Is the property of time a consequence of having mass?

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It's an abstract question, but I was thinking...



If photons don't experience the passage of time because they have no mass, is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?



To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed. I assume then the conclusion is wrong. Is it?



The conclusion seems analogous and as profound as the property of gravity being a result of mass distorting spacetime.










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  • "If photons don't experience the passage of time..." Why do you think this?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • They're massless?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • Sorry. Why do you think no mass means no "experience of time"?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • Ah, it's statement I've seen in several texts so I've taken it to be truth. Is that not the case?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • The OP has a point, light travels in a geodesic in which proper time is a constant, you could interpret that as photons experiencing no time.
    – Wolphram jonny
    5 hours ago














up vote
3
down vote

favorite












It's an abstract question, but I was thinking...



If photons don't experience the passage of time because they have no mass, is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?



To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed. I assume then the conclusion is wrong. Is it?



The conclusion seems analogous and as profound as the property of gravity being a result of mass distorting spacetime.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




TLV is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.



















  • "If photons don't experience the passage of time..." Why do you think this?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • They're massless?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • Sorry. Why do you think no mass means no "experience of time"?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • Ah, it's statement I've seen in several texts so I've taken it to be truth. Is that not the case?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • The OP has a point, light travels in a geodesic in which proper time is a constant, you could interpret that as photons experiencing no time.
    – Wolphram jonny
    5 hours ago












up vote
3
down vote

favorite









up vote
3
down vote

favorite











It's an abstract question, but I was thinking...



If photons don't experience the passage of time because they have no mass, is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?



To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed. I assume then the conclusion is wrong. Is it?



The conclusion seems analogous and as profound as the property of gravity being a result of mass distorting spacetime.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




TLV is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











It's an abstract question, but I was thinking...



If photons don't experience the passage of time because they have no mass, is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?



To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed. I assume then the conclusion is wrong. Is it?



The conclusion seems analogous and as profound as the property of gravity being a result of mass distorting spacetime.







special-relativity mass time inertial-frames popular-science






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New contributor




TLV is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question









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TLV is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









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edited 4 hours ago





















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TLV

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Check out our Code of Conduct.











  • "If photons don't experience the passage of time..." Why do you think this?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • They're massless?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • Sorry. Why do you think no mass means no "experience of time"?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • Ah, it's statement I've seen in several texts so I've taken it to be truth. Is that not the case?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • The OP has a point, light travels in a geodesic in which proper time is a constant, you could interpret that as photons experiencing no time.
    – Wolphram jonny
    5 hours ago
















  • "If photons don't experience the passage of time..." Why do you think this?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • They're massless?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • Sorry. Why do you think no mass means no "experience of time"?
    – Aaron Stevens
    6 hours ago










  • Ah, it's statement I've seen in several texts so I've taken it to be truth. Is that not the case?
    – TLV
    6 hours ago










  • The OP has a point, light travels in a geodesic in which proper time is a constant, you could interpret that as photons experiencing no time.
    – Wolphram jonny
    5 hours ago















"If photons don't experience the passage of time..." Why do you think this?
– Aaron Stevens
6 hours ago




"If photons don't experience the passage of time..." Why do you think this?
– Aaron Stevens
6 hours ago












They're massless?
– TLV
6 hours ago




They're massless?
– TLV
6 hours ago












Sorry. Why do you think no mass means no "experience of time"?
– Aaron Stevens
6 hours ago




Sorry. Why do you think no mass means no "experience of time"?
– Aaron Stevens
6 hours ago












Ah, it's statement I've seen in several texts so I've taken it to be truth. Is that not the case?
– TLV
6 hours ago




Ah, it's statement I've seen in several texts so I've taken it to be truth. Is that not the case?
– TLV
6 hours ago












The OP has a point, light travels in a geodesic in which proper time is a constant, you could interpret that as photons experiencing no time.
– Wolphram jonny
5 hours ago




The OP has a point, light travels in a geodesic in which proper time is a constant, you could interpret that as photons experiencing no time.
– Wolphram jonny
5 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote













I'm not sure where you're at in your studies, but you shouldn't accept anything as true just because it's in a book. You should convince yourself of it beyond any reasonable doubt. In the words of Boyle, "nothing by authority."



