What logical fallacy is “If you don't like it, move!”?
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When criticizing government, society or whatever, people often retort, "If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
What kind of fallacy would this qualify as?
At first glance, it doesn't appear to make an argument at all. However, there is an implied argument:
If one doesn't like (whatever), one should move (rather than trying to fix the problem).
Can anyone suggest what kind of fallacy this is?
EDIT
Yikes, it's hard to choose the correct answer. Bread's response is the most popular by far, yet there are several others who argue that this isn't a fallacy at all.
I concur with Robus' and Geoffrey Thomas' observation that this could be classified as an ad hominem attack.
I think what we have is a complex "thing" that can be used in a variety of situations. While debating the merits of capitalism vs socialism, a person might challenge "Why don't you move to Cuba?" following it up with comments on Cuba's poverty or authoritarian government. There is some logic to the response (though it can be rebutted).
On the other hand, a person could just say something similar as a knee-jerk insult. For example, Mr. A. is griping about the sad state of entertainment, when Mr. B. growls, "Why don't you move to Haiti?"
The connection between media and Haiti may be weak or non-existent. He just knows that Haiti is a place not many people would want to live...so why don't you just stop criticizing something I support and go live in a really crappy place?
In summary, I think "Why don't you just move to X" can qualify as a logical fallacy in certain situations but not in others. In addition, it can qualify as different kinds of fallacies.
It will take me more time to get my head wrapped around it, but that's my current thinking. I up voted all the responses but two, including the suggestion that these words usually target immigrants.
EDIT #2
This appears to be a real brain teaser. Maybe I should ask a second question about my response:
Because I'm not the one with the problem; why don't YOU move?
fallacies
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When criticizing government, society or whatever, people often retort, "If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
What kind of fallacy would this qualify as?
At first glance, it doesn't appear to make an argument at all. However, there is an implied argument:
If one doesn't like (whatever), one should move (rather than trying to fix the problem).
Can anyone suggest what kind of fallacy this is?
EDIT
Yikes, it's hard to choose the correct answer. Bread's response is the most popular by far, yet there are several others who argue that this isn't a fallacy at all.
I concur with Robus' and Geoffrey Thomas' observation that this could be classified as an ad hominem attack.
I think what we have is a complex "thing" that can be used in a variety of situations. While debating the merits of capitalism vs socialism, a person might challenge "Why don't you move to Cuba?" following it up with comments on Cuba's poverty or authoritarian government. There is some logic to the response (though it can be rebutted).
On the other hand, a person could just say something similar as a knee-jerk insult. For example, Mr. A. is griping about the sad state of entertainment, when Mr. B. growls, "Why don't you move to Haiti?"
The connection between media and Haiti may be weak or non-existent. He just knows that Haiti is a place not many people would want to live...so why don't you just stop criticizing something I support and go live in a really crappy place?
In summary, I think "Why don't you just move to X" can qualify as a logical fallacy in certain situations but not in others. In addition, it can qualify as different kinds of fallacies.
It will take me more time to get my head wrapped around it, but that's my current thinking. I up voted all the responses but two, including the suggestion that these words usually target immigrants.
EDIT #2
This appears to be a real brain teaser. Maybe I should ask a second question about my response:
Because I'm not the one with the problem; why don't YOU move?
fallacies
6
The problem with this is that (if we limit ourselves to our native country, if you have migrated as an adult it is a very different situation) you didn't pick the country you were born in. So if that country somehow violates your basic human rights (such as imprisoning gays for being homosexual) it is not you who are at fault but rather the laws and you are the victim of immoral laws. Forcing you to move when you just want to live your life not bothering anyone is like forcing the victim of bullying in school to move rather than the bully. Are you Swedish?
– d-b
Nov 22 at 10:47
5
Wikipedia: "A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning, or "wrong moves" in the construction of an argument". What you suggest doesn't include anything invalid in the reasoning itself, but rather its consequences.
– Yechiam Weiss
Nov 22 at 17:14
15
I have to say that I don't think the statement is a logical fallacy, so much as an expression of the speaker's opinion. People who say this don't really mean that they think there are literally only two options ('like it' or 'leave') but that they think changing the way things are is a bad idea and they would prefer it didn't happen.
– DJClayworth
Nov 22 at 20:02
3
I came to Philosophy SE hoping for philosophy. It seems that many answers are political in nature. In particular they address the plight of immigrants to the US. If we want politics then I would cite Lindsay Shepherd, the teaching assistant at Wilfred Laurier University who was told effectively, "If you don't agree to conform to our culture here, you must leave." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd
– chasly from UK
Nov 25 at 19:08
9
This is theErgo Decedo
fallacy. I cannot answer the question because it is protected. Not fair! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedoErgo decedo, Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy,[1] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself.
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:37
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up vote
79
down vote
favorite
When criticizing government, society or whatever, people often retort, "If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
What kind of fallacy would this qualify as?
At first glance, it doesn't appear to make an argument at all. However, there is an implied argument:
If one doesn't like (whatever), one should move (rather than trying to fix the problem).
Can anyone suggest what kind of fallacy this is?
EDIT
Yikes, it's hard to choose the correct answer. Bread's response is the most popular by far, yet there are several others who argue that this isn't a fallacy at all.
I concur with Robus' and Geoffrey Thomas' observation that this could be classified as an ad hominem attack.
I think what we have is a complex "thing" that can be used in a variety of situations. While debating the merits of capitalism vs socialism, a person might challenge "Why don't you move to Cuba?" following it up with comments on Cuba's poverty or authoritarian government. There is some logic to the response (though it can be rebutted).
On the other hand, a person could just say something similar as a knee-jerk insult. For example, Mr. A. is griping about the sad state of entertainment, when Mr. B. growls, "Why don't you move to Haiti?"
The connection between media and Haiti may be weak or non-existent. He just knows that Haiti is a place not many people would want to live...so why don't you just stop criticizing something I support and go live in a really crappy place?
In summary, I think "Why don't you just move to X" can qualify as a logical fallacy in certain situations but not in others. In addition, it can qualify as different kinds of fallacies.
It will take me more time to get my head wrapped around it, but that's my current thinking. I up voted all the responses but two, including the suggestion that these words usually target immigrants.
EDIT #2
This appears to be a real brain teaser. Maybe I should ask a second question about my response:
Because I'm not the one with the problem; why don't YOU move?
fallacies
When criticizing government, society or whatever, people often retort, "If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
What kind of fallacy would this qualify as?
At first glance, it doesn't appear to make an argument at all. However, there is an implied argument:
If one doesn't like (whatever), one should move (rather than trying to fix the problem).
Can anyone suggest what kind of fallacy this is?
EDIT
Yikes, it's hard to choose the correct answer. Bread's response is the most popular by far, yet there are several others who argue that this isn't a fallacy at all.
I concur with Robus' and Geoffrey Thomas' observation that this could be classified as an ad hominem attack.
I think what we have is a complex "thing" that can be used in a variety of situations. While debating the merits of capitalism vs socialism, a person might challenge "Why don't you move to Cuba?" following it up with comments on Cuba's poverty or authoritarian government. There is some logic to the response (though it can be rebutted).
On the other hand, a person could just say something similar as a knee-jerk insult. For example, Mr. A. is griping about the sad state of entertainment, when Mr. B. growls, "Why don't you move to Haiti?"
The connection between media and Haiti may be weak or non-existent. He just knows that Haiti is a place not many people would want to live...so why don't you just stop criticizing something I support and go live in a really crappy place?
In summary, I think "Why don't you just move to X" can qualify as a logical fallacy in certain situations but not in others. In addition, it can qualify as different kinds of fallacies.
It will take me more time to get my head wrapped around it, but that's my current thinking. I up voted all the responses but two, including the suggestion that these words usually target immigrants.
EDIT #2
This appears to be a real brain teaser. Maybe I should ask a second question about my response:
Because I'm not the one with the problem; why don't YOU move?
fallacies
fallacies
edited Nov 23 at 16:26
asked Nov 22 at 2:01
David Blomstrom
2,6861717
2,6861717
6
The problem with this is that (if we limit ourselves to our native country, if you have migrated as an adult it is a very different situation) you didn't pick the country you were born in. So if that country somehow violates your basic human rights (such as imprisoning gays for being homosexual) it is not you who are at fault but rather the laws and you are the victim of immoral laws. Forcing you to move when you just want to live your life not bothering anyone is like forcing the victim of bullying in school to move rather than the bully. Are you Swedish?
– d-b
Nov 22 at 10:47
5
Wikipedia: "A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning, or "wrong moves" in the construction of an argument". What you suggest doesn't include anything invalid in the reasoning itself, but rather its consequences.
– Yechiam Weiss
Nov 22 at 17:14
15
I have to say that I don't think the statement is a logical fallacy, so much as an expression of the speaker's opinion. People who say this don't really mean that they think there are literally only two options ('like it' or 'leave') but that they think changing the way things are is a bad idea and they would prefer it didn't happen.
– DJClayworth
Nov 22 at 20:02
3
I came to Philosophy SE hoping for philosophy. It seems that many answers are political in nature. In particular they address the plight of immigrants to the US. If we want politics then I would cite Lindsay Shepherd, the teaching assistant at Wilfred Laurier University who was told effectively, "If you don't agree to conform to our culture here, you must leave." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd
– chasly from UK
Nov 25 at 19:08
9
This is theErgo Decedo
fallacy. I cannot answer the question because it is protected. Not fair! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedoErgo decedo, Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy,[1] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself.
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:37
|
show 24 more comments
6
The problem with this is that (if we limit ourselves to our native country, if you have migrated as an adult it is a very different situation) you didn't pick the country you were born in. So if that country somehow violates your basic human rights (such as imprisoning gays for being homosexual) it is not you who are at fault but rather the laws and you are the victim of immoral laws. Forcing you to move when you just want to live your life not bothering anyone is like forcing the victim of bullying in school to move rather than the bully. Are you Swedish?
– d-b
Nov 22 at 10:47
5
Wikipedia: "A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning, or "wrong moves" in the construction of an argument". What you suggest doesn't include anything invalid in the reasoning itself, but rather its consequences.
– Yechiam Weiss
Nov 22 at 17:14
15
I have to say that I don't think the statement is a logical fallacy, so much as an expression of the speaker's opinion. People who say this don't really mean that they think there are literally only two options ('like it' or 'leave') but that they think changing the way things are is a bad idea and they would prefer it didn't happen.
– DJClayworth
Nov 22 at 20:02
3
I came to Philosophy SE hoping for philosophy. It seems that many answers are political in nature. In particular they address the plight of immigrants to the US. If we want politics then I would cite Lindsay Shepherd, the teaching assistant at Wilfred Laurier University who was told effectively, "If you don't agree to conform to our culture here, you must leave." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd
– chasly from UK
Nov 25 at 19:08
9
This is theErgo Decedo
fallacy. I cannot answer the question because it is protected. Not fair! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedoErgo decedo, Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy,[1] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself.
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:37
6
6
The problem with this is that (if we limit ourselves to our native country, if you have migrated as an adult it is a very different situation) you didn't pick the country you were born in. So if that country somehow violates your basic human rights (such as imprisoning gays for being homosexual) it is not you who are at fault but rather the laws and you are the victim of immoral laws. Forcing you to move when you just want to live your life not bothering anyone is like forcing the victim of bullying in school to move rather than the bully. Are you Swedish?
– d-b
Nov 22 at 10:47
The problem with this is that (if we limit ourselves to our native country, if you have migrated as an adult it is a very different situation) you didn't pick the country you were born in. So if that country somehow violates your basic human rights (such as imprisoning gays for being homosexual) it is not you who are at fault but rather the laws and you are the victim of immoral laws. Forcing you to move when you just want to live your life not bothering anyone is like forcing the victim of bullying in school to move rather than the bully. Are you Swedish?
– d-b
Nov 22 at 10:47
5
5
Wikipedia: "A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning, or "wrong moves" in the construction of an argument". What you suggest doesn't include anything invalid in the reasoning itself, but rather its consequences.
– Yechiam Weiss
Nov 22 at 17:14
Wikipedia: "A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning, or "wrong moves" in the construction of an argument". What you suggest doesn't include anything invalid in the reasoning itself, but rather its consequences.
– Yechiam Weiss
Nov 22 at 17:14
15
15
I have to say that I don't think the statement is a logical fallacy, so much as an expression of the speaker's opinion. People who say this don't really mean that they think there are literally only two options ('like it' or 'leave') but that they think changing the way things are is a bad idea and they would prefer it didn't happen.
– DJClayworth
Nov 22 at 20:02
I have to say that I don't think the statement is a logical fallacy, so much as an expression of the speaker's opinion. People who say this don't really mean that they think there are literally only two options ('like it' or 'leave') but that they think changing the way things are is a bad idea and they would prefer it didn't happen.
– DJClayworth
Nov 22 at 20:02
3
3
I came to Philosophy SE hoping for philosophy. It seems that many answers are political in nature. In particular they address the plight of immigrants to the US. If we want politics then I would cite Lindsay Shepherd, the teaching assistant at Wilfred Laurier University who was told effectively, "If you don't agree to conform to our culture here, you must leave." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd
– chasly from UK
Nov 25 at 19:08
I came to Philosophy SE hoping for philosophy. It seems that many answers are political in nature. In particular they address the plight of immigrants to the US. If we want politics then I would cite Lindsay Shepherd, the teaching assistant at Wilfred Laurier University who was told effectively, "If you don't agree to conform to our culture here, you must leave." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd
– chasly from UK
Nov 25 at 19:08
9
9
This is the
Ergo Decedo
fallacy. I cannot answer the question because it is protected. Not fair! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo Ergo decedo, Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy,[1] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself.
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:37
This is the
Ergo Decedo
fallacy. I cannot answer the question because it is protected. Not fair! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo Ergo decedo, Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy,[1] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself.
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:37
|
show 24 more comments
11 Answers
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It may very well be a poor argument, but it's not a logical fallacy
People are too quick to jump on the "fallacy" bandwagon. There is no logical fallacy occurring here. It may very well be an argument that is not particularly convincing (In fact, I wouldn't use the argument), but there is nothing logically fallacious about it.
If a person asks
"If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
Bread states that "there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge," however this seems somewhat of a stretch. This is clearly reading more into what was said, than what was actually being said (In fact, this appears to be a straw man argument, which is ironically a fallacy itself). From this phrasing there is nothing that says that moving is the only way to achieve change. It just raises moving as an option. Clearly, this is an option that many people take, because people migrate all the time to countries they prefer to live in. In some cases it may even be the preferred way to achieve the change that you wish in your life.
