What is the earliest point in history that Big Brother could exist?

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In the modern world, the technology to monitor your every movement and action is imminently feasible. No one doubts the ability of an omni-government to monitor people; hence GDPR.



But Orwell posited such a controlling government in Nineteen Eighty-Four, published in 1949.



What is the earliest point in human history that a government (of any sized society) could achieve a Nineteen Eighty-Four-like control of its population?



Here are some relevant attributes of the government in Nineteen Eighty-Four; with spoiler tags because I'm sensitive to those who have put off reading the book for 69 years.



  • Constant surveillance of the population (through 'telescreens', possibly)



  • The ability to project a fictitious but omni-present leader, Big Brother, who 'always' rules no matter who rules behind the scenes




  • The apparent high-probability chance of detecting rebels before they even act











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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – L.Dutch♦
    Sep 21 at 12:09










  • I would say, 1984. East Germany had a well developed spy network (watch 'The Lives of Others') and Max Headroom was a 'virtual' talking head introduced in 1984. It's not hard to imagine if a government devoted its full resources it could achieve what's described in the book. (However I don't believe it would be sustainable.)
    – Chloe
    Sep 21 at 15:55















up vote
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down vote

favorite
5












In the modern world, the technology to monitor your every movement and action is imminently feasible. No one doubts the ability of an omni-government to monitor people; hence GDPR.



But Orwell posited such a controlling government in Nineteen Eighty-Four, published in 1949.



What is the earliest point in human history that a government (of any sized society) could achieve a Nineteen Eighty-Four-like control of its population?



Here are some relevant attributes of the government in Nineteen Eighty-Four; with spoiler tags because I'm sensitive to those who have put off reading the book for 69 years.



  • Constant surveillance of the population (through 'telescreens', possibly)



  • The ability to project a fictitious but omni-present leader, Big Brother, who 'always' rules no matter who rules behind the scenes




  • The apparent high-probability chance of detecting rebels before they even act











share|improve this question























  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – L.Dutch♦
    Sep 21 at 12:09










  • I would say, 1984. East Germany had a well developed spy network (watch 'The Lives of Others') and Max Headroom was a 'virtual' talking head introduced in 1984. It's not hard to imagine if a government devoted its full resources it could achieve what's described in the book. (However I don't believe it would be sustainable.)
    – Chloe
    Sep 21 at 15:55













up vote
32
down vote

favorite
5









up vote
32
down vote

favorite
5






5





In the modern world, the technology to monitor your every movement and action is imminently feasible. No one doubts the ability of an omni-government to monitor people; hence GDPR.



But Orwell posited such a controlling government in Nineteen Eighty-Four, published in 1949.



What is the earliest point in human history that a government (of any sized society) could achieve a Nineteen Eighty-Four-like control of its population?



Here are some relevant attributes of the government in Nineteen Eighty-Four; with spoiler tags because I'm sensitive to those who have put off reading the book for 69 years.



  • Constant surveillance of the population (through 'telescreens', possibly)



  • The ability to project a fictitious but omni-present leader, Big Brother, who 'always' rules no matter who rules behind the scenes




  • The apparent high-probability chance of detecting rebels before they even act











share|improve this question















In the modern world, the technology to monitor your every movement and action is imminently feasible. No one doubts the ability of an omni-government to monitor people; hence GDPR.



But Orwell posited such a controlling government in Nineteen Eighty-Four, published in 1949.



What is the earliest point in human history that a government (of any sized society) could achieve a Nineteen Eighty-Four-like control of its population?



Here are some relevant attributes of the government in Nineteen Eighty-Four; with spoiler tags because I'm sensitive to those who have put off reading the book for 69 years.



  • Constant surveillance of the population (through 'telescreens', possibly)



  • The ability to project a fictitious but omni-present leader, Big Brother, who 'always' rules no matter who rules behind the scenes




  • The apparent high-probability chance of detecting rebels before they even act








society government






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edited Sep 19 at 23:42

























asked Sep 19 at 11:01









kingledion

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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – L.Dutch♦
    Sep 21 at 12:09










  • I would say, 1984. East Germany had a well developed spy network (watch 'The Lives of Others') and Max Headroom was a 'virtual' talking head introduced in 1984. It's not hard to imagine if a government devoted its full resources it could achieve what's described in the book. (However I don't believe it would be sustainable.)
    – Chloe
    Sep 21 at 15:55

















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – L.Dutch♦
    Sep 21 at 12:09










  • I would say, 1984. East Germany had a well developed spy network (watch 'The Lives of Others') and Max Headroom was a 'virtual' talking head introduced in 1984. It's not hard to imagine if a government devoted its full resources it could achieve what's described in the book. (However I don't believe it would be sustainable.)
    – Chloe
    Sep 21 at 15:55
















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
Sep 21 at 12:09




Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
Sep 21 at 12:09












I would say, 1984. East Germany had a well developed spy network (watch 'The Lives of Others') and Max Headroom was a 'virtual' talking head introduced in 1984. It's not hard to imagine if a government devoted its full resources it could achieve what's described in the book. (However I don't believe it would be sustainable.)
– Chloe
Sep 21 at 15:55





I would say, 1984. East Germany had a well developed spy network (watch 'The Lives of Others') and Max Headroom was a 'virtual' talking head introduced in 1984. It's not hard to imagine if a government devoted its full resources it could achieve what's described in the book. (However I don't believe it would be sustainable.)
– Chloe
Sep 21 at 15:55











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In the former German Democratic Republic (GDR) a system very similar to Big Brother was in place, though not relying on technology, but using human informants only.



It was set up by the Stasi:




Full-time officers were posted to all major industrial plants (the extensiveness of any surveillance largely depended on how valuable a product was to the economy) and one tenant in every apartment building was designated as a watchdog reporting to an area representative of the Volkspolizei (Vopo). Spies reported every relative or friend who stayed the night at another's apartment. Tiny holes were drilled in apartment and hotel room walls through which Stasi agents filmed citizens with special video cameras. Schools, universities, and hospitals were extensively infiltrated.



The Stasi had formal categorizations of each type of informant, and had official guidelines on how to extract information from, and control, those with whom they came into contact. The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by the time that East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015 employees and 173,081 informants. About one out of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi. By at least one estimate, the Stasi maintained greater surveillance over its own people than any secret police force in history.




They also had something closely similar to the psycho-police:




The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung (pronounced [ʦɛɐ̯ˈzɛtsʊŋ]) – a term borrowed from chemistry which literally means "decomposition". Tactics employed under Zersetzung generally involved the disruption of the victim's private or family life. This often included psychological attacks, such as breaking into homes and subtly manipulating the contents, in a form of gaslighting – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another. Other practices included property damage, sabotage of cars, purposely incorrect medical treatment, smear campaigns including sending falsified compromising photos or documents to the victim's family, denunciation, provocation, psychological warfare, psychological subversion, wiretapping, bugging, mysterious phone calls or unnecessary deliveries, even including sending a vibrator to a target's wife. Usually, victims had no idea that the Stasi were responsible. Many thought that they were losing their minds, and mental breakdowns and suicide could result.




Considering that the Stasi could rely on the experience developed in the USSR, I would say that anticipating its creation at the beginning of the XX century would be entirely plausible.






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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – L.Dutch♦
    Sep 22 at 3:08

















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If you forego the 'telescreens' I'd say it was feasible at the end of the industrial revolution.



Take the former GDR (German Democratic Republic) as example and adjust some historical facts to an extreme.



  • There was an personality cult in the GDR idolizing the political leaders beyond any reason. Replace a human leader with an avatar of some kind and The Great Leader will never die.

  • The Stasi ("Staatssicherheit", former intelligence agency) employed thousands of so-called "inofficial collaborators". These were ordinary citizens who reported deviant behavior of every person they encountered in their daily lives to the Stasi. Most of them actually thought they did the right thing, protecting their country and their lives against intruders and attackers from outside. In extreme cases, the Stasi turned family members against each other or infiltrated a family by sending an undercover agent playing the lover.

  • Propaganda! There was propaganda everywhere, every day. Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR. You must brainwash your people to let them believe in the political system and perceive outside influences (like the absurd idea of democracy) as dangerous and harmfull.

  • You need to start brainwashing the smallest children to let them grow up into the role of the loyal citizen. Produce cartoon shows and text books teaching them from early age about their beloved Big Brother. Adapt curriculums to lead them into the direction you want. Give away Big Brother plushies to be embraced in the hearts of the smallest. One day, they grow up, but Big Brother will have an eternal place in their hearts.


Why did I set the time frame for the governmental control to the industrial revolution?



The GDR proved that you don't need digital surveillance to control the population. You can do it with the right tools and manpower.



You need:



  • A cheap and endless supply of paper.


  • A filing structure that made it possible to retrieve and connect massive amounts of information.


  • A literacy rate of approx. 70-80% of the population to find enough suitable people to employ as inofficial collaborators.


  • A concept of the enemy or bogeyman. Somehow you have to explain why all this supervision is necessary.


  • A few decades of carefull propaganda and political indoctrination. The second generation growing up under Big Brother's watchfull eye will be brainwashed from birth.


  • A stable economy. The downfall of the GDR was the bad financial situation. Single cells of rebels never had any big impact on the GDR, it took the mass of the general population dissatisfied with their life circumstances to bring the system down.






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    Right. "Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR." Quite so. Again, the fundamental confusion here seems to be, not realizing that "1984" was, quite simply, ABOUT "the Soviet Union" - that was the whole point. (And, moreover, Huxley astutely realized that "we were just as bad and en route to the same place".)
    – Fattie
    Sep 19 at 15:25






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    @Fattie Huxely? Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World. 1984 was written by George Orwell. Both books posit a dystopian future and are often compared critically, so the confusion is understandable...
    – Oscar Bravo
    Sep 20 at 13:46











  • LOL thanks @OscarBravo ..
    – Fattie
    Sep 20 at 15:30










  • Same comment as on the other GDR answer: The Stasi was heavily reliant on (at the time) modern technology for its surveillance. So I’m not sure that how proves that it could be done without.
    – Konrad Rudolph
    Sep 21 at 15:08

















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A small enough community can achieve this level of surveilance with simple observation



You need...



  • An insecure leader willing to dominate the tribe with violence.

  • Sycophantic members of the tribe willing to narc on their neighbors.

This could be achieved with the first chieftan-oriented tribal social structures, which occured in the Neolithic period (10,000 BC).



However, this same behavior could just as easily be familial (a father tyranically watching over his brood), which means you can achieve your goal as early as 300,000 BC.



Unless...



You don't define what you mean by "constant surveillance." If by that you mean "somebody else has eyes and ears on you 24/7" then I predict it will come available sometime around year 2150. We can monitor communications, some viewing habits, some transit, and we have cameras in many places, but the reality is that we can't monitor the general population 24/7 today.



Conclusion



The goal could be achieved by...



  • Family units as early as 300,000 BC (possibly earlier).

  • Tribal units as early as 10,000 BC.

  • Unless you really mean "complete surveillance," then it won't happen IMO until about 2150.



Edit:

A couple of commenters have suggested that we can achieve complete surveillance today. It's true that we have the technology to make cameras and microphones... but that's not actually the problem.



We have such a deluge of data right now that people are actually contemplating using magnetic tape to try and handle the data flow (Spectrum, IEEE, 09/2018) and complete surveillance would require increasing that data flow 10,000 fold (at least 10,000 fold. How many houses and businesses have cameras in every room today? Answer: almost none. [35.7M houses in the U.S. alone, what, average 7 rooms + garage per house? That's probably small... 300 million new cameras+mics, just in the houses... just in the U.S.... And that's just houses....).



People who think this is achievable with today's tech haven't thought the entire problem through. That data needs to be captured, transmitted, stored, evaluated... ugh (you'd need a third the country's population just to review all this data in a timely manner, the computational power to evaluate that much data realtime is appreciable). We're no where near the ability to handle that much second-by-second dataflow.






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    I think that all the technology we need for electronic mass surveillance already exists today. Micro cameras and microphones, automatic voice and face recognition, the big data processing technology to mine it all... everything available commercially over the shelf. The only reason we don't have 24/7 surveillance is because there isn't the political will to do it. What additional technological breakthrough do you think would be needed to not make it happen until 2150?
    – Philipp
    Sep 20 at 7:51







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    I'm afraid you're underestimating the technology we have now in place. There are already tools predicting behaviour based on the live camera footage, machine deep learning solutions that enable improve algorithms without creators realising what actually the computer is doing, big data mining to provide data for deep learning and all the technology needed to make a 24/7 surveillance (i.e. recording/monitoring everything that is going on in every single home and in the streets). We're actually better at this than what was suggested in Orwell's novel.
    – Ister
    Sep 20 at 7:52










  • The real limit on 24/7 surveillance is the cost and the amount of data produced- just too much irrelevant data to sort through. The Chinese Government would love to surveillance 24/7 but they are coming close is with the Social Rating judge you and your family on standards that their leaders breach all the time and blanket online and camera coverage.
    – user2617804
    Sep 22 at 8:52

















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I personally think you could pull this off even as early as the Bronze age if you are dedicated enough to it. Granted it will make the whole process less centralized and efficient, but you didn't make that one of the requirements.



What's to prevent for example the Assyrian king from setting up a Stasi like system? What does he need? A bureacracy capable of handling the information? I think it's possible.



