Why is this binary file transferred over “ssh -t” being changed?

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I am trying to copy files over SSH, but cannot use scp due to not knowing the exact filename that I need. Although small binary files and text files transfer fine, large binary files get altered. Here is the file on the server:



remote$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 244970907 Aug 24 11:11 foo.gz
remote$ md5sum foo.gz
9b5a44dad9d129bab52cbc6d806e7fda foo.gz


Here is the file after I've moved it over:



local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/foo.gz' > latest.gz

real 1m52.098s
user 0m2.608s
sys 0m4.370s
local$ md5sum latest.gz
76fae9d6a4711bad1560092b539d034b latest.gz

local$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 dotancohen dotancohen 245849912 Aug 24 18:26 latest.gz


Note that the downloaded file is bigger than the one on the server! However, if I do the same with a very small file, then everything works as expected:



remote$ echo "Hello" | gzip -c > hello.txt.gz
remote$ md5sum hello.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hello.txt.gz

local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/hello.txt.gz' > hi.txt.gz


real 0m3.041s
user 0m0.013s
sys 0m0.005s



local$ md5sum hi.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hi.txt.gz


Both file sizes are 26 bytes in this case.



Why might small files transfer fine, but large files get some bytes added to them?










share|improve this question



















  • 10




    It's the -t option, which breaks the transfer. Don't use -t or -T, unless you need them for a very specific reason. The default works in the vast majority of cases, so those options are very rarely needed.
    – kasperd
    Aug 24 '14 at 21:15






  • 3




    Never thought I'd say this in this century, but you may want to try uuencode and uudecode if ssh -t cat is the only way to transfer files.
    – Mark Plotnick
    Aug 25 '14 at 2:49






  • 1




    @MarkPlotnick modern version of uuencode/uudecode are now named base64/base64 -d
    – Archemar
    Aug 6 '15 at 8:55














up vote
28
down vote

favorite
9












I am trying to copy files over SSH, but cannot use scp due to not knowing the exact filename that I need. Although small binary files and text files transfer fine, large binary files get altered. Here is the file on the server:



remote$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 244970907 Aug 24 11:11 foo.gz
remote$ md5sum foo.gz
9b5a44dad9d129bab52cbc6d806e7fda foo.gz


Here is the file after I've moved it over:



local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/foo.gz' > latest.gz

real 1m52.098s
user 0m2.608s
sys 0m4.370s
local$ md5sum latest.gz
76fae9d6a4711bad1560092b539d034b latest.gz

local$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 dotancohen dotancohen 245849912 Aug 24 18:26 latest.gz


Note that the downloaded file is bigger than the one on the server! However, if I do the same with a very small file, then everything works as expected:



remote$ echo "Hello" | gzip -c > hello.txt.gz
remote$ md5sum hello.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hello.txt.gz

local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/hello.txt.gz' > hi.txt.gz


real 0m3.041s
user 0m0.013s
sys 0m0.005s



local$ md5sum hi.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hi.txt.gz


Both file sizes are 26 bytes in this case.



Why might small files transfer fine, but large files get some bytes added to them?










share|improve this question



















  • 10




    It's the -t option, which breaks the transfer. Don't use -t or -T, unless you need them for a very specific reason. The default works in the vast majority of cases, so those options are very rarely needed.
    – kasperd
    Aug 24 '14 at 21:15






  • 3




    Never thought I'd say this in this century, but you may want to try uuencode and uudecode if ssh -t cat is the only way to transfer files.
    – Mark Plotnick
    Aug 25 '14 at 2:49






  • 1




    @MarkPlotnick modern version of uuencode/uudecode are now named base64/base64 -d
    – Archemar
    Aug 6 '15 at 8:55












up vote
28
down vote

favorite
9









up vote
28
down vote

favorite
9






9





I am trying to copy files over SSH, but cannot use scp due to not knowing the exact filename that I need. Although small binary files and text files transfer fine, large binary files get altered. Here is the file on the server:



remote$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 244970907 Aug 24 11:11 foo.gz
remote$ md5sum foo.gz
9b5a44dad9d129bab52cbc6d806e7fda foo.gz


