Probability of satisfying a word in a compact group

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This question is inspired by Probability of commutation in a compact group, which asked whether $P(xyx^-1y^-1 = 1)$ could take values strictly between $0$ and $1$ on a compact connected group. That question turned out to have a rather easy answer, but one that was quite particular to the word $xyx^-1y^-1$.




Question: Let $w$ be an arbitrary word in $k$ letters, and let $G$ be a compact connected group. Let $x_1, dots, x_k$ be drawn uniformly from $G$. Can $P(w(x_1, dots, x_k)=1)$ be strictly between $0$ and $1$?




By the Peter--Weyl theorem we may assume that $G$ is a compact connected Lie group.



There is some low-hanging fruit, like $w = [[x,y],z]$, but that's still very specialized. Admittedly I am not even clear on the words $w = x^n$.










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  • Particularly in Lie groups, there's lots of other measure-theoretic and potential-theoretic notions of "smallness" that one could ask about. If it does have measure zero, what's its Hausdorff dimension? Is it a polar set? Et cetera.
    – Nate Eldredge
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    the solution space for a $k$ letters word will be a closed subvariety of $G^k$, and as such it will have either measure 0 or 1. Morover, if $G$ is not commutative then it contains a free group hence this subvariety will be proper, thus of 0 meaure.
    – Uri Bader
    1 hour ago











  • @UriBader Why does full dimension imply measure 1? I'm thinking of for example the solution space to $x^2=1$ in $O(2)$. Of course $O(2)$ is not connected, so it's not a counterexample.
    – Sean Eberhard
    1 hour ago










  • Sean, yes. This is indeed due to connectedness. I posted an answer, for clarity.
    – Uri Bader
    31 mins ago














up vote
6
down vote

favorite
2












This question is inspired by Probability of commutation in a compact group, which asked whether $P(xyx^-1y^-1 = 1)$ could take values strictly between $0$ and $1$ on a compact connected group. That question turned out to have a rather easy answer, but one that was quite particular to the word $xyx^-1y^-1$.




Question: Let $w$ be an arbitrary word in $k$ letters, and let $G$ be a compact connected group. Let $x_1, dots, x_k$ be drawn uniformly from $G$. Can $P(w(x_1, dots, x_k)=1)$ be strictly between $0$ and $1$?




By the Peter--Weyl theorem we may assume that $G$ is a compact connected Lie group.



There is some low-hanging fruit, like $w = [[x,y],z]$, but that's still very specialized. Admittedly I am not even clear on the words $w = x^n$.










share|cite|improve this question





















  • Particularly in Lie groups, there's lots of other measure-theoretic and potential-theoretic notions of "smallness" that one could ask about. If it does have measure zero, what's its Hausdorff dimension? Is it a polar set? Et cetera.
    – Nate Eldredge
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    the solution space for a $k$ letters word will be a closed subvariety of $G^k$, and as such it will have either measure 0 or 1. Morover, if $G$ is not commutative then it contains a free group hence this subvariety will be proper, thus of 0 meaure.
    – Uri Bader
    1 hour ago











  • @UriBader Why does full dimension imply measure 1? I'm thinking of for example the solution space to $x^2=1$ in $O(2)$. Of course $O(2)$ is not connected, so it's not a counterexample.
    – Sean Eberhard
    1 hour ago










  • Sean, yes. This is indeed due to connectedness. I posted an answer, for clarity.
    – Uri Bader
    31 mins ago












up vote
6
down vote

favorite
2









up vote
6
down vote

favorite
2






2





This question is inspired by Probability of commutation in a compact group, which asked whether $P(xyx^-1y^-1 = 1)$ could take values strictly between $0$ and $1$ on a compact connected group. That question turned out to have a rather easy answer, but one that was quite particular to the word $xyx^-1y^-1$.




Question: Let $w$ be an arbitrary word in $k$ letters, and let $G$ be a compact connected group. Let $x_1, dots, x_k$ be drawn uniformly from $G$. Can $P(w(x_1, dots, x_k)=1)$ be strictly between $0$ and $1$?




By the Peter--Weyl theorem we may assume that $G$ is a compact connected Lie group.



There is some low-hanging fruit, like $w = [[x,y],z]$, but that's still very specialized. Admittedly I am not even clear on the words $w = x^n$.










share|cite|improve this question













This question is inspired by Probability of commutation in a compact group, which asked whether $P(xyx^-1y^-1 = 1)$ could take values strictly between $0$ and $1$ on a compact connected group. That question turned out to have a rather easy answer, but one that was quite particular to the word $xyx^-1y^-1$.




Question: Let $w$ be an arbitrary word in $k$ letters, and let $G$ be a compact connected group. Let $x_1, dots, x_k$ be drawn uniformly from $G$. Can $P(w(x_1, dots, x_k)=1)$ be strictly between $0$ and $1$?




By the Peter--Weyl theorem we may assume that $G$ is a compact connected Lie group.