There was less literacy in those times, but there are also factors that allow that to be a non-issue. For example the spies don't have to be literate, only the people penning down and processing the information have to be. The area to be monitored is also smaller since most people live in or close to cities.



All the Assyrian king has to do is set up a spy system in every city with a loyal guy in charge. It's of course less efficient, but there are also factors that make it harder to revolt in ancient times.






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    It depends I guess.



    If the telescreens are a mandatory attribute, this would put the earliest possible time somewhere in the beginning of the 20th century, when television and a lot of other needed or supporting technology (like transistor tubes) were invented. A nice read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_television



    The projection of a fictitious but omnipresent leader would have been possible by any society that was able to inform their subjects that there was a leader in the first place. The lack of modern (mass) media would make such a feat easier, not harder. It is in fact easier for us to ascertain that Julius Caesar was real than it ever was for Roman commoners living in the outskirts of the empire. A cynic could even argue that any society that has religion has this very ability. Denying the existence of [enter religious leader/prophet/messiah here] will in some places in the world lead to the same result as doubting big brother in Orwell's 1984. This can be observed throughout history.



    The last one is a hard one as it touches on a system of mass surveillance and a huge network of informants. Surely in 1984 (the year) they had this down to an art in the DDR. This was an (on a whole) analogue, paper based system, that could have been contrived by any civilization that had literacy and a bureaucracy. To what extend this was achievable in practice is hard to tell (for me at least), it would be a nice question for history.se I would think.






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      The purpose of surveillance is control of population/society....



      The "Big Brother" has been around for all of human history.



      Tree/Cave/Tribal chiefs/shamans provided a social/dogma code to control/master the population and derive benefits shells/stones/bronze...gold, food/security... procreation....



      Political, religious, economic... dogma-affect of individuals will effect social position/etiquette... of individuals. Dogma-affect always provides persons with justifications for life/death, inclusion/exclusion, believe/ignore, value/valueless....



      From this "Big Brother" perspective of Fear Uncertainty Doubt Obfuscation (FUDO...?), all dogma is a model for surveillance based on a primitive FUDO model used by all social systems that seek to oppress individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity.... The implied; human society, though understanding the iniquity of disparity, remains lethally and terminally unchanged for about 1,000,000 years.



      So; Remaining under surveillance, in the stone-age, iron-age, tech-age... by BigBrother-FUDO, remains persistently in control of life and evolution for people & society. BigBrother-FUDO dogma assures primitives survival, human tragedy, and eventually extinction.



      Humanity can evolve only after humanity learns to govern BigBrother-FUDO globally. New political, economic, social, personal... life models can be used a/o evolved, but require an end of BigBrother-FUDO oppression of the individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity....



      Start with ending national government political, religious, economic, social... reactionary dogmas, then end economic disparity, and provide minimum income levels, free healthcare & education.... Humanity no longer needs BigBrother-FUDO BabaYaga, PèreMalfait, Satan... for survival & evolution.






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      • Welcome to Worldbuilding! Good job on this answer, +1. My question is, would an early society be able to use constant surveillance, in a world before cameras, GPS, and microphones? I think it would be difficult to monitor everything people are doing without electronics.
        – John Locke
        Sep 19 at 18:15










      • Constant surveillance is like perfect security, it never can happen. Humanity will out. Humans are not born dogma affected sheeple, nurture forced comply with the accepted dogma reality, which is never actuality.
        – user22501
        Sep 20 at 3:39










      • So you are saying 1984 will never happen to the level where surveillance is constant? I would tend to disagree, regimes already force people to comply, and a lot of human history has involved forcing people to do stuff against their will. Humans don't have to know about the surveillance anyway. In 1984 people might think that the telescreens were recording them, but there was never any proof. People aren't going to revolt against surveillance they don't know about.
        – John Locke
        Sep 20 at 11:37

















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      I'm going to say 1086. That's when William the Conqueror compiled the Domesday Book listing every piece of land and every land-owning family in the whole of England. Rebel against him, and he knew who you were, where you lived, and where your family and serfs lived. Stay loyal to him, and he (or his taxmen) knew to the penny how much you owed him and what your commitments were to his army.



      You could make an argument for the Romans starting it, with their censuses. (Remember why Joseph and Mary were travelling to Bethlehem in the first place.) There wasn't never really a follow-up from the Romans though to use it as a serious means of controlling the people on their lists, whereas the Domesday Book was expressly intended for that purpose, so that William could demand taxes and exercise control across his new kingdom.






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        Surveillance is possible but not all that feasible with the advent of audio transmission. Controlling and monitoring someone's every move let alone a whole nation or even city would be a herculean task with just analog audio signals or even analog video transmission as it existed in decades past.
        I would posit that information-era technology and communications is the earliest a ruling power could surveil a large population like in 1984.



        The kind of control you reference via big brother is only really possible through mass communication, repeating messaging to a populace until the eventual adoption of those values requires media or communications that can be passed on reliably every day.



        Reliably meaning that there is as little loss in translation as possible, the message is exact and indelible. Things such as town criers or other social messaging would make it extremely unlikely for totalitarian social control to be successful.



        From this we can assert that everyone hearing/reading/seeing the same message leads to it being self repeating socially, there is no social representative per-se, no messenger just the message at the initial point of contact with society. The message then has a high likelihood of being self-replicating
        if it is propagandized effectively creating and/or resolving emotions of the populace.



        Therefore the only time it enters a likelihood of success is with the following conditions; following the technological advance of our own history this is the earliest point at which this type of social control can be enforced.



        The following technological states need to be true at a minimum for a high chance of succeeding:



        1) The printing press exists



        2) Most of the population dwells in cities or easy-to-govern population centers



        3) Industrial production is on track to become the majority of the labor force



        The following civic and social conditions need to be true:



        1) The population has a basic literacy



        2) The printing press is efficiently controlled by the ruling power



        3) Ownership over print media is strictly controlled



        4) Populace has sufficient access to food



        Enforcing education to a state standard is not absolutely necessary, without it the populace needs only limited education and constant access to food and comforts. If they are 'comfortable enough' then they can be occupied with non-survival related dilemmas.



        Notice that likelihood is the word in all of this, a ruling power can control a population with access to resources in order to fund a policing body large enough to control a population, this of course is much easier with a small population. For example to the latter, a rich and paranoid city-state with the population of renaissance venice and the wealth of Mansa-Musa of Mali.



        If you want to know the whole story about this kind of control read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, there is also a documentary.






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        • 1




          Are you sure that sufficient food and literacy are necessary? If most of the population is illiterate, secret communication is just that much harder. The ability of a small number of elites to read mean they can control those who can't (For example, see Animal Farm, which was also written by Orwell). As for food, in modern dystopias and in books like 1984, much of the population is starving. Is sufficient food needed just to begin taking over ("If you're starving, join our country, we have food", and then you take over and slowly lower food rations), or do you always need sufficient food?
          – John Locke
          Sep 19 at 18:23










        • Starvation is common throughout most rebellions in history, 'sufficient' food is relative. 'Let them eat cake!' The average caloric intake for people in much older versions of society would be around 1000 calories, whereas by today's standard a man of average height should have an intake of 2000 to maintain current weight. So long as food is always reliably available there should be a lower chance of rebellion. It is also true that having literacy comes with risk of subversion, I maintain that it is a unavoidable flaw for social control output scaling up.
          – J T
          Sep 20 at 6:49







        • 1




          Why do you think that population-wide literature is necessary for controlling a population in the first place?
          – John Locke
          Sep 20 at 11:50






        • 1




          @DaBaum "Monitoring someone's every move... would be a herculean task." You seem to have grasped this better than all of the other answers. "Big Brother" isn't limited by technology or social status, but by the sheer magnitude of man-hours it takes to sift through all of the data generated by an entire population's daily lives! I mean, Winston in the book was caught because he was extremely careless, not because Big Brother kept particularly good tabs on him.
          – Michael W.
          Sep 20 at 15:57






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          Ok, so each person being able to read means they will see the laws, not hear them from word of mouth, which could mix them up. Is that what you're saying?
          – John Locke
          Sep 21 at 10:35

















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        Others already pointed you to earlier examples of surveillance, but one I find particularly noteworthy is the Puritans in the 17th century colonies. They had a prohibition on anybody living alone, because living alone would allow somebody to remain unobserved.






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        • Do you have any evidence of that?
          – kingledion
          Sep 20 at 13:15










        • @kingledion, "...a recognition of the importance of 'minding one's own business' and not being a busybody served as a check against rigid enforcement of Puritan laws that prohibited, among other things, having sex outside of marriage, swearing, living alone, or dressing ostentatiously." (source].
          – JBH
          Sep 21 at 3:38











        • @kingledion, Ah... "In fact, Puritans were so concerned about monitoring behavior that they passed laws prohibiting people from living alone." (Source)
          – JBH
          Sep 21 at 3:41

















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        I read a paper sometime ago that compared modern surveillance with the Catholic Church of a few hundred years ago. If you think about it, convincing a large population to confess to their priest and using priests as intelligence agents is an interesting idea.



        But nowadays? We are way too smart to tell on ourselves. Right? I mean, if we were told to carry around a small gadget that tracked our every move, and enabled tracking our communications - we'd never do that, would we? And equipping a populace with monitoring gadgets would be so expensive - what government could afford such a thing??? OH I have an idea - let's get the sheeple to pay for the gadgets themselves!






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          10 Answers
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          In the former German Democratic Republic (GDR) a system very similar to Big Brother was in place, though not relying on technology, but using human informants only.



          It was set up by the Stasi:




          Full-time officers were posted to all major industrial plants (the extensiveness of any surveillance largely depended on how valuable a product was to the economy) and one tenant in every apartment building was designated as a watchdog reporting to an area representative of the Volkspolizei (Vopo). Spies reported every relative or friend who stayed the night at another's apartment. Tiny holes were drilled in apartment and hotel room walls through which Stasi agents filmed citizens with special video cameras. Schools, universities, and hospitals were extensively infiltrated.



          The Stasi had formal categorizations of each type of informant, and had official guidelines on how to extract information from, and control, those with whom they came into contact. The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by the time that East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015 employees and 173,081 informants. About one out of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi. By at least one estimate, the Stasi maintained greater surveillance over its own people than any secret police force in history.




          They also had something closely similar to the psycho-police:




          The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung (pronounced [ʦɛɐ̯ˈzɛtsʊŋ]) – a term borrowed from chemistry which literally means "decomposition". Tactics employed under Zersetzung generally involved the disruption of the victim's private or family life. This often included psychological attacks, such as breaking into homes and subtly manipulating the contents, in a form of gaslighting – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another. Other practices included property damage, sabotage of cars, purposely incorrect medical treatment, smear campaigns including sending falsified compromising photos or documents to the victim's family, denunciation, provocation, psychological warfare, psychological subversion, wiretapping, bugging, mysterious phone calls or unnecessary deliveries, even including sending a vibrator to a target's wife. Usually, victims had no idea that the Stasi were responsible. Many thought that they were losing their minds, and mental breakdowns and suicide could result.




          Considering that the Stasi could rely on the experience developed in the USSR, I would say that anticipating its creation at the beginning of the XX century would be entirely plausible.






          share|improve this answer






















          • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
            – L.Dutch♦
            Sep 22 at 3:08














          up vote
          58
          down vote













          In the former German Democratic Republic (GDR) a system very similar to Big Brother was in place, though not relying on technology, but using human informants only.



          It was set up by the Stasi:




          Full-time officers were posted to all major industrial plants (the extensiveness of any surveillance largely depended on how valuable a product was to the economy) and one tenant in every apartment building was designated as a watchdog reporting to an area representative of the Volkspolizei (Vopo). Spies reported every relative or friend who stayed the night at another's apartment. Tiny holes were drilled in apartment and hotel room walls through which Stasi agents filmed citizens with special video cameras. Schools, universities, and hospitals were extensively infiltrated.



          The Stasi had formal categorizations of each type of informant, and had official guidelines on how to extract information from, and control, those with whom they came into contact. The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by the time that East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015 employees and 173,081 informants. About one out of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi. By at least one estimate, the Stasi maintained greater surveillance over its own people than any secret police force in history.




          They also had something closely similar to the psycho-police:




          The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung (pronounced [ʦɛɐ̯ˈzɛtsʊŋ]) – a term borrowed from chemistry which literally means "decomposition". Tactics employed under Zersetzung generally involved the disruption of the victim's private or family life. This often included psychological attacks, such as breaking into homes and subtly manipulating the contents, in a form of gaslighting – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another. Other practices included property damage, sabotage of cars, purposely incorrect medical treatment, smear campaigns including sending falsified compromising photos or documents to the victim's family, denunciation, provocation, psychological warfare, psychological subversion, wiretapping, bugging, mysterious phone calls or unnecessary deliveries, even including sending a vibrator to a target's wife. Usually, victims had no idea that the Stasi were responsible. Many thought that they were losing their minds, and mental breakdowns and suicide could result.




          Considering that the Stasi could rely on the experience developed in the USSR, I would say that anticipating its creation at the beginning of the XX century would be entirely plausible.






          share|improve this answer






















          • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
            – L.Dutch♦
            Sep 22 at 3:08












          up vote
          58
          down vote










          up vote
          58
          down vote









          In the former German Democratic Republic (GDR) a system very similar to Big Brother was in place, though not relying on technology, but using human informants only.



