Am I the only one to hear Cb instead of B here?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
Did you mean an Abm chord?
â Tim
54 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
harmony hearing
edited 26 mins ago
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
24115
Did you mean an Abm chord?
â Tim
54 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Did you mean an Abm chord?
â Tim
54 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
Did you mean an Abm chord?
â Tim
54 mins ago
Did you mean an Abm chord?
â Tim
54 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
â Alexandre C.
41 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
â Scott Wallace
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
â Scott Wallace
26 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
â Alexandre C.
22 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
â Scott Wallace
19 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
â Ben I.
17 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
â Alexandre C.
41 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
â Scott Wallace
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
â Alexandre C.
41 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
â Scott Wallace
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
3,775715
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
â Alexandre C.
41 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
â Scott Wallace
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
â Alexandre C.
41 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
â Scott Wallace
22 mins ago
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
â Alexandre C.
41 mins ago
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
â Alexandre C.
41 mins ago
1
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
â Scott Wallace
22 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
â Scott Wallace
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
â Scott Wallace
26 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
â Alexandre C.
22 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
â Scott Wallace
19 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
â Ben I.
17 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
â Scott Wallace
26 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
â Alexandre C.
22 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
â Scott Wallace
19 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
â Ben I.
17 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered 55 mins ago
Ben I.
988415
988415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
â Scott Wallace
26 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
â Alexandre C.
22 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
â Scott Wallace
19 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
â Ben I.
17 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
â Scott Wallace
26 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
â Alexandre C.
22 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
â Scott Wallace
19 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
â Ben I.
17 mins ago
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
â Scott Wallace
26 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
â Scott Wallace
26 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
â Alexandre C.
22 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
â Alexandre C.
22 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
â Scott Wallace
19 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
â Scott Wallace
19 mins ago
1
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
â Ben I.
17 mins ago
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
â Ben I.
17 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f76305%2fam-i-the-only-one-to-hear-cb-instead-of-b-here%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Did you mean an Abm chord?
â Tim
54 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
â Alexandre C.
43 mins ago