There is some low-hanging fruit, like $w = [[x,y],z]$, but that's still very specialized. Admittedly I am not even clear on the words $w = x^n$.







gr.group-theory lie-groups






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share|cite|improve this question











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share|cite|improve this question










asked 2 hours ago









Sean Eberhard

3,3551327




3,3551327











  • Particularly in Lie groups, there's lots of other measure-theoretic and potential-theoretic notions of "smallness" that one could ask about. If it does have measure zero, what's its Hausdorff dimension? Is it a polar set? Et cetera.
    – Nate Eldredge
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    the solution space for a $k$ letters word will be a closed subvariety of $G^k$, and as such it will have either measure 0 or 1. Morover, if $G$ is not commutative then it contains a free group hence this subvariety will be proper, thus of 0 meaure.
    – Uri Bader
    1 hour ago











  • @UriBader Why does full dimension imply measure 1? I'm thinking of for example the solution space to $x^2=1$ in $O(2)$. Of course $O(2)$ is not connected, so it's not a counterexample.
    – Sean Eberhard
    1 hour ago










  • Sean, yes. This is indeed due to connectedness. I posted an answer, for clarity.
    – Uri Bader
    31 mins ago
















  • Particularly in Lie groups, there's lots of other measure-theoretic and potential-theoretic notions of "smallness" that one could ask about. If it does have measure zero, what's its Hausdorff dimension? Is it a polar set? Et cetera.
    – Nate Eldredge
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    the solution space for a $k$ letters word will be a closed subvariety of $G^k$, and as such it will have either measure 0 or 1. Morover, if $G$ is not commutative then it contains a free group hence this subvariety will be proper, thus of 0 meaure.
    – Uri Bader
    1 hour ago











  • @UriBader Why does full dimension imply measure 1? I'm thinking of for example the solution space to $x^2=1$ in $O(2)$. Of course $O(2)$ is not connected, so it's not a counterexample.
    – Sean Eberhard
    1 hour ago










  • Sean, yes. This is indeed due to connectedness. I posted an answer, for clarity.
    – Uri Bader
    31 mins ago















Particularly in Lie groups, there's lots of other measure-theoretic and potential-theoretic notions of "smallness" that one could ask about. If it does have measure zero, what's its Hausdorff dimension? Is it a polar set? Et cetera.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago




Particularly in Lie groups, there's lots of other measure-theoretic and potential-theoretic notions of "smallness" that one could ask about. If it does have measure zero, what's its Hausdorff dimension? Is it a polar set? Et cetera.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago




2




2




the solution space for a $k$ letters word will be a closed subvariety of $G^k$, and as such it will have either measure 0 or 1. Morover, if $G$ is not commutative then it contains a free group hence this subvariety will be proper, thus of 0 meaure.
– Uri Bader
1 hour ago





the solution space for a $k$ letters word will be a closed subvariety of $G^k$, and as such it will have either measure 0 or 1. Morover, if $G$ is not commutative then it contains a free group hence this subvariety will be proper, thus of 0 meaure.
– Uri Bader
1 hour ago













@UriBader Why does full dimension imply measure 1? I'm thinking of for example the solution space to $x^2=1$ in $O(2)$. Of course $O(2)$ is not connected, so it's not a counterexample.
– Sean Eberhard
1 hour ago




@UriBader Why does full dimension imply measure 1? I'm thinking of for example the solution space to $x^2=1$ in $O(2)$. Of course $O(2)$ is not connected, so it's not a counterexample.
– Sean Eberhard
1 hour ago












Sean, yes. This is indeed due to connectedness. I posted an answer, for clarity.
– Uri Bader
31 mins ago




Sean, yes. This is indeed due to connectedness. I posted an answer, for clarity.
– Uri Bader
31 mins ago










1 Answer
1






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up vote
4
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The negative answer follows easily from a very useful fact that should be better known, so I am writing it explicitly.



Fact (Tannaka, Chevalley):
Every (connected) compact Lie group is isomorphic as a topological group to the group of real points of a (connected) reductive affine real algebraic group.
Moreover, the Haar measure on such a group is given by a volume form on the corrseponding variety.



We thus may view (for a given word $w$ in the rank $k$ free group $F_k$) the word map $w:G^kto G$ as a morphism of real varieties and its solution space (the fiber over the identity element) as a the real points of a closed real subvariety. Since $G$ is connected, this subvariety will be either $G^k$ itself, or a lower dimensional one. Its measure, accordingly, will be either 0 or 1.




We could be more precise:



  • If $G$ is trivial then the measure is 1.


  • If $G$ is non-trivial abelian then it is isomprphic to a torus $textSO(2)^n$, and it is easy to see that the measure is 1 iff $w$ is in the commutator group of $F_k$, otherwise the measure is 0.


  • If $G$ is non-abelian then it contains a free group on $k$ generators (by Tits alternative, if you want to hit it with a hammer), thus the corresponding subvariety is proper and its measure is necessarily 0.