          It was set up by the Stasi:




          Full-time officers were posted to all major industrial plants (the extensiveness of any surveillance largely depended on how valuable a product was to the economy) and one tenant in every apartment building was designated as a watchdog reporting to an area representative of the Volkspolizei (Vopo). Spies reported every relative or friend who stayed the night at another's apartment. Tiny holes were drilled in apartment and hotel room walls through which Stasi agents filmed citizens with special video cameras. Schools, universities, and hospitals were extensively infiltrated.



          The Stasi had formal categorizations of each type of informant, and had official guidelines on how to extract information from, and control, those with whom they came into contact. The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by the time that East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015 employees and 173,081 informants. About one out of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi. By at least one estimate, the Stasi maintained greater surveillance over its own people than any secret police force in history.




          They also had something closely similar to the psycho-police:




          The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung (pronounced [ʦɛɐ̯ˈzɛtsʊŋ]) – a term borrowed from chemistry which literally means "decomposition". Tactics employed under Zersetzung generally involved the disruption of the victim's private or family life. This often included psychological attacks, such as breaking into homes and subtly manipulating the contents, in a form of gaslighting – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another. Other practices included property damage, sabotage of cars, purposely incorrect medical treatment, smear campaigns including sending falsified compromising photos or documents to the victim's family, denunciation, provocation, psychological warfare, psychological subversion, wiretapping, bugging, mysterious phone calls or unnecessary deliveries, even including sending a vibrator to a target's wife. Usually, victims had no idea that the Stasi were responsible. Many thought that they were losing their minds, and mental breakdowns and suicide could result.




          Considering that the Stasi could rely on the experience developed in the USSR, I would say that anticipating its creation at the beginning of the XX century would be entirely plausible.






          share|improve this answer














          In the former German Democratic Republic (GDR) a system very similar to Big Brother was in place, though not relying on technology, but using human informants only.



          It was set up by the Stasi:




          Full-time officers were posted to all major industrial plants (the extensiveness of any surveillance largely depended on how valuable a product was to the economy) and one tenant in every apartment building was designated as a watchdog reporting to an area representative of the Volkspolizei (Vopo). Spies reported every relative or friend who stayed the night at another's apartment. Tiny holes were drilled in apartment and hotel room walls through which Stasi agents filmed citizens with special video cameras. Schools, universities, and hospitals were extensively infiltrated.



          The Stasi had formal categorizations of each type of informant, and had official guidelines on how to extract information from, and control, those with whom they came into contact. The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by the time that East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015 employees and 173,081 informants. About one out of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi. By at least one estimate, the Stasi maintained greater surveillance over its own people than any secret police force in history.




          They also had something closely similar to the psycho-police:




          The Stasi perfected the technique of psychological harassment of perceived enemies known as Zersetzung (pronounced [ʦɛɐ̯ˈzɛtsʊŋ]) – a term borrowed from chemistry which literally means "decomposition". Tactics employed under Zersetzung generally involved the disruption of the victim's private or family life. This often included psychological attacks, such as breaking into homes and subtly manipulating the contents, in a form of gaslighting – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another. Other practices included property damage, sabotage of cars, purposely incorrect medical treatment, smear campaigns including sending falsified compromising photos or documents to the victim's family, denunciation, provocation, psychological warfare, psychological subversion, wiretapping, bugging, mysterious phone calls or unnecessary deliveries, even including sending a vibrator to a target's wife. Usually, victims had no idea that the Stasi were responsible. Many thought that they were losing their minds, and mental breakdowns and suicide could result.




          Considering that the Stasi could rely on the experience developed in the USSR, I would say that anticipating its creation at the beginning of the XX century would be entirely plausible.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Sep 20 at 22:22









          Fabby

          1,284414




          1,284414










          answered Sep 19 at 11:17









          L.Dutch♦

          65.5k20156309




          65.5k20156309











          • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
            – L.Dutch♦
            Sep 22 at 3:08
















          • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
            – L.Dutch♦
            Sep 22 at 3:08















          Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
          – L.Dutch♦
          Sep 22 at 3:08




          Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
          – L.Dutch♦
          Sep 22 at 3:08










          up vote
          31
          down vote













          If you forego the 'telescreens' I'd say it was feasible at the end of the industrial revolution.



          Take the former GDR (German Democratic Republic) as example and adjust some historical facts to an extreme.



          • There was an personality cult in the GDR idolizing the political leaders beyond any reason. Replace a human leader with an avatar of some kind and The Great Leader will never die.

          • The Stasi ("Staatssicherheit", former intelligence agency) employed thousands of so-called "inofficial collaborators". These were ordinary citizens who reported deviant behavior of every person they encountered in their daily lives to the Stasi. Most of them actually thought they did the right thing, protecting their country and their lives against intruders and attackers from outside. In extreme cases, the Stasi turned family members against each other or infiltrated a family by sending an undercover agent playing the lover.

          • Propaganda! There was propaganda everywhere, every day. Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR. You must brainwash your people to let them believe in the political system and perceive outside influences (like the absurd idea of democracy) as dangerous and harmfull.

          • You need to start brainwashing the smallest children to let them grow up into the role of the loyal citizen. Produce cartoon shows and text books teaching them from early age about their beloved Big Brother. Adapt curriculums to lead them into the direction you want. Give away Big Brother plushies to be embraced in the hearts of the smallest. One day, they grow up, but Big Brother will have an eternal place in their hearts.


          Why did I set the time frame for the governmental control to the industrial revolution?



          The GDR proved that you don't need digital surveillance to control the population. You can do it with the right tools and manpower.



          You need:



          • A cheap and endless supply of paper.


          • A filing structure that made it possible to retrieve and connect massive amounts of information.


          • A literacy rate of approx. 70-80% of the population to find enough suitable people to employ as inofficial collaborators.


          • A concept of the enemy or bogeyman. Somehow you have to explain why all this supervision is necessary.


          • A few decades of carefull propaganda and political indoctrination. The second generation growing up under Big Brother's watchfull eye will be brainwashed from birth.


          • A stable economy. The downfall of the GDR was the bad financial situation. Single cells of rebels never had any big impact on the GDR, it took the mass of the general population dissatisfied with their life circumstances to bring the system down.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 1




            Right. "Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR." Quite so. Again, the fundamental confusion here seems to be, not realizing that "1984" was, quite simply, ABOUT "the Soviet Union" - that was the whole point. (And, moreover, Huxley astutely realized that "we were just as bad and en route to the same place".)
            – Fattie
            Sep 19 at 15:25






          • 3




            @Fattie Huxely? Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World. 1984 was written by George Orwell. Both books posit a dystopian future and are often compared critically, so the confusion is understandable...
            – Oscar Bravo
            Sep 20 at 13:46











          • LOL thanks @OscarBravo ..
            – Fattie
            Sep 20 at 15:30










          • Same comment as on the other GDR answer: The Stasi was heavily reliant on (at the time) modern technology for its surveillance. So I’m not sure that how proves that it could be done without.
            – Konrad Rudolph
            Sep 21 at 15:08














          up vote
          31
          down vote













          If you forego the 'telescreens' I'd say it was feasible at the end of the industrial revolution.



          Take the former GDR (German Democratic Republic) as example and adjust some historical facts to an extreme.



          • There was an personality cult in the GDR idolizing the political leaders beyond any reason. Replace a human leader with an avatar of some kind and The Great Leader will never die.

          • The Stasi ("Staatssicherheit", former intelligence agency) employed thousands of so-called "inofficial collaborators". These were ordinary citizens who reported deviant behavior of every person they encountered in their daily lives to the Stasi. Most of them actually thought they did the right thing, protecting their country and their lives against intruders and attackers from outside. In extreme cases, the Stasi turned family members against each other or infiltrated a family by sending an undercover agent playing the lover.

          • Propaganda! There was propaganda everywhere, every day. Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR. You must brainwash your people to let them believe in the political system and perceive outside influences (like the absurd idea of democracy) as dangerous and harmfull.

          • You need to start brainwashing the smallest children to let them grow up into the role of the loyal citizen. Produce cartoon shows and text books teaching them from early age about their beloved Big Brother. Adapt curriculums to lead them into the direction you want. Give away Big Brother plushies to be embraced in the hearts of the smallest. One day, they grow up, but Big Brother will have an eternal place in their hearts.


          Why did I set the time frame for the governmental control to the industrial revolution?



          The GDR proved that you don't need digital surveillance to control the population. You can do it with the right tools and manpower.



          You need:



          • A cheap and endless supply of paper.


          • A filing structure that made it possible to retrieve and connect massive amounts of information.


          • A literacy rate of approx. 70-80% of the population to find enough suitable people to employ as inofficial collaborators.


          • A concept of the enemy or bogeyman. Somehow you have to explain why all this supervision is necessary.


          • A few decades of carefull propaganda and political indoctrination. The second generation growing up under Big Brother's watchfull eye will be brainwashed from birth.


          • A stable economy. The downfall of the GDR was the bad financial situation. Single cells of rebels never had any big impact on the GDR, it took the mass of the general population dissatisfied with their life circumstances to bring the system down.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 1




            Right. "Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR." Quite so. Again, the fundamental confusion here seems to be, not realizing that "1984" was, quite simply, ABOUT "the Soviet Union" - that was the whole point. (And, moreover, Huxley astutely realized that "we were just as bad and en route to the same place".)
            – Fattie
            Sep 19 at 15:25






          • 3




            @Fattie Huxely? Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World. 1984 was written by George Orwell. Both books posit a dystopian future and are often compared critically, so the confusion is understandable...
            – Oscar Bravo
            Sep 20 at 13:46











          • LOL thanks @OscarBravo ..
            – Fattie
            Sep 20 at 15:30










          • Same comment as on the other GDR answer: The Stasi was heavily reliant on (at the time) modern technology for its surveillance. So I’m not sure that how proves that it could be done without.
            – Konrad Rudolph
            Sep 21 at 15:08












          up vote
          31
          down vote










          up vote
          31
          down vote









          If you forego the 'telescreens' I'd say it was feasible at the end of the industrial revolution.



          Take the former GDR (German Democratic Republic) as example and adjust some historical facts to an extreme.



          • There was an personality cult in the GDR idolizing the political leaders beyond any reason. Replace a human leader with an avatar of some kind and The Great Leader will never die.

          • The Stasi ("Staatssicherheit", former intelligence agency) employed thousands of so-called "inofficial collaborators". These were ordinary citizens who reported deviant behavior of every person they encountered in their daily lives to the Stasi. Most of them actually thought they did the right thing, protecting their country and their lives against intruders and attackers from outside. In extreme cases, the Stasi turned family members against each other or infiltrated a family by sending an undercover agent playing the lover.

          • Propaganda! There was propaganda everywhere, every day. Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR. You must brainwash your people to let them believe in the political system and perceive outside influences (like the absurd idea of democracy) as dangerous and harmfull.

          • You need to start brainwashing the smallest children to let them grow up into the role of the loyal citizen. Produce cartoon shows and text books teaching them from early age about their beloved Big Brother. Adapt curriculums to lead them into the direction you want. Give away Big Brother plushies to be embraced in the hearts of the smallest. One day, they grow up, but Big Brother will have an eternal place in their hearts.


          Why did I set the time frame for the governmental control to the industrial revolution?



          The GDR proved that you don't need digital surveillance to control the population. You can do it with the right tools and manpower.



          You need:



          • A cheap and endless supply of paper.


          • A filing structure that made it possible to retrieve and connect massive amounts of information.


          • A literacy rate of approx. 70-80% of the population to find enough suitable people to employ as inofficial collaborators.


          • A concept of the enemy or bogeyman. Somehow you have to explain why all this supervision is necessary.


          • A few decades of carefull propaganda and political indoctrination. The second generation growing up under Big Brother's watchfull eye will be brainwashed from birth.


          • A stable economy. The downfall of the GDR was the bad financial situation. Single cells of rebels never had any big impact on the GDR, it took the mass of the general population dissatisfied with their life circumstances to bring the system down.






          share|improve this answer














          If you forego the 'telescreens' I'd say it was feasible at the end of the industrial revolution.



          Take the former GDR (German Democratic Republic) as example and adjust some historical facts to an extreme.



          • There was an personality cult in the GDR idolizing the political leaders beyond any reason. Replace a human leader with an avatar of some kind and The Great Leader will never die.

          • The Stasi ("Staatssicherheit", former intelligence agency) employed thousands of so-called "inofficial collaborators". These were ordinary citizens who reported deviant behavior of every person they encountered in their daily lives to the Stasi. Most of them actually thought they did the right thing, protecting their country and their lives against intruders and attackers from outside. In extreme cases, the Stasi turned family members against each other or infiltrated a family by sending an undercover agent playing the lover.

          • Propaganda! There was propaganda everywhere, every day. Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR. You must brainwash your people to let them believe in the political system and perceive outside influences (like the absurd idea of democracy) as dangerous and harmfull.

          • You need to start brainwashing the smallest children to let them grow up into the role of the loyal citizen. Produce cartoon shows and text books teaching them from early age about their beloved Big Brother. Adapt curriculums to lead them into the direction you want. Give away Big Brother plushies to be embraced in the hearts of the smallest. One day, they grow up, but Big Brother will have an eternal place in their hearts.


