How to develop an internal intuition for note timings?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP












3















I have identified three main problems holding back my piano sight reading, and this is the last of them.



Although I can play notes with the right timing by very slowly counting it out aloud ("1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4..."), I have absolutely zero ability whatsoever to just play them right intuitively just by looking at the notation.



How can I get better at this?



I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin, as well as transcriptions of modern songs and movie themes. The timings are often very irregular.










share|improve this question
























  • Are you able to play/clap back a rhythm from memory, without looking at notes on a score?

    – topo morto
    Mar 7 at 8:05











  • I think so, if I'm understanding you correctly. I can certainly play a rhythm once I know what it is, but deducing it from the sheets is difficult for me. I usually have to listen to a performance of it while reading the music.

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 8:06












  • I was trying to answer you how to interprete the speed indications of a piece but now I suddenly think time in English means the measures and counting the beats. So I assume your problem is to interprete the rhythm and to read actually the rhythm aspects of sheet music, right? Or are you asking concerning the tempi?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 7 at 9:24











  • Do you have difficulty playing rhythms like 8th note-16th note-16th note, or do you only have difficulties with tougher stuff like the 5-against-3 polyrhythms Scriabin was fond of? If you have difficulties with the former, then I question why you're playing Chopin and Liszt so often.

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 7 at 15:59






  • 1





    That's why I'm asking these questions....

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 20:13















3















I have identified three main problems holding back my piano sight reading, and this is the last of them.



Although I can play notes with the right timing by very slowly counting it out aloud ("1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4..."), I have absolutely zero ability whatsoever to just play them right intuitively just by looking at the notation.



How can I get better at this?



I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin, as well as transcriptions of modern songs and movie themes. The timings are often very irregular.










share|improve this question
























  • Are you able to play/clap back a rhythm from memory, without looking at notes on a score?

    – topo morto
    Mar 7 at 8:05











  • I think so, if I'm understanding you correctly. I can certainly play a rhythm once I know what it is, but deducing it from the sheets is difficult for me. I usually have to listen to a performance of it while reading the music.

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 8:06












  • I was trying to answer you how to interprete the speed indications of a piece but now I suddenly think time in English means the measures and counting the beats. So I assume your problem is to interprete the rhythm and to read actually the rhythm aspects of sheet music, right? Or are you asking concerning the tempi?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 7 at 9:24











  • Do you have difficulty playing rhythms like 8th note-16th note-16th note, or do you only have difficulties with tougher stuff like the 5-against-3 polyrhythms Scriabin was fond of? If you have difficulties with the former, then I question why you're playing Chopin and Liszt so often.

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 7 at 15:59






  • 1





    That's why I'm asking these questions....

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 20:13













3












3








3


1






I have identified three main problems holding back my piano sight reading, and this is the last of them.



Although I can play notes with the right timing by very slowly counting it out aloud ("1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4..."), I have absolutely zero ability whatsoever to just play them right intuitively just by looking at the notation.



How can I get better at this?



I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin, as well as transcriptions of modern songs and movie themes. The timings are often very irregular.










share|improve this question
















I have identified three main problems holding back my piano sight reading, and this is the last of them.



Although I can play notes with the right timing by very slowly counting it out aloud ("1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4..."), I have absolutely zero ability whatsoever to just play them right intuitively just by looking at the notation.



How can I get better at this?



I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin, as well as transcriptions of modern songs and movie themes. The timings are often very irregular.







piano rhythm sight-reading






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Mar 7 at 22:09







temporary_user_name

















asked Mar 7 at 7:59









temporary_user_nametemporary_user_name

88841225




88841225












  • Are you able to play/clap back a rhythm from memory, without looking at notes on a score?

    – topo morto
    Mar 7 at 8:05











  • I think so, if I'm understanding you correctly. I can certainly play a rhythm once I know what it is, but deducing it from the sheets is difficult for me. I usually have to listen to a performance of it while reading the music.

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 8:06












  • I was trying to answer you how to interprete the speed indications of a piece but now I suddenly think time in English means the measures and counting the beats. So I assume your problem is to interprete the rhythm and to read actually the rhythm aspects of sheet music, right? Or are you asking concerning the tempi?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 7 at 9:24











  • Do you have difficulty playing rhythms like 8th note-16th note-16th note, or do you only have difficulties with tougher stuff like the 5-against-3 polyrhythms Scriabin was fond of? If you have difficulties with the former, then I question why you're playing Chopin and Liszt so often.

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 7 at 15:59






  • 1





    That's why I'm asking these questions....

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 20:13

















  • Are you able to play/clap back a rhythm from memory, without looking at notes on a score?

    – topo morto
    Mar 7 at 8:05











  • I think so, if I'm understanding you correctly. I can certainly play a rhythm once I know what it is, but deducing it from the sheets is difficult for me. I usually have to listen to a performance of it while reading the music.