Here is the file after I've moved it over:



local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/foo.gz' > latest.gz

real 1m52.098s
user 0m2.608s
sys 0m4.370s
local$ md5sum latest.gz
76fae9d6a4711bad1560092b539d034b latest.gz

local$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 dotancohen dotancohen 245849912 Aug 24 18:26 latest.gz


Note that the downloaded file is bigger than the one on the server! However, if I do the same with a very small file, then everything works as expected:



remote$ echo "Hello" | gzip -c > hello.txt.gz
remote$ md5sum hello.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hello.txt.gz

local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/hello.txt.gz' > hi.txt.gz


real 0m3.041s
user 0m0.013s
sys 0m0.005s



local$ md5sum hi.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hi.txt.gz


Both file sizes are 26 bytes in this case.



Why might small files transfer fine, but large files get some bytes added to them?










share|improve this question















I am trying to copy files over SSH, but cannot use scp due to not knowing the exact filename that I need. Although small binary files and text files transfer fine, large binary files get altered. Here is the file on the server:



remote$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 244970907 Aug 24 11:11 foo.gz
remote$ md5sum foo.gz
9b5a44dad9d129bab52cbc6d806e7fda foo.gz


Here is the file after I've moved it over:



local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/foo.gz' > latest.gz

real 1m52.098s
user 0m2.608s
sys 0m4.370s
local$ md5sum latest.gz
76fae9d6a4711bad1560092b539d034b latest.gz

local$ ls -la
-rw-rw-r-- 1 dotancohen dotancohen 245849912 Aug 24 18:26 latest.gz


Note that the downloaded file is bigger than the one on the server! However, if I do the same with a very small file, then everything works as expected:



remote$ echo "Hello" | gzip -c > hello.txt.gz
remote$ md5sum hello.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hello.txt.gz

local$ time ssh me@server.com -t 'cat /path/to/hello.txt.gz' > hi.txt.gz


real 0m3.041s
user 0m0.013s
sys 0m0.005s



local$ md5sum hi.txt.gz
08bf5080733d46a47d339520176b9211 hi.txt.gz


Both file sizes are 26 bytes in this case.



Why might small files transfer fine, but large files get some bytes added to them?







ssh file-copy






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Aug 26 at 14:40









Jeff Schaller

32.7k849110




32.7k849110










asked Aug 24 '14 at 15:38









dotancohen

5,919165493




5,919165493







  • 10




    It's the -t option, which breaks the transfer. Don't use -t or -T, unless you need them for a very specific reason. The default works in the vast majority of cases, so those options are very rarely needed.
    – kasperd
    Aug 24 '14 at 21:15






  • 3




    Never thought I'd say this in this century, but you may want to try uuencode and uudecode if ssh -t cat is the only way to transfer files.
    – Mark Plotnick
    Aug 25 '14 at 2:49






  • 1




    @MarkPlotnick modern version of uuencode/uudecode are now named base64/base64 -d
    – Archemar
    Aug 6 '15 at 8:55












  • 10




    It's the -t option, which breaks the transfer. Don't use -t or -T, unless you need them for a very specific reason. The default works in the vast majority of cases, so those options are very rarely needed.
    – kasperd
    Aug 24 '14 at 21:15






  • 3




    Never thought I'd say this in this century, but you may want to try uuencode and uudecode if ssh -t cat is the only way to transfer files.
    – Mark Plotnick
    Aug 25 '14 at 2:49






  • 1




    @MarkPlotnick modern version of uuencode/uudecode are now named base64/base64 -d
    – Archemar
    Aug 6 '15 at 8:55







10




10




It's the -t option, which breaks the transfer. Don't use -t or -T, unless you need them for a very specific reason. The default works in the vast majority of cases, so those options are very rarely needed.
– kasperd
Aug 24 '14 at 21:15