          Why did I set the time frame for the governmental control to the industrial revolution?



          The GDR proved that you don't need digital surveillance to control the population. You can do it with the right tools and manpower.



          You need:



          • A cheap and endless supply of paper.


          • A filing structure that made it possible to retrieve and connect massive amounts of information.


          • A literacy rate of approx. 70-80% of the population to find enough suitable people to employ as inofficial collaborators.


          • A concept of the enemy or bogeyman. Somehow you have to explain why all this supervision is necessary.


          • A few decades of carefull propaganda and political indoctrination. The second generation growing up under Big Brother's watchfull eye will be brainwashed from birth.


          • A stable economy. The downfall of the GDR was the bad financial situation. Single cells of rebels never had any big impact on the GDR, it took the mass of the general population dissatisfied with their life circumstances to bring the system down.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Sep 19 at 14:40

























          answered Sep 19 at 11:28









          Elmy

          5,6941829




          5,6941829







          • 1




            Right. "Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR." Quite so. Again, the fundamental confusion here seems to be, not realizing that "1984" was, quite simply, ABOUT "the Soviet Union" - that was the whole point. (And, moreover, Huxley astutely realized that "we were just as bad and en route to the same place".)
            – Fattie
            Sep 19 at 15:25






          • 3




            @Fattie Huxely? Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World. 1984 was written by George Orwell. Both books posit a dystopian future and are often compared critically, so the confusion is understandable...
            – Oscar Bravo
            Sep 20 at 13:46











          • LOL thanks @OscarBravo ..
            – Fattie
            Sep 20 at 15:30










          • Same comment as on the other GDR answer: The Stasi was heavily reliant on (at the time) modern technology for its surveillance. So I’m not sure that how proves that it could be done without.
            – Konrad Rudolph
            Sep 21 at 15:08












          • 1




            Right. "Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR." Quite so. Again, the fundamental confusion here seems to be, not realizing that "1984" was, quite simply, ABOUT "the Soviet Union" - that was the whole point. (And, moreover, Huxley astutely realized that "we were just as bad and en route to the same place".)
            – Fattie
            Sep 19 at 15:25






          • 3




            @Fattie Huxely? Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World. 1984 was written by George Orwell. Both books posit a dystopian future and are often compared critically, so the confusion is understandable...
            – Oscar Bravo
            Sep 20 at 13:46











          • LOL thanks @OscarBravo ..
            – Fattie
            Sep 20 at 15:30










          • Same comment as on the other GDR answer: The Stasi was heavily reliant on (at the time) modern technology for its surveillance. So I’m not sure that how proves that it could be done without.
            – Konrad Rudolph
            Sep 21 at 15:08







          1




          1




          Right. "Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR." Quite so. Again, the fundamental confusion here seems to be, not realizing that "1984" was, quite simply, ABOUT "the Soviet Union" - that was the whole point. (And, moreover, Huxley astutely realized that "we were just as bad and en route to the same place".)
          – Fattie
          Sep 19 at 15:25




          Right. "Todays "fake news" are laughable peanuts compared to the propaganda in the GDR." Quite so. Again, the fundamental confusion here seems to be, not realizing that "1984" was, quite simply, ABOUT "the Soviet Union" - that was the whole point. (And, moreover, Huxley astutely realized that "we were just as bad and en route to the same place".)
          – Fattie
          Sep 19 at 15:25




          3




          3




          @Fattie Huxely? Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World. 1984 was written by George Orwell. Both books posit a dystopian future and are often compared critically, so the confusion is understandable...
          – Oscar Bravo
          Sep 20 at 13:46





          @Fattie Huxely? Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World. 1984 was written by George Orwell. Both books posit a dystopian future and are often compared critically, so the confusion is understandable...
          – Oscar Bravo
          Sep 20 at 13:46













          LOL thanks @OscarBravo ..
          – Fattie
          Sep 20 at 15:30




          LOL thanks @OscarBravo ..
          – Fattie
          Sep 20 at 15:30












          Same comment as on the other GDR answer: The Stasi was heavily reliant on (at the time) modern technology for its surveillance. So I’m not sure that how proves that it could be done without.
          – Konrad Rudolph
          Sep 21 at 15:08




          Same comment as on the other GDR answer: The Stasi was heavily reliant on (at the time) modern technology for its surveillance. So I’m not sure that how proves that it could be done without.
          – Konrad Rudolph
          Sep 21 at 15:08










          up vote
          12
          down vote













          A small enough community can achieve this level of surveilance with simple observation



          You need...



          • An insecure leader willing to dominate the tribe with violence.

          • Sycophantic members of the tribe willing to narc on their neighbors.

          This could be achieved with the first chieftan-oriented tribal social structures, which occured in the Neolithic period (10,000 BC).



          However, this same behavior could just as easily be familial (a father tyranically watching over his brood), which means you can achieve your goal as early as 300,000 BC.



          Unless...



          You don't define what you mean by "constant surveillance." If by that you mean "somebody else has eyes and ears on you 24/7" then I predict it will come available sometime around year 2150. We can monitor communications, some viewing habits, some transit, and we have cameras in many places, but the reality is that we can't monitor the general population 24/7 today.



          Conclusion



          The goal could be achieved by...



          • Family units as early as 300,000 BC (possibly earlier).

          • Tribal units as early as 10,000 BC.

          • Unless you really mean "complete surveillance," then it won't happen IMO until about 2150.



          Edit:

          A couple of commenters have suggested that we can achieve complete surveillance today. It's true that we have the technology to make cameras and microphones... but that's not actually the problem.



          We have such a deluge of data right now that people are actually contemplating using magnetic tape to try and handle the data flow (Spectrum, IEEE, 09/2018) and complete surveillance would require increasing that data flow 10,000 fold (at least 10,000 fold. How many houses and businesses have cameras in every room today? Answer: almost none. [35.7M houses in the U.S. alone, what, average 7 rooms + garage per house? That's probably small... 300 million new cameras+mics, just in the houses... just in the U.S.... And that's just houses....).



          People who think this is achievable with today's tech haven't thought the entire problem through. That data needs to be captured, transmitted, stored, evaluated... ugh (you'd need a third the country's population just to review all this data in a timely manner, the computational power to evaluate that much data realtime is appreciable). We're no where near the ability to handle that much second-by-second dataflow.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 3




            I think that all the technology we need for electronic mass surveillance already exists today. Micro cameras and microphones, automatic voice and face recognition, the big data processing technology to mine it all... everything available commercially over the shelf. The only reason we don't have 24/7 surveillance is because there isn't the political will to do it. What additional technological breakthrough do you think would be needed to not make it happen until 2150?
            – Philipp
            Sep 20 at 7:51







          • 4




            I'm afraid you're underestimating the technology we have now in place. There are already tools predicting behaviour based on the live camera footage, machine deep learning solutions that enable improve algorithms without creators realising what actually the computer is doing, big data mining to provide data for deep learning and all the technology needed to make a 24/7 surveillance (i.e. recording/monitoring everything that is going on in every single home and in the streets). We're actually better at this than what was suggested in Orwell's novel.
            – Ister
            Sep 20 at 7:52










          • The real limit on 24/7 surveillance is the cost and the amount of data produced- just too much irrelevant data to sort through. The Chinese Government would love to surveillance 24/7 but they are coming close is with the Social Rating judge you and your family on standards that their leaders breach all the time and blanket online and camera coverage.
            – user2617804
            Sep 22 at 8:52














          up vote
          12
          down vote













          A small enough community can achieve this level of surveilance with simple observation



          You need...



          • An insecure leader willing to dominate the tribe with violence.

          • Sycophantic members of the tribe willing to narc on their neighbors.

          This could be achieved with the first chieftan-oriented tribal social structures, which occured in the Neolithic period (10,000 BC).



          However, this same behavior could just as easily be familial (a father tyranically watching over his brood), which means you can achieve your goal as early as 300,000 BC.



          Unless...



          You don't define what you mean by "constant surveillance." If by that you mean "somebody else has eyes and ears on you 24/7" then I predict it will come available sometime around year 2150. We can monitor communications, some viewing habits, some transit, and we have cameras in many places, but the reality is that we can't monitor the general population 24/7 today.



          Conclusion



          The goal could be achieved by...



          • Family units as early as 300,000 BC (possibly earlier).

          • Tribal units as early as 10,000 BC.

          • Unless you really mean "complete surveillance," then it won't happen IMO until about 2150.



          Edit:

          A couple of commenters have suggested that we can achieve complete surveillance today. It's true that we have the technology to make cameras and microphones... but that's not actually the problem.



          We have such a deluge of data right now that people are actually contemplating using magnetic tape to try and handle the data flow (Spectrum, IEEE, 09/2018) and complete surveillance would require increasing that data flow 10,000 fold (at least 10,000 fold. How many houses and businesses have cameras in every room today? Answer: almost none. [35.7M houses in the U.S. alone, what, average 7 rooms + garage per house? That's probably small... 300 million new cameras+mics, just in the houses... just in the U.S.... And that's just houses....).



          People who think this is achievable with today's tech haven't thought the entire problem through. That data needs to be captured, transmitted, stored, evaluated... ugh (you'd need a third the country's population just to review all this data in a timely manner, the computational power to evaluate that much data realtime is appreciable). We're no where near the ability to handle that much second-by-second dataflow.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 3




            I think that all the technology we need for electronic mass surveillance already exists today. Micro cameras and microphones, automatic voice and face recognition, the big data processing technology to mine it all... everything available commercially over the shelf. The only reason we don't have 24/7 surveillance is because there isn't the political will to do it. What additional technological breakthrough do you think would be needed to not make it happen until 2150?
            – Philipp
            Sep 20 at 7:51







          • 4




            I'm afraid you're underestimating the technology we have now in place. There are already tools predicting behaviour based on the live camera footage, machine deep learning solutions that enable improve algorithms without creators realising what actually the computer is doing, big data mining to provide data for deep learning and all the technology needed to make a 24/7 surveillance (i.e. recording/monitoring everything that is going on in every single home and in the streets). We're actually better at this than what was suggested in Orwell's novel.
            – Ister
            Sep 20 at 7:52










          • The real limit on 24/7 surveillance is the cost and the amount of data produced- just too much irrelevant data to sort through. The Chinese Government would love to surveillance 24/7 but they are coming close is with the Social Rating judge you and your family on standards that their leaders breach all the time and blanket online and camera coverage.
            – user2617804
            Sep 22 at 8:52












          up vote
          12
          down vote










          up vote
          12
          down vote









          A small enough community can achieve this level of surveilance with simple observation



          You need...



          • An insecure leader willing to dominate the tribe with violence.

          • Sycophantic members of the tribe willing to narc on their neighbors.

          This could be achieved with the first chieftan-oriented tribal social structures, which occured in the Neolithic period (10,000 BC).



          However, this same behavior could just as easily be familial (a father tyranically watching over his brood), which means you can achieve your goal as early as 300,000 BC.



          Unless...



          You don't define what you mean by "constant surveillance." If by that you mean "somebody else has eyes and ears on you 24/7" then I predict it will come available sometime around year 2150. We can monitor communications, some viewing habits, some transit, and we have cameras in many places, but the reality is that we can't monitor the general population 24/7 today.



          Conclusion



          The goal could be achieved by...



          • Family units as early as 300,000 BC (possibly earlier).

          • Tribal units as early as 10,000 BC.

          • Unless you really mean "complete surveillance," then it won't happen IMO until about 2150.



          Edit:

          A couple of commenters have suggested that we can achieve complete surveillance today. It's true that we have the technology to make cameras and microphones... but that's not actually the problem.



          We have such a deluge of data right now that people are actually contemplating using magnetic tape to try and handle the data flow (Spectrum, IEEE, 09/2018) and complete surveillance would require increasing that data flow 10,000 fold (at least 10,000 fold. How many houses and businesses have cameras in every room today? Answer: almost none. [35.7M houses in the U.S. alone, what, average 7 rooms + garage per house? That's probably small... 300 million new cameras+mics, just in the houses... just in the U.S.... And that's just houses....).



          People who think this is achievable with today's tech haven't thought the entire problem through. That data needs to be captured, transmitted, stored, evaluated... ugh (you'd need a third the country's population just to review all this data in a timely manner, the computational power to evaluate that much data realtime is appreciable). We're no where near the ability to handle that much second-by-second dataflow.






          share|improve this answer














          A small enough community can achieve this level of surveilance with simple observation



          You need...



          • An insecure leader willing to dominate the tribe with violence.

          • Sycophantic members of the tribe willing to narc on their neighbors.

          This could be achieved with the first chieftan-oriented tribal social structures, which occured in the Neolithic period (10,000 BC).



          However, this same behavior could just as easily be familial (a father tyranically watching over his brood), which means you can achieve your goal as early as 300,000 BC.



          Unless...



          You don't define what you mean by "constant surveillance." If by that you mean "somebody else has eyes and ears on you 24/7" then I predict it will come available sometime around year 2150. We can monitor communications, some viewing habits, some transit, and we have cameras in many places, but the reality is that we can't monitor the general population 24/7 today.



          Conclusion



          The goal could be achieved by...



          • Family units as early as 300,000 BC (possibly earlier).

          • Tribal units as early as 10,000 BC.

          • Unless you really mean "complete surveillance," then it won't happen IMO until about 2150.



