Plural genitive in 1st and 2nd declension - how were mixed genders treated?

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Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.










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    Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.










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    K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      up vote
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      up vote
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      Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.










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      K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.







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          2 Answers
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          As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.



          However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).



          So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".






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            In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).



            I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):




            ... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)




            doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.






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              2 Answers
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              As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.



              However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).



              So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".






              share|improve this answer
























                up vote
                3
                down vote













                As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.



                However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).



                So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".






                share|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote









                  As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.



                  However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).



                  So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".






                  share|improve this answer












                  As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.



                  However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).



                  So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".







                  share|improve this answer












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                  answered 3 hours ago









                  Draconis

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                      up vote
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                      In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).



                      I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):




                      ... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)




                      doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.






                      share|improve this answer
























                        up vote
                        2
                        down vote













                        In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).



                        I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):




                        ... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)




                        doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.






                        share|improve this answer






















                          up vote
                          2
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          2
                          down vote









                          In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).



                          I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):




                          ... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)




                          doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.






                          share|improve this answer












                          In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).



                          I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):




                          ... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)




                          doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 2 hours ago









                          Alex B.

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