It's the -t option, which breaks the transfer. Don't use -t or -T, unless you need them for a very specific reason. The default works in the vast majority of cases, so those options are very rarely needed.
– kasperd
Aug 24 '14 at 21:15




3




3




Never thought I'd say this in this century, but you may want to try uuencode and uudecode if ssh -t cat is the only way to transfer files.
– Mark Plotnick
Aug 25 '14 at 2:49




Never thought I'd say this in this century, but you may want to try uuencode and uudecode if ssh -t cat is the only way to transfer files.
– Mark Plotnick
Aug 25 '14 at 2:49




1




1




@MarkPlotnick modern version of uuencode/uudecode are now named base64/base64 -d
– Archemar
Aug 6 '15 at 8:55




@MarkPlotnick modern version of uuencode/uudecode are now named base64/base64 -d
– Archemar
Aug 6 '15 at 8:55










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
57
down vote



accepted










TL;DR



Don't use -t. -t involves a pseudo-terminal on the remote host and should only be used to run visual applications from a terminal.



Explanation



The linefeed character (also known as newline or n) is the one that when sent to a terminal tells the terminal to move its cursor down.



Yet, when you run seq 3 in a terminal, that is where seq writes 1n2n3n to something like /dev/pts/0, you don't see:



1
2
3


but



1
2
3


Why is that?



Actually, when seq 3 (or ssh host seq 3 for that matter) writes 1n2n3n, the terminal sees 1rn2rn3rn. That is, the line-feeds have been translated to carriage-return (upon which terminals move their cursor back to the left of the screen) and line-feed.



That is done by the terminal device driver. More exactly, by the line-discipline of the terminal (or pseudo-terminal) device, a software module that resides in the kernel.



You can control the behaviour of that line discipline with the stty command. The translation of LF -> CRLF is turned on with



stty onlcr


(which is generally enabled by default). You can turn it off with:



stty -onlcr


Or you can turn all output processing off with:



stty -opost


If you do that and run seq 3, you'll then see:



$ stty -onlcr; seq 3
1
2
3


as expected.



Now, when you do:



seq 3 > some-file


seq is no longer writing to a terminal, it's writing into a file, there's no translation being done. So some-file does contain 1n2n3n. The translation is only done when writing to a terminal device. And it's only done for display.



similarly, when you do:



ssh host seq 3


ssh is writing 1n2n3n regardless of what ssh's output goes to.



What actually happens is that the seq 3 command is run on host with its stdout redirected to a pipe. The ssh server on host reads the other end of the pipe and send it over the encrypted channel to your ssh client and the ssh client writes it onto its stdout, in your case a pseudo-terminal device, where LFs are translated to CRLF for display.



Many interactive applications behave differently when their stdout is not a terminal. For instance, if you run:



ssh host vi


vi doesn't like it, it doesn't like its output going to a pipe. It thinks it's not talking to a device that is able to understand cursor positioning escape sequences for instance.



So ssh has the -t option for that. With that option, the ssh server on host creates a pseudo-terminal device and makes that the stdout (and stdin, and stderr) of vi. What vi writes on that terminal device goes through that remote pseudo-terminal line discipline and is read by the ssh server and sent over the encrypted channel to the ssh client. It's the same as before except that instead of using a pipe, the ssh server uses a pseudo-terminal.



The other difference is that on the client side, the ssh client sets the terminal in raw mode. That means that no translation is done there (opost is disabled and also other input-side behaviours). For instance, when you type Ctrl-C, instead of interrupting ssh, that ^C character is sent to the remote side, where the line discipline of the remote pseudo-terminal sends the interrupt to the remote command.



When you do:



ssh -t host seq 3


seq 3 writes 1n2n3n to its stdout, which is a pseudo-terminal device. Because of onlcr, that gets translated on host to 1rn2rn3rn and sent to you over the encrypted channel. On your side there is no translation (onlcr disabled), so 1rn2rn3rn is displayed untouched (because of the raw mode) and correctly on the screen of your terminal emulator.