          Edit:

          A couple of commenters have suggested that we can achieve complete surveillance today. It's true that we have the technology to make cameras and microphones... but that's not actually the problem.



          We have such a deluge of data right now that people are actually contemplating using magnetic tape to try and handle the data flow (Spectrum, IEEE, 09/2018) and complete surveillance would require increasing that data flow 10,000 fold (at least 10,000 fold. How many houses and businesses have cameras in every room today? Answer: almost none. [35.7M houses in the U.S. alone, what, average 7 rooms + garage per house? That's probably small... 300 million new cameras+mics, just in the houses... just in the U.S.... And that's just houses....).



          People who think this is achievable with today's tech haven't thought the entire problem through. That data needs to be captured, transmitted, stored, evaluated... ugh (you'd need a third the country's population just to review all this data in a timely manner, the computational power to evaluate that much data realtime is appreciable). We're no where near the ability to handle that much second-by-second dataflow.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Sep 20 at 23:55

























          answered Sep 19 at 20:03









          JBH

          35.3k581168




          35.3k581168







          • 3




            I think that all the technology we need for electronic mass surveillance already exists today. Micro cameras and microphones, automatic voice and face recognition, the big data processing technology to mine it all... everything available commercially over the shelf. The only reason we don't have 24/7 surveillance is because there isn't the political will to do it. What additional technological breakthrough do you think would be needed to not make it happen until 2150?
            – Philipp
            Sep 20 at 7:51







          • 4




            I'm afraid you're underestimating the technology we have now in place. There are already tools predicting behaviour based on the live camera footage, machine deep learning solutions that enable improve algorithms without creators realising what actually the computer is doing, big data mining to provide data for deep learning and all the technology needed to make a 24/7 surveillance (i.e. recording/monitoring everything that is going on in every single home and in the streets). We're actually better at this than what was suggested in Orwell's novel.
            – Ister
            Sep 20 at 7:52










          • The real limit on 24/7 surveillance is the cost and the amount of data produced- just too much irrelevant data to sort through. The Chinese Government would love to surveillance 24/7 but they are coming close is with the Social Rating judge you and your family on standards that their leaders breach all the time and blanket online and camera coverage.
            – user2617804
            Sep 22 at 8:52












          • 3




            I think that all the technology we need for electronic mass surveillance already exists today. Micro cameras and microphones, automatic voice and face recognition, the big data processing technology to mine it all... everything available commercially over the shelf. The only reason we don't have 24/7 surveillance is because there isn't the political will to do it. What additional technological breakthrough do you think would be needed to not make it happen until 2150?
            – Philipp
            Sep 20 at 7:51







          • 4




            I'm afraid you're underestimating the technology we have now in place. There are already tools predicting behaviour based on the live camera footage, machine deep learning solutions that enable improve algorithms without creators realising what actually the computer is doing, big data mining to provide data for deep learning and all the technology needed to make a 24/7 surveillance (i.e. recording/monitoring everything that is going on in every single home and in the streets). We're actually better at this than what was suggested in Orwell's novel.
            – Ister
            Sep 20 at 7:52










          • The real limit on 24/7 surveillance is the cost and the amount of data produced- just too much irrelevant data to sort through. The Chinese Government would love to surveillance 24/7 but they are coming close is with the Social Rating judge you and your family on standards that their leaders breach all the time and blanket online and camera coverage.
            – user2617804
            Sep 22 at 8:52







          3




          3




          I think that all the technology we need for electronic mass surveillance already exists today. Micro cameras and microphones, automatic voice and face recognition, the big data processing technology to mine it all... everything available commercially over the shelf. The only reason we don't have 24/7 surveillance is because there isn't the political will to do it. What additional technological breakthrough do you think would be needed to not make it happen until 2150?
          – Philipp
          Sep 20 at 7:51





          I think that all the technology we need for electronic mass surveillance already exists today. Micro cameras and microphones, automatic voice and face recognition, the big data processing technology to mine it all... everything available commercially over the shelf. The only reason we don't have 24/7 surveillance is because there isn't the political will to do it. What additional technological breakthrough do you think would be needed to not make it happen until 2150?
          – Philipp
          Sep 20 at 7:51





          4




          4




          I'm afraid you're underestimating the technology we have now in place. There are already tools predicting behaviour based on the live camera footage, machine deep learning solutions that enable improve algorithms without creators realising what actually the computer is doing, big data mining to provide data for deep learning and all the technology needed to make a 24/7 surveillance (i.e. recording/monitoring everything that is going on in every single home and in the streets). We're actually better at this than what was suggested in Orwell's novel.
          – Ister
          Sep 20 at 7:52




          I'm afraid you're underestimating the technology we have now in place. There are already tools predicting behaviour based on the live camera footage, machine deep learning solutions that enable improve algorithms without creators realising what actually the computer is doing, big data mining to provide data for deep learning and all the technology needed to make a 24/7 surveillance (i.e. recording/monitoring everything that is going on in every single home and in the streets). We're actually better at this than what was suggested in Orwell's novel.
          – Ister
          Sep 20 at 7:52












          The real limit on 24/7 surveillance is the cost and the amount of data produced- just too much irrelevant data to sort through. The Chinese Government would love to surveillance 24/7 but they are coming close is with the Social Rating judge you and your family on standards that their leaders breach all the time and blanket online and camera coverage.
          – user2617804
          Sep 22 at 8:52




          The real limit on 24/7 surveillance is the cost and the amount of data produced- just too much irrelevant data to sort through. The Chinese Government would love to surveillance 24/7 but they are coming close is with the Social Rating judge you and your family on standards that their leaders breach all the time and blanket online and camera coverage.
          – user2617804
          Sep 22 at 8:52










          up vote
          8
          down vote













          I personally think you could pull this off even as early as the Bronze age if you are dedicated enough to it. Granted it will make the whole process less centralized and efficient, but you didn't make that one of the requirements.



          What's to prevent for example the Assyrian king from setting up a Stasi like system? What does he need? A bureacracy capable of handling the information? I think it's possible.



          There was less literacy in those times, but there are also factors that allow that to be a non-issue. For example the spies don't have to be literate, only the people penning down and processing the information have to be. The area to be monitored is also smaller since most people live in or close to cities.



          All the Assyrian king has to do is set up a spy system in every city with a loyal guy in charge. It's of course less efficient, but there are also factors that make it harder to revolt in ancient times.






          share|improve this answer
























            up vote
            8
            down vote













            I personally think you could pull this off even as early as the Bronze age if you are dedicated enough to it. Granted it will make the whole process less centralized and efficient, but you didn't make that one of the requirements.



            What's to prevent for example the Assyrian king from setting up a Stasi like system? What does he need? A bureacracy capable of handling the information? I think it's possible.



            There was less literacy in those times, but there are also factors that allow that to be a non-issue. For example the spies don't have to be literate, only the people penning down and processing the information have to be. The area to be monitored is also smaller since most people live in or close to cities.



            All the Assyrian king has to do is set up a spy system in every city with a loyal guy in charge. It's of course less efficient, but there are also factors that make it harder to revolt in ancient times.






            share|improve this answer






















              up vote
              8
              down vote










              up vote
              8
              down vote









              I personally think you could pull this off even as early as the Bronze age if you are dedicated enough to it. Granted it will make the whole process less centralized and efficient, but you didn't make that one of the requirements.



              What's to prevent for example the Assyrian king from setting up a Stasi like system? What does he need? A bureacracy capable of handling the information? I think it's possible.



              There was less literacy in those times, but there are also factors that allow that to be a non-issue. For example the spies don't have to be literate, only the people penning down and processing the information have to be. The area to be monitored is also smaller since most people live in or close to cities.



              All the Assyrian king has to do is set up a spy system in every city with a loyal guy in charge. It's of course less efficient, but there are also factors that make it harder to revolt in ancient times.






              share|improve this answer












              I personally think you could pull this off even as early as the Bronze age if you are dedicated enough to it. Granted it will make the whole process less centralized and efficient, but you didn't make that one of the requirements.



              What's to prevent for example the Assyrian king from setting up a Stasi like system? What does he need? A bureacracy capable of handling the information? I think it's possible.



              There was less literacy in those times, but there are also factors that allow that to be a non-issue. For example the spies don't have to be literate, only the people penning down and processing the information have to be. The area to be monitored is also smaller since most people live in or close to cities.



              All the Assyrian king has to do is set up a spy system in every city with a loyal guy in charge. It's of course less efficient, but there are also factors that make it harder to revolt in ancient times.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered Sep 19 at 15:31









              TheShadowOfZama

              1,32937




              1,32937




















                  up vote
                  6
                  down vote













                  It depends I guess.



                  If the telescreens are a mandatory attribute, this would put the earliest possible time somewhere in the beginning of the 20th century, when television and a lot of other needed or supporting technology (like transistor tubes) were invented. A nice read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_television



                  The projection of a fictitious but omnipresent leader would have been possible by any society that was able to inform their subjects that there was a leader in the first place. The lack of modern (mass) media would make such a feat easier, not harder. It is in fact easier for us to ascertain that Julius Caesar was real than it ever was for Roman commoners living in the outskirts of the empire. A cynic could even argue that any society that has religion has this very ability. Denying the existence of [enter religious leader/prophet/messiah here] will in some places in the world lead to the same result as doubting big brother in Orwell's 1984. This can be observed throughout history.



                  The last one is a hard one as it touches on a system of mass surveillance and a huge network of informants. Surely in 1984 (the year) they had this down to an art in the DDR. This was an (on a whole) analogue, paper based system, that could have been contrived by any civilization that had literacy and a bureaucracy. To what extend this was achievable in practice is hard to tell (for me at least), it would be a nice question for history.se I would think.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    up vote
                    6
                    down vote













                    It depends I guess.



                    If the telescreens are a mandatory attribute, this would put the earliest possible time somewhere in the beginning of the 20th century, when television and a lot of other needed or supporting technology (like transistor tubes) were invented. A nice read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_television



                    The projection of a fictitious but omnipresent leader would have been possible by any society that was able to inform their subjects that there was a leader in the first place. The lack of modern (mass) media would make such a feat easier, not harder. It is in fact easier for us to ascertain that Julius Caesar was real than it ever was for Roman commoners living in the outskirts of the empire. A cynic could even argue that any society that has religion has this very ability. Denying the existence of [enter religious leader/prophet/messiah here] will in some places in the world lead to the same result as doubting big brother in Orwell's 1984. This can be observed throughout history.



                    The last one is a hard one as it touches on a system of mass surveillance and a huge network of informants. Surely in 1984 (the year) they had this down to an art in the DDR. This was an (on a whole) analogue, paper based system, that could have been contrived by any civilization that had literacy and a bureaucracy. To what extend this was achievable in practice is hard to tell (for me at least), it would be a nice question for history.se I would think.






                    share|improve this answer
























                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      6
                      down vote









                      It depends I guess.



                      If the telescreens are a mandatory attribute, this would put the earliest possible time somewhere in the beginning of the 20th century, when television and a lot of other needed or supporting technology (like transistor tubes) were invented. A nice read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_television



                      The projection of a fictitious but omnipresent leader would have been possible by any society that was able to inform their subjects that there was a leader in the first place. The lack of modern (mass) media would make such a feat easier, not harder. It is in fact easier for us to ascertain that Julius Caesar was real than it ever was for Roman commoners living in the outskirts of the empire. A cynic could even argue that any society that has religion has this very ability. Denying the existence of [enter religious leader/prophet/messiah here] will in some places in the world lead to the same result as doubting big brother in Orwell's 1984. This can be observed throughout history.



                      The last one is a hard one as it touches on a system of mass surveillance and a huge network of informants. Surely in 1984 (the year) they had this down to an art in the DDR. This was an (on a whole) analogue, paper based system, that could have been contrived by any civilization that had literacy and a bureaucracy. To what extend this was achievable in practice is hard to tell (for me at least), it would be a nice question for history.se I would think.






                      share|improve this answer














                      It depends I guess.



                      If the telescreens are a mandatory attribute, this would put the earliest possible time somewhere in the beginning of the 20th century, when television and a lot of other needed or supporting technology (like transistor tubes) were invented. A nice read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_television



                      The projection of a fictitious but omnipresent leader would have been possible by any society that was able to inform their subjects that there was a leader in the first place. The lack of modern (mass) media would make such a feat easier, not harder. It is in fact easier for us to ascertain that Julius Caesar was real than it ever was for Roman commoners living in the outskirts of the empire. A cynic could even argue that any society that has religion has this very ability. Denying the existence of [enter religious leader/prophet/messiah here] will in some places in the world lead to the same result as doubting big brother in Orwell's 1984. This can be observed throughout history.



                      The last one is a hard one as it touches on a system of mass surveillance and a huge network of informants. Surely in 1984 (the year) they had this down to an art in the DDR. This was an (on a whole) analogue, paper based system, that could have been contrived by any civilization that had literacy and a bureaucracy. To what extend this was achievable in practice is hard to tell (for me at least), it would be a nice question for history.se I would think.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Sep 19 at 12:35

























                      answered Sep 19 at 11:49









                      Douwe

                      1,26515




                      1,26515




















                          up vote
                          4
                          down vote













                          The purpose of surveillance is control of population/society....



                          The "Big Brother" has been around for all of human history.