Let's take a similar example. Consider the following statement:
"If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?"
Would anyone seriously think that this person is suggesting that working more hours per week is the only possible way to earn more money? I think that most people can see that they are simply raising one possible avenue of earning more money.
Instead, if someone said
"If you don't like America, your only option is to move somewhere else."
Then, sure, their statement would be logically fallacious.
On the other hand, Mark Andrews analyzes the statement as
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
But again, there is nothing fallacious in thinking "I like the country as it is; I would prefer if you didn't change it; therefore I would prefer that you leave rather than changing the country." Again, I'm not telling you to be convinced by the argument. But there is really nothing logically fallacious going on. To the question "Why don't you move somewhere else?" You are completely free to respond "Because I would rather change [what I perceive to be] the flaws of this country rather than moving."
5
The problem with this answer is that the ‘why don’t you move’ is almost never a sincere question (citation needed, yadayada), but a suggestion to just leave if you don’t like it.
– Sebastiaan van den Broek
2 days ago
3
@SebastiaanvandenBroek I have addressed comments such as that, you can see in the chat. Basically, the answer to such comments is: it doesn't matter with regard to it being logically fallacious or not. The person may not be sincere and you may be totally correct to criticize them for that, but that does not make the statement logically fallacious. Remember, just because I am saying that no logical fallacy is occurring, that does not mean I approve.
– Eff
2 days ago
1
However, aren't there at least two implications involved here: 1. one is that the person invoking this "argument" is implicitly stating that no other options are acceptable (without giving a reason), and 2. that the suggestion of moving is for the person hirself to "improve" hir own life and thus an implicit dismissal of the possibility that hir concern might also include others (who will not be "cured" by hir own act of moving were and could sie do it), that is, a presumption of egocentrism?
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
1
It may not be a fallacy, but the implicit assumption that moving away is what the disgruntled person desires is faulty. The person may enjoy living in the US, and therefore wants to make it a better place. Or the person may hate to live in the US, but would suffer even more if they were to move away.
– henning
2 days ago
1
@aroth You may disagree, but the fundamental point of my answer is that: No, it is not me who has a unconvential interpretation, but the fallacious interpretation is the unconvential one. I give some support for this by bringing in the example "If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?" I suggest--and you may disagree--that very few people would actually interpret this as working more hours per week is the only option. It seems to me that people are invoking a special interpretation in this specific case which they wouldn't in other equivalent cases.
– Eff
yesterday
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104
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It is the False Dilemma or Bifurcation Fallacy.
If you don't like it, then move.
Let's say you have caused some problems by questioning the decisions, speech, and actions of someone who is actively seeking social, economic, and/or political power. And you're confident that you have every right -- or even duty -- to do so. Those in power who are profiting from the situation aren't willing to change anything, hence they feel threatened by any kind of criticism. So they choose to solve the problem by employing a logically twisted rhetorical tactic against you in order to get rid of you fast. They assume that you aren't intelligent or educated enough to catch the fallacy in their argument. It goes like this:
Either you agree with the way we're handling things, or you don't.
If you like it, you're no threat to us (you can stay).
But your dissent creates a dilemma for us (so you can't stay). "Move."
The point is, they offer no other options. Just two: agree and stay, or disagree and leave. They're not willing to discuss it with you, because they know they'll lose that argument, so they're going to insist that you go away. But since they don't want to argue with you, they want you to think it's your choice. Thus they create a false dilemma.
"It's too bad you don't like it, because that means you should leave."
Well, not really. It doesn't have to mean that you should leave, because there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge. You might prefer to remain in the land of your forefathers, the land that you love, and work diligently to improve the socio-political climate where you are, along with any other important problems you and your loved ones might be facing there.
Logical Fallacies explains it well:
The bifurcation fallacy is committed when a false dilemma is presented, i.e. when someone is asked to choose between two options when there is at least one other option available. Of course, arguments that restrict the options to more than two but less than there really are, are similarly fallacious.
Example:
- (1) Either a Creator brought the universe into existence, or the universe came into existence out of nothing.
- (2) The universe didn’t come into existence out of nothing (because nothing comes from nothing). Therefore:
- (3) A Creator brought the universe into existence.
The first premise of this argument presents a false dilemma; it might be thought that the universe neither was brought into existence by a Creator nor came into existence out of nothing, because it existed from eternity.
Texas State University, Department of Philosophy, under 'False Dilemma' (an informal fallacy), lists as the first example:
America: Love it or leave it.
13
To add to this, the other choice is to change the society. There's a reason America has Amendments - people have changed their mind over time on how things should be run.
– Graham
Nov 22 at 8:32
9
You have radically changed OP's example into something that is a fallacy, while the original question never was.
– pipe
Nov 22 at 9:19
2
@marshal craft I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to Philosophy, thanks. I liked the example from Logical Fallacies because I believe that logically the eternal universe itself is the "single benevolent" God, although I realize there are many who have problems accepting that idea. However, I didn't pursue that line of thought in my answer, since as an example only, it was not completely on topic. By the way, I found my answer by googling, "fallacies of presumption".
– Bread
Nov 22 at 14:44
3
@DJClayworth Point well taken. But the mere suggestion that a person should "move" out of their own country and give up their citizenship, simply because they disagree with someone engaging in a power struggle over control of said country, is fallacious and frankly absurd. That it may be a rhetorical tactic steeped in politics is completely irrelevant to the truth and reality.
– Bread
Nov 22 at 20:12
7
Just adding another name for this fallacy to aid others who may search for it: Black & White thinking, of the "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort.
– Randall Stewart
Nov 23 at 4:19
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There is no argument, therefore there can be no fallacy
There is no fallacy here, no logical error in argument as e.g. in affirming the consequent. This is so because there is no argument here at all - only an expression of viewpoint. Fallacy presupposes argument. No argument, no fallacy : the concepts are tied.
1
It's not that I disagree with what you've said. In fact, I agree. But does it really answer the question? Is the statement a fallacy? If so, which? I totally agree that there are many costs associated with leaving a country, but I don't see how that makes the statement a fallacy. It just lends itself to an easy answer. Question: "If you don't like the country, why don't you move?" Answer: "Because the costs associated with moving are too high [because of X or Y], and I would prefer to change the country that I live in for the better." No fallacy occurred, just responded to the question.
– Eff
Nov 22 at 9:44
1
>"status quo is fine, great or at least all right : so leave us alone and go" - Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually trying to preserve status quo. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:47
1
@Philbo. I accept your point. These other examples could have been used. I took the question to be directly political and I've a sense from the questioner's edit that politics was on his mind. But your comment is illuminating. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
Nov 23 at 12:49
2
Giving a reluctant upvote here because the first 3 paragraphs stating that there is no argument and therefore no fallacy are a complete, correct and succinct answer to the question. The rest of the answer is not that necessary or helpful.
– Mark Meuer
yesterday
1
@GeoffreyThomas From perspective here the complete answer is the first paragraph, with the remainder reading as an apology for the direct answer. The second paragraph could be included in the answer, though begins the apology for the first paragraph which is continued for the rest of the answer; thereby decreasing or negating the value of the first paragraph, leaving room for the reader to become distracted by the apologies (for either viewpoint) in the remainder of the answer. Note also, and importantly, the text of the question does not state "One person has expressed dislike of America"
– guest271314
yesterday
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I suppose that there are a whole pile of fallacies behind such arguments. The one that first comes to mind is that the argument assumes what it sets out to prove.
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
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It is not a fallacy at all
First of all, this kind of criticism is usually aimed at people who are first or second generation immigrants. They came in US searching for better life conditions, which implies that their own old country had worse life conditions, and they were unable to improve them. If they could not improve a country with a lower living standard (lower goal post), there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve a country with a higher living standard (higher goal post). In fact, possible outcome could be worse living standard for US citizens.
Second, even when this critique is not aimed to immigrants, there is another problem. Person X could argue that he wants US to resemble some other country, let's say Sweden. Currently, large parts of US population abhor idea of US looking like Sweden. Therefore, person X has a long struggle ahead of him to convince or force others to accept his Swedish ideas. It would be more economical for him just to move to Sweden, instead of wasting energy and life on something that others do not want.
EDIT: Based on comments bellow, I need to clarify that phrase "if you don't like it, move" should not be considered as an argument in a debate, or as a reason for rejection of certain proposal (idea, request for change). Those arguments and those reasons (rational, irrational , whatever ...) happened before. Person being persuaded is not going to change his mind on certain question, and is simply communicating his decision to person trying to persuade him. Phrase "if you don't like it, move" is just a figure of speech. We could debate do real reason for rejection contain some logical fallacy, but that should be done case by case, not generally.
6
I've heard it said to way more people than first or second generation immigrants.
– Joe
Nov 22 at 16:40
3
I was just about to post what Joe said. My perception is that this challenge is leveled at just about anyone who criticizes the U.S government, U.S. policy, etc.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:12
1
@DavidBlomstrom No. For example, many people criticized Obama and many people now criticize Trump, yet they do not get such reply. Non-immigrants get it when they constantly try to push something that is considered un-American by majority of population and rejected as such. Let's say very strict gun control like in Britain, for example.
– rs.29
Nov 23 at 7:32
1
>"If they could not improve country with lower living standard (lower goal post) there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve country with higher living standard (higher goal post)." - There is a pretty reasonable chance such conclusions are wrong. Improving countries with high or low living standards require different skill sets and different amounts of effort. The correctness rate of you generalization seems poor here.
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:37
3
Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually resisting some change. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:41
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
This is an Informal Fallacy.
In contrast to a formal fallacy, an informal fallacy originates in a reasoning error other than a flaw in the logical form of the argument.
This is a recommended course of action, albeit it a recommendation born of frustration with the complaint.
To me, the problem is not with recommending that I move. And directed at some people, they could indeed move. the problem is that moving is not a valid solution to the problem that I perceive. "Moving" suggests that I am only capable of selfish interest, and do not care for anybody else in this country, that I do not care about social justice, or the negative effects of corruption, or whatever else my complaint might entail.
Say, for example, that my problem is rampant racism, or sexual harassment of women, or lack of employment rights for gays, or a denial of abortion rights. I don't have to be in any persecuted minority to be upset about any of those. Thus, the suggestion:
If you don't like it, move!
Doesn't address the problem I perceive, if I were living on the other side of the world, or on Mars, I could still be upset about what I perceive as the same injustices in my original home country.
This could also be true when I am in the harmed class to which my complaint applies. If I complain that my Home Owners Association Governors are throwing dinner parties for themselves with my fees, it does not solve the problem for me to move to another neighborhood; or would only address my selfish interest: Implicitly I am complaining about corruption and self-dealing, and the problem is bigger than my own fee, it is a moral position that what is happening is wrong for everybody. Moving out of the neighborhood would not stop the corruption and self-dealing.
A suggested solution that doesn't solve the problem at hand is an "informal fallacy," it is an error in reasoning that has failed to fully consider the nature of the complaint.
4
This answer really nails it. The core issue is that moving does not solve the problem.
– barbecue
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
7
down vote
A good way of responding to a question, even one asked in bad faith, is to answer it in good faith.
If someone asks you, "Why don't you just move?" Consider the question, then answer them. Why don't you move? This shows you take them seriously and helps them understand you. It can also help you understand yourself better. It can also help deescalate an argument.
If the question is instead phrased like a command "If you don't like it, then move." You can still treat it as a question and explain your reasons for not moving, or put in conditions. "I would love to move, but the financial costs and the risks involved are to high. Or: my family, friends and job is here, I do not want to abandon them."
Just make sure your explanations are sincere and not just attempts to deflect the question. Example of an insincere answer would be claiming it is to expensive and asking them to finance the move, then if they would say yes you would change your mind.
While identifying fallacies can be fun, in this case I think it would be pointless. "Why don't you just move?" Isn't a logical argument, it is an emotional one. They are not really trying to put forth a logical argument, they are expressing frustration with the discussion. My answer would be to address that frustration instead of trying to catch them in a logical fallacy.
New contributor
1
My favorite way to respond is "Why should I move? You're the one who sucks!" or "I'll move to Somalia if you move to North Korea."
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:58
1
A good answer (which I upvoted); just a pity that it doesn't address the question :-)
– Mawg
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
Simply on the basis of seeing this bumper sticker quite often throughout my life here in America I am also going to include the Bandwagon fallacy, ad populum. Just because it seems to be a popular and damaging argument used through advertisement.
I also agree with the bifurcation fallacy based on it assuming there is only ONE option in this situation of not liking where you are.
And I am also going to include, ad hominem fallacy, because I feel the insinuation may be directed toward immigrants or any minority in disagreement with current laws or traditions or sacrosanct arguments and can include such aspects as: culture, education level, religion, ethnic majority, eccentric behaviors, gender preference etc.
BINGO! I was just about to add a comment that, to my mind, this sounds kind of like an ad hominem attack.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:13
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
This statement is not logical in form. It is an imperative i.e. Do something! although in this case it is qualified.
An apparently similar statement in logic is: If X (is true) then Y (is true).
However "If you don't like it, move!" is different. The "!" gives this away. It is of the form used in (imperative) programming languages and algorithms: If X (is true) then do Y. Since it is not logical it can't be fallacious.
The negative response to a direct imperative is simply not to accede, for example, civil disobedience. In the case where the "command" is qualified you can justify refusing by saying that the pre-condition is not met, e.g. "But I do like it".
Other responses are to challenge specifics and context of the particular "command" and the particular pre-condition. E.g. that the utterer does not have the right to tell the addressee to do whatever is suggested, or that the pre-condition has no relation to the suggested action etc etc.
New contributor
If you have references with specific quotes that would strengthen the answer and give the reader places to go for more information. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
Nov 24 at 11:51
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up vote
0
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I would claim that it's not so much a logical fallacy. It is more of presentation of one option which one of the parties would prefer. Then you could maybe wiggle it a bit and make it look like a binary choice fallacy. "You can stay or you can leave, your choice!". Only two options are given, trying to implicate that whatever you choose, how stuff works will always remain the same. That you have no chance of changing it.
But in practice there are of course many other combinations.