Now, if you do:



ssh -t host seq 3 > some-file


There's no difference from above. ssh will write the same thing: 1rn2rn3rn, but this time into some-file.



So basically all the LF in the output of seq have been translated to CRLF into some-file.



It's the same if you do:



ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


All the LF characters (0x0a bytes) are being translated into CRLF (0x0d 0x0a).



That's probably the reason for the corruption in your file. In the case of the second smaller file, it just so happens that the file doesn't contain 0x0a bytes, so there is no corruption.



Note that you could get different types of corruption with different tty settings. Another potential type of corruption associated with -t is if your startup files on host (~/.bashrc, ~/.ssh/rc...) write things to their stderr, because with -t the stdout and stderr of the remote shell end up being merged into ssh's stdout (they both go to the pseudo-terminal device).



You don't want the remote cat to output to a terminal device there.



You want:



ssh host cat remote-file > local-file


You could do:



ssh -t host 'stty -opost; cat remote-file` > local-file


That would work (except in the writing to stderr corruption case discussed above), but even that would be sub-optimal as you'd have that unnecessary pseudo-terminal layer running on host.




Some more fun:



$ ssh localhost echo | od -tx1
0000000 0a
0000001


OK.



$ ssh -t localhost echo | od -tx1
0000000 0d 0a
0000002


LF translated to CRLF



$ ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
0000000 0a
0000001


OK again.



$ ssh -t localhost 'stty olcuc; echo x'
X


That's another form of output post-processing that can be done by the terminal line discipline.



$ echo x | ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
Pseudo-terminal will not be allocated because stdin is not a terminal.
stty: standard input: Inappropriate ioctl for device
0000000 0a
0000001


ssh refuses to tell the server to use a pseudo-terminal when its own input is not a terminal. You can force it with -tt though:



$ echo x | ssh -tt localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
0000000 x r n n
0000004


The line discipline does a lot more on the input side.



Here, echo doesn't read its input nor was asked to output that xrnn so where does that come from? That's the local echo of the remote pseudo-terminal (stty echo). The ssh server is feeding the xn it read from the client to the master side of the remote pseudo-terminal. And the line discipline of that echoes it back (before stty opost is run which is why we see a CRLF and not LF). That's independent from whether the remote application reads anything from stdin or not.



$ (sleep 1; printf '3') | ssh -tt localhost 'trap "echo ouch" INT; sleep 2'
^Couch


The 0x3 character is echoed back as ^C (^ and C) because of stty echoctl and the shell and sleep receive a SIGINT because stty isig.



So while:



ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


is bad enough, but



ssh -tt host 'cat > remote-file' < local-file


to transfer files the other way across is a lot worse. You'll get some CR -> LF translation, but also problems with all the special characters (^C, ^Z, ^D, ^?, ^S...) and also the remote cat will not see eof when the end of local-file is reached, only when ^D is sent after a r, n or another ^D like when doing cat > file in your terminal.






share|improve this answer





























    up vote
    5
    down vote













    When using that method to copy the file the files appear to be different.



    Remote server



    ls -l | grep vim_cfg
    -rw-rw-r--. 1 slm slm 9783257 Aug 5 16:51 vim_cfg.tgz


    Local server



    Running your ssh ... cat command:



    $ ssh dufresne -t 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz


    Results in this file on the local server:



    $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz 
    -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9820481 Aug 24 12:13 vim_cfg.tgz


    Investigating why?



    Investigating the resulting file on the local side shows that it's been corrupted. If you take the -t switch out of your ssh command then it works as expected.