                          Tree/Cave/Tribal chiefs/shamans provided a social/dogma code to control/master the population and derive benefits shells/stones/bronze...gold, food/security... procreation....



                          Political, religious, economic... dogma-affect of individuals will effect social position/etiquette... of individuals. Dogma-affect always provides persons with justifications for life/death, inclusion/exclusion, believe/ignore, value/valueless....



                          From this "Big Brother" perspective of Fear Uncertainty Doubt Obfuscation (FUDO...?), all dogma is a model for surveillance based on a primitive FUDO model used by all social systems that seek to oppress individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity.... The implied; human society, though understanding the iniquity of disparity, remains lethally and terminally unchanged for about 1,000,000 years.



                          So; Remaining under surveillance, in the stone-age, iron-age, tech-age... by BigBrother-FUDO, remains persistently in control of life and evolution for people & society. BigBrother-FUDO dogma assures primitives survival, human tragedy, and eventually extinction.



                          Humanity can evolve only after humanity learns to govern BigBrother-FUDO globally. New political, economic, social, personal... life models can be used a/o evolved, but require an end of BigBrother-FUDO oppression of the individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity....



                          Start with ending national government political, religious, economic, social... reactionary dogmas, then end economic disparity, and provide minimum income levels, free healthcare & education.... Humanity no longer needs BigBrother-FUDO BabaYaga, PèreMalfait, Satan... for survival & evolution.






                          share|improve this answer




















                          • Welcome to Worldbuilding! Good job on this answer, +1. My question is, would an early society be able to use constant surveillance, in a world before cameras, GPS, and microphones? I think it would be difficult to monitor everything people are doing without electronics.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 19 at 18:15










                          • Constant surveillance is like perfect security, it never can happen. Humanity will out. Humans are not born dogma affected sheeple, nurture forced comply with the accepted dogma reality, which is never actuality.
                            – user22501
                            Sep 20 at 3:39










                          • So you are saying 1984 will never happen to the level where surveillance is constant? I would tend to disagree, regimes already force people to comply, and a lot of human history has involved forcing people to do stuff against their will. Humans don't have to know about the surveillance anyway. In 1984 people might think that the telescreens were recording them, but there was never any proof. People aren't going to revolt against surveillance they don't know about.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 20 at 11:37














                          up vote
                          4
                          down vote













                          The purpose of surveillance is control of population/society....



                          The "Big Brother" has been around for all of human history.



                          Tree/Cave/Tribal chiefs/shamans provided a social/dogma code to control/master the population and derive benefits shells/stones/bronze...gold, food/security... procreation....



                          Political, religious, economic... dogma-affect of individuals will effect social position/etiquette... of individuals. Dogma-affect always provides persons with justifications for life/death, inclusion/exclusion, believe/ignore, value/valueless....



                          From this "Big Brother" perspective of Fear Uncertainty Doubt Obfuscation (FUDO...?), all dogma is a model for surveillance based on a primitive FUDO model used by all social systems that seek to oppress individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity.... The implied; human society, though understanding the iniquity of disparity, remains lethally and terminally unchanged for about 1,000,000 years.



                          So; Remaining under surveillance, in the stone-age, iron-age, tech-age... by BigBrother-FUDO, remains persistently in control of life and evolution for people & society. BigBrother-FUDO dogma assures primitives survival, human tragedy, and eventually extinction.



                          Humanity can evolve only after humanity learns to govern BigBrother-FUDO globally. New political, economic, social, personal... life models can be used a/o evolved, but require an end of BigBrother-FUDO oppression of the individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity....



                          Start with ending national government political, religious, economic, social... reactionary dogmas, then end economic disparity, and provide minimum income levels, free healthcare & education.... Humanity no longer needs BigBrother-FUDO BabaYaga, PèreMalfait, Satan... for survival & evolution.






                          share|improve this answer




















                          • Welcome to Worldbuilding! Good job on this answer, +1. My question is, would an early society be able to use constant surveillance, in a world before cameras, GPS, and microphones? I think it would be difficult to monitor everything people are doing without electronics.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 19 at 18:15










                          • Constant surveillance is like perfect security, it never can happen. Humanity will out. Humans are not born dogma affected sheeple, nurture forced comply with the accepted dogma reality, which is never actuality.
                            – user22501
                            Sep 20 at 3:39










                          • So you are saying 1984 will never happen to the level where surveillance is constant? I would tend to disagree, regimes already force people to comply, and a lot of human history has involved forcing people to do stuff against their will. Humans don't have to know about the surveillance anyway. In 1984 people might think that the telescreens were recording them, but there was never any proof. People aren't going to revolt against surveillance they don't know about.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 20 at 11:37












                          up vote
                          4
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          4
                          down vote









                          The purpose of surveillance is control of population/society....



                          The "Big Brother" has been around for all of human history.



                          Tree/Cave/Tribal chiefs/shamans provided a social/dogma code to control/master the population and derive benefits shells/stones/bronze...gold, food/security... procreation....



                          Political, religious, economic... dogma-affect of individuals will effect social position/etiquette... of individuals. Dogma-affect always provides persons with justifications for life/death, inclusion/exclusion, believe/ignore, value/valueless....



                          From this "Big Brother" perspective of Fear Uncertainty Doubt Obfuscation (FUDO...?), all dogma is a model for surveillance based on a primitive FUDO model used by all social systems that seek to oppress individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity.... The implied; human society, though understanding the iniquity of disparity, remains lethally and terminally unchanged for about 1,000,000 years.



                          So; Remaining under surveillance, in the stone-age, iron-age, tech-age... by BigBrother-FUDO, remains persistently in control of life and evolution for people & society. BigBrother-FUDO dogma assures primitives survival, human tragedy, and eventually extinction.



                          Humanity can evolve only after humanity learns to govern BigBrother-FUDO globally. New political, economic, social, personal... life models can be used a/o evolved, but require an end of BigBrother-FUDO oppression of the individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity....



                          Start with ending national government political, religious, economic, social... reactionary dogmas, then end economic disparity, and provide minimum income levels, free healthcare & education.... Humanity no longer needs BigBrother-FUDO BabaYaga, PèreMalfait, Satan... for survival & evolution.






                          share|improve this answer












                          The purpose of surveillance is control of population/society....



                          The "Big Brother" has been around for all of human history.



                          Tree/Cave/Tribal chiefs/shamans provided a social/dogma code to control/master the population and derive benefits shells/stones/bronze...gold, food/security... procreation....



                          Political, religious, economic... dogma-affect of individuals will effect social position/etiquette... of individuals. Dogma-affect always provides persons with justifications for life/death, inclusion/exclusion, believe/ignore, value/valueless....



                          From this "Big Brother" perspective of Fear Uncertainty Doubt Obfuscation (FUDO...?), all dogma is a model for surveillance based on a primitive FUDO model used by all social systems that seek to oppress individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity.... The implied; human society, though understanding the iniquity of disparity, remains lethally and terminally unchanged for about 1,000,000 years.



                          So; Remaining under surveillance, in the stone-age, iron-age, tech-age... by BigBrother-FUDO, remains persistently in control of life and evolution for people & society. BigBrother-FUDO dogma assures primitives survival, human tragedy, and eventually extinction.



                          Humanity can evolve only after humanity learns to govern BigBrother-FUDO globally. New political, economic, social, personal... life models can be used a/o evolved, but require an end of BigBrother-FUDO oppression of the individual expression, authenticity, creativity, curiosity....



                          Start with ending national government political, religious, economic, social... reactionary dogmas, then end economic disparity, and provide minimum income levels, free healthcare & education.... Humanity no longer needs BigBrother-FUDO BabaYaga, PèreMalfait, Satan... for survival & evolution.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered Sep 19 at 17:39









                          user22501

                          414




                          414











                          • Welcome to Worldbuilding! Good job on this answer, +1. My question is, would an early society be able to use constant surveillance, in a world before cameras, GPS, and microphones? I think it would be difficult to monitor everything people are doing without electronics.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 19 at 18:15










                          • Constant surveillance is like perfect security, it never can happen. Humanity will out. Humans are not born dogma affected sheeple, nurture forced comply with the accepted dogma reality, which is never actuality.
                            – user22501
                            Sep 20 at 3:39










                          • So you are saying 1984 will never happen to the level where surveillance is constant? I would tend to disagree, regimes already force people to comply, and a lot of human history has involved forcing people to do stuff against their will. Humans don't have to know about the surveillance anyway. In 1984 people might think that the telescreens were recording them, but there was never any proof. People aren't going to revolt against surveillance they don't know about.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 20 at 11:37
















                          • Welcome to Worldbuilding! Good job on this answer, +1. My question is, would an early society be able to use constant surveillance, in a world before cameras, GPS, and microphones? I think it would be difficult to monitor everything people are doing without electronics.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 19 at 18:15










                          • Constant surveillance is like perfect security, it never can happen. Humanity will out. Humans are not born dogma affected sheeple, nurture forced comply with the accepted dogma reality, which is never actuality.
                            – user22501
                            Sep 20 at 3:39










                          • So you are saying 1984 will never happen to the level where surveillance is constant? I would tend to disagree, regimes already force people to comply, and a lot of human history has involved forcing people to do stuff against their will. Humans don't have to know about the surveillance anyway. In 1984 people might think that the telescreens were recording them, but there was never any proof. People aren't going to revolt against surveillance they don't know about.
                            – John Locke
                            Sep 20 at 11:37















                          Welcome to Worldbuilding! Good job on this answer, +1. My question is, would an early society be able to use constant surveillance, in a world before cameras, GPS, and microphones? I think it would be difficult to monitor everything people are doing without electronics.
                          – John Locke
                          Sep 19 at 18:15




                          Welcome to Worldbuilding! Good job on this answer, +1. My question is, would an early society be able to use constant surveillance, in a world before cameras, GPS, and microphones? I think it would be difficult to monitor everything people are doing without electronics.
                          – John Locke
                          Sep 19 at 18:15












                          Constant surveillance is like perfect security, it never can happen. Humanity will out. Humans are not born dogma affected sheeple, nurture forced comply with the accepted dogma reality, which is never actuality.
                          – user22501
                          Sep 20 at 3:39




                          Constant surveillance is like perfect security, it never can happen. Humanity will out. Humans are not born dogma affected sheeple, nurture forced comply with the accepted dogma reality, which is never actuality.
                          – user22501
                          Sep 20 at 3:39












                          So you are saying 1984 will never happen to the level where surveillance is constant? I would tend to disagree, regimes already force people to comply, and a lot of human history has involved forcing people to do stuff against their will. Humans don't have to know about the surveillance anyway. In 1984 people might think that the telescreens were recording them, but there was never any proof. People aren't going to revolt against surveillance they don't know about.
                          – John Locke
                          Sep 20 at 11:37




                          So you are saying 1984 will never happen to the level where surveillance is constant? I would tend to disagree, regimes already force people to comply, and a lot of human history has involved forcing people to do stuff against their will. Humans don't have to know about the surveillance anyway. In 1984 people might think that the telescreens were recording them, but there was never any proof. People aren't going to revolt against surveillance they don't know about.
                          – John Locke
                          Sep 20 at 11:37










                          up vote
                          4
                          down vote













                          I'm going to say 1086. That's when William the Conqueror compiled the Domesday Book listing every piece of land and every land-owning family in the whole of England. Rebel against him, and he knew who you were, where you lived, and where your family and serfs lived. Stay loyal to him, and he (or his taxmen) knew to the penny how much you owed him and what your commitments were to his army.



                          You could make an argument for the Romans starting it, with their censuses. (Remember why Joseph and Mary were travelling to Bethlehem in the first place.) There wasn't never really a follow-up from the Romans though to use it as a serious means of controlling the people on their lists, whereas the Domesday Book was expressly intended for that purpose, so that William could demand taxes and exercise control across his new kingdom.






                          share|improve this answer
























                            up vote
                            4
                            down vote













                            I'm going to say 1086. That's when William the Conqueror compiled the Domesday Book listing every piece of land and every land-owning family in the whole of England. Rebel against him, and he knew who you were, where you lived, and where your family and serfs lived. Stay loyal to him, and he (or his taxmen) knew to the penny how much you owed him and what your commitments were to his army.



                            You could make an argument for the Romans starting it, with their censuses. (Remember why Joseph and Mary were travelling to Bethlehem in the first place.) There wasn't never really a follow-up from the Romans though to use it as a serious means of controlling the people on their lists, whereas the Domesday Book was expressly intended for that purpose, so that William could demand taxes and exercise control across his new kingdom.






                            share|improve this answer






















                              up vote
                              4
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              4
                              down vote









                              I'm going to say 1086. That's when William the Conqueror compiled the Domesday Book listing every piece of land and every land-owning family in the whole of England. Rebel against him, and he knew who you were, where you lived, and where your family and serfs lived. Stay loyal to him, and he (or his taxmen) knew to the penny how much you owed him and what your commitments were to his army.



                              You could make an argument for the Romans starting it, with their censuses. (Remember why Joseph and Mary were travelling to Bethlehem in the first place.) There wasn't never really a follow-up from the Romans though to use it as a serious means of controlling the people on their lists, whereas the Domesday Book was expressly intended for that purpose, so that William could demand taxes and exercise control across his new kingdom.