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 8:06












  • I was trying to answer you how to interprete the speed indications of a piece but now I suddenly think time in English means the measures and counting the beats. So I assume your problem is to interprete the rhythm and to read actually the rhythm aspects of sheet music, right? Or are you asking concerning the tempi?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 7 at 9:24











  • Do you have difficulty playing rhythms like 8th note-16th note-16th note, or do you only have difficulties with tougher stuff like the 5-against-3 polyrhythms Scriabin was fond of? If you have difficulties with the former, then I question why you're playing Chopin and Liszt so often.

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 7 at 15:59






  • 1





    That's why I'm asking these questions....

    – temporary_user_name
    Mar 7 at 20:13
















Are you able to play/clap back a rhythm from memory, without looking at notes on a score?

– topo morto
Mar 7 at 8:05





Are you able to play/clap back a rhythm from memory, without looking at notes on a score?

– topo morto
Mar 7 at 8:05













I think so, if I'm understanding you correctly. I can certainly play a rhythm once I know what it is, but deducing it from the sheets is difficult for me. I usually have to listen to a performance of it while reading the music.

– temporary_user_name
Mar 7 at 8:06






I think so, if I'm understanding you correctly. I can certainly play a rhythm once I know what it is, but deducing it from the sheets is difficult for me. I usually have to listen to a performance of it while reading the music.

– temporary_user_name
Mar 7 at 8:06














I was trying to answer you how to interprete the speed indications of a piece but now I suddenly think time in English means the measures and counting the beats. So I assume your problem is to interprete the rhythm and to read actually the rhythm aspects of sheet music, right? Or are you asking concerning the tempi?

– Albrecht Hügli
Mar 7 at 9:24





I was trying to answer you how to interprete the speed indications of a piece but now I suddenly think time in English means the measures and counting the beats. So I assume your problem is to interprete the rhythm and to read actually the rhythm aspects of sheet music, right? Or are you asking concerning the tempi?

– Albrecht Hügli
Mar 7 at 9:24













Do you have difficulty playing rhythms like 8th note-16th note-16th note, or do you only have difficulties with tougher stuff like the 5-against-3 polyrhythms Scriabin was fond of? If you have difficulties with the former, then I question why you're playing Chopin and Liszt so often.

– Dekkadeci
Mar 7 at 15:59





Do you have difficulty playing rhythms like 8th note-16th note-16th note, or do you only have difficulties with tougher stuff like the 5-against-3 polyrhythms Scriabin was fond of? If you have difficulties with the former, then I question why you're playing Chopin and Liszt so often.

– Dekkadeci
Mar 7 at 15:59




1




1





That's why I'm asking these questions....

– temporary_user_name
Mar 7 at 20:13





That's why I'm asking these questions....

– temporary_user_name
Mar 7 at 20:13










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















1














Practice a variety of two part rhythms.



  • use a metronome

  • count out load while practicing (video on the psychology of counting out loud)

  • use a good counting system (rhythm syllables like Kodaly) to develop awareness of the beat versus subdivisions

  • pay attention to both composite rhythms and the individual rhtyhms, make sure the accents in each individual rhythm is correct

There are a lot of rhythm practice books available, or you could make your own exercises.



I didn't like the books I was finding - the rhythms seemed too irregular - so I made my own cards for simple & compound meters with also syncopation and polyrhythms. I made sure the counting syllables were clear...



enter image description here



...if you can't find a published resource for your needs, make your own.




A general though about sight reading:




I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin...



I've listened to it many times while reading the music so I know exactly what it should sound like




It sounds like you are reading that 19th century repertoire, but not sight-reading it. That's fine, but it's really two different kinds of reading.



I don't know that you have only difficult material from those composers, but I suspect that may be the case.



You want to make sure you are sight reading the right level of music. With that 19th century repertoire a lot was not meant for sight reading but virtuosic display.



  • for 19th century style try finding simpler, shorter stuff like Schumann's Album for the Young, Schubert's keyboard dances, Burgmuller op.100, piano accompaniment parts from song albums might offer good material too. But dances sets and collections for young/beginners are a good place to start looking.

  • 18th century classical style, Czerny is a great source. Lot of people dump on Czerny, but look at the Recreations, Progressive Studies, etc they offer lots of charming, modest pieces. Also typical keyboard instruction manuals from this time follow a format of music fundamentals and basic fingerings followed by a collection of fairly easy pieces. Clementi's Art of Piano Forte Playing is a good example. Also, get L. Mozart's Nannerl Notebook and W.A. Mozart's London Sketchbook. Those are filled with tons of short pieces.

  • 18th century baroque style, get the Bach notebooks for Wilhelm Friedman and Anna Magdalena. Also, the Bach 371 Harmonized Chorales for keyboard are sight readable. There are endless dance suites and dance sets in this period. Telemann's 36 Keyboard Fantasias, Handel's sonatinas, and other small scale early sonata forms could be good sight reading material too.

A huge amount of the material above is available at http://imslp.org.