This is related to this question, but I do not suspect the OP here will get much from the solution there, so I reword it more simply:



In special relativity, light rays (or just call them photons) are called "null observers." Null observers, by definition, have no proper way of measuring time intervals. Conceptually, one measures time intervals in relativity by sending light signals between frames - but if you are traveling at light speed then that measurement is useless.



Perhaps this also helps for understanding "why null observers?"






share|cite|improve this answer



























    up vote
    1
    down vote













    It is true that photons do not experience proper time. On the other hand a photon can experience a series of events during its lifetime. Does that means that he experiences all the events at the same time? this does not seem plausible. In addition, you cannot define a reference frame that travels at c. Mixing all of this together, one possible conclusion could be that the experience of proper time in a non-reference frame is different than the experience of proper time in a reference frame, and thus we have no clue what the photon "experiences".






    share|cite|improve this answer



























      up vote
      1
      down vote














      To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed.




      If there were just massless fields (particles), it would still be the case that spacetime has 1 temporal and 3 spatial dimensions so, in this sense, time exists independently of mass.



      However, as Sir Roger Penrose has pointed out in his work on the Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC), when there are just massless (conformally invariant) entities, there is no way to 'build a clock' (or a ruler) and so the universe 'loses track of time' (and distance too).



      From Before the Big Bang: An Outrageous New Perspective and its Implications for Particle Physics




      Physically, we may think that again in the very remote
      future, the universe “forgets” time in the sense that there is no way
      to build a clock with just conformally invariant material. This
      is related to the fact that massless particles, in relativity
      theory, do not experience any passage of time. We might even
      say that to a massless particle, “eternity is no big deal”.







      share|cite|improve this answer



























        up vote
        0
        down vote














        is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?




        Yes, it is fair to say that as long as you are specifically speaking of proper time (which seems reasonable to say when speaking of “the property of time”).



        Proper time is an affine parameter for timelike worldlines, and only massive objects have timelike worldlines. Massless objects do have affine parameters, but they are not proper time.






        share|cite|improve this answer




















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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

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          active

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          up vote
          1
          down vote













          I'm not sure where you're at in your studies, but you shouldn't accept anything as true just because it's in a book. You should convince yourself of it beyond any reasonable doubt. In the words of Boyle, "nothing by authority."



          This is related to this question, but I do not suspect the OP here will get much from the solution there, so I reword it more simply:



          In special relativity, light rays (or just call them photons) are called "null observers." Null observers, by definition, have no proper way of measuring time intervals. Conceptually, one measures time intervals in relativity by sending light signals between frames - but if you are traveling at light speed then that measurement is useless.



          Perhaps this also helps for understanding "why null observers?"






          share|cite|improve this answer
























            up vote
            1
            down vote













            I'm not sure where you're at in your studies, but you shouldn't accept anything as true just because it's in a book. You should convince yourself of it beyond any reasonable doubt. In the words of Boyle, "nothing by authority."



            This is related to this question, but I do not suspect the OP here will get much from the solution there, so I reword it more simply:



            In special relativity, light rays (or just call them photons) are called "null observers." Null observers, by definition, have no proper way of measuring time intervals. Conceptually, one measures time intervals in relativity by sending light signals between frames - but if you are traveling at light speed then that measurement is useless.



            Perhaps this also helps for understanding "why null observers?"






            share|cite|improve this answer






















              up vote
              1
              down vote










              up vote
              1
              down vote









              I'm not sure where you're at in your studies, but you shouldn't accept anything as true just because it's in a book. You should convince yourself of it beyond any reasonable doubt. In the words of Boyle, "nothing by authority."