                              share|improve this answer












                              I'm going to say 1086. That's when William the Conqueror compiled the Domesday Book listing every piece of land and every land-owning family in the whole of England. Rebel against him, and he knew who you were, where you lived, and where your family and serfs lived. Stay loyal to him, and he (or his taxmen) knew to the penny how much you owed him and what your commitments were to his army.



                              You could make an argument for the Romans starting it, with their censuses. (Remember why Joseph and Mary were travelling to Bethlehem in the first place.) There wasn't never really a follow-up from the Romans though to use it as a serious means of controlling the people on their lists, whereas the Domesday Book was expressly intended for that purpose, so that William could demand taxes and exercise control across his new kingdom.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered Sep 19 at 19:45









                              Graham

                              9,8961251




                              9,8961251




















                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote













                                  Surveillance is possible but not all that feasible with the advent of audio transmission. Controlling and monitoring someone's every move let alone a whole nation or even city would be a herculean task with just analog audio signals or even analog video transmission as it existed in decades past.
                                  I would posit that information-era technology and communications is the earliest a ruling power could surveil a large population like in 1984.



                                  The kind of control you reference via big brother is only really possible through mass communication, repeating messaging to a populace until the eventual adoption of those values requires media or communications that can be passed on reliably every day.



                                  Reliably meaning that there is as little loss in translation as possible, the message is exact and indelible. Things such as town criers or other social messaging would make it extremely unlikely for totalitarian social control to be successful.



                                  From this we can assert that everyone hearing/reading/seeing the same message leads to it being self repeating socially, there is no social representative per-se, no messenger just the message at the initial point of contact with society. The message then has a high likelihood of being self-replicating
                                  if it is propagandized effectively creating and/or resolving emotions of the populace.



                                  Therefore the only time it enters a likelihood of success is with the following conditions; following the technological advance of our own history this is the earliest point at which this type of social control can be enforced.



                                  The following technological states need to be true at a minimum for a high chance of succeeding:



                                  1) The printing press exists



                                  2) Most of the population dwells in cities or easy-to-govern population centers



                                  3) Industrial production is on track to become the majority of the labor force



                                  The following civic and social conditions need to be true:



                                  1) The population has a basic literacy



                                  2) The printing press is efficiently controlled by the ruling power



                                  3) Ownership over print media is strictly controlled



                                  4) Populace has sufficient access to food



                                  Enforcing education to a state standard is not absolutely necessary, without it the populace needs only limited education and constant access to food and comforts. If they are 'comfortable enough' then they can be occupied with non-survival related dilemmas.



                                  Notice that likelihood is the word in all of this, a ruling power can control a population with access to resources in order to fund a policing body large enough to control a population, this of course is much easier with a small population. For example to the latter, a rich and paranoid city-state with the population of renaissance venice and the wealth of Mansa-Musa of Mali.



                                  If you want to know the whole story about this kind of control read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, there is also a documentary.






                                  share|improve this answer
















                                  • 1




                                    Are you sure that sufficient food and literacy are necessary? If most of the population is illiterate, secret communication is just that much harder. The ability of a small number of elites to read mean they can control those who can't (For example, see Animal Farm, which was also written by Orwell). As for food, in modern dystopias and in books like 1984, much of the population is starving. Is sufficient food needed just to begin taking over ("If you're starving, join our country, we have food", and then you take over and slowly lower food rations), or do you always need sufficient food?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 19 at 18:23










                                  • Starvation is common throughout most rebellions in history, 'sufficient' food is relative. 'Let them eat cake!' The average caloric intake for people in much older versions of society would be around 1000 calories, whereas by today's standard a man of average height should have an intake of 2000 to maintain current weight. So long as food is always reliably available there should be a lower chance of rebellion. It is also true that having literacy comes with risk of subversion, I maintain that it is a unavoidable flaw for social control output scaling up.
                                    – J T
                                    Sep 20 at 6:49







                                  • 1




                                    Why do you think that population-wide literature is necessary for controlling a population in the first place?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 20 at 11:50






                                  • 1




                                    @DaBaum "Monitoring someone's every move... would be a herculean task." You seem to have grasped this better than all of the other answers. "Big Brother" isn't limited by technology or social status, but by the sheer magnitude of man-hours it takes to sift through all of the data generated by an entire population's daily lives! I mean, Winston in the book was caught because he was extremely careless, not because Big Brother kept particularly good tabs on him.
                                    – Michael W.
                                    Sep 20 at 15:57






                                  • 1




                                    Ok, so each person being able to read means they will see the laws, not hear them from word of mouth, which could mix them up. Is that what you're saying?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 21 at 10:35














                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote













                                  Surveillance is possible but not all that feasible with the advent of audio transmission. Controlling and monitoring someone's every move let alone a whole nation or even city would be a herculean task with just analog audio signals or even analog video transmission as it existed in decades past.
                                  I would posit that information-era technology and communications is the earliest a ruling power could surveil a large population like in 1984.



                                  The kind of control you reference via big brother is only really possible through mass communication, repeating messaging to a populace until the eventual adoption of those values requires media or communications that can be passed on reliably every day.



                                  Reliably meaning that there is as little loss in translation as possible, the message is exact and indelible. Things such as town criers or other social messaging would make it extremely unlikely for totalitarian social control to be successful.



                                  From this we can assert that everyone hearing/reading/seeing the same message leads to it being self repeating socially, there is no social representative per-se, no messenger just the message at the initial point of contact with society. The message then has a high likelihood of being self-replicating
                                  if it is propagandized effectively creating and/or resolving emotions of the populace.



                                  Therefore the only time it enters a likelihood of success is with the following conditions; following the technological advance of our own history this is the earliest point at which this type of social control can be enforced.



                                  The following technological states need to be true at a minimum for a high chance of succeeding:



                                  1) The printing press exists



                                  2) Most of the population dwells in cities or easy-to-govern population centers



                                  3) Industrial production is on track to become the majority of the labor force



                                  The following civic and social conditions need to be true:



                                  1) The population has a basic literacy



                                  2) The printing press is efficiently controlled by the ruling power



                                  3) Ownership over print media is strictly controlled



                                  4) Populace has sufficient access to food



                                  Enforcing education to a state standard is not absolutely necessary, without it the populace needs only limited education and constant access to food and comforts. If they are 'comfortable enough' then they can be occupied with non-survival related dilemmas.



                                  Notice that likelihood is the word in all of this, a ruling power can control a population with access to resources in order to fund a policing body large enough to control a population, this of course is much easier with a small population. For example to the latter, a rich and paranoid city-state with the population of renaissance venice and the wealth of Mansa-Musa of Mali.



                                  If you want to know the whole story about this kind of control read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, there is also a documentary.






                                  share|improve this answer
















                                  • 1




                                    Are you sure that sufficient food and literacy are necessary? If most of the population is illiterate, secret communication is just that much harder. The ability of a small number of elites to read mean they can control those who can't (For example, see Animal Farm, which was also written by Orwell). As for food, in modern dystopias and in books like 1984, much of the population is starving. Is sufficient food needed just to begin taking over ("If you're starving, join our country, we have food", and then you take over and slowly lower food rations), or do you always need sufficient food?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 19 at 18:23










                                  • Starvation is common throughout most rebellions in history, 'sufficient' food is relative. 'Let them eat cake!' The average caloric intake for people in much older versions of society would be around 1000 calories, whereas by today's standard a man of average height should have an intake of 2000 to maintain current weight. So long as food is always reliably available there should be a lower chance of rebellion. It is also true that having literacy comes with risk of subversion, I maintain that it is a unavoidable flaw for social control output scaling up.
                                    – J T
                                    Sep 20 at 6:49







                                  • 1




                                    Why do you think that population-wide literature is necessary for controlling a population in the first place?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 20 at 11:50






                                  • 1




                                    @DaBaum "Monitoring someone's every move... would be a herculean task." You seem to have grasped this better than all of the other answers. "Big Brother" isn't limited by technology or social status, but by the sheer magnitude of man-hours it takes to sift through all of the data generated by an entire population's daily lives! I mean, Winston in the book was caught because he was extremely careless, not because Big Brother kept particularly good tabs on him.
                                    – Michael W.
                                    Sep 20 at 15:57






                                  • 1




                                    Ok, so each person being able to read means they will see the laws, not hear them from word of mouth, which could mix them up. Is that what you're saying?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 21 at 10:35












                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote










                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote









                                  Surveillance is possible but not all that feasible with the advent of audio transmission. Controlling and monitoring someone's every move let alone a whole nation or even city would be a herculean task with just analog audio signals or even analog video transmission as it existed in decades past.
                                  I would posit that information-era technology and communications is the earliest a ruling power could surveil a large population like in 1984.



                                  The kind of control you reference via big brother is only really possible through mass communication, repeating messaging to a populace until the eventual adoption of those values requires media or communications that can be passed on reliably every day.



                                  Reliably meaning that there is as little loss in translation as possible, the message is exact and indelible. Things such as town criers or other social messaging would make it extremely unlikely for totalitarian social control to be successful.



                                  From this we can assert that everyone hearing/reading/seeing the same message leads to it being self repeating socially, there is no social representative per-se, no messenger just the message at the initial point of contact with society. The message then has a high likelihood of being self-replicating
                                  if it is propagandized effectively creating and/or resolving emotions of the populace.



                                  Therefore the only time it enters a likelihood of success is with the following conditions; following the technological advance of our own history this is the earliest point at which this type of social control can be enforced.



                                  The following technological states need to be true at a minimum for a high chance of succeeding:



                                  1) The printing press exists



                                  2) Most of the population dwells in cities or easy-to-govern population centers



                                  3) Industrial production is on track to become the majority of the labor force



                                  The following civic and social conditions need to be true:



                                  1) The population has a basic literacy



                                  2) The printing press is efficiently controlled by the ruling power



                                  3) Ownership over print media is strictly controlled



                                  4) Populace has sufficient access to food



                                  Enforcing education to a state standard is not absolutely necessary, without it the populace needs only limited education and constant access to food and comforts. If they are 'comfortable enough' then they can be occupied with non-survival related dilemmas.



                                  Notice that likelihood is the word in all of this, a ruling power can control a population with access to resources in order to fund a policing body large enough to control a population, this of course is much easier with a small population. For example to the latter, a rich and paranoid city-state with the population of renaissance venice and the wealth of Mansa-Musa of Mali.



                                  If you want to know the whole story about this kind of control read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, there is also a documentary.






                                  share|improve this answer












                                  Surveillance is possible but not all that feasible with the advent of audio transmission. Controlling and monitoring someone's every move let alone a whole nation or even city would be a herculean task with just analog audio signals or even analog video transmission as it existed in decades past.
                                  I would posit that information-era technology and communications is the earliest a ruling power could surveil a large population like in 1984.



                                  The kind of control you reference via big brother is only really possible through mass communication, repeating messaging to a populace until the eventual adoption of those values requires media or communications that can be passed on reliably every day.



                                  Reliably meaning that there is as little loss in translation as possible, the message is exact and indelible. Things such as town criers or other social messaging would make it extremely unlikely for totalitarian social control to be successful.



                                  From this we can assert that everyone hearing/reading/seeing the same message leads to it being self repeating socially, there is no social representative per-se, no messenger just the message at the initial point of contact with society. The message then has a high likelihood of being self-replicating
                                  if it is propagandized effectively creating and/or resolving emotions of the populace.



                                  Therefore the only time it enters a likelihood of success is with the following conditions; following the technological advance of our own history this is the earliest point at which this type of social control can be enforced.



                                  The following technological states need to be true at a minimum for a high chance of succeeding:



                                  1) The printing press exists



                                  2) Most of the population dwells in cities or easy-to-govern population centers



                                  3) Industrial production is on track to become the majority of the labor force



                                  The following civic and social conditions need to be true:



                                  1) The population has a basic literacy



                                  2) The printing press is efficiently controlled by the ruling power



                                  3) Ownership over print media is strictly controlled



                                  4) Populace has sufficient access to food



                                  Enforcing education to a state standard is not absolutely necessary, without it the populace needs only limited education and constant access to food and comforts. If they are 'comfortable enough' then they can be occupied with non-survival related dilemmas.



                                  Notice that likelihood is the word in all of this, a ruling power can control a population with access to resources in order to fund a policing body large enough to control a population, this of course is much easier with a small population. For example to the latter, a rich and paranoid city-state with the population of renaissance venice and the wealth of Mansa-Musa of Mali.



                                  If you want to know the whole story about this kind of control read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, there is also a documentary.