- You can stay and try to strike some secret deal or
- You can stay and try and change the rules or
- You can stay and break the rules
But honestly for one person to try to change how stuff works, it just ain't worth it. It's way easier to try to move ourselves to find where we fit in than to change the whole world around us. And if enough people do that, then it could actually become an issue for whoever likes the current way of things.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say it depends on the context whether and where I'd see the fallacy.
The question puts it into a political context, i.e. in a context where - as long as both sides stay within what is legal/according to constitution - differing/opposite positions are allowed, and therfore not fallacious.
The rebuttal is rude - but whether it is unneccesary rude or the rudeness was earned by a similarly rudely expressed criticism we cannot judge from the question's scenario.
@Eff brings up the point that it can actually be a genuine question (still in political context) - If you don't like it, why don't you move?
I like this way of looking at the phrase as it opens the possibility to rescue the debate and get it back into a civil political debate: if I do consider moving I can explain that - and if not, it allows me to make clear that I don't think the (US) are bad overall: because x, y, z are too good to make moving away a serious consideration - IMHO just this particular point would be even better if done that new way. If I actually want to improve things (as opposed to: stir up things or "win" a debate), it's probably a far more convincing position to clearly acknowledge the points where I agree with my opponent and express my sincere appreciation for the country/society/community. And, of course, if the criticism did not express that there is in fact non-trivial agreement, the criticism can sound far more total than it is meant.While not being about the US, I know/knew people who being citizens of the same country which they critized a) some left (which was a crime), b) some stayed trying to change things - and in hindsight decided that was good even though they didn't move much, but a bit naive. Naive also because friends of them c) also decided to stay to try changing things - and were oppressed by their government to the point that they were thrown out of their country. I.e. if the critisism is a serious overall criticism with not just some important single point but comprises major parts of political and everyday life, then "why don't you move/leave?" is the question to ask. Seriously. And maybe moving is the thing to do.
Different scenario, not political - criticism of something we/this society cannot change. If someone tells me: "Your winters are just shit: no sun, wet fog and sooo cold." I may answer "if you don't like it, move!" and honestly admit that also "natives" of my region consider moving to nicer climates: so it can be a sincere question or advise and as such it is again not a logical (or even informal) fallacy.
Finally, if you don't like pi being 3, why don't you move to place where they use π = 4? Here we finally have constructed a fallacy: treating a mathematical fact as politically negotiable (category error).
As needed, replace π = 3 or 4 by any scientific theory/finding that is either true or false and that is subject to politics.
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It may very well be a poor argument, but it's not a logical fallacy
People are too quick to jump on the "fallacy" bandwagon. There is no logical fallacy occurring here. It may very well be an argument that is not particularly convincing (In fact, I wouldn't use the argument), but there is nothing logically fallacious about it.
If a person asks
"If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
Bread states that "there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge," however this seems somewhat of a stretch. This is clearly reading more into what was said, than what was actually being said (In fact, this appears to be a straw man argument, which is ironically a fallacy itself). From this phrasing there is nothing that says that moving is the only way to achieve change. It just raises moving as an option. Clearly, this is an option that many people take, because people migrate all the time to countries they prefer to live in. In some cases it may even be the preferred way to achieve the change that you wish in your life.
Let's take a similar example. Consider the following statement:
"If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?"
Would anyone seriously think that this person is suggesting that working more hours per week is the only possible way to earn more money? I think that most people can see that they are simply raising one possible avenue of earning more money.
Instead, if someone said
"If you don't like America, your only option is to move somewhere else."
Then, sure, their statement would be logically fallacious.
On the other hand, Mark Andrews analyzes the statement as
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
But again, there is nothing fallacious in thinking "I like the country as it is; I would prefer if you didn't change it; therefore I would prefer that you leave rather than changing the country." Again, I'm not telling you to be convinced by the argument. But there is really nothing logically fallacious going on. To the question "Why don't you move somewhere else?" You are completely free to respond "Because I would rather change [what I perceive to be] the flaws of this country rather than moving."
5
The problem with this answer is that the ‘why don’t you move’ is almost never a sincere question (citation needed, yadayada), but a suggestion to just leave if you don’t like it.
– Sebastiaan van den Broek
2 days ago
3
@SebastiaanvandenBroek I have addressed comments such as that, you can see in the chat. Basically, the answer to such comments is: it doesn't matter with regard to it being logically fallacious or not. The person may not be sincere and you may be totally correct to criticize them for that, but that does not make the statement logically fallacious. Remember, just because I am saying that no logical fallacy is occurring, that does not mean I approve.
– Eff
2 days ago
1
However, aren't there at least two implications involved here: 1. one is that the person invoking this "argument" is implicitly stating that no other options are acceptable (without giving a reason), and 2. that the suggestion of moving is for the person hirself to "improve" hir own life and thus an implicit dismissal of the possibility that hir concern might also include others (who will not be "cured" by hir own act of moving were and could sie do it), that is, a presumption of egocentrism?
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
1
It may not be a fallacy, but the implicit assumption that moving away is what the disgruntled person desires is faulty. The person may enjoy living in the US, and therefore wants to make it a better place. Or the person may hate to live in the US, but would suffer even more if they were to move away.
– henning
2 days ago
1
@aroth You may disagree, but the fundamental point of my answer is that: No, it is not me who has a unconvential interpretation, but the fallacious interpretation is the unconvential one. I give some support for this by bringing in the example "If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?" I suggest--and you may disagree--that very few people would actually interpret this as working more hours per week is the only option. It seems to me that people are invoking a special interpretation in this specific case which they wouldn't in other equivalent cases.
– Eff
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
125
down vote
It may very well be a poor argument, but it's not a logical fallacy
People are too quick to jump on the "fallacy" bandwagon. There is no logical fallacy occurring here. It may very well be an argument that is not particularly convincing (In fact, I wouldn't use the argument), but there is nothing logically fallacious about it.
If a person asks
"If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
Bread states that "there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge," however this seems somewhat of a stretch. This is clearly reading more into what was said, than what was actually being said (In fact, this appears to be a straw man argument, which is ironically a fallacy itself). From this phrasing there is nothing that says that moving is the only way to achieve change. It just raises moving as an option. Clearly, this is an option that many people take, because people migrate all the time to countries they prefer to live in. In some cases it may even be the preferred way to achieve the change that you wish in your life.
Let's take a similar example. Consider the following statement:
"If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?"
Would anyone seriously think that this person is suggesting that working more hours per week is the only possible way to earn more money? I think that most people can see that they are simply raising one possible avenue of earning more money.
Instead, if someone said
"If you don't like America, your only option is to move somewhere else."
Then, sure, their statement would be logically fallacious.
On the other hand, Mark Andrews analyzes the statement as
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
But again, there is nothing fallacious in thinking "I like the country as it is; I would prefer if you didn't change it; therefore I would prefer that you leave rather than changing the country." Again, I'm not telling you to be convinced by the argument. But there is really nothing logically fallacious going on. To the question "Why don't you move somewhere else?" You are completely free to respond "Because I would rather change [what I perceive to be] the flaws of this country rather than moving."
5
The problem with this answer is that the ‘why don’t you move’ is almost never a sincere question (citation needed, yadayada), but a suggestion to just leave if you don’t like it.
– Sebastiaan van den Broek
2 days ago
3
@SebastiaanvandenBroek I have addressed comments such as that, you can see in the chat. Basically, the answer to such comments is: it doesn't matter with regard to it being logically fallacious or not. The person may not be sincere and you may be totally correct to criticize them for that, but that does not make the statement logically fallacious. Remember, just because I am saying that no logical fallacy is occurring, that does not mean I approve.
– Eff
2 days ago
1
However, aren't there at least two implications involved here: 1. one is that the person invoking this "argument" is implicitly stating that no other options are acceptable (without giving a reason), and 2. that the suggestion of moving is for the person hirself to "improve" hir own life and thus an implicit dismissal of the possibility that hir concern might also include others (who will not be "cured" by hir own act of moving were and could sie do it), that is, a presumption of egocentrism?
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
1
It may not be a fallacy, but the implicit assumption that moving away is what the disgruntled person desires is faulty. The person may enjoy living in the US, and therefore wants to make it a better place. Or the person may hate to live in the US, but would suffer even more if they were to move away.
– henning
2 days ago
1
@aroth You may disagree, but the fundamental point of my answer is that: No, it is not me who has a unconvential interpretation, but the fallacious interpretation is the unconvential one. I give some support for this by bringing in the example "If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?" I suggest--and you may disagree--that very few people would actually interpret this as working more hours per week is the only option. It seems to me that people are invoking a special interpretation in this specific case which they wouldn't in other equivalent cases.
– Eff
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
125
down vote
up vote
125
down vote
It may very well be a poor argument, but it's not a logical fallacy
People are too quick to jump on the "fallacy" bandwagon. There is no logical fallacy occurring here. It may very well be an argument that is not particularly convincing (In fact, I wouldn't use the argument), but there is nothing logically fallacious about it.
If a person asks
"If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
Bread states that "there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge," however this seems somewhat of a stretch. This is clearly reading more into what was said, than what was actually being said (In fact, this appears to be a straw man argument, which is ironically a fallacy itself). From this phrasing there is nothing that says that moving is the only way to achieve change. It just raises moving as an option. Clearly, this is an option that many people take, because people migrate all the time to countries they prefer to live in. In some cases it may even be the preferred way to achieve the change that you wish in your life.
Let's take a similar example. Consider the following statement:
"If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?"
Would anyone seriously think that this person is suggesting that working more hours per week is the only possible way to earn more money? I think that most people can see that they are simply raising one possible avenue of earning more money.
Instead, if someone said
"If you don't like America, your only option is to move somewhere else."
Then, sure, their statement would be logically fallacious.
On the other hand, Mark Andrews analyzes the statement as
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
But again, there is nothing fallacious in thinking "I like the country as it is; I would prefer if you didn't change it; therefore I would prefer that you leave rather than changing the country." Again, I'm not telling you to be convinced by the argument. But there is really nothing logically fallacious going on. To the question "Why don't you move somewhere else?" You are completely free to respond "Because I would rather change [what I perceive to be] the flaws of this country rather than moving."
It may very well be a poor argument, but it's not a logical fallacy
People are too quick to jump on the "fallacy" bandwagon. There is no logical fallacy occurring here. It may very well be an argument that is not particularly convincing (In fact, I wouldn't use the argument), but there is nothing logically fallacious about it.
If a person asks
"If you don't like America, why don't you move somewhere else?"
Bread states that "there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge," however this seems somewhat of a stretch. This is clearly reading more into what was said, than what was actually being said (In fact, this appears to be a straw man argument, which is ironically a fallacy itself). From this phrasing there is nothing that says that moving is the only way to achieve change. It just raises moving as an option. Clearly, this is an option that many people take, because people migrate all the time to countries they prefer to live in. In some cases it may even be the preferred way to achieve the change that you wish in your life.
Let's take a similar example. Consider the following statement:
"If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?"
Would anyone seriously think that this person is suggesting that working more hours per week is the only possible way to earn more money? I think that most people can see that they are simply raising one possible avenue of earning more money.
Instead, if someone said
"If you don't like America, your only option is to move somewhere else."
Then, sure, their statement would be logically fallacious.
On the other hand, Mark Andrews analyzes the statement as
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
But again, there is nothing fallacious in thinking "I like the country as it is; I would prefer if you didn't change it; therefore I would prefer that you leave rather than changing the country." Again, I'm not telling you to be convinced by the argument. But there is really nothing logically fallacious going on. To the question "Why don't you move somewhere else?" You are completely free to respond "Because I would rather change [what I perceive to be] the flaws of this country rather than moving."
edited Nov 22 at 13:20
answered Nov 22 at 8:58
Eff
2,5652312
2,5652312
5
The problem with this answer is that the ‘why don’t you move’ is almost never a sincere question (citation needed, yadayada), but a suggestion to just leave if you don’t like it.
– Sebastiaan van den Broek
2 days ago
3
@SebastiaanvandenBroek I have addressed comments such as that, you can see in the chat. Basically, the answer to such comments is: it doesn't matter with regard to it being logically fallacious or not. The person may not be sincere and you may be totally correct to criticize them for that, but that does not make the statement logically fallacious. Remember, just because I am saying that no logical fallacy is occurring, that does not mean I approve.
– Eff
2 days ago
1
However, aren't there at least two implications involved here: 1. one is that the person invoking this "argument" is implicitly stating that no other options are acceptable (without giving a reason), and 2. that the suggestion of moving is for the person hirself to "improve" hir own life and thus an implicit dismissal of the possibility that hir concern might also include others (who will not be "cured" by hir own act of moving were and could sie do it), that is, a presumption of egocentrism?
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
1
It may not be a fallacy, but the implicit assumption that moving away is what the disgruntled person desires is faulty. The person may enjoy living in the US, and therefore wants to make it a better place. Or the person may hate to live in the US, but would suffer even more if they were to move away.
– henning
2 days ago
1
@aroth You may disagree, but the fundamental point of my answer is that: No, it is not me who has a unconvential interpretation, but the fallacious interpretation is the unconvential one. I give some support for this by bringing in the example "If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?" I suggest--and you may disagree--that very few people would actually interpret this as working more hours per week is the only option. It seems to me that people are invoking a special interpretation in this specific case which they wouldn't in other equivalent cases.
– Eff
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
5
The problem with this answer is that the ‘why don’t you move’ is almost never a sincere question (citation needed, yadayada), but a suggestion to just leave if you don’t like it.
– Sebastiaan van den Broek
2 days ago
3
@SebastiaanvandenBroek I have addressed comments such as that, you can see in the chat. Basically, the answer to such comments is: it doesn't matter with regard to it being logically fallacious or not. The person may not be sincere and you may be totally correct to criticize them for that, but that does not make the statement logically fallacious. Remember, just because I am saying that no logical fallacy is occurring, that does not mean I approve.
– Eff
2 days ago
1
However, aren't there at least two implications involved here: 1. one is that the person invoking this "argument" is implicitly stating that no other options are acceptable (without giving a reason), and 2. that the suggestion of moving is for the person hirself to "improve" hir own life and thus an implicit dismissal of the possibility that hir concern might also include others (who will not be "cured" by hir own act of moving were and could sie do it), that is, a presumption of egocentrism?
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
1
It may not be a fallacy, but the implicit assumption that moving away is what the disgruntled person desires is faulty. The person may enjoy living in the US, and therefore wants to make it a better place. Or the person may hate to live in the US, but would suffer even more if they were to move away.
