicumque. Here's Cicero:
tecumque et ero tantum quantum patietur utriusque aetas et valetudo, et, si esse una minus poterimus quam volemus, animorum tamen coniunctione iisdemque studiis ita fruemur ut numquam non una esse videamur. (Epistulae ad Familiares 5.13)
As for the second question, I agree with Joonas's answer: a corpus search only reveals false positives for the six combinations of -que, -ne, and -ve.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
The question in the title ("Can enclitics be chained?") is broader than the one you end the body with ("Can -ne, -que, -ve be chained?").
The answer to the first question (assuming we can agree on a definition of an enclitic) is "yes." Consider one common but limited-use enclitic that you didn't bring up: -cum after certain pronouns. -cumque is quite common--and I don't just mean words like quicumque. Here's Cicero:
tecumque et ero tantum quantum patietur utriusque aetas et valetudo, et, si esse una minus poterimus quam volemus, animorum tamen coniunctione iisdemque studiis ita fruemur ut numquam non una esse videamur. (Epistulae ad Familiares 5.13)
As for the second question, I agree with Joonas's answer: a corpus search only reveals false positives for the six combinations of -que, -ne, and -ve.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
The question in the title ("Can enclitics be chained?") is broader than the one you end the body with ("Can -ne, -que, -ve be chained?").
The answer to the first question (assuming we can agree on a definition of an enclitic) is "yes." Consider one common but limited-use enclitic that you didn't bring up: -cum after certain pronouns. -cumque is quite common--and I don't just mean words like quicumque. Here's Cicero:
tecumque et ero tantum quantum patietur utriusque aetas et valetudo, et, si esse una minus poterimus quam volemus, animorum tamen coniunctione iisdemque studiis ita fruemur ut numquam non una esse videamur. (Epistulae ad Familiares 5.13)
As for the second question, I agree with Joonas's answer: a corpus search only reveals false positives for the six combinations of -que, -ne, and -ve.
The question in the title ("Can enclitics be chained?") is broader than the one you end the body with ("Can -ne, -que, -ve be chained?").
The answer to the first question (assuming we can agree on a definition of an enclitic) is "yes." Consider one common but limited-use enclitic that you didn't bring up: -cum after certain pronouns. -cumque is quite common--and I don't just mean words like quicumque. Here's Cicero:
tecumque et ero tantum quantum patietur utriusque aetas et valetudo, et, si esse una minus poterimus quam volemus, animorum tamen coniunctione iisdemque studiis ita fruemur ut numquam non una esse videamur. (Epistulae ad Familiares 5.13)
As for the second question, I agree with Joonas's answer: a corpus search only reveals false positives for the six combinations of -que, -ne, and -ve.
edited Oct 4 at 13:32
answered Oct 4 at 4:28
brianpck
22.6k142106
22.6k142106
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
Playing with a corpus search tool brought up no examples of -quene or -neque in the intended sense.
If chaining was admissible, I would expect to see attestations with -que and -ne, the most common enclitics.
Therefore I would argue that chaining of enclitics is not good classical Latin, but it is readily understandable in modern use.
I mentioned it in my answer, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious: how did you sift through the results for "neque#" to determine that they were all false positives? That definitely seems like the most promising combination
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 4:29
1
@brianpck To screen off the word neque, I searched for things like "sneque#" and similarly for some other common final letters beside S. I didn't go through the entire alphabet, though. I wish there was a way to search for "neque# but not #neque#"...
â Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
Oct 4 at 4:35
I didn't think of that! You're right that that eliminates the false positives!
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 13:20
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
Playing with a corpus search tool brought up no examples of -quene or -neque in the intended sense.
If chaining was admissible, I would expect to see attestations with -que and -ne, the most common enclitics.
Therefore I would argue that chaining of enclitics is not good classical Latin, but it is readily understandable in modern use.
I mentioned it in my answer, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious: how did you sift through the results for "neque#" to determine that they were all false positives? That definitely seems like the most promising combination
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 4:29
1
@brianpck To screen off the word neque, I searched for things like "sneque#" and similarly for some other common final letters beside S. I didn't go through the entire alphabet, though. I wish there was a way to search for "neque# but not #neque#"...
â Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
Oct 4 at 4:35
I didn't think of that! You're right that that eliminates the false positives!
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 13:20
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
Playing with a corpus search tool brought up no examples of -quene or -neque in the intended sense.
If chaining was admissible, I would expect to see attestations with -que and -ne, the most common enclitics.
Therefore I would argue that chaining of enclitics is not good classical Latin, but it is readily understandable in modern use.
Playing with a corpus search tool brought up no examples of -quene or -neque in the intended sense.
If chaining was admissible, I would expect to see attestations with -que and -ne, the most common enclitics.
Therefore I would argue that chaining of enclitics is not good classical Latin, but it is readily understandable in modern use.
edited Oct 3 at 18:15
answered Oct 3 at 17:59
Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
43k1055249
43k1055249
I mentioned it in my answer, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious: how did you sift through the results for "neque#" to determine that they were all false positives? That definitely seems like the most promising combination
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 4:29
1
@brianpck To screen off the word neque, I searched for things like "sneque#" and similarly for some other common final letters beside S. I didn't go through the entire alphabet, though. I wish there was a way to search for "neque# but not #neque#"...
â Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
Oct 4 at 4:35
I didn't think of that! You're right that that eliminates the false positives!
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 13:20
add a comment |Â
I mentioned it in my answer, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious: how did you sift through the results for "neque#" to determine that they were all false positives? That definitely seems like the most promising combination
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 4:29
1
@brianpck To screen off the word neque, I searched for things like "sneque#" and similarly for some other common final letters beside S. I didn't go through the entire alphabet, though. I wish there was a way to search for "neque# but not #neque#"...
â Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
Oct 4 at 4:35
I didn't think of that! You're right that that eliminates the false positives!
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 13:20
I mentioned it in my answer, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious: how did you sift through the results for "neque#" to determine that they were all false positives? That definitely seems like the most promising combination
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 4:29
I mentioned it in my answer, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious: how did you sift through the results for "neque#" to determine that they were all false positives? That definitely seems like the most promising combination
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 4:29
1
1
@brianpck To screen off the word neque, I searched for things like "sneque#" and similarly for some other common final letters beside S. I didn't go through the entire alphabet, though. I wish there was a way to search for "neque# but not #neque#"...
â Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
Oct 4 at 4:35
@brianpck To screen off the word neque, I searched for things like "sneque#" and similarly for some other common final letters beside S. I didn't go through the entire alphabet, though. I wish there was a way to search for "neque# but not #neque#"...
â Joonas Ilmavirtaâ¦
Oct 4 at 4:35
I didn't think of that! You're right that that eliminates the false positives!
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 13:20
I didn't think of that! You're right that that eliminates the false positives!
â brianpck
Oct 4 at 13:20
add a comment |Â
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