You probably can see there is a theme of dance forms. The important thing about that genre is much of it was meant for amateur players and home entertainment. Most of it wasn't virtuosic concert material. I think a lot of it was meant to be read and played without a huge amount of preparation. That kind of stuff should make good sight reading material.



Volume is important. Get enough material that you can't memorize it.




Simpler music isn't really much fun, that's why. And I have succeeded at learning many such pieces despite my limitations




This may be an impasse. If you enjoy the technical challenge of difficult music, then sight reading doesn't seem like a type of playing to satisfy you. "To each his own" I suppose. You don't have to sight read if you don't like to do it.



But I think you want to make a clear distinction what sight reading is about. I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees with me, but people don't sight read stuff like Debussy's Preludes or Liszt's Etudes. Sight reading is for smaller scale stuff of modest difficulty not virtuosic display.






share|improve this answer






























    5














    Counting while playing is already the way to go! Be patient and don't give up. It will come.



    I think what will help you is practicing to identify the big beats in a rhytmically complicated measure. Do it often just with the score, away from the piano. There's no shame in indicating with a small pencil line where every beat falls, for complicated rhythms you can even indicate the smaller subdivisions. When you know how the rhythm is built you can tap it out or sing it while concentrating on feeling the underlying beat. When you can do that, it's time to do it at the piano



    Ofcourse while sightreading you can't take out your pencil to write on your score but if you do this regularly it becomes second nature and you will be able to 'see' these beats and their subdivisions instantly, when you see a complicated bar.






    share|improve this answer






























      4














      Try to start recognising common groupings of rhythmic values as patterns in their own right. This is a bit like moving away from reading one letter at a time when learning English to being able to recognise a whole word almost instantaneously in a single operation.



      The way that halving a note value is often just a question of adding another beam or flag means that a crotchet followed by two quavers can be recognised as having the same duration relationships as a quaver followed by two semiquavers - so the patterns you learn can translate to longer and shorter levels of note duration.






      share|improve this answer


















      • 1





        Yes, I learned to read music as an adult and this worked for me. Learn a particular pattern in one piece and you'll tend to spot when it comes up in another. Tap the rhythms on a table before complicating things with playing notes. Use 'air' beats for off-beats (or silent on-beats). When you listen to a recording then follow it on the sheet music and tap along on the page at the point you are hearing.

        – chasly from UK
        Mar 7 at 14:49



















      1














      The There are time inducations as andante, adagio etc. and even beats/min. advices.



      So you can look up how many beats/min. an allegro ma no troppo would be and count the bars you have to play per minute.



      But your problem seems to be a quite different one. All the time indications concerning the speed of music piece are only propositions to me. Sometimes I missuse a piece as a technical practice and play it in double
      speed. Or even in performance I conduct it very slowly not to make angry the band members or the congregation, but the feed back can be complaining.



      Some piano music I will never be able to play in the “correct” speed but I don’t mind at all. My goal is not to become perfect or be an virtuous but I would like to enjoy as many compositions as possible and improve my technic, my understanding of harmony and sight reading. I will be able to accompany a group or an ensemble or myself when singing and I know I will never be perfect. Perhaps this will help you to consider and reflect your own playing.



      So if you are asking about this understanding of time - just compare different performances and listen to the different duration by different interpretations.



      But if your problem is concerning the time signature and the rhythm you have to look up this SE site under sight reading and rhythm as there are already many answers and advices.






      share|improve this answer

























      • Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean the tempo-- I meant the rhythm, if that's the right word, correctly spacing out quarter notes, half notes, eighth notes, etc. Apologize for the lack of clarity.

        – temporary_user_name
        Mar 7 at 19:57












      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "240"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81111%2fhow-to-develop-an-internal-intuition-for-note-timings%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      1














      Practice a variety of two part rhythms.



      • use a metronome

      • count out load while practicing (video on the psychology of counting out loud)

      • use a good counting system (rhythm syllables like Kodaly) to develop awareness of the beat versus subdivisions

      • pay attention to both composite rhythms and the individual rhtyhms, make sure the accents in each individual rhythm is correct

      There are a lot of rhythm practice books available, or you could make your own exercises.



      I didn't like the books I was finding - the rhythms seemed too irregular - so I made my own cards for simple & compound meters with also syncopation and polyrhythms. I made sure the counting syllables were clear...



      enter image description here



      ...if you can't find a published resource for your needs, make your own.




      A general though about sight reading:




      I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin...



      I've listened to it many times while reading the music so I know exactly what it should sound like




      It sounds like you are reading that 19th century repertoire, but not sight-reading it. That's fine, but it's really two different kinds of reading.



      I don't know that you have only difficult material from those composers, but I suspect that may be the case.



      You want to make sure you are sight reading the right level of music. With that 19th century repertoire a lot was not meant for sight reading but virtuosic display.