– henning
2 days ago
1
@aroth You may disagree, but the fundamental point of my answer is that: No, it is not me who has a unconvential interpretation, but the fallacious interpretation is the unconvential one. I give some support for this by bringing in the example "If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?" I suggest--and you may disagree--that very few people would actually interpret this as working more hours per week is the only option. It seems to me that people are invoking a special interpretation in this specific case which they wouldn't in other equivalent cases.
– Eff
yesterday
5
5
The problem with this answer is that the ‘why don’t you move’ is almost never a sincere question (citation needed, yadayada), but a suggestion to just leave if you don’t like it.
– Sebastiaan van den Broek
2 days ago
The problem with this answer is that the ‘why don’t you move’ is almost never a sincere question (citation needed, yadayada), but a suggestion to just leave if you don’t like it.
– Sebastiaan van den Broek
2 days ago
3
3
@SebastiaanvandenBroek I have addressed comments such as that, you can see in the chat. Basically, the answer to such comments is: it doesn't matter with regard to it being logically fallacious or not. The person may not be sincere and you may be totally correct to criticize them for that, but that does not make the statement logically fallacious. Remember, just because I am saying that no logical fallacy is occurring, that does not mean I approve.
– Eff
2 days ago
@SebastiaanvandenBroek I have addressed comments such as that, you can see in the chat. Basically, the answer to such comments is: it doesn't matter with regard to it being logically fallacious or not. The person may not be sincere and you may be totally correct to criticize them for that, but that does not make the statement logically fallacious. Remember, just because I am saying that no logical fallacy is occurring, that does not mean I approve.
– Eff
2 days ago
1
1
However, aren't there at least two implications involved here: 1. one is that the person invoking this "argument" is implicitly stating that no other options are acceptable (without giving a reason), and 2. that the suggestion of moving is for the person hirself to "improve" hir own life and thus an implicit dismissal of the possibility that hir concern might also include others (who will not be "cured" by hir own act of moving were and could sie do it), that is, a presumption of egocentrism?
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
However, aren't there at least two implications involved here: 1. one is that the person invoking this "argument" is implicitly stating that no other options are acceptable (without giving a reason), and 2. that the suggestion of moving is for the person hirself to "improve" hir own life and thus an implicit dismissal of the possibility that hir concern might also include others (who will not be "cured" by hir own act of moving were and could sie do it), that is, a presumption of egocentrism?
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
1
1
It may not be a fallacy, but the implicit assumption that moving away is what the disgruntled person desires is faulty. The person may enjoy living in the US, and therefore wants to make it a better place. Or the person may hate to live in the US, but would suffer even more if they were to move away.
– henning
2 days ago
It may not be a fallacy, but the implicit assumption that moving away is what the disgruntled person desires is faulty. The person may enjoy living in the US, and therefore wants to make it a better place. Or the person may hate to live in the US, but would suffer even more if they were to move away.
– henning
2 days ago
1
1
@aroth You may disagree, but the fundamental point of my answer is that: No, it is not me who has a unconvential interpretation, but the fallacious interpretation is the unconvential one. I give some support for this by bringing in the example "If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?" I suggest--and you may disagree--that very few people would actually interpret this as working more hours per week is the only option. It seems to me that people are invoking a special interpretation in this specific case which they wouldn't in other equivalent cases.
– Eff
yesterday
@aroth You may disagree, but the fundamental point of my answer is that: No, it is not me who has a unconvential interpretation, but the fallacious interpretation is the unconvential one. I give some support for this by bringing in the example "If you want to earn more money, why don't you work more hours per week?" I suggest--and you may disagree--that very few people would actually interpret this as working more hours per week is the only option. It seems to me that people are invoking a special interpretation in this specific case which they wouldn't in other equivalent cases.
– Eff
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
104
down vote
It is the False Dilemma or Bifurcation Fallacy.
If you don't like it, then move.
Let's say you have caused some problems by questioning the decisions, speech, and actions of someone who is actively seeking social, economic, and/or political power. And you're confident that you have every right -- or even duty -- to do so. Those in power who are profiting from the situation aren't willing to change anything, hence they feel threatened by any kind of criticism. So they choose to solve the problem by employing a logically twisted rhetorical tactic against you in order to get rid of you fast. They assume that you aren't intelligent or educated enough to catch the fallacy in their argument. It goes like this:
Either you agree with the way we're handling things, or you don't.
If you like it, you're no threat to us (you can stay).
But your dissent creates a dilemma for us (so you can't stay). "Move."
The point is, they offer no other options. Just two: agree and stay, or disagree and leave. They're not willing to discuss it with you, because they know they'll lose that argument, so they're going to insist that you go away. But since they don't want to argue with you, they want you to think it's your choice. Thus they create a false dilemma.
"It's too bad you don't like it, because that means you should leave."
Well, not really. It doesn't have to mean that you should leave, because there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge. You might prefer to remain in the land of your forefathers, the land that you love, and work diligently to improve the socio-political climate where you are, along with any other important problems you and your loved ones might be facing there.
Logical Fallacies explains it well:
The bifurcation fallacy is committed when a false dilemma is presented, i.e. when someone is asked to choose between two options when there is at least one other option available. Of course, arguments that restrict the options to more than two but less than there really are, are similarly fallacious.
Example:
- (1) Either a Creator brought the universe into existence, or the universe came into existence out of nothing.
- (2) The universe didn’t come into existence out of nothing (because nothing comes from nothing). Therefore:
- (3) A Creator brought the universe into existence.
The first premise of this argument presents a false dilemma; it might be thought that the universe neither was brought into existence by a Creator nor came into existence out of nothing, because it existed from eternity.
Texas State University, Department of Philosophy, under 'False Dilemma' (an informal fallacy), lists as the first example:
America: Love it or leave it.
13
To add to this, the other choice is to change the society. There's a reason America has Amendments - people have changed their mind over time on how things should be run.
– Graham
Nov 22 at 8:32
9
You have radically changed OP's example into something that is a fallacy, while the original question never was.
– pipe
Nov 22 at 9:19
2
@marshal craft I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to Philosophy, thanks. I liked the example from Logical Fallacies because I believe that logically the eternal universe itself is the "single benevolent" God, although I realize there are many who have problems accepting that idea. However, I didn't pursue that line of thought in my answer, since as an example only, it was not completely on topic. By the way, I found my answer by googling, "fallacies of presumption".
– Bread
Nov 22 at 14:44
3
@DJClayworth Point well taken. But the mere suggestion that a person should "move" out of their own country and give up their citizenship, simply because they disagree with someone engaging in a power struggle over control of said country, is fallacious and frankly absurd. That it may be a rhetorical tactic steeped in politics is completely irrelevant to the truth and reality.
– Bread
Nov 22 at 20:12
7
Just adding another name for this fallacy to aid others who may search for it: Black & White thinking, of the "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort.
– Randall Stewart
Nov 23 at 4:19
|
show 18 more comments
up vote
104
down vote
It is the False Dilemma or Bifurcation Fallacy.
If you don't like it, then move.
Let's say you have caused some problems by questioning the decisions, speech, and actions of someone who is actively seeking social, economic, and/or political power. And you're confident that you have every right -- or even duty -- to do so. Those in power who are profiting from the situation aren't willing to change anything, hence they feel threatened by any kind of criticism. So they choose to solve the problem by employing a logically twisted rhetorical tactic against you in order to get rid of you fast. They assume that you aren't intelligent or educated enough to catch the fallacy in their argument. It goes like this:
Either you agree with the way we're handling things, or you don't.
If you like it, you're no threat to us (you can stay).
But your dissent creates a dilemma for us (so you can't stay). "Move."
The point is, they offer no other options. Just two: agree and stay, or disagree and leave. They're not willing to discuss it with you, because they know they'll lose that argument, so they're going to insist that you go away. But since they don't want to argue with you, they want you to think it's your choice. Thus they create a false dilemma.
"It's too bad you don't like it, because that means you should leave."
Well, not really. It doesn't have to mean that you should leave, because there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge. You might prefer to remain in the land of your forefathers, the land that you love, and work diligently to improve the socio-political climate where you are, along with any other important problems you and your loved ones might be facing there.
Logical Fallacies explains it well:
The bifurcation fallacy is committed when a false dilemma is presented, i.e. when someone is asked to choose between two options when there is at least one other option available. Of course, arguments that restrict the options to more than two but less than there really are, are similarly fallacious.
Example:
- (1) Either a Creator brought the universe into existence, or the universe came into existence out of nothing.
- (2) The universe didn’t come into existence out of nothing (because nothing comes from nothing). Therefore:
- (3) A Creator brought the universe into existence.
The first premise of this argument presents a false dilemma; it might be thought that the universe neither was brought into existence by a Creator nor came into existence out of nothing, because it existed from eternity.
Texas State University, Department of Philosophy, under 'False Dilemma' (an informal fallacy), lists as the first example:
America: Love it or leave it.
13
To add to this, the other choice is to change the society. There's a reason America has Amendments - people have changed their mind over time on how things should be run.
– Graham
Nov 22 at 8:32
9
You have radically changed OP's example into something that is a fallacy, while the original question never was.
– pipe
Nov 22 at 9:19
2
@marshal craft I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to Philosophy, thanks. I liked the example from Logical Fallacies because I believe that logically the eternal universe itself is the "single benevolent" God, although I realize there are many who have problems accepting that idea. However, I didn't pursue that line of thought in my answer, since as an example only, it was not completely on topic. By the way, I found my answer by googling, "fallacies of presumption".
– Bread
Nov 22 at 14:44
3
@DJClayworth Point well taken. But the mere suggestion that a person should "move" out of their own country and give up their citizenship, simply because they disagree with someone engaging in a power struggle over control of said country, is fallacious and frankly absurd. That it may be a rhetorical tactic steeped in politics is completely irrelevant to the truth and reality.
– Bread
Nov 22 at 20:12
7
Just adding another name for this fallacy to aid others who may search for it: Black & White thinking, of the "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort.
– Randall Stewart
Nov 23 at 4:19
|
show 18 more comments
up vote
104
down vote
up vote
104
down vote
It is the False Dilemma or Bifurcation Fallacy.
If you don't like it, then move.
Let's say you have caused some problems by questioning the decisions, speech, and actions of someone who is actively seeking social, economic, and/or political power. And you're confident that you have every right -- or even duty -- to do so. Those in power who are profiting from the situation aren't willing to change anything, hence they feel threatened by any kind of criticism. So they choose to solve the problem by employing a logically twisted rhetorical tactic against you in order to get rid of you fast. They assume that you aren't intelligent or educated enough to catch the fallacy in their argument. It goes like this:
Either you agree with the way we're handling things, or you don't.
If you like it, you're no threat to us (you can stay).
But your dissent creates a dilemma for us (so you can't stay). "Move."
The point is, they offer no other options. Just two: agree and stay, or disagree and leave. They're not willing to discuss it with you, because they know they'll lose that argument, so they're going to insist that you go away. But since they don't want to argue with you, they want you to think it's your choice. Thus they create a false dilemma.
"It's too bad you don't like it, because that means you should leave."
Well, not really. It doesn't have to mean that you should leave, because there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge. You might prefer to remain in the land of your forefathers, the land that you love, and work diligently to improve the socio-political climate where you are, along with any other important problems you and your loved ones might be facing there.
Logical Fallacies explains it well:
The bifurcation fallacy is committed when a false dilemma is presented, i.e. when someone is asked to choose between two options when there is at least one other option available. Of course, arguments that restrict the options to more than two but less than there really are, are similarly fallacious.
Example:
- (1) Either a Creator brought the universe into existence, or the universe came into existence out of nothing.
- (2) The universe didn’t come into existence out of nothing (because nothing comes from nothing). Therefore:
- (3) A Creator brought the universe into existence.
The first premise of this argument presents a false dilemma; it might be thought that the universe neither was brought into existence by a Creator nor came into existence out of nothing, because it existed from eternity.
Texas State University, Department of Philosophy, under 'False Dilemma' (an informal fallacy), lists as the first example:
America: Love it or leave it.
It is the False Dilemma or Bifurcation Fallacy.
If you don't like it, then move.
Let's say you have caused some problems by questioning the decisions, speech, and actions of someone who is actively seeking social, economic, and/or political power. And you're confident that you have every right -- or even duty -- to do so. Those in power who are profiting from the situation aren't willing to change anything, hence they feel threatened by any kind of criticism. So they choose to solve the problem by employing a logically twisted rhetorical tactic against you in order to get rid of you fast. They assume that you aren't intelligent or educated enough to catch the fallacy in their argument. It goes like this:
Either you agree with the way we're handling things, or you don't.
If you like it, you're no threat to us (you can stay).
But your dissent creates a dilemma for us (so you can't stay). "Move."
The point is, they offer no other options. Just two: agree and stay, or disagree and leave. They're not willing to discuss it with you, because they know they'll lose that argument, so they're going to insist that you go away. But since they don't want to argue with you, they want you to think it's your choice. Thus they create a false dilemma.
"It's too bad you don't like it, because that means you should leave."
Well, not really. It doesn't have to mean that you should leave, because there are other options your opponents refuse to acknowledge. You might prefer to remain in the land of your forefathers, the land that you love, and work diligently to improve the socio-political climate where you are, along with any other important problems you and your loved ones might be facing there.
Logical Fallacies explains it well:
The bifurcation fallacy is committed when a false dilemma is presented, i.e. when someone is asked to choose between two options when there is at least one other option available. Of course, arguments that restrict the options to more than two but less than there really are, are similarly fallacious.
Example:
- (1) Either a Creator brought the universe into existence, or the universe came into existence out of nothing.
- (2) The universe didn’t come into existence out of nothing (because nothing comes from nothing). Therefore:
- (3) A Creator brought the universe into existence.
The first premise of this argument presents a false dilemma; it might be thought that the universe neither was brought into existence by a Creator nor came into existence out of nothing, because it existed from eternity.
Texas State University, Department of Philosophy, under 'False Dilemma' (an informal fallacy), lists as the first example:
America: Love it or leave it.
edited yesterday
answered Nov 22 at 5:20
Bread
1,4491412
1,4491412
13
To add to this, the other choice is to change the society. There's a reason America has Amendments - people have changed their mind over time on how things should be run.
– Graham
Nov 22 at 8:32
9
You have radically changed OP's example into something that is a fallacy, while the original question never was.
