What is wrong with the followig proof that Z is isomorphic to ZxZ

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Since



$ G =( prod_1^infty mathbbZ )times mathbbZ times mathbbZ cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ $,



by taking quotients we get



$mathbbZ times Z cong G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$.



Therefore



$mathbbZ cong mathbbZ times Z$.



But $mathbbZ$ is indecomposable! What's wrong with above proof?










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  • You are not working within a field structure. This you can't use cancellation.
    – Alephnull
    1 hour ago










  • What's so special about $mathbb Z$? Haven't you just proved $Gcong Gtimes G$ for every group $G$? If $G$ is a group of order $n$, does that mean that $n^2=n$ for every $n$?
    – bof
    1 hour ago










  • Possible duplicate of Cancellation Law for Direct Sums - What is wrong with this argument?
    – Eric Wofsey
    1 hour ago










  • The isomorphism from $(prod mathbbZ)timesmathbbZtimesmathbbZ$ to $(prodmathbbZ)timesmathbbZ$ does not map $(prodmathbbZ)times0times0$ to $(prodmathbbZ)times0$; so you do not know that you are taking quotients modulo "the same thing"; that is, you have an isomorphism $phicolon Gto K$; and subgroup $Ntriangleleft G$ and $Mtriangleleft K$ with $Ncong M$; but unless $phi(N)=M$, you cannot use $phi$ to conclude $G/Ncong K/M$; yet you are trying to do so here.
    – Arturo Magidin
    46 mins ago











  • This is basically the same as arguing $infty +1 = infty$; subtracting $infty$ from both sides, $1=0$.
    – Jair Taylor
    7 mins ago














up vote
3
down vote

favorite












Since



$ G =( prod_1^infty mathbbZ )times mathbbZ times mathbbZ cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ $,



by taking quotients we get



$mathbbZ times Z cong G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$.



Therefore



$mathbbZ cong mathbbZ times Z$.



But $mathbbZ$ is indecomposable! What's wrong with above proof?










share|cite|improve this question





















  • You are not working within a field structure. This you can't use cancellation.
    – Alephnull
    1 hour ago










  • What's so special about $mathbb Z$? Haven't you just proved $Gcong Gtimes G$ for every group $G$? If $G$ is a group of order $n$, does that mean that $n^2=n$ for every $n$?
    – bof
    1 hour ago










  • Possible duplicate of Cancellation Law for Direct Sums - What is wrong with this argument?
    – Eric Wofsey
    1 hour ago










  • The isomorphism from $(prod mathbbZ)timesmathbbZtimesmathbbZ$ to $(prodmathbbZ)timesmathbbZ$ does not map $(prodmathbbZ)times0times0$ to $(prodmathbbZ)times0$; so you do not know that you are taking quotients modulo "the same thing"; that is, you have an isomorphism $phicolon Gto K$; and subgroup $Ntriangleleft G$ and $Mtriangleleft K$ with $Ncong M$; but unless $phi(N)=M$, you cannot use $phi$ to conclude $G/Ncong K/M$; yet you are trying to do so here.
    – Arturo Magidin
    46 mins ago











  • This is basically the same as arguing $infty +1 = infty$; subtracting $infty$ from both sides, $1=0$.
    – Jair Taylor
    7 mins ago












up vote
3
down vote

favorite









up vote
3
down vote

favorite











Since



$ G =( prod_1^infty mathbbZ )times mathbbZ times mathbbZ cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ $,



by taking quotients we get



$mathbbZ times Z cong G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$.



Therefore



$mathbbZ cong mathbbZ times Z$.



But $mathbbZ$ is indecomposable! What's wrong with above proof?










share|cite|improve this question













Since



$ G =( prod_1^infty mathbbZ )times mathbbZ times mathbbZ cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ $,



by taking quotients we get



$mathbbZ times Z cong G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$.



Therefore



$mathbbZ cong mathbbZ times Z$.