              This is related to this question, but I do not suspect the OP here will get much from the solution there, so I reword it more simply:



              In special relativity, light rays (or just call them photons) are called "null observers." Null observers, by definition, have no proper way of measuring time intervals. Conceptually, one measures time intervals in relativity by sending light signals between frames - but if you are traveling at light speed then that measurement is useless.



              Perhaps this also helps for understanding "why null observers?"






              share|cite|improve this answer












              I'm not sure where you're at in your studies, but you shouldn't accept anything as true just because it's in a book. You should convince yourself of it beyond any reasonable doubt. In the words of Boyle, "nothing by authority."



              This is related to this question, but I do not suspect the OP here will get much from the solution there, so I reword it more simply:



              In special relativity, light rays (or just call them photons) are called "null observers." Null observers, by definition, have no proper way of measuring time intervals. Conceptually, one measures time intervals in relativity by sending light signals between frames - but if you are traveling at light speed then that measurement is useless.



              Perhaps this also helps for understanding "why null observers?"







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered 6 hours ago









              N. Steinle

              79519




              79519




















                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote













                  It is true that photons do not experience proper time. On the other hand a photon can experience a series of events during its lifetime. Does that means that he experiences all the events at the same time? this does not seem plausible. In addition, you cannot define a reference frame that travels at c. Mixing all of this together, one possible conclusion could be that the experience of proper time in a non-reference frame is different than the experience of proper time in a reference frame, and thus we have no clue what the photon "experiences".






                  share|cite|improve this answer
























                    up vote
                    1
                    down vote













                    It is true that photons do not experience proper time. On the other hand a photon can experience a series of events during its lifetime. Does that means that he experiences all the events at the same time? this does not seem plausible. In addition, you cannot define a reference frame that travels at c. Mixing all of this together, one possible conclusion could be that the experience of proper time in a non-reference frame is different than the experience of proper time in a reference frame, and thus we have no clue what the photon "experiences".






                    share|cite|improve this answer






















                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote









                      It is true that photons do not experience proper time. On the other hand a photon can experience a series of events during its lifetime. Does that means that he experiences all the events at the same time? this does not seem plausible. In addition, you cannot define a reference frame that travels at c. Mixing all of this together, one possible conclusion could be that the experience of proper time in a non-reference frame is different than the experience of proper time in a reference frame, and thus we have no clue what the photon "experiences".






                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      It is true that photons do not experience proper time. On the other hand a photon can experience a series of events during its lifetime. Does that means that he experiences all the events at the same time? this does not seem plausible. In addition, you cannot define a reference frame that travels at c. Mixing all of this together, one possible conclusion could be that the experience of proper time in a non-reference frame is different than the experience of proper time in a reference frame, and thus we have no clue what the photon "experiences".







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered 5 hours ago









                      Wolphram jonny

                      10.3k22451




                      10.3k22451




















                          up vote
                          1
                          down vote














                          To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed.




                          If there were just massless fields (particles), it would still be the case that spacetime has 1 temporal and 3 spatial dimensions so, in this sense, time exists independently of mass.



                          However, as Sir Roger Penrose has pointed out in his work on the Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC), when there are just massless (conformally invariant) entities, there is no way to 'build a clock' (or a ruler) and so the universe 'loses track of time' (and distance too).



                          From Before the Big Bang: An Outrageous New Perspective and its Implications for Particle Physics




                          Physically, we may think that again in the very remote
                          future, the universe “forgets” time in the sense that there is no way
                          to build a clock with just conformally invariant material. This
                          is related to the fact that massless particles, in relativity
                          theory, do not experience any passage of time. We might even
                          say that to a massless particle, “eternity is no big deal”.







                          share|cite|improve this answer
























                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote














                            To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed.




                            If there were just massless fields (particles), it would still be the case that spacetime has 1 temporal and 3 spatial dimensions so, in this sense, time exists independently of mass.



                            However, as Sir Roger Penrose has pointed out in his work on the Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC), when there are just massless (conformally invariant) entities, there is no way to 'build a clock' (or a ruler) and so the universe 'loses track of time' (and distance too).