– pipe
Nov 22 at 9:19
2
@marshal craft I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to Philosophy, thanks. I liked the example from Logical Fallacies because I believe that logically the eternal universe itself is the "single benevolent" God, although I realize there are many who have problems accepting that idea. However, I didn't pursue that line of thought in my answer, since as an example only, it was not completely on topic. By the way, I found my answer by googling, "fallacies of presumption".
– Bread
Nov 22 at 14:44
3
@DJClayworth Point well taken. But the mere suggestion that a person should "move" out of their own country and give up their citizenship, simply because they disagree with someone engaging in a power struggle over control of said country, is fallacious and frankly absurd. That it may be a rhetorical tactic steeped in politics is completely irrelevant to the truth and reality.
– Bread
Nov 22 at 20:12
7
Just adding another name for this fallacy to aid others who may search for it: Black & White thinking, of the "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort.
– Randall Stewart
Nov 23 at 4:19
|
show 18 more comments
13
To add to this, the other choice is to change the society. There's a reason America has Amendments - people have changed their mind over time on how things should be run.
– Graham
Nov 22 at 8:32
9
You have radically changed OP's example into something that is a fallacy, while the original question never was.
– pipe
Nov 22 at 9:19
2
@marshal craft I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to Philosophy, thanks. I liked the example from Logical Fallacies because I believe that logically the eternal universe itself is the "single benevolent" God, although I realize there are many who have problems accepting that idea. However, I didn't pursue that line of thought in my answer, since as an example only, it was not completely on topic. By the way, I found my answer by googling, "fallacies of presumption".
– Bread
Nov 22 at 14:44
3
@DJClayworth Point well taken. But the mere suggestion that a person should "move" out of their own country and give up their citizenship, simply because they disagree with someone engaging in a power struggle over control of said country, is fallacious and frankly absurd. That it may be a rhetorical tactic steeped in politics is completely irrelevant to the truth and reality.
– Bread
Nov 22 at 20:12
7
Just adding another name for this fallacy to aid others who may search for it: Black & White thinking, of the "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort.
– Randall Stewart
Nov 23 at 4:19
13
13
To add to this, the other choice is to change the society. There's a reason America has Amendments - people have changed their mind over time on how things should be run.
– Graham
Nov 22 at 8:32
To add to this, the other choice is to change the society. There's a reason America has Amendments - people have changed their mind over time on how things should be run.
– Graham
Nov 22 at 8:32
9
9
You have radically changed OP's example into something that is a fallacy, while the original question never was.
– pipe
Nov 22 at 9:19
You have radically changed OP's example into something that is a fallacy, while the original question never was.
– pipe
Nov 22 at 9:19
2
2
@marshal craft I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to Philosophy, thanks. I liked the example from Logical Fallacies because I believe that logically the eternal universe itself is the "single benevolent" God, although I realize there are many who have problems accepting that idea. However, I didn't pursue that line of thought in my answer, since as an example only, it was not completely on topic. By the way, I found my answer by googling, "fallacies of presumption".
– Bread
Nov 22 at 14:44
@marshal craft I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to Philosophy, thanks. I liked the example from Logical Fallacies because I believe that logically the eternal universe itself is the "single benevolent" God, although I realize there are many who have problems accepting that idea. However, I didn't pursue that line of thought in my answer, since as an example only, it was not completely on topic. By the way, I found my answer by googling, "fallacies of presumption".
– Bread
Nov 22 at 14:44
3
3
@DJClayworth Point well taken. But the mere suggestion that a person should "move" out of their own country and give up their citizenship, simply because they disagree with someone engaging in a power struggle over control of said country, is fallacious and frankly absurd. That it may be a rhetorical tactic steeped in politics is completely irrelevant to the truth and reality.
– Bread
Nov 22 at 20:12
@DJClayworth Point well taken. But the mere suggestion that a person should "move" out of their own country and give up their citizenship, simply because they disagree with someone engaging in a power struggle over control of said country, is fallacious and frankly absurd. That it may be a rhetorical tactic steeped in politics is completely irrelevant to the truth and reality.
– Bread
Nov 22 at 20:12
7
7
Just adding another name for this fallacy to aid others who may search for it: Black & White thinking, of the "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort.
– Randall Stewart
Nov 23 at 4:19
Just adding another name for this fallacy to aid others who may search for it: Black & White thinking, of the "Either you're with us or you're against us" sort.
– Randall Stewart
Nov 23 at 4:19
|
show 18 more comments
up vote
47
down vote
There is no argument, therefore there can be no fallacy
There is no fallacy here, no logical error in argument as e.g. in affirming the consequent. This is so because there is no argument here at all - only an expression of viewpoint. Fallacy presupposes argument. No argument, no fallacy : the concepts are tied.
1
It's not that I disagree with what you've said. In fact, I agree. But does it really answer the question? Is the statement a fallacy? If so, which? I totally agree that there are many costs associated with leaving a country, but I don't see how that makes the statement a fallacy. It just lends itself to an easy answer. Question: "If you don't like the country, why don't you move?" Answer: "Because the costs associated with moving are too high [because of X or Y], and I would prefer to change the country that I live in for the better." No fallacy occurred, just responded to the question.
– Eff
Nov 22 at 9:44
1
>"status quo is fine, great or at least all right : so leave us alone and go" - Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually trying to preserve status quo. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:47
1
@Philbo. I accept your point. These other examples could have been used. I took the question to be directly political and I've a sense from the questioner's edit that politics was on his mind. But your comment is illuminating. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
Nov 23 at 12:49
2
Giving a reluctant upvote here because the first 3 paragraphs stating that there is no argument and therefore no fallacy are a complete, correct and succinct answer to the question. The rest of the answer is not that necessary or helpful.
– Mark Meuer
yesterday
1
@GeoffreyThomas From perspective here the complete answer is the first paragraph, with the remainder reading as an apology for the direct answer. The second paragraph could be included in the answer, though begins the apology for the first paragraph which is continued for the rest of the answer; thereby decreasing or negating the value of the first paragraph, leaving room for the reader to become distracted by the apologies (for either viewpoint) in the remainder of the answer. Note also, and importantly, the text of the question does not state "One person has expressed dislike of America"
– guest271314
yesterday
|
show 13 more comments
up vote
47
down vote
There is no argument, therefore there can be no fallacy
There is no fallacy here, no logical error in argument as e.g. in affirming the consequent. This is so because there is no argument here at all - only an expression of viewpoint. Fallacy presupposes argument. No argument, no fallacy : the concepts are tied.
1
It's not that I disagree with what you've said. In fact, I agree. But does it really answer the question? Is the statement a fallacy? If so, which? I totally agree that there are many costs associated with leaving a country, but I don't see how that makes the statement a fallacy. It just lends itself to an easy answer. Question: "If you don't like the country, why don't you move?" Answer: "Because the costs associated with moving are too high [because of X or Y], and I would prefer to change the country that I live in for the better." No fallacy occurred, just responded to the question.
– Eff
Nov 22 at 9:44
1
>"status quo is fine, great or at least all right : so leave us alone and go" - Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually trying to preserve status quo. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:47
1
@Philbo. I accept your point. These other examples could have been used. I took the question to be directly political and I've a sense from the questioner's edit that politics was on his mind. But your comment is illuminating. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
Nov 23 at 12:49
2
Giving a reluctant upvote here because the first 3 paragraphs stating that there is no argument and therefore no fallacy are a complete, correct and succinct answer to the question. The rest of the answer is not that necessary or helpful.
– Mark Meuer
yesterday
1
@GeoffreyThomas From perspective here the complete answer is the first paragraph, with the remainder reading as an apology for the direct answer. The second paragraph could be included in the answer, though begins the apology for the first paragraph which is continued for the rest of the answer; thereby decreasing or negating the value of the first paragraph, leaving room for the reader to become distracted by the apologies (for either viewpoint) in the remainder of the answer. Note also, and importantly, the text of the question does not state "One person has expressed dislike of America"
– guest271314
yesterday
|
show 13 more comments
up vote
47
down vote
up vote
47
down vote
There is no argument, therefore there can be no fallacy
There is no fallacy here, no logical error in argument as e.g. in affirming the consequent. This is so because there is no argument here at all - only an expression of viewpoint. Fallacy presupposes argument. No argument, no fallacy : the concepts are tied.
There is no argument, therefore there can be no fallacy
There is no fallacy here, no logical error in argument as e.g. in affirming the consequent. This is so because there is no argument here at all - only an expression of viewpoint. Fallacy presupposes argument. No argument, no fallacy : the concepts are tied.
edited yesterday
guest271314
1134
1134
answered Nov 22 at 9:39
Geoffrey Thomas♦
21.9k22087
21.9k22087
1
It's not that I disagree with what you've said. In fact, I agree. But does it really answer the question? Is the statement a fallacy? If so, which? I totally agree that there are many costs associated with leaving a country, but I don't see how that makes the statement a fallacy. It just lends itself to an easy answer. Question: "If you don't like the country, why don't you move?" Answer: "Because the costs associated with moving are too high [because of X or Y], and I would prefer to change the country that I live in for the better." No fallacy occurred, just responded to the question.
– Eff
Nov 22 at 9:44
1
>"status quo is fine, great or at least all right : so leave us alone and go" - Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually trying to preserve status quo. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:47
1
@Philbo. I accept your point. These other examples could have been used. I took the question to be directly political and I've a sense from the questioner's edit that politics was on his mind. But your comment is illuminating. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
Nov 23 at 12:49
2
Giving a reluctant upvote here because the first 3 paragraphs stating that there is no argument and therefore no fallacy are a complete, correct and succinct answer to the question. The rest of the answer is not that necessary or helpful.
– Mark Meuer
yesterday
1
@GeoffreyThomas From perspective here the complete answer is the first paragraph, with the remainder reading as an apology for the direct answer. The second paragraph could be included in the answer, though begins the apology for the first paragraph which is continued for the rest of the answer; thereby decreasing or negating the value of the first paragraph, leaving room for the reader to become distracted by the apologies (for either viewpoint) in the remainder of the answer. Note also, and importantly, the text of the question does not state "One person has expressed dislike of America"
– guest271314
yesterday
|
show 13 more comments
1
It's not that I disagree with what you've said. In fact, I agree. But does it really answer the question? Is the statement a fallacy? If so, which? I totally agree that there are many costs associated with leaving a country, but I don't see how that makes the statement a fallacy. It just lends itself to an easy answer. Question: "If you don't like the country, why don't you move?" Answer: "Because the costs associated with moving are too high [because of X or Y], and I would prefer to change the country that I live in for the better." No fallacy occurred, just responded to the question.
– Eff
Nov 22 at 9:44
1
>"status quo is fine, great or at least all right : so leave us alone and go" - Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually trying to preserve status quo. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:47
1
@Philbo. I accept your point. These other examples could have been used. I took the question to be directly political and I've a sense from the questioner's edit that politics was on his mind. But your comment is illuminating. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
Nov 23 at 12:49
2
Giving a reluctant upvote here because the first 3 paragraphs stating that there is no argument and therefore no fallacy are a complete, correct and succinct answer to the question. The rest of the answer is not that necessary or helpful.
– Mark Meuer
yesterday
1
@GeoffreyThomas From perspective here the complete answer is the first paragraph, with the remainder reading as an apology for the direct answer. The second paragraph could be included in the answer, though begins the apology for the first paragraph which is continued for the rest of the answer; thereby decreasing or negating the value of the first paragraph, leaving room for the reader to become distracted by the apologies (for either viewpoint) in the remainder of the answer. Note also, and importantly, the text of the question does not state "One person has expressed dislike of America"
– guest271314
yesterday
1
1
It's not that I disagree with what you've said. In fact, I agree. But does it really answer the question? Is the statement a fallacy? If so, which? I totally agree that there are many costs associated with leaving a country, but I don't see how that makes the statement a fallacy. It just lends itself to an easy answer. Question: "If you don't like the country, why don't you move?" Answer: "Because the costs associated with moving are too high [because of X or Y], and I would prefer to change the country that I live in for the better." No fallacy occurred, just responded to the question.
– Eff
Nov 22 at 9:44
It's not that I disagree with what you've said. In fact, I agree. But does it really answer the question? Is the statement a fallacy? If so, which? I totally agree that there are many costs associated with leaving a country, but I don't see how that makes the statement a fallacy. It just lends itself to an easy answer. Question: "If you don't like the country, why don't you move?" Answer: "Because the costs associated with moving are too high [because of X or Y], and I would prefer to change the country that I live in for the better." No fallacy occurred, just responded to the question.
– Eff
Nov 22 at 9:44
1
1
>"status quo is fine, great or at least all right : so leave us alone and go" - Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually trying to preserve status quo. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:47
>"status quo is fine, great or at least all right : so leave us alone and go" - Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually trying to preserve status quo. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:47
1
1
@Philbo. I accept your point. These other examples could have been used. I took the question to be directly political and I've a sense from the questioner's edit that politics was on his mind. But your comment is illuminating. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
Nov 23 at 12:49
@Philbo. I accept your point. These other examples could have been used. I took the question to be directly political and I've a sense from the questioner's edit that politics was on his mind. But your comment is illuminating. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
Nov 23 at 12:49
2
2
Giving a reluctant upvote here because the first 3 paragraphs stating that there is no argument and therefore no fallacy are a complete, correct and succinct answer to the question. The rest of the answer is not that necessary or helpful.
– Mark Meuer
yesterday
Giving a reluctant upvote here because the first 3 paragraphs stating that there is no argument and therefore no fallacy are a complete, correct and succinct answer to the question. The rest of the answer is not that necessary or helpful.
– Mark Meuer
yesterday
1
1
@GeoffreyThomas From perspective here the complete answer is the first paragraph, with the remainder reading as an apology for the direct answer. The second paragraph could be included in the answer, though begins the apology for the first paragraph which is continued for the rest of the answer; thereby decreasing or negating the value of the first paragraph, leaving room for the reader to become distracted by the apologies (for either viewpoint) in the remainder of the answer. Note also, and importantly, the text of the question does not state "One person has expressed dislike of America"
– guest271314
yesterday
@GeoffreyThomas From perspective here the complete answer is the first paragraph, with the remainder reading as an apology for the direct answer. The second paragraph could be included in the answer, though begins the apology for the first paragraph which is continued for the rest of the answer; thereby decreasing or negating the value of the first paragraph, leaving room for the reader to become distracted by the apologies (for either viewpoint) in the remainder of the answer. Note also, and importantly, the text of the question does not state "One person has expressed dislike of America"
– guest271314
yesterday
|
show 13 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
I suppose that there are a whole pile of fallacies behind such arguments. The one that first comes to mind is that the argument assumes what it sets out to prove.