But $mathbbZ$ is indecomposable! What's wrong with above proof?







group-theory






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 1 hour ago









student

446




446











  • You are not working within a field structure. This you can't use cancellation.
    – Alephnull
    1 hour ago










  • What's so special about $mathbb Z$? Haven't you just proved $Gcong Gtimes G$ for every group $G$? If $G$ is a group of order $n$, does that mean that $n^2=n$ for every $n$?
    – bof
    1 hour ago










  • Possible duplicate of Cancellation Law for Direct Sums - What is wrong with this argument?
    – Eric Wofsey
    1 hour ago










  • The isomorphism from $(prod mathbbZ)timesmathbbZtimesmathbbZ$ to $(prodmathbbZ)timesmathbbZ$ does not map $(prodmathbbZ)times0times0$ to $(prodmathbbZ)times0$; so you do not know that you are taking quotients modulo "the same thing"; that is, you have an isomorphism $phicolon Gto K$; and subgroup $Ntriangleleft G$ and $Mtriangleleft K$ with $Ncong M$; but unless $phi(N)=M$, you cannot use $phi$ to conclude $G/Ncong K/M$; yet you are trying to do so here.
    – Arturo Magidin
    46 mins ago











  • This is basically the same as arguing $infty +1 = infty$; subtracting $infty$ from both sides, $1=0$.
    – Jair Taylor
    7 mins ago
















  • You are not working within a field structure. This you can't use cancellation.
    – Alephnull
    1 hour ago










  • What's so special about $mathbb Z$? Haven't you just proved $Gcong Gtimes G$ for every group $G$? If $G$ is a group of order $n$, does that mean that $n^2=n$ for every $n$?
    – bof
    1 hour ago










  • Possible duplicate of Cancellation Law for Direct Sums - What is wrong with this argument?
    – Eric Wofsey
    1 hour ago










  • The isomorphism from $(prod mathbbZ)timesmathbbZtimesmathbbZ$ to $(prodmathbbZ)timesmathbbZ$ does not map $(prodmathbbZ)times0times0$ to $(prodmathbbZ)times0$; so you do not know that you are taking quotients modulo "the same thing"; that is, you have an isomorphism $phicolon Gto K$; and subgroup $Ntriangleleft G$ and $Mtriangleleft K$ with $Ncong M$; but unless $phi(N)=M$, you cannot use $phi$ to conclude $G/Ncong K/M$; yet you are trying to do so here.
    – Arturo Magidin
    46 mins ago











  • This is basically the same as arguing $infty +1 = infty$; subtracting $infty$ from both sides, $1=0$.
    – Jair Taylor
    7 mins ago















You are not working within a field structure. This you can't use cancellation.
– Alephnull
1 hour ago




You are not working within a field structure. This you can't use cancellation.
– Alephnull
1 hour ago












What's so special about $mathbb Z$? Haven't you just proved $Gcong Gtimes G$ for every group $G$? If $G$ is a group of order $n$, does that mean that $n^2=n$ for every $n$?
– bof
1 hour ago




What's so special about $mathbb Z$? Haven't you just proved $Gcong Gtimes G$ for every group $G$? If $G$ is a group of order $n$, does that mean that $n^2=n$ for every $n$?
– bof
1 hour ago












Possible duplicate of Cancellation Law for Direct Sums - What is wrong with this argument?
– Eric Wofsey
1 hour ago




Possible duplicate of Cancellation Law for Direct Sums - What is wrong with this argument?
– Eric Wofsey
1 hour ago












The isomorphism from $(prod mathbbZ)timesmathbbZtimesmathbbZ$ to $(prodmathbbZ)timesmathbbZ$ does not map $(prodmathbbZ)times0times0$ to $(prodmathbbZ)times0$; so you do not know that you are taking quotients modulo "the same thing"; that is, you have an isomorphism $phicolon Gto K$; and subgroup $Ntriangleleft G$ and $Mtriangleleft K$ with $Ncong M$; but unless $phi(N)=M$, you cannot use $phi$ to conclude $G/Ncong K/M$; yet you are trying to do so here.
– Arturo Magidin
46 mins ago