                            From Before the Big Bang: An Outrageous New Perspective and its Implications for Particle Physics




                            Physically, we may think that again in the very remote
                            future, the universe “forgets” time in the sense that there is no way
                            to build a clock with just conformally invariant material. This
                            is related to the fact that massless particles, in relativity
                            theory, do not experience any passage of time. We might even
                            say that to a massless particle, “eternity is no big deal”.







                            share|cite|improve this answer






















                              up vote
                              1
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              1
                              down vote










                              To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed.




                              If there were just massless fields (particles), it would still be the case that spacetime has 1 temporal and 3 spatial dimensions so, in this sense, time exists independently of mass.



                              However, as Sir Roger Penrose has pointed out in his work on the Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC), when there are just massless (conformally invariant) entities, there is no way to 'build a clock' (or a ruler) and so the universe 'loses track of time' (and distance too).



                              From Before the Big Bang: An Outrageous New Perspective and its Implications for Particle Physics




                              Physically, we may think that again in the very remote
                              future, the universe “forgets” time in the sense that there is no way
                              to build a clock with just conformally invariant material. This
                              is related to the fact that massless particles, in relativity
                              theory, do not experience any passage of time. We might even
                              say that to a massless particle, “eternity is no big deal”.







                              share|cite|improve this answer













                              To me that's a profound conclusion yet not one I see printed.




                              If there were just massless fields (particles), it would still be the case that spacetime has 1 temporal and 3 spatial dimensions so, in this sense, time exists independently of mass.



                              However, as Sir Roger Penrose has pointed out in his work on the Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC), when there are just massless (conformally invariant) entities, there is no way to 'build a clock' (or a ruler) and so the universe 'loses track of time' (and distance too).



                              From Before the Big Bang: An Outrageous New Perspective and its Implications for Particle Physics




                              Physically, we may think that again in the very remote
                              future, the universe “forgets” time in the sense that there is no way
                              to build a clock with just conformally invariant material. This
                              is related to the fact that massless particles, in relativity
                              theory, do not experience any passage of time. We might even
                              say that to a massless particle, “eternity is no big deal”.








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                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer










                              answered 4 hours ago









                              Alfred Centauri

                              47.1k347142




                              47.1k347142




















                                  up vote
                                  0
                                  down vote














                                  is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?




                                  Yes, it is fair to say that as long as you are specifically speaking of proper time (which seems reasonable to say when speaking of “the property of time”).



                                  Proper time is an affine parameter for timelike worldlines, and only massive objects have timelike worldlines. Massless objects do have affine parameters, but they are not proper time.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer
























                                    up vote
                                    0
                                    down vote














                                    is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?




                                    Yes, it is fair to say that as long as you are specifically speaking of proper time (which seems reasonable to say when speaking of “the property of time”).



                                    Proper time is an affine parameter for timelike worldlines, and only massive objects have timelike worldlines. Massless objects do have affine parameters, but they are not proper time.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer






















                                      up vote
                                      0
                                      down vote










                                      up vote
                                      0
                                      down vote










                                      is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?




                                      Yes, it is fair to say that as long as you are specifically speaking of proper time (which seems reasonable to say when speaking of “the property of time”).



                                      Proper time is an affine parameter for timelike worldlines, and only massive objects have timelike worldlines. Massless objects do have affine parameters, but they are not proper time.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer













                                      is it fair to say the property of time is a consequence of having mass?




                                      Yes, it is fair to say that as long as you are specifically speaking of proper time (which seems reasonable to say when speaking of “the property of time”).



                                      Proper time is an affine parameter for timelike worldlines, and only massive objects have timelike worldlines. Massless objects do have affine parameters, but they are not proper time.







                                      share|cite|improve this answer












                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer










                                      answered 3 hours ago









                                      Dale

                                      2,976416




                                      2,976416




















                                          TLV is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









                                           

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