      • for 19th century style try finding simpler, shorter stuff like Schumann's Album for the Young, Schubert's keyboard dances, Burgmuller op.100, piano accompaniment parts from song albums might offer good material too. But dances sets and collections for young/beginners are a good place to start looking.

      • 18th century classical style, Czerny is a great source. Lot of people dump on Czerny, but look at the Recreations, Progressive Studies, etc they offer lots of charming, modest pieces. Also typical keyboard instruction manuals from this time follow a format of music fundamentals and basic fingerings followed by a collection of fairly easy pieces. Clementi's Art of Piano Forte Playing is a good example. Also, get L. Mozart's Nannerl Notebook and W.A. Mozart's London Sketchbook. Those are filled with tons of short pieces.

      • 18th century baroque style, get the Bach notebooks for Wilhelm Friedman and Anna Magdalena. Also, the Bach 371 Harmonized Chorales for keyboard are sight readable. There are endless dance suites and dance sets in this period. Telemann's 36 Keyboard Fantasias, Handel's sonatinas, and other small scale early sonata forms could be good sight reading material too.

      A huge amount of the material above is available at http://imslp.org.



      You probably can see there is a theme of dance forms. The important thing about that genre is much of it was meant for amateur players and home entertainment. Most of it wasn't virtuosic concert material. I think a lot of it was meant to be read and played without a huge amount of preparation. That kind of stuff should make good sight reading material.



      Volume is important. Get enough material that you can't memorize it.




      Simpler music isn't really much fun, that's why. And I have succeeded at learning many such pieces despite my limitations




      This may be an impasse. If you enjoy the technical challenge of difficult music, then sight reading doesn't seem like a type of playing to satisfy you. "To each his own" I suppose. You don't have to sight read if you don't like to do it.



      But I think you want to make a clear distinction what sight reading is about. I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees with me, but people don't sight read stuff like Debussy's Preludes or Liszt's Etudes. Sight reading is for smaller scale stuff of modest difficulty not virtuosic display.






      share|improve this answer



























        1














        Practice a variety of two part rhythms.



        • use a metronome

        • count out load while practicing (video on the psychology of counting out loud)

        • use a good counting system (rhythm syllables like Kodaly) to develop awareness of the beat versus subdivisions

        • pay attention to both composite rhythms and the individual rhtyhms, make sure the accents in each individual rhythm is correct

        There are a lot of rhythm practice books available, or you could make your own exercises.



        I didn't like the books I was finding - the rhythms seemed too irregular - so I made my own cards for simple & compound meters with also syncopation and polyrhythms. I made sure the counting syllables were clear...



        enter image description here



        ...if you can't find a published resource for your needs, make your own.




        A general though about sight reading:




        I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin...



        I've listened to it many times while reading the music so I know exactly what it should sound like




        It sounds like you are reading that 19th century repertoire, but not sight-reading it. That's fine, but it's really two different kinds of reading.



        I don't know that you have only difficult material from those composers, but I suspect that may be the case.



        You want to make sure you are sight reading the right level of music. With that 19th century repertoire a lot was not meant for sight reading but virtuosic display.



        • for 19th century style try finding simpler, shorter stuff like Schumann's Album for the Young, Schubert's keyboard dances, Burgmuller op.100, piano accompaniment parts from song albums might offer good material too. But dances sets and collections for young/beginners are a good place to start looking.

        • 18th century classical style, Czerny is a great source. Lot of people dump on Czerny, but look at the Recreations, Progressive Studies, etc they offer lots of charming, modest pieces. Also typical keyboard instruction manuals from this time follow a format of music fundamentals and basic fingerings followed by a collection of fairly easy pieces. Clementi's Art of Piano Forte Playing is a good example. Also, get L. Mozart's Nannerl Notebook and W.A. Mozart's London Sketchbook. Those are filled with tons of short pieces.

        • 18th century baroque style, get the Bach notebooks for Wilhelm Friedman and Anna Magdalena. Also, the Bach 371 Harmonized Chorales for keyboard are sight readable. There are endless dance suites and dance sets in this period. Telemann's 36 Keyboard Fantasias, Handel's sonatinas, and other small scale early sonata forms could be good sight reading material too.

        A huge amount of the material above is available at http://imslp.org.



        You probably can see there is a theme of dance forms. The important thing about that genre is much of it was meant for amateur players and home entertainment. Most of it wasn't virtuosic concert material. I think a lot of it was meant to be read and played without a huge amount of preparation. That kind of stuff should make good sight reading material.



        Volume is important. Get enough material that you can't memorize it.




        Simpler music isn't really much fun, that's why. And I have succeeded at learning many such pieces despite my limitations




        This may be an impasse. If you enjoy the technical challenge of difficult music, then sight reading doesn't seem like a type of playing to satisfy you. "To each his own" I suppose. You don't have to sight read if you don't like to do it.



