How are supersymmetry transformations even defined?

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I am just starting to read about supersymmetry for the first time, and there is something bothering me. Supersymmetry transformations transform between bosonic fields and fermionic fields, but I don't see how this can even be defined. Take the following simple example that appears in the beginning of the notes I'm reading. In four dimensions, say $S$ is a real scalar field, $P$ is a real pseudo scalar field, and $psi$ is a Majorana spinor. Take the Lagrangian to just be



$$mathcalL = - frac12 (partial S)^2 - frac12 (partial P)^2 - frac12 barpsi partial!!!/ psi.$$



Now, $S$ and $P$ are just real fields. (And they truly are classical fields, because Lagrangians are always functions of classical variables, even when we're interested in QFT.) However, $psi$ is made of anti commuting Grassmann variables. So we can see that the $psi$ field is not made of the same "type" of object as the $S$ and $P$ fields. In other words, $S$ is a function



$$ S: mathbbR^4 to mathbbR$$
while I believe $psi$ is a function
$$ psi: mathbbR^4 to textorder 1 elements of Gr(4, mathbbR)$$
where $Gr(4,mathbbR)$ denotes the real Grassmann algebra with 4 generators. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) By order 1 elements, I mean linear combinations of the four generators of $Gr(4, mathbbR)$. As a vector space, this is equal to $mathbbR^4$.



How can we then consider "supersymmetry" transformations of the following form?



beginalign*
delta_varepsilon S &= barvarepsilon psi \
delta_varepsilon P &= barvarepsilon gamma_5 psi \
delta_varepsilon psi &= partial!!!/ (S + P gamma_5) varepsilon
endalign*
($varepsilon$ is a constant Majorana spinor.) $barvarepsilon psi$ is now a Grassmann number of order 2, which is simply just not the same "type" of thing as $S$, which is just a real number! So how is this "transformation" even defined?



Perhaps I do not understand how a "classical" fermion field is really supposed to work, or how these Grassmann numbers are being used.










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    up vote
    4
    down vote

    favorite












    I am just starting to read about supersymmetry for the first time, and there is something bothering me. Supersymmetry transformations transform between bosonic fields and fermionic fields, but I don't see how this can even be defined. Take the following simple example that appears in the beginning of the notes I'm reading. In four dimensions, say $S$ is a real scalar field, $P$ is a real pseudo scalar field, and $psi$ is a Majorana spinor. Take the Lagrangian to just be



    $$mathcalL = - frac12 (partial S)^2 - frac12 (partial P)^2 - frac12 barpsi partial!!!/ psi.$$



    Now, $S$ and $P$ are just real fields. (And they truly are classical fields, because Lagrangians are always functions of classical variables, even when we're interested in QFT.) However, $psi$ is made of anti commuting Grassmann variables. So we can see that the $psi$ field is not made of the same "type" of object as the $S$ and $P$ fields. In other words, $S$ is a function



    $$ S: mathbbR^4 to mathbbR$$
    while I believe $psi$ is a function
    $$ psi: mathbbR^4 to textorder 1 elements of Gr(4, mathbbR)$$
    where $Gr(4,mathbbR)$ denotes the real Grassmann algebra with 4 generators. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) By order 1 elements, I mean linear combinations of the four generators of $Gr(4, mathbbR)$. As a vector space, this is equal to $mathbbR^4$.



    How can we then consider "supersymmetry" transformations of the following form?



    beginalign*
    delta_varepsilon S &= barvarepsilon psi \
    delta_varepsilon P &= barvarepsilon gamma_5 psi \
    delta_varepsilon psi &= partial!!!/ (S + P gamma_5) varepsilon
    endalign*
    ($varepsilon$ is a constant Majorana spinor.) $barvarepsilon psi$ is now a Grassmann number of order 2, which is simply just not the same "type" of thing as $S$, which is just a real number! So how is this "transformation" even defined?