                                  share|improve this answer












                                  share|improve this answer



                                  share|improve this answer










                                  answered Sep 19 at 18:12









                                  J T

                                  314




                                  314







                                  • 1




                                    Are you sure that sufficient food and literacy are necessary? If most of the population is illiterate, secret communication is just that much harder. The ability of a small number of elites to read mean they can control those who can't (For example, see Animal Farm, which was also written by Orwell). As for food, in modern dystopias and in books like 1984, much of the population is starving. Is sufficient food needed just to begin taking over ("If you're starving, join our country, we have food", and then you take over and slowly lower food rations), or do you always need sufficient food?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 19 at 18:23










                                  • Starvation is common throughout most rebellions in history, 'sufficient' food is relative. 'Let them eat cake!' The average caloric intake for people in much older versions of society would be around 1000 calories, whereas by today's standard a man of average height should have an intake of 2000 to maintain current weight. So long as food is always reliably available there should be a lower chance of rebellion. It is also true that having literacy comes with risk of subversion, I maintain that it is a unavoidable flaw for social control output scaling up.
                                    – J T
                                    Sep 20 at 6:49







                                  • 1




                                    Why do you think that population-wide literature is necessary for controlling a population in the first place?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 20 at 11:50






                                  • 1




                                    @DaBaum "Monitoring someone's every move... would be a herculean task." You seem to have grasped this better than all of the other answers. "Big Brother" isn't limited by technology or social status, but by the sheer magnitude of man-hours it takes to sift through all of the data generated by an entire population's daily lives! I mean, Winston in the book was caught because he was extremely careless, not because Big Brother kept particularly good tabs on him.
                                    – Michael W.
                                    Sep 20 at 15:57






                                  • 1




                                    Ok, so each person being able to read means they will see the laws, not hear them from word of mouth, which could mix them up. Is that what you're saying?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 21 at 10:35












                                  • 1




                                    Are you sure that sufficient food and literacy are necessary? If most of the population is illiterate, secret communication is just that much harder. The ability of a small number of elites to read mean they can control those who can't (For example, see Animal Farm, which was also written by Orwell). As for food, in modern dystopias and in books like 1984, much of the population is starving. Is sufficient food needed just to begin taking over ("If you're starving, join our country, we have food", and then you take over and slowly lower food rations), or do you always need sufficient food?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 19 at 18:23










                                  • Starvation is common throughout most rebellions in history, 'sufficient' food is relative. 'Let them eat cake!' The average caloric intake for people in much older versions of society would be around 1000 calories, whereas by today's standard a man of average height should have an intake of 2000 to maintain current weight. So long as food is always reliably available there should be a lower chance of rebellion. It is also true that having literacy comes with risk of subversion, I maintain that it is a unavoidable flaw for social control output scaling up.
                                    – J T
                                    Sep 20 at 6:49







                                  • 1




                                    Why do you think that population-wide literature is necessary for controlling a population in the first place?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 20 at 11:50






                                  • 1




                                    @DaBaum "Monitoring someone's every move... would be a herculean task." You seem to have grasped this better than all of the other answers. "Big Brother" isn't limited by technology or social status, but by the sheer magnitude of man-hours it takes to sift through all of the data generated by an entire population's daily lives! I mean, Winston in the book was caught because he was extremely careless, not because Big Brother kept particularly good tabs on him.
                                    – Michael W.
                                    Sep 20 at 15:57






                                  • 1




                                    Ok, so each person being able to read means they will see the laws, not hear them from word of mouth, which could mix them up. Is that what you're saying?
                                    – John Locke
                                    Sep 21 at 10:35







                                  1




                                  1




                                  Are you sure that sufficient food and literacy are necessary? If most of the population is illiterate, secret communication is just that much harder. The ability of a small number of elites to read mean they can control those who can't (For example, see Animal Farm, which was also written by Orwell). As for food, in modern dystopias and in books like 1984, much of the population is starving. Is sufficient food needed just to begin taking over ("If you're starving, join our country, we have food", and then you take over and slowly lower food rations), or do you always need sufficient food?
                                  – John Locke
                                  Sep 19 at 18:23




                                  Are you sure that sufficient food and literacy are necessary? If most of the population is illiterate, secret communication is just that much harder. The ability of a small number of elites to read mean they can control those who can't (For example, see Animal Farm, which was also written by Orwell). As for food, in modern dystopias and in books like 1984, much of the population is starving. Is sufficient food needed just to begin taking over ("If you're starving, join our country, we have food", and then you take over and slowly lower food rations), or do you always need sufficient food?
                                  – John Locke
                                  Sep 19 at 18:23












                                  Starvation is common throughout most rebellions in history, 'sufficient' food is relative. 'Let them eat cake!' The average caloric intake for people in much older versions of society would be around 1000 calories, whereas by today's standard a man of average height should have an intake of 2000 to maintain current weight. So long as food is always reliably available there should be a lower chance of rebellion. It is also true that having literacy comes with risk of subversion, I maintain that it is a unavoidable flaw for social control output scaling up.
                                  – J T
                                  Sep 20 at 6:49





                                  Starvation is common throughout most rebellions in history, 'sufficient' food is relative. 'Let them eat cake!' The average caloric intake for people in much older versions of society would be around 1000 calories, whereas by today's standard a man of average height should have an intake of 2000 to maintain current weight. So long as food is always reliably available there should be a lower chance of rebellion. It is also true that having literacy comes with risk of subversion, I maintain that it is a unavoidable flaw for social control output scaling up.
                                  – J T
                                  Sep 20 at 6:49





                                  1




                                  1




                                  Why do you think that population-wide literature is necessary for controlling a population in the first place?
                                  – John Locke
                                  Sep 20 at 11:50




                                  Why do you think that population-wide literature is necessary for controlling a population in the first place?
                                  – John Locke
                                  Sep 20 at 11:50




                                  1




                                  1




                                  @DaBaum "Monitoring someone's every move... would be a herculean task." You seem to have grasped this better than all of the other answers. "Big Brother" isn't limited by technology or social status, but by the sheer magnitude of man-hours it takes to sift through all of the data generated by an entire population's daily lives! I mean, Winston in the book was caught because he was extremely careless, not because Big Brother kept particularly good tabs on him.
                                  – Michael W.
                                  Sep 20 at 15:57




                                  @DaBaum "Monitoring someone's every move... would be a herculean task." You seem to have grasped this better than all of the other answers. "Big Brother" isn't limited by technology or social status, but by the sheer magnitude of man-hours it takes to sift through all of the data generated by an entire population's daily lives! I mean, Winston in the book was caught because he was extremely careless, not because Big Brother kept particularly good tabs on him.
                                  – Michael W.
                                  Sep 20 at 15:57




                                  1




                                  1




                                  Ok, so each person being able to read means they will see the laws, not hear them from word of mouth, which could mix them up. Is that what you're saying?
                                  – John Locke
                                  Sep 21 at 10:35




                                  Ok, so each person being able to read means they will see the laws, not hear them from word of mouth, which could mix them up. Is that what you're saying?
                                  – John Locke
                                  Sep 21 at 10:35










                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote













                                  Others already pointed you to earlier examples of surveillance, but one I find particularly noteworthy is the Puritans in the 17th century colonies. They had a prohibition on anybody living alone, because living alone would allow somebody to remain unobserved.






                                  share|improve this answer




















                                  • Do you have any evidence of that?
                                    – kingledion
                                    Sep 20 at 13:15










                                  • @kingledion, "...a recognition of the importance of 'minding one's own business' and not being a busybody served as a check against rigid enforcement of Puritan laws that prohibited, among other things, having sex outside of marriage, swearing, living alone, or dressing ostentatiously." (source].
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:38











                                  • @kingledion, Ah... "In fact, Puritans were so concerned about monitoring behavior that they passed laws prohibiting people from living alone." (Source)
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:41














                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote













                                  Others already pointed you to earlier examples of surveillance, but one I find particularly noteworthy is the Puritans in the 17th century colonies. They had a prohibition on anybody living alone, because living alone would allow somebody to remain unobserved.






                                  share|improve this answer




















                                  • Do you have any evidence of that?
                                    – kingledion
                                    Sep 20 at 13:15










                                  • @kingledion, "...a recognition of the importance of 'minding one's own business' and not being a busybody served as a check against rigid enforcement of Puritan laws that prohibited, among other things, having sex outside of marriage, swearing, living alone, or dressing ostentatiously." (source].
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:38











                                  • @kingledion, Ah... "In fact, Puritans were so concerned about monitoring behavior that they passed laws prohibiting people from living alone." (Source)
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:41












                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote










                                  up vote
                                  3
                                  down vote









                                  Others already pointed you to earlier examples of surveillance, but one I find particularly noteworthy is the Puritans in the 17th century colonies. They had a prohibition on anybody living alone, because living alone would allow somebody to remain unobserved.






                                  share|improve this answer












                                  Others already pointed you to earlier examples of surveillance, but one I find particularly noteworthy is the Puritans in the 17th century colonies. They had a prohibition on anybody living alone, because living alone would allow somebody to remain unobserved.







                                  share|improve this answer












                                  share|improve this answer



                                  share|improve this answer










                                  answered Sep 19 at 22:09









                                  Kevin Keane

                                  67247




                                  67247











                                  • Do you have any evidence of that?
                                    – kingledion
                                    Sep 20 at 13:15










                                  • @kingledion, "...a recognition of the importance of 'minding one's own business' and not being a busybody served as a check against rigid enforcement of Puritan laws that prohibited, among other things, having sex outside of marriage, swearing, living alone, or dressing ostentatiously." (source].
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:38











                                  • @kingledion, Ah... "In fact, Puritans were so concerned about monitoring behavior that they passed laws prohibiting people from living alone." (Source)
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:41
















                                  • Do you have any evidence of that?
                                    – kingledion
                                    Sep 20 at 13:15










                                  • @kingledion, "...a recognition of the importance of 'minding one's own business' and not being a busybody served as a check against rigid enforcement of Puritan laws that prohibited, among other things, having sex outside of marriage, swearing, living alone, or dressing ostentatiously." (source].
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:38











                                  • @kingledion, Ah... "In fact, Puritans were so concerned about monitoring behavior that they passed laws prohibiting people from living alone." (Source)
                                    – JBH
                                    Sep 21 at 3:41















                                  Do you have any evidence of that?
                                  – kingledion
                                  Sep 20 at 13:15




                                  Do you have any evidence of that?
                                  – kingledion
                                  Sep 20 at 13:15












                                  @kingledion, "...a recognition of the importance of 'minding one's own business' and not being a busybody served as a check against rigid enforcement of Puritan laws that prohibited, among other things, having sex outside of marriage, swearing, living alone, or dressing ostentatiously." (source].
                                  – JBH
                                  Sep 21 at 3:38





                                  @kingledion, "...a recognition of the importance of 'minding one's own business' and not being a busybody served as a check against rigid enforcement of Puritan laws that prohibited, among other things, having sex outside of marriage, swearing, living alone, or dressing ostentatiously." (source].
                                  – JBH
                                  Sep 21 at 3:38













                                  @kingledion, Ah... "In fact, Puritans were so concerned about monitoring behavior that they passed laws prohibiting people from living alone." (Source)
                                  – JBH
                                  Sep 21 at 3:41




                                  @kingledion, Ah... "In fact, Puritans were so concerned about monitoring behavior that they passed laws prohibiting people from living alone." (Source)
                                  – JBH
                                  Sep 21 at 3:41










                                  up vote
                                  2
                                  down vote













                                  I read a paper sometime ago that compared modern surveillance with the Catholic Church of a few hundred years ago. If you think about it, convincing a large population to confess to their priest and using priests as intelligence agents is an interesting idea.



                                  But nowadays? We are way too smart to tell on ourselves. Right? I mean, if we were told to carry around a small gadget that tracked our every move, and enabled tracking our communications - we'd never do that, would we? And equipping a populace with monitoring gadgets would be so expensive - what government could afford such a thing??? OH I have an idea - let's get the sheeple to pay for the gadgets themselves!






                                  share|improve this answer


























                                    up vote
                                    2
                                    down vote













                                    I read a paper sometime ago that compared modern surveillance with the Catholic Church of a few hundred years ago. If you think about it, convincing a large population to confess to their priest and using priests as intelligence agents is an interesting idea.



                                    But nowadays? We are way too smart to tell on ourselves. Right? I mean, if we were told to carry around a small gadget that tracked our every move, and enabled tracking our communications - we'd never do that, would we? And equipping a populace with monitoring gadgets would be so expensive - what government could afford such a thing??? OH I have an idea - let's get the sheeple to pay for the gadgets themselves!






                                    share|improve this answer
























                                      up vote
                                      2
                                      down vote










                                      up vote
                                      2
                                      down vote









                                      I read a paper sometime ago that compared modern surveillance with the Catholic Church of a few hundred years ago. If you think about it, convincing a large population to confess to their priest and using priests as intelligence agents is an interesting idea.



                                      But nowadays? We are way too smart to tell on ourselves. Right? I mean, if we were told to carry around a small gadget that tracked our every move, and enabled tracking our communications - we'd never do that, would we? And equipping a populace with monitoring gadgets would be so expensive - what government could afford such a thing??? OH I have an idea - let's get the sheeple to pay for the gadgets themselves!






                                      share|improve this answer














                                      I read a paper sometime ago that compared modern surveillance with the Catholic Church of a few hundred years ago. If you think about it, convincing a large population to confess to their priest and using priests as intelligence agents is an interesting idea.



                                      But nowadays? We are way too smart to tell on ourselves. Right? I mean, if we were told to carry around a small gadget that tracked our every move, and enabled tracking our communications - we'd never do that, would we? And equipping a populace with monitoring gadgets would be so expensive - what government could afford such a thing??? OH I have an idea - let's get the sheeple to pay for the gadgets themselves!







                                      share|improve this answer














                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer








                                      edited Sep 20 at 19:21









                                      kingledion

                                      66.8k22222381




                                      66.8k22222381










                                      answered Sep 20 at 19:19









                                      Wallie

                                      211




                                      211



























                                           

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