The isomorphism from $(prod mathbbZ)timesmathbbZtimesmathbbZ$ to $(prodmathbbZ)timesmathbbZ$ does not map $(prodmathbbZ)times0times0$ to $(prodmathbbZ)times0$; so you do not know that you are taking quotients modulo "the same thing"; that is, you have an isomorphism $phicolon Gto K$; and subgroup $Ntriangleleft G$ and $Mtriangleleft K$ with $Ncong M$; but unless $phi(N)=M$, you cannot use $phi$ to conclude $G/Ncong K/M$; yet you are trying to do so here.
– Arturo Magidin
46 mins ago













This is basically the same as arguing $infty +1 = infty$; subtracting $infty$ from both sides, $1=0$.
– Jair Taylor
7 mins ago




This is basically the same as arguing $infty +1 = infty$; subtracting $infty$ from both sides, $1=0$.
– Jair Taylor
7 mins ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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up vote
6
down vote













Quotienting by isomorphic copy need not preserve isomorphisms. For a simpler related example: $C_n=mathbbZ/nmathbbZ$ and $mmathbbZcong nmathbbZ$ for all $m,n>0$, but obviously the cyclic groups $C_m$ and $C_n$ are not isomorphic if $mneq n$.






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  • Quotient here is not by isomorphic copy. I am using the fact that factors are normal subgroups, and then using the first isomorphism theorem. The example you gave has no such product structure.
    – student
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    @student: If you are not using an isomorphic copy, then it is wrong to write $G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$, because you only have $G cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$, not $G = (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$
    – Eric Wofsey
    1 hour ago

















up vote
1
down vote













Your argument is based on the assumption that $G/N_1cong G/N_2$ follows from $N_1cong N_2$. Here is a simple example to show that this assumption is incorrect.



The non-isomorphic groups $mathbb Z_4$ and $mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$ are both homomorphic images of the group $G=mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_4$. Thus there are subgroups $N_1,N_2$ of $G$ such that $G/N_1congmathbb Z_4$ and $G/N_2congmathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$. The subgroups $N_1$ and $N_2$ are isomorphic, as both have order $2$; so $N_1cong N_2$ but $G/N_1notcong G/N_2$.






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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    6
    down vote













    Quotienting by isomorphic copy need not preserve isomorphisms. For a simpler related example: $C_n=mathbbZ/nmathbbZ$ and $mmathbbZcong nmathbbZ$ for all $m,n>0$, but obviously the cyclic groups $C_m$ and $C_n$ are not isomorphic if $mneq n$.






    share|cite|improve this answer




















    • Quotient here is not by isomorphic copy. I am using the fact that factors are normal subgroups, and then using the first isomorphism theorem. The example you gave has no such product structure.
      – student
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @student: If you are not using an isomorphic copy, then it is wrong to write $G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$, because you only have $G cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$, not $G = (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$
      – Eric Wofsey
      1 hour ago














    up vote
    6
    down vote













    Quotienting by isomorphic copy need not preserve isomorphisms. For a simpler related example: $C_n=mathbbZ/nmathbbZ$ and $mmathbbZcong nmathbbZ$ for all $m,n>0$, but obviously the cyclic groups $C_m$ and $C_n$ are not isomorphic if $mneq n$.






    share|cite|improve this answer




















    • Quotient here is not by isomorphic copy. I am using the fact that factors are normal subgroups, and then using the first isomorphism theorem. The example you gave has no such product structure.
      – student
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @student: If you are not using an isomorphic copy, then it is wrong to write $G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$, because you only have $G cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$, not $G = (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$
      – Eric Wofsey
      1 hour ago












    up vote
    6
    down vote










    up vote
    6
    down vote









    Quotienting by isomorphic copy need not preserve isomorphisms. For a simpler related example: $C_n=mathbbZ/nmathbbZ$ and $mmathbbZcong nmathbbZ$ for all $m,n>0$, but obviously the cyclic groups $C_m$ and $C_n$ are not isomorphic if $mneq n$.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    Quotienting by isomorphic copy need not preserve isomorphisms. For a simpler related example: $C_n=mathbbZ/nmathbbZ$ and $mmathbbZcong nmathbbZ$ for all $m,n>0$, but obviously the cyclic groups $C_m$ and $C_n$ are not isomorphic if $mneq n$.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 1 hour ago









    user10354138

    4,533422




    4,533422











    • Quotient here is not by isomorphic copy. I am using the fact that factors are normal subgroups, and then using the first isomorphism theorem. The example you gave has no such product structure.
      – student
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @student: If you are not using an isomorphic copy, then it is wrong to write $G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$, because you only have $G cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$, not $G = (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$
      – Eric Wofsey
      1 hour ago
