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
I suppose that there are a whole pile of fallacies behind such arguments. The one that first comes to mind is that the argument assumes what it sets out to prove.
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
up vote
12
down vote
I suppose that there are a whole pile of fallacies behind such arguments. The one that first comes to mind is that the argument assumes what it sets out to prove.
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
I suppose that there are a whole pile of fallacies behind such arguments. The one that first comes to mind is that the argument assumes what it sets out to prove.
“There is nothing seriously wrong with this society, so the problem must lie in your own attitudes.” That is the conclusion. When the proponent recommends that the other person leave the country, the validity of this conclusion is taken as a given. The question of the truth or falsehood of the conclusion (which has become the assumption) is sidestepped completely.
answered Nov 22 at 3:01
Mark Andrews
2,5001623
2,5001623
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
It is not a fallacy at all
First of all, this kind of criticism is usually aimed at people who are first or second generation immigrants. They came in US searching for better life conditions, which implies that their own old country had worse life conditions, and they were unable to improve them. If they could not improve a country with a lower living standard (lower goal post), there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve a country with a higher living standard (higher goal post). In fact, possible outcome could be worse living standard for US citizens.
Second, even when this critique is not aimed to immigrants, there is another problem. Person X could argue that he wants US to resemble some other country, let's say Sweden. Currently, large parts of US population abhor idea of US looking like Sweden. Therefore, person X has a long struggle ahead of him to convince or force others to accept his Swedish ideas. It would be more economical for him just to move to Sweden, instead of wasting energy and life on something that others do not want.
EDIT: Based on comments bellow, I need to clarify that phrase "if you don't like it, move" should not be considered as an argument in a debate, or as a reason for rejection of certain proposal (idea, request for change). Those arguments and those reasons (rational, irrational , whatever ...) happened before. Person being persuaded is not going to change his mind on certain question, and is simply communicating his decision to person trying to persuade him. Phrase "if you don't like it, move" is just a figure of speech. We could debate do real reason for rejection contain some logical fallacy, but that should be done case by case, not generally.
6
I've heard it said to way more people than first or second generation immigrants.
– Joe
Nov 22 at 16:40
3
I was just about to post what Joe said. My perception is that this challenge is leveled at just about anyone who criticizes the U.S government, U.S. policy, etc.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:12
1
@DavidBlomstrom No. For example, many people criticized Obama and many people now criticize Trump, yet they do not get such reply. Non-immigrants get it when they constantly try to push something that is considered un-American by majority of population and rejected as such. Let's say very strict gun control like in Britain, for example.
– rs.29
Nov 23 at 7:32
1
>"If they could not improve country with lower living standard (lower goal post) there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve country with higher living standard (higher goal post)." - There is a pretty reasonable chance such conclusions are wrong. Improving countries with high or low living standards require different skill sets and different amounts of effort. The correctness rate of you generalization seems poor here.
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:37
3
Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually resisting some change. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:41
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
It is not a fallacy at all
First of all, this kind of criticism is usually aimed at people who are first or second generation immigrants. They came in US searching for better life conditions, which implies that their own old country had worse life conditions, and they were unable to improve them. If they could not improve a country with a lower living standard (lower goal post), there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve a country with a higher living standard (higher goal post). In fact, possible outcome could be worse living standard for US citizens.
Second, even when this critique is not aimed to immigrants, there is another problem. Person X could argue that he wants US to resemble some other country, let's say Sweden. Currently, large parts of US population abhor idea of US looking like Sweden. Therefore, person X has a long struggle ahead of him to convince or force others to accept his Swedish ideas. It would be more economical for him just to move to Sweden, instead of wasting energy and life on something that others do not want.
EDIT: Based on comments bellow, I need to clarify that phrase "if you don't like it, move" should not be considered as an argument in a debate, or as a reason for rejection of certain proposal (idea, request for change). Those arguments and those reasons (rational, irrational , whatever ...) happened before. Person being persuaded is not going to change his mind on certain question, and is simply communicating his decision to person trying to persuade him. Phrase "if you don't like it, move" is just a figure of speech. We could debate do real reason for rejection contain some logical fallacy, but that should be done case by case, not generally.
6
I've heard it said to way more people than first or second generation immigrants.
– Joe
Nov 22 at 16:40
3
I was just about to post what Joe said. My perception is that this challenge is leveled at just about anyone who criticizes the U.S government, U.S. policy, etc.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:12
1
@DavidBlomstrom No. For example, many people criticized Obama and many people now criticize Trump, yet they do not get such reply. Non-immigrants get it when they constantly try to push something that is considered un-American by majority of population and rejected as such. Let's say very strict gun control like in Britain, for example.
– rs.29
Nov 23 at 7:32
1
>"If they could not improve country with lower living standard (lower goal post) there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve country with higher living standard (higher goal post)." - There is a pretty reasonable chance such conclusions are wrong. Improving countries with high or low living standards require different skill sets and different amounts of effort. The correctness rate of you generalization seems poor here.
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:37
3
Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually resisting some change. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:41
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
It is not a fallacy at all
First of all, this kind of criticism is usually aimed at people who are first or second generation immigrants. They came in US searching for better life conditions, which implies that their own old country had worse life conditions, and they were unable to improve them. If they could not improve a country with a lower living standard (lower goal post), there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve a country with a higher living standard (higher goal post). In fact, possible outcome could be worse living standard for US citizens.
Second, even when this critique is not aimed to immigrants, there is another problem. Person X could argue that he wants US to resemble some other country, let's say Sweden. Currently, large parts of US population abhor idea of US looking like Sweden. Therefore, person X has a long struggle ahead of him to convince or force others to accept his Swedish ideas. It would be more economical for him just to move to Sweden, instead of wasting energy and life on something that others do not want.
EDIT: Based on comments bellow, I need to clarify that phrase "if you don't like it, move" should not be considered as an argument in a debate, or as a reason for rejection of certain proposal (idea, request for change). Those arguments and those reasons (rational, irrational , whatever ...) happened before. Person being persuaded is not going to change his mind on certain question, and is simply communicating his decision to person trying to persuade him. Phrase "if you don't like it, move" is just a figure of speech. We could debate do real reason for rejection contain some logical fallacy, but that should be done case by case, not generally.
It is not a fallacy at all
First of all, this kind of criticism is usually aimed at people who are first or second generation immigrants. They came in US searching for better life conditions, which implies that their own old country had worse life conditions, and they were unable to improve them. If they could not improve a country with a lower living standard (lower goal post), there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve a country with a higher living standard (higher goal post). In fact, possible outcome could be worse living standard for US citizens.
Second, even when this critique is not aimed to immigrants, there is another problem. Person X could argue that he wants US to resemble some other country, let's say Sweden. Currently, large parts of US population abhor idea of US looking like Sweden. Therefore, person X has a long struggle ahead of him to convince or force others to accept his Swedish ideas. It would be more economical for him just to move to Sweden, instead of wasting energy and life on something that others do not want.
EDIT: Based on comments bellow, I need to clarify that phrase "if you don't like it, move" should not be considered as an argument in a debate, or as a reason for rejection of certain proposal (idea, request for change). Those arguments and those reasons (rational, irrational , whatever ...) happened before. Person being persuaded is not going to change his mind on certain question, and is simply communicating his decision to person trying to persuade him. Phrase "if you don't like it, move" is just a figure of speech. We could debate do real reason for rejection contain some logical fallacy, but that should be done case by case, not generally.
edited yesterday
answered Nov 22 at 8:51
rs.29
3127
3127
6
I've heard it said to way more people than first or second generation immigrants.
– Joe
Nov 22 at 16:40
3
I was just about to post what Joe said. My perception is that this challenge is leveled at just about anyone who criticizes the U.S government, U.S. policy, etc.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:12
1
@DavidBlomstrom No. For example, many people criticized Obama and many people now criticize Trump, yet they do not get such reply. Non-immigrants get it when they constantly try to push something that is considered un-American by majority of population and rejected as such. Let's say very strict gun control like in Britain, for example.
– rs.29
Nov 23 at 7:32
1
>"If they could not improve country with lower living standard (lower goal post) there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve country with higher living standard (higher goal post)." - There is a pretty reasonable chance such conclusions are wrong. Improving countries with high or low living standards require different skill sets and different amounts of effort. The correctness rate of you generalization seems poor here.
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:37
3
Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually resisting some change. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:41
|
show 12 more comments
6
I've heard it said to way more people than first or second generation immigrants.
– Joe
Nov 22 at 16:40
3
I was just about to post what Joe said. My perception is that this challenge is leveled at just about anyone who criticizes the U.S government, U.S. policy, etc.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:12
1
@DavidBlomstrom No. For example, many people criticized Obama and many people now criticize Trump, yet they do not get such reply. Non-immigrants get it when they constantly try to push something that is considered un-American by majority of population and rejected as such. Let's say very strict gun control like in Britain, for example.
– rs.29
Nov 23 at 7:32
1
>"If they could not improve country with lower living standard (lower goal post) there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve country with higher living standard (higher goal post)." - There is a pretty reasonable chance such conclusions are wrong. Improving countries with high or low living standards require different skill sets and different amounts of effort. The correctness rate of you generalization seems poor here.
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:37
3
Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually resisting some change. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:41
6
6
I've heard it said to way more people than first or second generation immigrants.
– Joe
Nov 22 at 16:40
I've heard it said to way more people than first or second generation immigrants.
– Joe
Nov 22 at 16:40
3
3
I was just about to post what Joe said. My perception is that this challenge is leveled at just about anyone who criticizes the U.S government, U.S. policy, etc.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:12
I was just about to post what Joe said. My perception is that this challenge is leveled at just about anyone who criticizes the U.S government, U.S. policy, etc.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:12
1
1
@DavidBlomstrom No. For example, many people criticized Obama and many people now criticize Trump, yet they do not get such reply. Non-immigrants get it when they constantly try to push something that is considered un-American by majority of population and rejected as such. Let's say very strict gun control like in Britain, for example.
– rs.29
Nov 23 at 7:32
@DavidBlomstrom No. For example, many people criticized Obama and many people now criticize Trump, yet they do not get such reply. Non-immigrants get it when they constantly try to push something that is considered un-American by majority of population and rejected as such. Let's say very strict gun control like in Britain, for example.
– rs.29
Nov 23 at 7:32
1
1
>"If they could not improve country with lower living standard (lower goal post) there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve country with higher living standard (higher goal post)." - There is a pretty reasonable chance such conclusions are wrong. Improving countries with high or low living standards require different skill sets and different amounts of effort. The correctness rate of you generalization seems poor here.
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:37
>"If they could not improve country with lower living standard (lower goal post) there is a pretty reasonable chance they could not improve country with higher living standard (higher goal post)." - There is a pretty reasonable chance such conclusions are wrong. Improving countries with high or low living standards require different skill sets and different amounts of effort. The correctness rate of you generalization seems poor here.
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:37
3
3
Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually resisting some change. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:41
Ironically I often see this criticism aimed at people who are actually resisting some change. E.g. "If you do not like us turning this lake into toxic sludge, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started maiming journalists we do not like, just move to another country.", "If you do not like that we started stealing you taxes/pension/money, just move to another country."
– Ark-kun
Nov 23 at 8:41
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
This is an Informal Fallacy.
In contrast to a formal fallacy, an informal fallacy originates in a reasoning error other than a flaw in the logical form of the argument.
This is a recommended course of action, albeit it a recommendation born of frustration with the complaint.
To me, the problem is not with recommending that I move. And directed at some people, they could indeed move. the problem is that moving is not a valid solution to the problem that I perceive. "Moving" suggests that I am only capable of selfish interest, and do not care for anybody else in this country, that I do not care about social justice, or the negative effects of corruption, or whatever else my complaint might entail.
Say, for example, that my problem is rampant racism, or sexual harassment of women, or lack of employment rights for gays, or a denial of abortion rights. I don't have to be in any persecuted minority to be upset about any of those. Thus, the suggestion:
If you don't like it, move!
Doesn't address the problem I perceive, if I were living on the other side of the world, or on Mars, I could still be upset about what I perceive as the same injustices in my original home country.
This could also be true when I am in the harmed class to which my complaint applies. If I complain that my Home Owners Association Governors are throwing dinner parties for themselves with my fees, it does not solve the problem for me to move to another neighborhood; or would only address my selfish interest: Implicitly I am complaining about corruption and self-dealing, and the problem is bigger than my own fee, it is a moral position that what is happening is wrong for everybody. Moving out of the neighborhood would not stop the corruption and self-dealing.
A suggested solution that doesn't solve the problem at hand is an "informal fallacy," it is an error in reasoning that has failed to fully consider the nature of the complaint.
4
This answer really nails it. The core issue is that moving does not solve the problem.
– barbecue
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
This is an Informal Fallacy.
In contrast to a formal fallacy, an informal fallacy originates in a reasoning error other than a flaw in the logical form of the argument.
This is a recommended course of action, albeit it a recommendation born of frustration with the complaint.
To me, the problem is not with recommending that I move. And directed at some people, they could indeed move. the problem is that moving is not a valid solution to the problem that I perceive. "Moving" suggests that I am only capable of selfish interest, and do not care for anybody else in this country, that I do not care about social justice, or the negative effects of corruption, or whatever else my complaint might entail.
Say, for example, that my problem is rampant racism, or sexual harassment of women, or lack of employment rights for gays, or a denial of abortion rights. I don't have to be in any persecuted minority to be upset about any of those. Thus, the suggestion:
If you don't like it, move!
Doesn't address the problem I perceive, if I were living on the other side of the world, or on Mars, I could still be upset about what I perceive as the same injustices in my original home country.
This could also be true when I am in the harmed class to which my complaint applies. If I complain that my Home Owners Association Governors are throwing dinner parties for themselves with my fees, it does not solve the problem for me to move to another neighborhood; or would only address my selfish interest: Implicitly I am complaining about corruption and self-dealing, and the problem is bigger than my own fee, it is a moral position that what is happening is wrong for everybody. Moving out of the neighborhood would not stop the corruption and self-dealing.