    $ ssh dufresne 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz

    $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz
    -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9783257 Aug 24 12:17 vim_cfg.tgz


    Checksums now work too:



    # remote server
    $ ssh dufresne "md5sum ~/vim_cfg.tgz"
    9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 /home/slm/vim_cfg.tgz

    # local server
    $ md5sum vim_cfg.tgz
    9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 vim_cfg.tgz





    share|improve this answer






















    • Thank you Sim. Though in fact you were the first to post the correct answer, I did select Stéphane for the chosen answer due to the depth of his explanation. Not to worry, you've got a long post history that I am learning from, and of course I upvote those posts that I learn from. Thank you.
      – dotancohen
      Aug 25 '14 at 8:20










    • @dotancohen - no worries, you accept which ever A's you feel are the ones that help you as the OP the most 8-). His abilities to explain why things happens is unrivaled, except by Gilles.
      – slm♦
      Aug 25 '14 at 12:28











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    2 Answers
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    active

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    up vote
    57
    down vote



    accepted










    TL;DR



    Don't use -t. -t involves a pseudo-terminal on the remote host and should only be used to run visual applications from a terminal.



    Explanation



    The linefeed character (also known as newline or n) is the one that when sent to a terminal tells the terminal to move its cursor down.



    Yet, when you run seq 3 in a terminal, that is where seq writes 1n2n3n to something like /dev/pts/0, you don't see:



    1
    2
    3


    but



    1
    2
    3


    Why is that?



    Actually, when seq 3 (or ssh host seq 3 for that matter) writes 1n2n3n, the terminal sees 1rn2rn3rn. That is, the line-feeds have been translated to carriage-return (upon which terminals move their cursor back to the left of the screen) and line-feed.



    That is done by the terminal device driver. More exactly, by the line-discipline of the terminal (or pseudo-terminal) device, a software module that resides in the kernel.



    You can control the behaviour of that line discipline with the stty command. The translation of LF -> CRLF is turned on with



    stty onlcr


    (which is generally enabled by default). You can turn it off with:



    stty -onlcr


    Or you can turn all output processing off with:



    stty -opost


    If you do that and run seq 3, you'll then see:



    $ stty -onlcr; seq 3
    1
    2
    3


    as expected.



    Now, when you do:



    seq 3 > some-file


    seq is no longer writing to a terminal, it's writing into a file, there's no translation being done. So some-file does contain 1n2n3n. The translation is only done when writing to a terminal device. And it's only done for display.



    similarly, when you do:



    ssh host seq 3


    ssh is writing 1n2n3n regardless of what ssh's output goes to.



    What actually happens is that the seq 3 command is run on host with its stdout redirected to a pipe. The ssh server on host reads the other end of the pipe and send it over the encrypted channel to your ssh client and the ssh client writes it onto its stdout, in your case a pseudo-terminal device, where LFs are translated to CRLF for display.



    Many interactive applications behave differently when their stdout is not a terminal. For instance, if you run:



    ssh host vi


    vi doesn't like it, it doesn't like its output going to a pipe. It thinks it's not talking to a device that is able to understand cursor positioning escape sequences for instance.



    So ssh has the -t option for that. With that option, the ssh server on host creates a pseudo-terminal device and makes that the stdout (and stdin, and stderr) of vi. What vi writes on that terminal device goes through that remote pseudo-terminal line discipline and is read by the ssh server and sent over the encrypted channel to the ssh client. It's the same as before except that instead of using a pipe, the ssh server uses a pseudo-terminal.



    The other difference is that on the client side, the ssh client sets the terminal in raw mode. That means that no translation is done there (opost is disabled and also other input-side behaviours). For instance, when you type Ctrl-C, instead of interrupting ssh, that ^C character is sent to the remote side, where the line discipline of the remote pseudo-terminal sends the interrupt to the remote command.



    When you do:



    ssh -t host seq 3


    seq 3 writes 1n2n3n to its stdout, which is a pseudo-terminal device. Because of onlcr, that gets translated on host to 1rn2rn3rn and sent to you over the encrypted channel. On your side there is no translation (onlcr disabled), so 1rn2rn3rn is displayed untouched (because of the raw mode) and correctly on the screen of your terminal emulator.