        But I think you want to make a clear distinction what sight reading is about. I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees with me, but people don't sight read stuff like Debussy's Preludes or Liszt's Etudes. Sight reading is for smaller scale stuff of modest difficulty not virtuosic display.






        share|improve this answer

























          1












          1








          1







          Practice a variety of two part rhythms.



          • use a metronome

          • count out load while practicing (video on the psychology of counting out loud)

          • use a good counting system (rhythm syllables like Kodaly) to develop awareness of the beat versus subdivisions

          • pay attention to both composite rhythms and the individual rhtyhms, make sure the accents in each individual rhythm is correct

          There are a lot of rhythm practice books available, or you could make your own exercises.



          I didn't like the books I was finding - the rhythms seemed too irregular - so I made my own cards for simple & compound meters with also syncopation and polyrhythms. I made sure the counting syllables were clear...



          enter image description here



          ...if you can't find a published resource for your needs, make your own.




          A general though about sight reading:




          I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin...



          I've listened to it many times while reading the music so I know exactly what it should sound like




          It sounds like you are reading that 19th century repertoire, but not sight-reading it. That's fine, but it's really two different kinds of reading.



          I don't know that you have only difficult material from those composers, but I suspect that may be the case.



          You want to make sure you are sight reading the right level of music. With that 19th century repertoire a lot was not meant for sight reading but virtuosic display.



          • for 19th century style try finding simpler, shorter stuff like Schumann's Album for the Young, Schubert's keyboard dances, Burgmuller op.100, piano accompaniment parts from song albums might offer good material too. But dances sets and collections for young/beginners are a good place to start looking.

          • 18th century classical style, Czerny is a great source. Lot of people dump on Czerny, but look at the Recreations, Progressive Studies, etc they offer lots of charming, modest pieces. Also typical keyboard instruction manuals from this time follow a format of music fundamentals and basic fingerings followed by a collection of fairly easy pieces. Clementi's Art of Piano Forte Playing is a good example. Also, get L. Mozart's Nannerl Notebook and W.A. Mozart's London Sketchbook. Those are filled with tons of short pieces.

          • 18th century baroque style, get the Bach notebooks for Wilhelm Friedman and Anna Magdalena. Also, the Bach 371 Harmonized Chorales for keyboard are sight readable. There are endless dance suites and dance sets in this period. Telemann's 36 Keyboard Fantasias, Handel's sonatinas, and other small scale early sonata forms could be good sight reading material too.

          A huge amount of the material above is available at http://imslp.org.



          You probably can see there is a theme of dance forms. The important thing about that genre is much of it was meant for amateur players and home entertainment. Most of it wasn't virtuosic concert material. I think a lot of it was meant to be read and played without a huge amount of preparation. That kind of stuff should make good sight reading material.



          Volume is important. Get enough material that you can't memorize it.




          Simpler music isn't really much fun, that's why. And I have succeeded at learning many such pieces despite my limitations




          This may be an impasse. If you enjoy the technical challenge of difficult music, then sight reading doesn't seem like a type of playing to satisfy you. "To each his own" I suppose. You don't have to sight read if you don't like to do it.



          But I think you want to make a clear distinction what sight reading is about. I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees with me, but people don't sight read stuff like Debussy's Preludes or Liszt's Etudes. Sight reading is for smaller scale stuff of modest difficulty not virtuosic display.






          share|improve this answer













          Practice a variety of two part rhythms.



          • use a metronome

          • count out load while practicing (video on the psychology of counting out loud)

          • use a good counting system (rhythm syllables like Kodaly) to develop awareness of the beat versus subdivisions

          • pay attention to both composite rhythms and the individual rhtyhms, make sure the accents in each individual rhythm is correct

          There are a lot of rhythm practice books available, or you could make your own exercises.



          I didn't like the books I was finding - the rhythms seemed too irregular - so I made my own cards for simple & compound meters with also syncopation and polyrhythms. I made sure the counting syllables were clear...



          enter image description here



          ...if you can't find a published resource for your needs, make your own.




          A general though about sight reading:




          I mostly play classical/romantic music like Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Liszt, and Scriabin...



          I've listened to it many times while reading the music so I know exactly what it should sound like




          It sounds like you are reading that 19th century repertoire, but not sight-reading it. That's fine, but it's really two different kinds of reading.



          I don't know that you have only difficult material from those composers, but I suspect that may be the case.



          You want to make sure you are sight reading the right level of music. With that 19th century repertoire a lot was not meant for sight reading but virtuosic display.



          • for 19th century style try finding simpler, shorter stuff like Schumann's Album for the Young, Schubert's keyboard dances, Burgmuller op.100, piano accompaniment parts from song albums might offer good material too. But dances sets and collections for young/beginners are a good place to start looking.

          • 18th century classical style, Czerny is a great source. Lot of people dump on Czerny, but look at the Recreations, Progressive Studies, etc they offer lots of charming, modest pieces. Also typical keyboard instruction manuals from this time follow a format of music fundamentals and basic fingerings followed by a collection of fairly easy pieces. Clementi's Art of Piano Forte Playing is a good example. Also, get L. Mozart's Nannerl Notebook and W.A. Mozart's London Sketchbook. Those are filled with tons of short pieces.