    Perhaps I do not understand how a "classical" fermion field is really supposed to work, or how these Grassmann numbers are being used.










    share|cite|improve this question

























      up vote
      4
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      4
      down vote

      favorite











      I am just starting to read about supersymmetry for the first time, and there is something bothering me. Supersymmetry transformations transform between bosonic fields and fermionic fields, but I don't see how this can even be defined. Take the following simple example that appears in the beginning of the notes I'm reading. In four dimensions, say $S$ is a real scalar field, $P$ is a real pseudo scalar field, and $psi$ is a Majorana spinor. Take the Lagrangian to just be



      $$mathcalL = - frac12 (partial S)^2 - frac12 (partial P)^2 - frac12 barpsi partial!!!/ psi.$$



      Now, $S$ and $P$ are just real fields. (And they truly are classical fields, because Lagrangians are always functions of classical variables, even when we're interested in QFT.) However, $psi$ is made of anti commuting Grassmann variables. So we can see that the $psi$ field is not made of the same "type" of object as the $S$ and $P$ fields. In other words, $S$ is a function



      $$ S: mathbbR^4 to mathbbR$$
      while I believe $psi$ is a function
      $$ psi: mathbbR^4 to textorder 1 elements of Gr(4, mathbbR)$$
      where $Gr(4,mathbbR)$ denotes the real Grassmann algebra with 4 generators. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) By order 1 elements, I mean linear combinations of the four generators of $Gr(4, mathbbR)$. As a vector space, this is equal to $mathbbR^4$.



      How can we then consider "supersymmetry" transformations of the following form?



      beginalign*
      delta_varepsilon S &= barvarepsilon psi \
      delta_varepsilon P &= barvarepsilon gamma_5 psi \
      delta_varepsilon psi &= partial!!!/ (S + P gamma_5) varepsilon
      endalign*
      ($varepsilon$ is a constant Majorana spinor.) $barvarepsilon psi$ is now a Grassmann number of order 2, which is simply just not the same "type" of thing as $S$, which is just a real number! So how is this "transformation" even defined?



      Perhaps I do not understand how a "classical" fermion field is really supposed to work, or how these Grassmann numbers are being used.










      share|cite|improve this question















      I am just starting to read about supersymmetry for the first time, and there is something bothering me. Supersymmetry transformations transform between bosonic fields and fermionic fields, but I don't see how this can even be defined. Take the following simple example that appears in the beginning of the notes I'm reading. In four dimensions, say $S$ is a real scalar field, $P$ is a real pseudo scalar field, and $psi$ is a Majorana spinor. Take the Lagrangian to just be



      $$mathcalL = - frac12 (partial S)^2 - frac12 (partial P)^2 - frac12 barpsi partial!!!/ psi.$$



      Now, $S$ and $P$ are just real fields. (And they truly are classical fields, because Lagrangians are always functions of classical variables, even when we're interested in QFT.) However, $psi$ is made of anti commuting Grassmann variables. So we can see that the $psi$ field is not made of the same "type" of object as the $S$ and $P$ fields. In other words, $S$ is a function



      $$ S: mathbbR^4 to mathbbR$$
      while I believe $psi$ is a function
      $$ psi: mathbbR^4 to textorder 1 elements of Gr(4, mathbbR)$$
      where $Gr(4,mathbbR)$ denotes the real Grassmann algebra with 4 generators. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) By order 1 elements, I mean linear combinations of the four generators of $Gr(4, mathbbR)$. As a vector space, this is equal to $mathbbR^4$.



      How can we then consider "supersymmetry" transformations of the following form?



      beginalign*
      delta_varepsilon S &= barvarepsilon psi \
      delta_varepsilon P &= barvarepsilon gamma_5 psi \
      delta_varepsilon psi &= partial!!!/ (S + P gamma_5) varepsilon
      endalign*
      ($varepsilon$ is a constant Majorana spinor.) $barvarepsilon psi$ is now a Grassmann number of order 2, which is simply just not the same "type" of thing as $S$, which is just a real number! So how is this "transformation" even defined?



      Perhaps I do not understand how a "classical" fermion field is really supposed to work, or how these Grassmann numbers are being used.







      quantum-field-theory supersymmetry fermions grassmann-numbers superalgebra






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      edited Sep 11 at 3:32









      Qmechanic♦

      97.4k121641046




      97.4k121641046










      asked Sep 11 at 3:05









      user1379857

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          2 Answers
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          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          3
          down vote



          accepted










          This is actually a rather subtle question, which does not really get explained in too many text books. As Qmechanic says, Grassmann variables, i.e. elements of the infinite dimensional Grassmann algebra $Lambda_infty$, have in general body and soul. Now, of course, you may say: wait, isn't the action just
          $$ S=int!mathrmd^4x,mathcalL;,$$
          and how can $S$ have a soul? The answer is that in this context the action here just something that enters the path integral via
          $$ textcorrelator=int mathcalDpsi,mathcalDbarpsi,mathcalDphi,mathcalDP, dots exp(mathrmi,S);,$$
          where I renamed your field $S$ to $phi$ in order to distinguish it from the action $S$. The important point to notice is that the correlator on the left-hand side is just an ordinary complex number, and not an element of $Lambda_infty$, because in the path integral we got rid of all algebraic objects. This is because $intmathrmdtheta,theta=1$ for a-numbers. So the upshot is that in this context $mathcalL$ and all the fields are really elements of $Lambda_infty$, and hence $barvarepsilonpsi$ is something which one can shift a scalar field by.