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    1 Answer
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    active

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    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

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    up vote
    4
    down vote













    The negative answer follows easily from a very useful fact that should be better known, so I am writing it explicitly.



    Fact (Tannaka, Chevalley):
    Every (connected) compact Lie group is isomorphic as a topological group to the group of real points of a (connected) reductive affine real algebraic group.
    Moreover, the Haar measure on such a group is given by a volume form on the corrseponding variety.



    We thus may view (for a given word $w$ in the rank $k$ free group $F_k$) the word map $w:G^kto G$ as a morphism of real varieties and its solution space (the fiber over the identity element) as a the real points of a closed real subvariety. Since $G$ is connected, this subvariety will be either $G^k$ itself, or a lower dimensional one. Its measure, accordingly, will be either 0 or 1.




    We could be more precise:



    • If $G$ is trivial then the measure is 1.


    • If $G$ is non-trivial abelian then it is isomprphic to a torus $textSO(2)^n$, and it is easy to see that the measure is 1 iff $w$ is in the commutator group of $F_k$, otherwise the measure is 0.


    • If $G$ is non-abelian then it contains a free group on $k$ generators (by Tits alternative, if you want to hit it with a hammer), thus the corresponding subvariety is proper and its measure is necessarily 0.






    share|cite|improve this answer


























      up vote
      4
      down vote













      The negative answer follows easily from a very useful fact that should be better known, so I am writing it explicitly.



      Fact (Tannaka, Chevalley):
      Every (connected) compact Lie group is isomorphic as a topological group to the group of real points of a (connected) reductive affine real algebraic group.
      Moreover, the Haar measure on such a group is given by a volume form on the corrseponding variety.



      We thus may view (for a given word $w$ in the rank $k$ free group $F_k$) the word map $w:G^kto G$ as a morphism of real varieties and its solution space (the fiber over the identity element) as a the real points of a closed real subvariety. Since $G$ is connected, this subvariety will be either $G^k$ itself, or a lower dimensional one. Its measure, accordingly, will be either 0 or 1.




      We could be more precise:



      • If $G$ is trivial then the measure is 1.


      • If $G$ is non-trivial abelian then it is isomprphic to a torus $textSO(2)^n$, and it is easy to see that the measure is 1 iff $w$ is in the commutator group of $F_k$, otherwise the measure is 0.


      • If $G$ is non-abelian then it contains a free group on $k$ generators (by Tits alternative, if you want to hit it with a hammer), thus the corresponding subvariety is proper and its measure is necessarily 0.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        up vote
        4
        down vote










        up vote
        4
        down vote









        The negative answer follows easily from a very useful fact that should be better known, so I am writing it explicitly.



        Fact (Tannaka, Chevalley):
        Every (connected) compact Lie group is isomorphic as a topological group to the group of real points of a (connected) reductive affine real algebraic group.
        Moreover, the Haar measure on such a group is given by a volume form on the corrseponding variety.



        We thus may view (for a given word $w$ in the rank $k$ free group $F_k$) the word map $w:G^kto G$ as a morphism of real varieties and its solution space (the fiber over the identity element) as a the real points of a closed real subvariety. Since $G$ is connected, this subvariety will be either $G^k$ itself, or a lower dimensional one. Its measure, accordingly, will be either 0 or 1.




        We could be more precise:



        • If $G$ is trivial then the measure is 1.


        • If $G$ is non-trivial abelian then it is isomprphic to a torus $textSO(2)^n$, and it is easy to see that the measure is 1 iff $w$ is in the commutator group of $F_k$, otherwise the measure is 0.


        • If $G$ is non-abelian then it contains a free group on $k$ generators (by Tits alternative, if you want to hit it with a hammer), thus the corresponding subvariety is proper and its measure is necessarily 0.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        The negative answer follows easily from a very useful fact that should be better known, so I am writing it explicitly.



        Fact (Tannaka, Chevalley):
        Every (connected) compact Lie group is isomorphic as a topological group to the group of real points of a (connected) reductive affine real algebraic group.
        Moreover, the Haar measure on such a group is given by a volume form on the corrseponding variety.



        We thus may view (for a given word $w$ in the rank $k$ free group $F_k$) the word map $w:G^kto G$ as a morphism of real varieties and its solution space (the fiber over the identity element) as a the real points of a closed real subvariety. Since $G$ is connected, this subvariety will be either $G^k$ itself, or a lower dimensional one. Its measure, accordingly, will be either 0 or 1.




        We could be more precise:



        • If $G$ is trivial then the measure is 1.


        • If $G$ is non-trivial abelian then it is isomprphic to a torus $textSO(2)^n$, and it is easy to see that the measure is 1 iff $w$ is in the commutator group of $F_k$, otherwise the measure is 0.


        • If $G$ is non-abelian then it contains a free group on $k$ generators (by Tits alternative, if you want to hit it with a hammer), thus the corresponding subvariety is proper and its measure is necessarily 0.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 15 mins ago

























        answered 33 mins ago









        Uri Bader

        5,99911531




        5,99911531



























             

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