A suggested solution that doesn't solve the problem at hand is an "informal fallacy," it is an error in reasoning that has failed to fully consider the nature of the complaint.
4
This answer really nails it. The core issue is that moving does not solve the problem.
– barbecue
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
This is an Informal Fallacy.
In contrast to a formal fallacy, an informal fallacy originates in a reasoning error other than a flaw in the logical form of the argument.
This is a recommended course of action, albeit it a recommendation born of frustration with the complaint.
To me, the problem is not with recommending that I move. And directed at some people, they could indeed move. the problem is that moving is not a valid solution to the problem that I perceive. "Moving" suggests that I am only capable of selfish interest, and do not care for anybody else in this country, that I do not care about social justice, or the negative effects of corruption, or whatever else my complaint might entail.
Say, for example, that my problem is rampant racism, or sexual harassment of women, or lack of employment rights for gays, or a denial of abortion rights. I don't have to be in any persecuted minority to be upset about any of those. Thus, the suggestion:
If you don't like it, move!
Doesn't address the problem I perceive, if I were living on the other side of the world, or on Mars, I could still be upset about what I perceive as the same injustices in my original home country.
This could also be true when I am in the harmed class to which my complaint applies. If I complain that my Home Owners Association Governors are throwing dinner parties for themselves with my fees, it does not solve the problem for me to move to another neighborhood; or would only address my selfish interest: Implicitly I am complaining about corruption and self-dealing, and the problem is bigger than my own fee, it is a moral position that what is happening is wrong for everybody. Moving out of the neighborhood would not stop the corruption and self-dealing.
A suggested solution that doesn't solve the problem at hand is an "informal fallacy," it is an error in reasoning that has failed to fully consider the nature of the complaint.
This is an Informal Fallacy.
In contrast to a formal fallacy, an informal fallacy originates in a reasoning error other than a flaw in the logical form of the argument.
This is a recommended course of action, albeit it a recommendation born of frustration with the complaint.
To me, the problem is not with recommending that I move. And directed at some people, they could indeed move. the problem is that moving is not a valid solution to the problem that I perceive. "Moving" suggests that I am only capable of selfish interest, and do not care for anybody else in this country, that I do not care about social justice, or the negative effects of corruption, or whatever else my complaint might entail.
Say, for example, that my problem is rampant racism, or sexual harassment of women, or lack of employment rights for gays, or a denial of abortion rights. I don't have to be in any persecuted minority to be upset about any of those. Thus, the suggestion:
If you don't like it, move!
Doesn't address the problem I perceive, if I were living on the other side of the world, or on Mars, I could still be upset about what I perceive as the same injustices in my original home country.
This could also be true when I am in the harmed class to which my complaint applies. If I complain that my Home Owners Association Governors are throwing dinner parties for themselves with my fees, it does not solve the problem for me to move to another neighborhood; or would only address my selfish interest: Implicitly I am complaining about corruption and self-dealing, and the problem is bigger than my own fee, it is a moral position that what is happening is wrong for everybody. Moving out of the neighborhood would not stop the corruption and self-dealing.
A suggested solution that doesn't solve the problem at hand is an "informal fallacy," it is an error in reasoning that has failed to fully consider the nature of the complaint.
answered Nov 25 at 18:30
Amadeus
1913
1913
4
This answer really nails it. The core issue is that moving does not solve the problem.
– barbecue
yesterday
add a comment |
4
This answer really nails it. The core issue is that moving does not solve the problem.
– barbecue
yesterday
4
4
This answer really nails it. The core issue is that moving does not solve the problem.
– barbecue
yesterday
This answer really nails it. The core issue is that moving does not solve the problem.
– barbecue
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
7
down vote
A good way of responding to a question, even one asked in bad faith, is to answer it in good faith.
If someone asks you, "Why don't you just move?" Consider the question, then answer them. Why don't you move? This shows you take them seriously and helps them understand you. It can also help you understand yourself better. It can also help deescalate an argument.
If the question is instead phrased like a command "If you don't like it, then move." You can still treat it as a question and explain your reasons for not moving, or put in conditions. "I would love to move, but the financial costs and the risks involved are to high. Or: my family, friends and job is here, I do not want to abandon them."
Just make sure your explanations are sincere and not just attempts to deflect the question. Example of an insincere answer would be claiming it is to expensive and asking them to finance the move, then if they would say yes you would change your mind.
While identifying fallacies can be fun, in this case I think it would be pointless. "Why don't you just move?" Isn't a logical argument, it is an emotional one. They are not really trying to put forth a logical argument, they are expressing frustration with the discussion. My answer would be to address that frustration instead of trying to catch them in a logical fallacy.
New contributor
1
My favorite way to respond is "Why should I move? You're the one who sucks!" or "I'll move to Somalia if you move to North Korea."
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:58
1
A good answer (which I upvoted); just a pity that it doesn't address the question :-)
– Mawg
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
7
down vote
A good way of responding to a question, even one asked in bad faith, is to answer it in good faith.
If someone asks you, "Why don't you just move?" Consider the question, then answer them. Why don't you move? This shows you take them seriously and helps them understand you. It can also help you understand yourself better. It can also help deescalate an argument.
If the question is instead phrased like a command "If you don't like it, then move." You can still treat it as a question and explain your reasons for not moving, or put in conditions. "I would love to move, but the financial costs and the risks involved are to high. Or: my family, friends and job is here, I do not want to abandon them."
Just make sure your explanations are sincere and not just attempts to deflect the question. Example of an insincere answer would be claiming it is to expensive and asking them to finance the move, then if they would say yes you would change your mind.
While identifying fallacies can be fun, in this case I think it would be pointless. "Why don't you just move?" Isn't a logical argument, it is an emotional one. They are not really trying to put forth a logical argument, they are expressing frustration with the discussion. My answer would be to address that frustration instead of trying to catch them in a logical fallacy.
New contributor
1
My favorite way to respond is "Why should I move? You're the one who sucks!" or "I'll move to Somalia if you move to North Korea."
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:58
1
A good answer (which I upvoted); just a pity that it doesn't address the question :-)
– Mawg
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
7
down vote
up vote
7
down vote
A good way of responding to a question, even one asked in bad faith, is to answer it in good faith.
If someone asks you, "Why don't you just move?" Consider the question, then answer them. Why don't you move? This shows you take them seriously and helps them understand you. It can also help you understand yourself better. It can also help deescalate an argument.
If the question is instead phrased like a command "If you don't like it, then move." You can still treat it as a question and explain your reasons for not moving, or put in conditions. "I would love to move, but the financial costs and the risks involved are to high. Or: my family, friends and job is here, I do not want to abandon them."
Just make sure your explanations are sincere and not just attempts to deflect the question. Example of an insincere answer would be claiming it is to expensive and asking them to finance the move, then if they would say yes you would change your mind.
While identifying fallacies can be fun, in this case I think it would be pointless. "Why don't you just move?" Isn't a logical argument, it is an emotional one. They are not really trying to put forth a logical argument, they are expressing frustration with the discussion. My answer would be to address that frustration instead of trying to catch them in a logical fallacy.
New contributor
A good way of responding to a question, even one asked in bad faith, is to answer it in good faith.
If someone asks you, "Why don't you just move?" Consider the question, then answer them. Why don't you move? This shows you take them seriously and helps them understand you. It can also help you understand yourself better. It can also help deescalate an argument.
If the question is instead phrased like a command "If you don't like it, then move." You can still treat it as a question and explain your reasons for not moving, or put in conditions. "I would love to move, but the financial costs and the risks involved are to high. Or: my family, friends and job is here, I do not want to abandon them."
Just make sure your explanations are sincere and not just attempts to deflect the question. Example of an insincere answer would be claiming it is to expensive and asking them to finance the move, then if they would say yes you would change your mind.
While identifying fallacies can be fun, in this case I think it would be pointless. "Why don't you just move?" Isn't a logical argument, it is an emotional one. They are not really trying to put forth a logical argument, they are expressing frustration with the discussion. My answer would be to address that frustration instead of trying to catch them in a logical fallacy.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Nov 23 at 8:57
zomg
711
711
New contributor
New contributor
1
My favorite way to respond is "Why should I move? You're the one who sucks!" or "I'll move to Somalia if you move to North Korea."
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:58
1
A good answer (which I upvoted); just a pity that it doesn't address the question :-)
– Mawg
2 days ago
add a comment |
1
My favorite way to respond is "Why should I move? You're the one who sucks!" or "I'll move to Somalia if you move to North Korea."
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:58
1
A good answer (which I upvoted); just a pity that it doesn't address the question :-)
– Mawg
2 days ago
1
1
My favorite way to respond is "Why should I move? You're the one who sucks!" or "I'll move to Somalia if you move to North Korea."
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:58
My favorite way to respond is "Why should I move? You're the one who sucks!" or "I'll move to Somalia if you move to North Korea."
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:58
1
1
A good answer (which I upvoted); just a pity that it doesn't address the question :-)
– Mawg
2 days ago
A good answer (which I upvoted); just a pity that it doesn't address the question :-)
– Mawg
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
Simply on the basis of seeing this bumper sticker quite often throughout my life here in America I am also going to include the Bandwagon fallacy, ad populum. Just because it seems to be a popular and damaging argument used through advertisement.
I also agree with the bifurcation fallacy based on it assuming there is only ONE option in this situation of not liking where you are.
And I am also going to include, ad hominem fallacy, because I feel the insinuation may be directed toward immigrants or any minority in disagreement with current laws or traditions or sacrosanct arguments and can include such aspects as: culture, education level, religion, ethnic majority, eccentric behaviors, gender preference etc.
BINGO! I was just about to add a comment that, to my mind, this sounds kind of like an ad hominem attack.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:13
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
Simply on the basis of seeing this bumper sticker quite often throughout my life here in America I am also going to include the Bandwagon fallacy, ad populum. Just because it seems to be a popular and damaging argument used through advertisement.
I also agree with the bifurcation fallacy based on it assuming there is only ONE option in this situation of not liking where you are.
And I am also going to include, ad hominem fallacy, because I feel the insinuation may be directed toward immigrants or any minority in disagreement with current laws or traditions or sacrosanct arguments and can include such aspects as: culture, education level, religion, ethnic majority, eccentric behaviors, gender preference etc.
BINGO! I was just about to add a comment that, to my mind, this sounds kind of like an ad hominem attack.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:13
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
Simply on the basis of seeing this bumper sticker quite often throughout my life here in America I am also going to include the Bandwagon fallacy, ad populum. Just because it seems to be a popular and damaging argument used through advertisement.
I also agree with the bifurcation fallacy based on it assuming there is only ONE option in this situation of not liking where you are.
And I am also going to include, ad hominem fallacy, because I feel the insinuation may be directed toward immigrants or any minority in disagreement with current laws or traditions or sacrosanct arguments and can include such aspects as: culture, education level, religion, ethnic majority, eccentric behaviors, gender preference etc.
Simply on the basis of seeing this bumper sticker quite often throughout my life here in America I am also going to include the Bandwagon fallacy, ad populum. Just because it seems to be a popular and damaging argument used through advertisement.
I also agree with the bifurcation fallacy based on it assuming there is only ONE option in this situation of not liking where you are.
And I am also going to include, ad hominem fallacy, because I feel the insinuation may be directed toward immigrants or any minority in disagreement with current laws or traditions or sacrosanct arguments and can include such aspects as: culture, education level, religion, ethnic majority, eccentric behaviors, gender preference etc.
answered Nov 22 at 17:50
Robus
1148
1148
BINGO! I was just about to add a comment that, to my mind, this sounds kind of like an ad hominem attack.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:13
add a comment |
BINGO! I was just about to add a comment that, to my mind, this sounds kind of like an ad hominem attack.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:13
BINGO! I was just about to add a comment that, to my mind, this sounds kind of like an ad hominem attack.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:13
BINGO! I was just about to add a comment that, to my mind, this sounds kind of like an ad hominem attack.
– David Blomstrom
Nov 22 at 23:13
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
This statement is not logical in form. It is an imperative i.e. Do something! although in this case it is qualified.
An apparently similar statement in logic is: If X (is true) then Y (is true).
However "If you don't like it, move!" is different. The "!" gives this away. It is of the form used in (imperative) programming languages and algorithms: If X (is true) then do Y. Since it is not logical it can't be fallacious.
The negative response to a direct imperative is simply not to accede, for example, civil disobedience. In the case where the "command" is qualified you can justify refusing by saying that the pre-condition is not met, e.g. "But I do like it".
Other responses are to challenge specifics and context of the particular "command" and the particular pre-condition. E.g. that the utterer does not have the right to tell the addressee to do whatever is suggested, or that the pre-condition has no relation to the suggested action etc etc.
New contributor
If you have references with specific quotes that would strengthen the answer and give the reader places to go for more information. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
Nov 24 at 11:51
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
This statement is not logical in form. It is an imperative i.e. Do something! although in this case it is qualified.
An apparently similar statement in logic is: If X (is true) then Y (is true).
However "If you don't like it, move!" is different. The "!" gives this away. It is of the form used in (imperative) programming languages and algorithms: If X (is true) then do Y. Since it is not logical it can't be fallacious.
The negative response to a direct imperative is simply not to accede, for example, civil disobedience. In the case where the "command" is qualified you can justify refusing by saying that the pre-condition is not met, e.g. "But I do like it".
Other responses are to challenge specifics and context of the particular "command" and the particular pre-condition. E.g. that the utterer does not have the right to tell the addressee to do whatever is suggested, or that the pre-condition has no relation to the suggested action etc etc.
New contributor
If you have references with specific quotes that would strengthen the answer and give the reader places to go for more information. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
Nov 24 at 11:51
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
This statement is not logical in form. It is an imperative i.e. Do something! although in this case it is qualified.
An apparently similar statement in logic is: If X (is true) then Y (is true).
However "If you don't like it, move!" is different. The "!" gives this away. It is of the form used in (imperative) programming languages and algorithms: If X (is true) then do Y. Since it is not logical it can't be fallacious.
The negative response to a direct imperative is simply not to accede, for example, civil disobedience. In the case where the "command" is qualified you can justify refusing by saying that the pre-condition is not met, e.g. "But I do like it".
Other responses are to challenge specifics and context of the particular "command" and the particular pre-condition. E.g. that the utterer does not have the right to tell the addressee to do whatever is suggested, or that the pre-condition has no relation to the suggested action etc etc.