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • I see. So the total path integral is both a regular path integral and a Berezin path integral. The action $S$ takes supernumbers as its input, and our transformation is taking place within the inputs of $S$, and so the total path integral is still defined.
            – user1379857
            Sep 11 at 4:22










          • @user1379857 Yes, that's roughly how it is. In this context, he action is just some object that allows us to compute correlators.
            – marmot
            Sep 11 at 4:24

















          up vote
          3
          down vote













          The Grassmann-even variables $S$ and $P$ are supernumbers, which can have both body and soul, not just body. See e.g. this related Phys.SE post.






          share|cite|improve this answer






















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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes








            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted










            This is actually a rather subtle question, which does not really get explained in too many text books. As Qmechanic says, Grassmann variables, i.e. elements of the infinite dimensional Grassmann algebra $Lambda_infty$, have in general body and soul. Now, of course, you may say: wait, isn't the action just
            $$ S=int!mathrmd^4x,mathcalL;,$$
            and how can $S$ have a soul? The answer is that in this context the action here just something that enters the path integral via
            $$ textcorrelator=int mathcalDpsi,mathcalDbarpsi,mathcalDphi,mathcalDP, dots exp(mathrmi,S);,$$
            where I renamed your field $S$ to $phi$ in order to distinguish it from the action $S$. The important point to notice is that the correlator on the left-hand side is just an ordinary complex number, and not an element of $Lambda_infty$, because in the path integral we got rid of all algebraic objects. This is because $intmathrmdtheta,theta=1$ for a-numbers. So the upshot is that in this context $mathcalL$ and all the fields are really elements of $Lambda_infty$, and hence $barvarepsilonpsi$ is something which one can shift a scalar field by.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • I see. So the total path integral is both a regular path integral and a Berezin path integral. The action $S$ takes supernumbers as its input, and our transformation is taking place within the inputs of $S$, and so the total path integral is still defined.
              – user1379857
              Sep 11 at 4:22










            • @user1379857 Yes, that's roughly how it is. In this context, he action is just some object that allows us to compute correlators.
              – marmot
              Sep 11 at 4:24














            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted










            This is actually a rather subtle question, which does not really get explained in too many text books. As Qmechanic says, Grassmann variables, i.e. elements of the infinite dimensional Grassmann algebra $Lambda_infty$, have in general body and soul. Now, of course, you may say: wait, isn't the action just
            $$ S=int!mathrmd^4x,mathcalL;,$$
            and how can $S$ have a soul? The answer is that in this context the action here just something that enters the path integral via
            $$ textcorrelator=int mathcalDpsi,mathcalDbarpsi,mathcalDphi,mathcalDP, dots exp(mathrmi,S);,$$
            where I renamed your field $S$ to $phi$ in order to distinguish it from the action $S$. The important point to notice is that the correlator on the left-hand side is just an ordinary complex number, and not an element of $Lambda_infty$, because in the path integral we got rid of all algebraic objects. This is because $intmathrmdtheta,theta=1$ for a-numbers. So the upshot is that in this context $mathcalL$ and all the fields are really elements of $Lambda_infty$, and hence $barvarepsilonpsi$ is something which one can shift a scalar field by.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • I see. So the total path integral is both a regular path integral and a Berezin path integral. The action $S$ takes supernumbers as its input, and our transformation is taking place within the inputs of $S$, and so the total path integral is still defined.
              – user1379857
              Sep 11 at 4:22










            • @user1379857 Yes, that's roughly how it is. In this context, he action is just some object that allows us to compute correlators.
              – marmot
              Sep 11 at 4:24