          • 18th century baroque style, get the Bach notebooks for Wilhelm Friedman and Anna Magdalena. Also, the Bach 371 Harmonized Chorales for keyboard are sight readable. There are endless dance suites and dance sets in this period. Telemann's 36 Keyboard Fantasias, Handel's sonatinas, and other small scale early sonata forms could be good sight reading material too.

          A huge amount of the material above is available at http://imslp.org.



          You probably can see there is a theme of dance forms. The important thing about that genre is much of it was meant for amateur players and home entertainment. Most of it wasn't virtuosic concert material. I think a lot of it was meant to be read and played without a huge amount of preparation. That kind of stuff should make good sight reading material.



          Volume is important. Get enough material that you can't memorize it.




          Simpler music isn't really much fun, that's why. And I have succeeded at learning many such pieces despite my limitations




          This may be an impasse. If you enjoy the technical challenge of difficult music, then sight reading doesn't seem like a type of playing to satisfy you. "To each his own" I suppose. You don't have to sight read if you don't like to do it.



          But I think you want to make a clear distinction what sight reading is about. I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees with me, but people don't sight read stuff like Debussy's Preludes or Liszt's Etudes. Sight reading is for smaller scale stuff of modest difficulty not virtuosic display.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Mar 8 at 16:53









          Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

          11.4k742




          11.4k742





















              5














              Counting while playing is already the way to go! Be patient and don't give up. It will come.



              I think what will help you is practicing to identify the big beats in a rhytmically complicated measure. Do it often just with the score, away from the piano. There's no shame in indicating with a small pencil line where every beat falls, for complicated rhythms you can even indicate the smaller subdivisions. When you know how the rhythm is built you can tap it out or sing it while concentrating on feeling the underlying beat. When you can do that, it's time to do it at the piano



              Ofcourse while sightreading you can't take out your pencil to write on your score but if you do this regularly it becomes second nature and you will be able to 'see' these beats and their subdivisions instantly, when you see a complicated bar.






              share|improve this answer



























                5














                Counting while playing is already the way to go! Be patient and don't give up. It will come.



                I think what will help you is practicing to identify the big beats in a rhytmically complicated measure. Do it often just with the score, away from the piano. There's no shame in indicating with a small pencil line where every beat falls, for complicated rhythms you can even indicate the smaller subdivisions. When you know how the rhythm is built you can tap it out or sing it while concentrating on feeling the underlying beat. When you can do that, it's time to do it at the piano



                Ofcourse while sightreading you can't take out your pencil to write on your score but if you do this regularly it becomes second nature and you will be able to 'see' these beats and their subdivisions instantly, when you see a complicated bar.






                share|improve this answer

























                  5












                  5








                  5







                  Counting while playing is already the way to go! Be patient and don't give up. It will come.



                  I think what will help you is practicing to identify the big beats in a rhytmically complicated measure. Do it often just with the score, away from the piano. There's no shame in indicating with a small pencil line where every beat falls, for complicated rhythms you can even indicate the smaller subdivisions. When you know how the rhythm is built you can tap it out or sing it while concentrating on feeling the underlying beat. When you can do that, it's time to do it at the piano



                  Ofcourse while sightreading you can't take out your pencil to write on your score but if you do this regularly it becomes second nature and you will be able to 'see' these beats and their subdivisions instantly, when you see a complicated bar.






                  share|improve this answer













                  Counting while playing is already the way to go! Be patient and don't give up. It will come.



                  I think what will help you is practicing to identify the big beats in a rhytmically complicated measure. Do it often just with the score, away from the piano. There's no shame in indicating with a small pencil line where every beat falls, for complicated rhythms you can even indicate the smaller subdivisions. When you know how the rhythm is built you can tap it out or sing it while concentrating on feeling the underlying beat. When you can do that, it's time to do it at the piano



                  Ofcourse while sightreading you can't take out your pencil to write on your score but if you do this regularly it becomes second nature and you will be able to 'see' these beats and their subdivisions instantly, when you see a complicated bar.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Mar 7 at 9:18









                  Tim HTim H

                  3,07321944




                  3,07321944





















                      4














                      Try to start recognising common groupings of rhythmic values as patterns in their own right. This is a bit like moving away from reading one letter at a time when learning English to being able to recognise a whole word almost instantaneously in a single operation.



                      The way that halving a note value is often just a question of adding another beam or flag means that a crotchet followed by two quavers can be recognised as having the same duration relationships as a quaver followed by two semiquavers - so the patterns you learn can translate to longer and shorter levels of note duration.






                      share|improve this answer


















                      • 1





                        Yes, I learned to read music as an adult and this worked for me. Learn a particular pattern in one piece and you'll tend to spot when it comes up in another. Tap the rhythms on a table before complicating things with playing notes. Use 'air' beats for off-beats (or silent on-beats). When you listen to a recording then follow it on the sheet music and tap along on the page at the point you are hearing.

