Does it really make sense to talk about the color of gluons?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).
That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.
This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.
Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.
Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!
quantum-chromodynamics gauge-invariance strong-force
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).
That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.
This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.
Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.
Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!
quantum-chromodynamics gauge-invariance strong-force
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).
That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.
This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.
Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.
Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!
quantum-chromodynamics gauge-invariance strong-force
It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).
That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.
This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.
Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.
Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!
quantum-chromodynamics gauge-invariance strong-force
quantum-chromodynamics gauge-invariance strong-force
edited 5 hours ago
asked 6 hours ago
Craig
534
534
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.
The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:
$$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$
Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.
Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
– Craig
5 hours ago
As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
– Craig
5 hours ago
1
@Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
– Alex Meiburg
5 hours ago
The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
– G. Smith
5 hours ago
I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
– G. Smith
4 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]
Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
– Craig
5 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.
The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:
$$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$
Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.
Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
– Craig
5 hours ago
As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
– Craig
5 hours ago
1
@Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
– Alex Meiburg
5 hours ago
The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
– G. Smith
5 hours ago
I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
– G. Smith
4 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.
The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:
$$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$
Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.
Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
– Craig
5 hours ago
As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
– Craig
5 hours ago
1
@Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
– Alex Meiburg
5 hours ago
The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
– G. Smith
5 hours ago
I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
– G. Smith
4 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.
The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:
$$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$
Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.
The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.
The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:
$$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$
Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
G. Smith
1,26828
1,26828
Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
– Craig
5 hours ago
As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
– Craig
5 hours ago
1
@Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
– Alex Meiburg
5 hours ago
The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
– G. Smith
5 hours ago
I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
– G. Smith
4 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
– Craig
5 hours ago
As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
– Craig
5 hours ago
1
@Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
– Alex Meiburg
5 hours ago
The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
– G. Smith
5 hours ago
I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
– G. Smith
4 hours ago
Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
– Craig
5 hours ago
Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
– Craig
5 hours ago
As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
– Craig
5 hours ago
As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
– Craig
5 hours ago
1
1
@Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
– Alex Meiburg
5 hours ago
@Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
– Alex Meiburg
5 hours ago
The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
– G. Smith
5 hours ago
The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
– G. Smith
5 hours ago
I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
– G. Smith
4 hours ago
I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
– G. Smith
4 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]
Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
– Craig
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]
Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
– Craig
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]
The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]
answered 6 hours ago
fs137
2,455815
2,455815
Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
– Craig
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
– Craig
5 hours ago
Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
– Craig
5 hours ago
Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
– Craig
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f440142%2fdoes-it-really-make-sense-to-talk-about-the-color-of-gluons%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password