            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted







            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted






            This is actually a rather subtle question, which does not really get explained in too many text books. As Qmechanic says, Grassmann variables, i.e. elements of the infinite dimensional Grassmann algebra $Lambda_infty$, have in general body and soul. Now, of course, you may say: wait, isn't the action just
            $$ S=int!mathrmd^4x,mathcalL;,$$
            and how can $S$ have a soul? The answer is that in this context the action here just something that enters the path integral via
            $$ textcorrelator=int mathcalDpsi,mathcalDbarpsi,mathcalDphi,mathcalDP, dots exp(mathrmi,S);,$$
            where I renamed your field $S$ to $phi$ in order to distinguish it from the action $S$. The important point to notice is that the correlator on the left-hand side is just an ordinary complex number, and not an element of $Lambda_infty$, because in the path integral we got rid of all algebraic objects. This is because $intmathrmdtheta,theta=1$ for a-numbers. So the upshot is that in this context $mathcalL$ and all the fields are really elements of $Lambda_infty$, and hence $barvarepsilonpsi$ is something which one can shift a scalar field by.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            This is actually a rather subtle question, which does not really get explained in too many text books. As Qmechanic says, Grassmann variables, i.e. elements of the infinite dimensional Grassmann algebra $Lambda_infty$, have in general body and soul. Now, of course, you may say: wait, isn't the action just
            $$ S=int!mathrmd^4x,mathcalL;,$$
            and how can $S$ have a soul? The answer is that in this context the action here just something that enters the path integral via
            $$ textcorrelator=int mathcalDpsi,mathcalDbarpsi,mathcalDphi,mathcalDP, dots exp(mathrmi,S);,$$
            where I renamed your field $S$ to $phi$ in order to distinguish it from the action $S$. The important point to notice is that the correlator on the left-hand side is just an ordinary complex number, and not an element of $Lambda_infty$, because in the path integral we got rid of all algebraic objects. This is because $intmathrmdtheta,theta=1$ for a-numbers. So the upshot is that in this context $mathcalL$ and all the fields are really elements of $Lambda_infty$, and hence $barvarepsilonpsi$ is something which one can shift a scalar field by.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Sep 11 at 4:08









            marmot

            53116




            53116











            • I see. So the total path integral is both a regular path integral and a Berezin path integral. The action $S$ takes supernumbers as its input, and our transformation is taking place within the inputs of $S$, and so the total path integral is still defined.
              – user1379857
              Sep 11 at 4:22










            • @user1379857 Yes, that's roughly how it is. In this context, he action is just some object that allows us to compute correlators.
              – marmot
              Sep 11 at 4:24
















            • I see. So the total path integral is both a regular path integral and a Berezin path integral. The action $S$ takes supernumbers as its input, and our transformation is taking place within the inputs of $S$, and so the total path integral is still defined.
              – user1379857
              Sep 11 at 4:22










            • @user1379857 Yes, that's roughly how it is. In this context, he action is just some object that allows us to compute correlators.
              – marmot
              Sep 11 at 4:24















            I see. So the total path integral is both a regular path integral and a Berezin path integral. The action $S$ takes supernumbers as its input, and our transformation is taking place within the inputs of $S$, and so the total path integral is still defined.
            – user1379857
            Sep 11 at 4:22




            I see. So the total path integral is both a regular path integral and a Berezin path integral. The action $S$ takes supernumbers as its input, and our transformation is taking place within the inputs of $S$, and so the total path integral is still defined.
            – user1379857
            Sep 11 at 4:22












            @user1379857 Yes, that's roughly how it is. In this context, he action is just some object that allows us to compute correlators.
            – marmot
            Sep 11 at 4:24




            @user1379857 Yes, that's roughly how it is. In this context, he action is just some object that allows us to compute correlators.
            – marmot
            Sep 11 at 4:24










            up vote
            3
            down vote













            The Grassmann-even variables $S$ and $P$ are supernumbers, which can have both body and soul, not just body. See e.g. this related Phys.SE post.






            share|cite|improve this answer


























              up vote
              3
              down vote













              The Grassmann-even variables $S$ and $P$ are supernumbers, which can have both body and soul, not just body. See e.g. this related Phys.SE post.






              share|cite|improve this answer
























                up vote
                3
                down vote










                up vote
                3
                down vote









                The Grassmann-even variables $S$ and $P$ are supernumbers, which can have both body and soul, not just body. See e.g. this related Phys.SE post.






                share|cite|improve this answer














                The Grassmann-even variables $S$ and $P$ are supernumbers, which can have both body and soul, not just body. See e.g. this related Phys.SE post.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited Sep 11 at 3:44

























                answered Sep 11 at 3:31









                Qmechanic♦

                97.4k121641046




                97.4k121641046



























                     

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