Am I the only one to hear Cb instead of B here?

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This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).



Look at the third beat from measure 28.



I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.



I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).



Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?



EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :




(at 3:28)

enter image description here










share|improve this question























  • Did you mean an Abm chord?
    – Tim
    54 mins ago










  • @Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).



Look at the third beat from measure 28.



I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.



I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).



Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?



EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :




(at 3:28)

enter image description here










share|improve this question























  • Did you mean an Abm chord?
    – Tim
    54 mins ago










  • @Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).



Look at the third beat from measure 28.



I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.



I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).



Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?



EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :




(at 3:28)

enter image description here










share|improve this question















This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).



Look at the third beat from measure 28.



I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.



I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).



Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?



EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :




(at 3:28)

enter image description here















harmony hearing






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 26 mins ago

























asked 1 hour ago









Alexandre C.

24115




24115











  • Did you mean an Abm chord?
    – Tim
    54 mins ago










  • @Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago

















  • Did you mean an Abm chord?
    – Tim
    54 mins ago










  • @Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago
















Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
54 mins ago




Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
54 mins ago












@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
43 mins ago





@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
43 mins ago











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote













Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.



And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.






share|improve this answer




















  • Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
    – Alexandre C.
    41 mins ago






  • 1




    @AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
    – Scott Wallace
    22 mins ago

















up vote
3
down vote













The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."



I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.



That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:









share|improve this answer




















  • It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago










  • Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
    – Scott Wallace
    26 mins ago










  • @ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
    – Alexandre C.
    22 mins ago











  • @AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
    – Scott Wallace
    19 mins ago






  • 1




    @ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
    – Ben I.
    17 mins ago











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
3
down vote













Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.



And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.






share|improve this answer




















  • Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
    – Alexandre C.
    41 mins ago






  • 1




    @AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
    – Scott Wallace
    22 mins ago














up vote
3
down vote













Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.



And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.






share|improve this answer




















  • Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
    – Alexandre C.
    41 mins ago






  • 1




    @AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
    – Scott Wallace
    22 mins ago












up vote
3
down vote










up vote
3
down vote









Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.



And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.






share|improve this answer












Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.



And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 1 hour ago









Scott Wallace

3,775715




3,775715











  • Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
    – Alexandre C.
    41 mins ago






  • 1




    @AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
    – Scott Wallace
    22 mins ago
















  • Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
    – Alexandre C.
    41 mins ago






  • 1




    @AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
    – Scott Wallace
    22 mins ago















Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
41 mins ago




Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
41 mins ago




1




1




@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
22 mins ago




@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
22 mins ago










up vote
3
down vote













The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."



I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.



That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:









share|improve this answer




















  • It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago










  • Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
    – Scott Wallace
    26 mins ago










  • @ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
    – Alexandre C.
    22 mins ago











  • @AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
    – Scott Wallace
    19 mins ago






  • 1




    @ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
    – Ben I.
    17 mins ago















up vote
3
down vote













The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."



I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.



That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:









share|improve this answer




















  • It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago










  • Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
    – Scott Wallace
    26 mins ago










  • @ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
    – Alexandre C.
    22 mins ago











  • @AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
    – Scott Wallace
    19 mins ago






  • 1




    @ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
    – Ben I.
    17 mins ago













up vote
3
down vote










up vote
3
down vote









The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."



I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.



That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:









share|improve this answer












The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."



I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.



That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:


















share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 55 mins ago









Ben I.

988415




988415











  • It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago










  • Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
    – Scott Wallace
    26 mins ago










  • @ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
    – Alexandre C.
    22 mins ago











  • @AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
    – Scott Wallace
    19 mins ago






  • 1




    @ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
    – Ben I.
    17 mins ago

















  • It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
    – Alexandre C.
    43 mins ago










  • Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
    – Scott Wallace
    26 mins ago










  • @ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
    – Alexandre C.
    22 mins ago











  • @AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
    – Scott Wallace
    19 mins ago






  • 1




    @ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
    – Ben I.
    17 mins ago
















It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
43 mins ago




It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
43 mins ago












Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
26 mins ago




Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
26 mins ago












@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
22 mins ago





@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
22 mins ago













@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
19 mins ago




@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
19 mins ago




1




1




@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
17 mins ago





@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
17 mins ago


















 

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