New contributor
This statement is not logical in form. It is an imperative i.e. Do something! although in this case it is qualified.
An apparently similar statement in logic is: If X (is true) then Y (is true).
However "If you don't like it, move!" is different. The "!" gives this away. It is of the form used in (imperative) programming languages and algorithms: If X (is true) then do Y. Since it is not logical it can't be fallacious.
The negative response to a direct imperative is simply not to accede, for example, civil disobedience. In the case where the "command" is qualified you can justify refusing by saying that the pre-condition is not met, e.g. "But I do like it".
Other responses are to challenge specifics and context of the particular "command" and the particular pre-condition. E.g. that the utterer does not have the right to tell the addressee to do whatever is suggested, or that the pre-condition has no relation to the suggested action etc etc.
New contributor
New contributor
answered Nov 24 at 4:32
Geoffrey Watson
411
411
New contributor
New contributor
If you have references with specific quotes that would strengthen the answer and give the reader places to go for more information. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
Nov 24 at 11:51
add a comment |
If you have references with specific quotes that would strengthen the answer and give the reader places to go for more information. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
Nov 24 at 11:51
If you have references with specific quotes that would strengthen the answer and give the reader places to go for more information. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
Nov 24 at 11:51
If you have references with specific quotes that would strengthen the answer and give the reader places to go for more information. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
Nov 24 at 11:51
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I would claim that it's not so much a logical fallacy. It is more of presentation of one option which one of the parties would prefer. Then you could maybe wiggle it a bit and make it look like a binary choice fallacy. "You can stay or you can leave, your choice!". Only two options are given, trying to implicate that whatever you choose, how stuff works will always remain the same. That you have no chance of changing it.
But in practice there are of course many other combinations.
- You can stay and try to strike some secret deal or
- You can stay and try and change the rules or
- You can stay and break the rules
But honestly for one person to try to change how stuff works, it just ain't worth it. It's way easier to try to move ourselves to find where we fit in than to change the whole world around us. And if enough people do that, then it could actually become an issue for whoever likes the current way of things.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I would claim that it's not so much a logical fallacy. It is more of presentation of one option which one of the parties would prefer. Then you could maybe wiggle it a bit and make it look like a binary choice fallacy. "You can stay or you can leave, your choice!". Only two options are given, trying to implicate that whatever you choose, how stuff works will always remain the same. That you have no chance of changing it.
But in practice there are of course many other combinations.
- You can stay and try to strike some secret deal or
- You can stay and try and change the rules or
- You can stay and break the rules
But honestly for one person to try to change how stuff works, it just ain't worth it. It's way easier to try to move ourselves to find where we fit in than to change the whole world around us. And if enough people do that, then it could actually become an issue for whoever likes the current way of things.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I would claim that it's not so much a logical fallacy. It is more of presentation of one option which one of the parties would prefer. Then you could maybe wiggle it a bit and make it look like a binary choice fallacy. "You can stay or you can leave, your choice!". Only two options are given, trying to implicate that whatever you choose, how stuff works will always remain the same. That you have no chance of changing it.
But in practice there are of course many other combinations.
- You can stay and try to strike some secret deal or
- You can stay and try and change the rules or
- You can stay and break the rules
But honestly for one person to try to change how stuff works, it just ain't worth it. It's way easier to try to move ourselves to find where we fit in than to change the whole world around us. And if enough people do that, then it could actually become an issue for whoever likes the current way of things.
I would claim that it's not so much a logical fallacy. It is more of presentation of one option which one of the parties would prefer. Then you could maybe wiggle it a bit and make it look like a binary choice fallacy. "You can stay or you can leave, your choice!". Only two options are given, trying to implicate that whatever you choose, how stuff works will always remain the same. That you have no chance of changing it.
But in practice there are of course many other combinations.
- You can stay and try to strike some secret deal or
- You can stay and try and change the rules or
- You can stay and break the rules
But honestly for one person to try to change how stuff works, it just ain't worth it. It's way easier to try to move ourselves to find where we fit in than to change the whole world around us. And if enough people do that, then it could actually become an issue for whoever likes the current way of things.
answered Nov 25 at 20:36
mathreadler
16717
16717
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say it depends on the context whether and where I'd see the fallacy.
The question puts it into a political context, i.e. in a context where - as long as both sides stay within what is legal/according to constitution - differing/opposite positions are allowed, and therfore not fallacious.
The rebuttal is rude - but whether it is unneccesary rude or the rudeness was earned by a similarly rudely expressed criticism we cannot judge from the question's scenario.
@Eff brings up the point that it can actually be a genuine question (still in political context) - If you don't like it, why don't you move?
I like this way of looking at the phrase as it opens the possibility to rescue the debate and get it back into a civil political debate: if I do consider moving I can explain that - and if not, it allows me to make clear that I don't think the (US) are bad overall: because x, y, z are too good to make moving away a serious consideration - IMHO just this particular point would be even better if done that new way. If I actually want to improve things (as opposed to: stir up things or "win" a debate), it's probably a far more convincing position to clearly acknowledge the points where I agree with my opponent and express my sincere appreciation for the country/society/community. And, of course, if the criticism did not express that there is in fact non-trivial agreement, the criticism can sound far more total than it is meant.While not being about the US, I know/knew people who being citizens of the same country which they critized a) some left (which was a crime), b) some stayed trying to change things - and in hindsight decided that was good even though they didn't move much, but a bit naive. Naive also because friends of them c) also decided to stay to try changing things - and were oppressed by their government to the point that they were thrown out of their country. I.e. if the critisism is a serious overall criticism with not just some important single point but comprises major parts of political and everyday life, then "why don't you move/leave?" is the question to ask. Seriously. And maybe moving is the thing to do.
Different scenario, not political - criticism of something we/this society cannot change. If someone tells me: "Your winters are just shit: no sun, wet fog and sooo cold." I may answer "if you don't like it, move!" and honestly admit that also "natives" of my region consider moving to nicer climates: so it can be a sincere question or advise and as such it is again not a logical (or even informal) fallacy.
Finally, if you don't like pi being 3, why don't you move to place where they use π = 4? Here we finally have constructed a fallacy: treating a mathematical fact as politically negotiable (category error).
As needed, replace π = 3 or 4 by any scientific theory/finding that is either true or false and that is subject to politics.
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say it depends on the context whether and where I'd see the fallacy.
The question puts it into a political context, i.e. in a context where - as long as both sides stay within what is legal/according to constitution - differing/opposite positions are allowed, and therfore not fallacious.
The rebuttal is rude - but whether it is unneccesary rude or the rudeness was earned by a similarly rudely expressed criticism we cannot judge from the question's scenario.
@Eff brings up the point that it can actually be a genuine question (still in political context) - If you don't like it, why don't you move?
I like this way of looking at the phrase as it opens the possibility to rescue the debate and get it back into a civil political debate: if I do consider moving I can explain that - and if not, it allows me to make clear that I don't think the (US) are bad overall: because x, y, z are too good to make moving away a serious consideration - IMHO just this particular point would be even better if done that new way. If I actually want to improve things (as opposed to: stir up things or "win" a debate), it's probably a far more convincing position to clearly acknowledge the points where I agree with my opponent and express my sincere appreciation for the country/society/community. And, of course, if the criticism did not express that there is in fact non-trivial agreement, the criticism can sound far more total than it is meant.While not being about the US, I know/knew people who being citizens of the same country which they critized a) some left (which was a crime), b) some stayed trying to change things - and in hindsight decided that was good even though they didn't move much, but a bit naive. Naive also because friends of them c) also decided to stay to try changing things - and were oppressed by their government to the point that they were thrown out of their country. I.e. if the critisism is a serious overall criticism with not just some important single point but comprises major parts of political and everyday life, then "why don't you move/leave?" is the question to ask. Seriously. And maybe moving is the thing to do.
Different scenario, not political - criticism of something we/this society cannot change. If someone tells me: "Your winters are just shit: no sun, wet fog and sooo cold." I may answer "if you don't like it, move!" and honestly admit that also "natives" of my region consider moving to nicer climates: so it can be a sincere question or advise and as such it is again not a logical (or even informal) fallacy.
Finally, if you don't like pi being 3, why don't you move to place where they use π = 4? Here we finally have constructed a fallacy: treating a mathematical fact as politically negotiable (category error).
As needed, replace π = 3 or 4 by any scientific theory/finding that is either true or false and that is subject to politics.
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say it depends on the context whether and where I'd see the fallacy.
The question puts it into a political context, i.e. in a context where - as long as both sides stay within what is legal/according to constitution - differing/opposite positions are allowed, and therfore not fallacious.
The rebuttal is rude - but whether it is unneccesary rude or the rudeness was earned by a similarly rudely expressed criticism we cannot judge from the question's scenario.
@Eff brings up the point that it can actually be a genuine question (still in political context) - If you don't like it, why don't you move?
I like this way of looking at the phrase as it opens the possibility to rescue the debate and get it back into a civil political debate: if I do consider moving I can explain that - and if not, it allows me to make clear that I don't think the (US) are bad overall: because x, y, z are too good to make moving away a serious consideration - IMHO just this particular point would be even better if done that new way. If I actually want to improve things (as opposed to: stir up things or "win" a debate), it's probably a far more convincing position to clearly acknowledge the points where I agree with my opponent and express my sincere appreciation for the country/society/community. And, of course, if the criticism did not express that there is in fact non-trivial agreement, the criticism can sound far more total than it is meant.While not being about the US, I know/knew people who being citizens of the same country which they critized a) some left (which was a crime), b) some stayed trying to change things - and in hindsight decided that was good even though they didn't move much, but a bit naive. Naive also because friends of them c) also decided to stay to try changing things - and were oppressed by their government to the point that they were thrown out of their country. I.e. if the critisism is a serious overall criticism with not just some important single point but comprises major parts of political and everyday life, then "why don't you move/leave?" is the question to ask. Seriously. And maybe moving is the thing to do.
Different scenario, not political - criticism of something we/this society cannot change. If someone tells me: "Your winters are just shit: no sun, wet fog and sooo cold." I may answer "if you don't like it, move!" and honestly admit that also "natives" of my region consider moving to nicer climates: so it can be a sincere question or advise and as such it is again not a logical (or even informal) fallacy.
Finally, if you don't like pi being 3, why don't you move to place where they use π = 4? Here we finally have constructed a fallacy: treating a mathematical fact as politically negotiable (category error).
As needed, replace π = 3 or 4 by any scientific theory/finding that is either true or false and that is subject to politics.
New contributor
I'd say it depends on the context whether and where I'd see the fallacy.
The question puts it into a political context, i.e. in a context where - as long as both sides stay within what is legal/according to constitution - differing/opposite positions are allowed, and therfore not fallacious.
The rebuttal is rude - but whether it is unneccesary rude or the rudeness was earned by a similarly rudely expressed criticism we cannot judge from the question's scenario.
@Eff brings up the point that it can actually be a genuine question (still in political context) - If you don't like it, why don't you move?
I like this way of looking at the phrase as it opens the possibility to rescue the debate and get it back into a civil political debate: if I do consider moving I can explain that - and if not, it allows me to make clear that I don't think the (US) are bad overall: because x, y, z are too good to make moving away a serious consideration - IMHO just this particular point would be even better if done that new way. If I actually want to improve things (as opposed to: stir up things or "win" a debate), it's probably a far more convincing position to clearly acknowledge the points where I agree with my opponent and express my sincere appreciation for the country/society/community. And, of course, if the criticism did not express that there is in fact non-trivial agreement, the criticism can sound far more total than it is meant.While not being about the US, I know/knew people who being citizens of the same country which they critized a) some left (which was a crime), b) some stayed trying to change things - and in hindsight decided that was good even though they didn't move much, but a bit naive. Naive also because friends of them c) also decided to stay to try changing things - and were oppressed by their government to the point that they were thrown out of their country. I.e. if the critisism is a serious overall criticism with not just some important single point but comprises major parts of political and everyday life, then "why don't you move/leave?" is the question to ask. Seriously. And maybe moving is the thing to do.
Different scenario, not political - criticism of something we/this society cannot change. If someone tells me: "Your winters are just shit: no sun, wet fog and sooo cold." I may answer "if you don't like it, move!" and honestly admit that also "natives" of my region consider moving to nicer climates: so it can be a sincere question or advise and as such it is again not a logical (or even informal) fallacy.
Finally, if you don't like pi being 3, why don't you move to place where they use π = 4? Here we finally have constructed a fallacy: treating a mathematical fact as politically negotiable (category error).
As needed, replace π = 3 or 4 by any scientific theory/finding that is either true or false and that is subject to politics.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 hours ago
cbeleites
1114
1114
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
protected by Philip Klöcking♦ Nov 24 at 11:50
Thank you for your interest in this question.
Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).
Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?
6
The problem with this is that (if we limit ourselves to our native country, if you have migrated as an adult it is a very different situation) you didn't pick the country you were born in. So if that country somehow violates your basic human rights (such as imprisoning gays for being homosexual) it is not you who are at fault but rather the laws and you are the victim of immoral laws. Forcing you to move when you just want to live your life not bothering anyone is like forcing the victim of bullying in school to move rather than the bully. Are you Swedish?
– d-b
Nov 22 at 10:47
5
Wikipedia: "A fallacy is the use of invalid or otherwise faulty reasoning, or "wrong moves" in the construction of an argument". What you suggest doesn't include anything invalid in the reasoning itself, but rather its consequences.
– Yechiam Weiss
Nov 22 at 17:14
15
I have to say that I don't think the statement is a logical fallacy, so much as an expression of the speaker's opinion. People who say this don't really mean that they think there are literally only two options ('like it' or 'leave') but that they think changing the way things are is a bad idea and they would prefer it didn't happen.
– DJClayworth
Nov 22 at 20:02
3
I came to Philosophy SE hoping for philosophy. It seems that many answers are political in nature. In particular they address the plight of immigrants to the US. If we want politics then I would cite Lindsay Shepherd, the teaching assistant at Wilfred Laurier University who was told effectively, "If you don't agree to conform to our culture here, you must leave." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Shepherd
– chasly from UK
Nov 25 at 19:08
9
This is the
Ergo Decedo
fallacy. I cannot answer the question because it is protected. Not fair! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedoErgo decedo, Latin for "therefore leave" or "then go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy,[1] denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself.
– Chloe
Nov 25 at 22:37