    • Quotient here is not by isomorphic copy. I am using the fact that factors are normal subgroups, and then using the first isomorphism theorem. The example you gave has no such product structure.
      – student
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      @student: If you are not using an isomorphic copy, then it is wrong to write $G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$, because you only have $G cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$, not $G = (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$
      – Eric Wofsey
      1 hour ago















    Quotient here is not by isomorphic copy. I am using the fact that factors are normal subgroups, and then using the first isomorphism theorem. The example you gave has no such product structure.
    – student
    1 hour ago




    Quotient here is not by isomorphic copy. I am using the fact that factors are normal subgroups, and then using the first isomorphism theorem. The example you gave has no such product structure.
    – student
    1 hour ago




    1




    1




    @student: If you are not using an isomorphic copy, then it is wrong to write $G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$, because you only have $G cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$, not $G = (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$
    – Eric Wofsey
    1 hour ago




    @student: If you are not using an isomorphic copy, then it is wrong to write $G/ prod_1^infty mathbbZ cong mathbbZ$, because you only have $G cong (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$, not $G = (prod_1^infty mathbbZ) times mathbbZ$
    – Eric Wofsey
    1 hour ago










    up vote
    1
    down vote













    Your argument is based on the assumption that $G/N_1cong G/N_2$ follows from $N_1cong N_2$. Here is a simple example to show that this assumption is incorrect.



    The non-isomorphic groups $mathbb Z_4$ and $mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$ are both homomorphic images of the group $G=mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_4$. Thus there are subgroups $N_1,N_2$ of $G$ such that $G/N_1congmathbb Z_4$ and $G/N_2congmathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$. The subgroups $N_1$ and $N_2$ are isomorphic, as both have order $2$; so $N_1cong N_2$ but $G/N_1notcong G/N_2$.






    share|cite|improve this answer
























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      Your argument is based on the assumption that $G/N_1cong G/N_2$ follows from $N_1cong N_2$. Here is a simple example to show that this assumption is incorrect.



      The non-isomorphic groups $mathbb Z_4$ and $mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$ are both homomorphic images of the group $G=mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_4$. Thus there are subgroups $N_1,N_2$ of $G$ such that $G/N_1congmathbb Z_4$ and $G/N_2congmathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$. The subgroups $N_1$ and $N_2$ are isomorphic, as both have order $2$; so $N_1cong N_2$ but $G/N_1notcong G/N_2$.






      share|cite|improve this answer






















        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        Your argument is based on the assumption that $G/N_1cong G/N_2$ follows from $N_1cong N_2$. Here is a simple example to show that this assumption is incorrect.



        The non-isomorphic groups $mathbb Z_4$ and $mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$ are both homomorphic images of the group $G=mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_4$. Thus there are subgroups $N_1,N_2$ of $G$ such that $G/N_1congmathbb Z_4$ and $G/N_2congmathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$. The subgroups $N_1$ and $N_2$ are isomorphic, as both have order $2$; so $N_1cong N_2$ but $G/N_1notcong G/N_2$.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        Your argument is based on the assumption that $G/N_1cong G/N_2$ follows from $N_1cong N_2$. Here is a simple example to show that this assumption is incorrect.



        The non-isomorphic groups $mathbb Z_4$ and $mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$ are both homomorphic images of the group $G=mathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_4$. Thus there are subgroups $N_1,N_2$ of $G$ such that $G/N_1congmathbb Z_4$ and $G/N_2congmathbb Z_2timesmathbb Z_2$. The subgroups $N_1$ and $N_2$ are isomorphic, as both have order $2$; so $N_1cong N_2$ but $G/N_1notcong G/N_2$.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 37 mins ago









        bof

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