    Now, if you do:



    ssh -t host seq 3 > some-file


    There's no difference from above. ssh will write the same thing: 1rn2rn3rn, but this time into some-file.



    So basically all the LF in the output of seq have been translated to CRLF into some-file.



    It's the same if you do:



    ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


    All the LF characters (0x0a bytes) are being translated into CRLF (0x0d 0x0a).



    That's probably the reason for the corruption in your file. In the case of the second smaller file, it just so happens that the file doesn't contain 0x0a bytes, so there is no corruption.



    Note that you could get different types of corruption with different tty settings. Another potential type of corruption associated with -t is if your startup files on host (~/.bashrc, ~/.ssh/rc...) write things to their stderr, because with -t the stdout and stderr of the remote shell end up being merged into ssh's stdout (they both go to the pseudo-terminal device).



    You don't want the remote cat to output to a terminal device there.



    You want:



    ssh host cat remote-file > local-file


    You could do:



    ssh -t host 'stty -opost; cat remote-file` > local-file


    That would work (except in the writing to stderr corruption case discussed above), but even that would be sub-optimal as you'd have that unnecessary pseudo-terminal layer running on host.




    Some more fun:



    $ ssh localhost echo | od -tx1
    0000000 0a
    0000001


    OK.



    $ ssh -t localhost echo | od -tx1
    0000000 0d 0a
    0000002


    LF translated to CRLF



    $ ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
    0000000 0a
    0000001


    OK again.



    $ ssh -t localhost 'stty olcuc; echo x'
    X


    That's another form of output post-processing that can be done by the terminal line discipline.



    $ echo x | ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
    Pseudo-terminal will not be allocated because stdin is not a terminal.
    stty: standard input: Inappropriate ioctl for device
    0000000 0a
    0000001


    ssh refuses to tell the server to use a pseudo-terminal when its own input is not a terminal. You can force it with -tt though:



    $ echo x | ssh -tt localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
    0000000 x r n n
    0000004


    The line discipline does a lot more on the input side.



    Here, echo doesn't read its input nor was asked to output that xrnn so where does that come from? That's the local echo of the remote pseudo-terminal (stty echo). The ssh server is feeding the xn it read from the client to the master side of the remote pseudo-terminal. And the line discipline of that echoes it back (before stty opost is run which is why we see a CRLF and not LF). That's independent from whether the remote application reads anything from stdin or not.



    $ (sleep 1; printf '3') | ssh -tt localhost 'trap "echo ouch" INT; sleep 2'
    ^Couch


    The 0x3 character is echoed back as ^C (^ and C) because of stty echoctl and the shell and sleep receive a SIGINT because stty isig.



    So while:



    ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


    is bad enough, but



    ssh -tt host 'cat > remote-file' < local-file


    to transfer files the other way across is a lot worse. You'll get some CR -> LF translation, but also problems with all the special characters (^C, ^Z, ^D, ^?, ^S...) and also the remote cat will not see eof when the end of local-file is reached, only when ^D is sent after a r, n or another ^D like when doing cat > file in your terminal.






    share|improve this answer


























      up vote
      57
      down vote



      accepted










      TL;DR



      Don't use -t. -t involves a pseudo-terminal on the remote host and should only be used to run visual applications from a terminal.



      Explanation



      The linefeed character (also known as newline or n) is the one that when sent to a terminal tells the terminal to move its cursor down.



      Yet, when you run seq 3 in a terminal, that is where seq writes 1n2n3n to something like /dev/pts/0, you don't see:



      1
      2
      3


      but



      1
      2
      3


      Why is that?



      Actually, when seq 3 (or ssh host seq 3 for that matter) writes 1n2n3n, the terminal sees 1rn2rn3rn. That is, the line-feeds have been translated to carriage-return (upon which terminals move their cursor back to the left of the screen) and line-feed.