                        – chasly from UK
                        Mar 7 at 14:49
















                      4














                      Try to start recognising common groupings of rhythmic values as patterns in their own right. This is a bit like moving away from reading one letter at a time when learning English to being able to recognise a whole word almost instantaneously in a single operation.



                      The way that halving a note value is often just a question of adding another beam or flag means that a crotchet followed by two quavers can be recognised as having the same duration relationships as a quaver followed by two semiquavers - so the patterns you learn can translate to longer and shorter levels of note duration.






                      share|improve this answer


















                      • 1





                        Yes, I learned to read music as an adult and this worked for me. Learn a particular pattern in one piece and you'll tend to spot when it comes up in another. Tap the rhythms on a table before complicating things with playing notes. Use 'air' beats for off-beats (or silent on-beats). When you listen to a recording then follow it on the sheet music and tap along on the page at the point you are hearing.

                        – chasly from UK
                        Mar 7 at 14:49














                      4












                      4








                      4







                      Try to start recognising common groupings of rhythmic values as patterns in their own right. This is a bit like moving away from reading one letter at a time when learning English to being able to recognise a whole word almost instantaneously in a single operation.



                      The way that halving a note value is often just a question of adding another beam or flag means that a crotchet followed by two quavers can be recognised as having the same duration relationships as a quaver followed by two semiquavers - so the patterns you learn can translate to longer and shorter levels of note duration.






                      share|improve this answer













                      Try to start recognising common groupings of rhythmic values as patterns in their own right. This is a bit like moving away from reading one letter at a time when learning English to being able to recognise a whole word almost instantaneously in a single operation.



                      The way that halving a note value is often just a question of adding another beam or flag means that a crotchet followed by two quavers can be recognised as having the same duration relationships as a quaver followed by two semiquavers - so the patterns you learn can translate to longer and shorter levels of note duration.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Mar 7 at 10:51









                      topo mortotopo morto

                      27k246108




                      27k246108







                      • 1





                        Yes, I learned to read music as an adult and this worked for me. Learn a particular pattern in one piece and you'll tend to spot when it comes up in another. Tap the rhythms on a table before complicating things with playing notes. Use 'air' beats for off-beats (or silent on-beats). When you listen to a recording then follow it on the sheet music and tap along on the page at the point you are hearing.

                        – chasly from UK
                        Mar 7 at 14:49













                      • 1





                        Yes, I learned to read music as an adult and this worked for me. Learn a particular pattern in one piece and you'll tend to spot when it comes up in another. Tap the rhythms on a table before complicating things with playing notes. Use 'air' beats for off-beats (or silent on-beats). When you listen to a recording then follow it on the sheet music and tap along on the page at the point you are hearing.

                        – chasly from UK
                        Mar 7 at 14:49








                      1




                      1





                      Yes, I learned to read music as an adult and this worked for me. Learn a particular pattern in one piece and you'll tend to spot when it comes up in another. Tap the rhythms on a table before complicating things with playing notes. Use 'air' beats for off-beats (or silent on-beats). When you listen to a recording then follow it on the sheet music and tap along on the page at the point you are hearing.

                      – chasly from UK
                      Mar 7 at 14:49






                      Yes, I learned to read music as an adult and this worked for me. Learn a particular pattern in one piece and you'll tend to spot when it comes up in another. Tap the rhythms on a table before complicating things with playing notes. Use 'air' beats for off-beats (or silent on-beats). When you listen to a recording then follow it on the sheet music and tap along on the page at the point you are hearing.

                      – chasly from UK
                      Mar 7 at 14:49












                      1














                      The There are time inducations as andante, adagio etc. and even beats/min. advices.



                      So you can look up how many beats/min. an allegro ma no troppo would be and count the bars you have to play per minute.



                      But your problem seems to be a quite different one. All the time indications concerning the speed of music piece are only propositions to me. Sometimes I missuse a piece as a technical practice and play it in double
                      speed. Or even in performance I conduct it very slowly not to make angry the band members or the congregation, but the feed back can be complaining.



                      Some piano music I will never be able to play in the “correct” speed but I don’t mind at all. My goal is not to become perfect or be an virtuous but I would like to enjoy as many compositions as possible and improve my technic, my understanding of harmony and sight reading. I will be able to accompany a group or an ensemble or myself when singing and I know I will never be perfect. Perhaps this will help you to consider and reflect your own playing.



                      So if you are asking about this understanding of time - just compare different performances and listen to the different duration by different interpretations.



                      But if your problem is concerning the time signature and the rhythm you have to look up this SE site under sight reading and rhythm as there are already many answers and advices.






                      share|improve this answer

























                      • Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean the tempo-- I meant the rhythm, if that's the right word, correctly spacing out quarter notes, half notes, eighth notes, etc. Apologize for the lack of clarity.

