Does it really make sense to talk about the color of gluons?

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It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).



That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.



This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.



Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.



Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!










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    up vote
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    It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).



    That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.



    This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.



    Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.



    Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!










    share|cite|improve this question

























      up vote
      3
      down vote

      favorite
      1









      up vote
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      down vote

      favorite
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      1





      It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).



      That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.



      This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.



      Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.



      Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!










      share|cite|improve this question















      It is my understanding that by enforcing SU(3) gauge invariance on our lagrangian of 3-colored quark fields, we are forced to accept the existence of 8 new massless vector fields, the gluons. The 8 here comes directly from the dimension of SU(3).



      That being said I often see discussions about the gluons in terms of linear combinations of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc.



      This simply cant be the nature of the gluons though can it? Because it seems to imply that the number of colors and the number of gluon fuelds are not independant, while they clearly are.



      Certainly gluons are not singlets in color space and so they must have color, but it doesnt make sense to me that this color of the gluons would be some mapping directly from quark color.



      Thanks to anyone with the insight and time to share it!







      quantum-chromodynamics gauge-invariance strong-force






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      edited 5 hours ago

























      asked 6 hours ago









      Craig

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          The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.



          The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:



          $$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$



          Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago










          • As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            @Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
            – Alex Meiburg
            5 hours ago










          • The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
            – G. Smith
            5 hours ago










          • I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
            – G. Smith
            4 hours ago


















          up vote
          2
          down vote













          The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
            – Craig
            5 hours ago










          Your Answer





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          2 Answers
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          The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.



          The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:



          $$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$



          Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago










          • As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            @Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
            – Alex Meiburg
            5 hours ago










          • The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
            – G. Smith
            5 hours ago










          • I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
            – G. Smith
            4 hours ago















          up vote
          4
          down vote













          The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.



          The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:



          $$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$



          Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago










          • As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            @Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
            – Alex Meiburg
            5 hours ago










          • The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
            – G. Smith
            5 hours ago










          • I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
            – G. Smith
            4 hours ago













          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.



          The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:



          $$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$



          Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          The quarks transform according to the fundamental representation $mathbf3$ of SU(3), and the antiquarks according to the conjugate representation $mathbfoverline 3$. The gluons transform according to the adjoint representation $mathbf8$.



          The adjoint representation is contained in the product of the fundamental representation and its conjugate:



          $$mathbf3otimes mathbfoverline 3 = mathbf8oplus mathbf1$$



          Therefore gluons are conventionally labeled using color-anticolor combinations, avoiding the color singlet combination $(roverliner+boverlineb+goverlineg)sqrt3$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 5 hours ago

























          answered 5 hours ago









          G. Smith

          1,26828




          1,26828











          • Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago










          • As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            @Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
            – Alex Meiburg
            5 hours ago










          • The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
            – G. Smith
            5 hours ago










          • I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
            – G. Smith
            4 hours ago

















          • Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago










          • As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
            – Craig
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            @Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
            – Alex Meiburg
            5 hours ago










          • The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
            – G. Smith
            5 hours ago










          • I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
            – G. Smith
            4 hours ago
















          Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
          – Craig
          5 hours ago




          Awesome do you have a any sources/papers/books I could find more about this?
          – Craig
          5 hours ago












          As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
          – Craig
          5 hours ago




          As well; in a universe where we had say, 4 or 5 colors and 8 gluons, how would this work?
          – Craig
          5 hours ago




          1




          1




          @Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
          – Alex Meiburg
          5 hours ago




          @Craig, are you familiar with representation theory? A big concept is that the same group can be "represented" with larger or smaller vector spaces. In this case, the quarks have the minimum number of vectors needed to realize SU(3) symmetry, and the gluons have (very loosely) that maximum number of vectors that can have the SU(3) symmetry, one for each dimension. If we had 4 colors, then we would instead want $4otimes bar 4 = 15oplus 1$, and we would have 15 gluon fields for the 4 colors.
          – Alex Meiburg
          5 hours ago












          The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
          – G. Smith
          5 hours ago




          The adjoint reprsentation of SU(n) has dimension $n^2-1$. So if you have 4 colors there need to be 15 gluons and if you have 5 colors there need to be 24 gluons.
          – G. Smith
          5 hours ago












          I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
          – G. Smith
          4 hours ago





          I’ll let others suggest the best references. But you need to clarify what you main interest is. The mathematics of representation theory? (For example, how do you figure out how an arbitrary product of irreducible representations decomposes into irreducible representations?) The physics of QCD, or the whole Standard Model? The reason why quantum field theory involves group representations? Etc.
          – G. Smith
          4 hours ago











          up vote
          2
          down vote













          The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
            – Craig
            5 hours ago














          up vote
          2
          down vote













          The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
            – Craig
            5 hours ago












          up vote
          2
          down vote










          up vote
          2
          down vote









          The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]






          share|cite|improve this answer












          The gluons are generators of the SU(3) gauge group; whatever notation is used to describe the fundamental representation can be extended to higher representations through their embedding in tensor products of the fundamental (and its dual.) [Also, by "sums" of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc., do you really mean products?]







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 6 hours ago









          fs137

          2,455815




          2,455815











          • Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
            – Craig
            5 hours ago
















          • Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
            – Craig
            5 hours ago















          Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
          – Craig
          5 hours ago




          Oops I mean linear combinations of products of $rbar r$, $bbar b$, etc
          – Craig
          5 hours ago

















           

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