                        – temporary_user_name
                        Mar 7 at 19:57
















                      1














                      The There are time inducations as andante, adagio etc. and even beats/min. advices.



                      So you can look up how many beats/min. an allegro ma no troppo would be and count the bars you have to play per minute.



                      But your problem seems to be a quite different one. All the time indications concerning the speed of music piece are only propositions to me. Sometimes I missuse a piece as a technical practice and play it in double
                      speed. Or even in performance I conduct it very slowly not to make angry the band members or the congregation, but the feed back can be complaining.



                      Some piano music I will never be able to play in the “correct” speed but I don’t mind at all. My goal is not to become perfect or be an virtuous but I would like to enjoy as many compositions as possible and improve my technic, my understanding of harmony and sight reading. I will be able to accompany a group or an ensemble or myself when singing and I know I will never be perfect. Perhaps this will help you to consider and reflect your own playing.



                      So if you are asking about this understanding of time - just compare different performances and listen to the different duration by different interpretations.



                      But if your problem is concerning the time signature and the rhythm you have to look up this SE site under sight reading and rhythm as there are already many answers and advices.






                      share|improve this answer

























                      • Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean the tempo-- I meant the rhythm, if that's the right word, correctly spacing out quarter notes, half notes, eighth notes, etc. Apologize for the lack of clarity.

                        – temporary_user_name
                        Mar 7 at 19:57














                      1












                      1








                      1







                      The There are time inducations as andante, adagio etc. and even beats/min. advices.



                      So you can look up how many beats/min. an allegro ma no troppo would be and count the bars you have to play per minute.



                      But your problem seems to be a quite different one. All the time indications concerning the speed of music piece are only propositions to me. Sometimes I missuse a piece as a technical practice and play it in double
                      speed. Or even in performance I conduct it very slowly not to make angry the band members or the congregation, but the feed back can be complaining.



                      Some piano music I will never be able to play in the “correct” speed but I don’t mind at all. My goal is not to become perfect or be an virtuous but I would like to enjoy as many compositions as possible and improve my technic, my understanding of harmony and sight reading. I will be able to accompany a group or an ensemble or myself when singing and I know I will never be perfect. Perhaps this will help you to consider and reflect your own playing.



                      So if you are asking about this understanding of time - just compare different performances and listen to the different duration by different interpretations.



                      But if your problem is concerning the time signature and the rhythm you have to look up this SE site under sight reading and rhythm as there are already many answers and advices.






                      share|improve this answer















                      The There are time inducations as andante, adagio etc. and even beats/min. advices.



                      So you can look up how many beats/min. an allegro ma no troppo would be and count the bars you have to play per minute.



                      But your problem seems to be a quite different one. All the time indications concerning the speed of music piece are only propositions to me. Sometimes I missuse a piece as a technical practice and play it in double
                      speed. Or even in performance I conduct it very slowly not to make angry the band members or the congregation, but the feed back can be complaining.



                      Some piano music I will never be able to play in the “correct” speed but I don’t mind at all. My goal is not to become perfect or be an virtuous but I would like to enjoy as many compositions as possible and improve my technic, my understanding of harmony and sight reading. I will be able to accompany a group or an ensemble or myself when singing and I know I will never be perfect. Perhaps this will help you to consider and reflect your own playing.



                      So if you are asking about this understanding of time - just compare different performances and listen to the different duration by different interpretations.



                      But if your problem is concerning the time signature and the rhythm you have to look up this SE site under sight reading and rhythm as there are already many answers and advices.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Mar 7 at 15:38

























                      answered Mar 7 at 9:41









                      Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli

                      4,262220




                      4,262220












                      • Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean the tempo-- I meant the rhythm, if that's the right word, correctly spacing out quarter notes, half notes, eighth notes, etc. Apologize for the lack of clarity.

                        – temporary_user_name
                        Mar 7 at 19:57


















                      • Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean the tempo-- I meant the rhythm, if that's the right word, correctly spacing out quarter notes, half notes, eighth notes, etc. Apologize for the lack of clarity.

                        – temporary_user_name
                        Mar 7 at 19:57

















                      Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean the tempo-- I meant the rhythm, if that's the right word, correctly spacing out quarter notes, half notes, eighth notes, etc. Apologize for the lack of clarity.

                      – temporary_user_name
                      Mar 7 at 19:57






                      Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean the tempo-- I meant the rhythm, if that's the right word, correctly spacing out quarter notes, half notes, eighth notes, etc. Apologize for the lack of clarity.

                      – temporary_user_name
                      Mar 7 at 19:57


















                      draft saved

                      draft discarded
















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81111%2fhow-to-develop-an-internal-intuition-for-note-timings%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown






                      Popular posts from this blog

                      How to check contact read email or not when send email to Individual?

                      Displaying single band from multi-band raster using QGIS

                      How many registers does an x86_64 CPU actually have?