      That is done by the terminal device driver. More exactly, by the line-discipline of the terminal (or pseudo-terminal) device, a software module that resides in the kernel.



      You can control the behaviour of that line discipline with the stty command. The translation of LF -> CRLF is turned on with



      stty onlcr


      (which is generally enabled by default). You can turn it off with:



      stty -onlcr


      Or you can turn all output processing off with:



      stty -opost


      If you do that and run seq 3, you'll then see:



      $ stty -onlcr; seq 3
      1
      2
      3


      as expected.



      Now, when you do:



      seq 3 > some-file


      seq is no longer writing to a terminal, it's writing into a file, there's no translation being done. So some-file does contain 1n2n3n. The translation is only done when writing to a terminal device. And it's only done for display.



      similarly, when you do:



      ssh host seq 3


      ssh is writing 1n2n3n regardless of what ssh's output goes to.



      What actually happens is that the seq 3 command is run on host with its stdout redirected to a pipe. The ssh server on host reads the other end of the pipe and send it over the encrypted channel to your ssh client and the ssh client writes it onto its stdout, in your case a pseudo-terminal device, where LFs are translated to CRLF for display.



      Many interactive applications behave differently when their stdout is not a terminal. For instance, if you run:



      ssh host vi


      vi doesn't like it, it doesn't like its output going to a pipe. It thinks it's not talking to a device that is able to understand cursor positioning escape sequences for instance.



      So ssh has the -t option for that. With that option, the ssh server on host creates a pseudo-terminal device and makes that the stdout (and stdin, and stderr) of vi. What vi writes on that terminal device goes through that remote pseudo-terminal line discipline and is read by the ssh server and sent over the encrypted channel to the ssh client. It's the same as before except that instead of using a pipe, the ssh server uses a pseudo-terminal.



      The other difference is that on the client side, the ssh client sets the terminal in raw mode. That means that no translation is done there (opost is disabled and also other input-side behaviours). For instance, when you type Ctrl-C, instead of interrupting ssh, that ^C character is sent to the remote side, where the line discipline of the remote pseudo-terminal sends the interrupt to the remote command.



      When you do:



      ssh -t host seq 3


      seq 3 writes 1n2n3n to its stdout, which is a pseudo-terminal device. Because of onlcr, that gets translated on host to 1rn2rn3rn and sent to you over the encrypted channel. On your side there is no translation (onlcr disabled), so 1rn2rn3rn is displayed untouched (because of the raw mode) and correctly on the screen of your terminal emulator.



      Now, if you do:



      ssh -t host seq 3 > some-file


      There's no difference from above. ssh will write the same thing: 1rn2rn3rn, but this time into some-file.



      So basically all the LF in the output of seq have been translated to CRLF into some-file.



      It's the same if you do:



      ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


      All the LF characters (0x0a bytes) are being translated into CRLF (0x0d 0x0a).



      That's probably the reason for the corruption in your file. In the case of the second smaller file, it just so happens that the file doesn't contain 0x0a bytes, so there is no corruption.



      Note that you could get different types of corruption with different tty settings. Another potential type of corruption associated with -t is if your startup files on host (~/.bashrc, ~/.ssh/rc...) write things to their stderr, because with -t the stdout and stderr of the remote shell end up being merged into ssh's stdout (they both go to the pseudo-terminal device).



      You don't want the remote cat to output to a terminal device there.



      You want:



      ssh host cat remote-file > local-file


      You could do:



      ssh -t host 'stty -opost; cat remote-file` > local-file


      That would work (except in the writing to stderr corruption case discussed above), but even that would be sub-optimal as you'd have that unnecessary pseudo-terminal layer running on host.




      Some more fun:



      $ ssh localhost echo | od -tx1
      0000000 0a
      0000001


      OK.



      $ ssh -t localhost echo | od -tx1
      0000000 0d 0a
      0000002


      LF translated to CRLF



      $ ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
      0000000 0a
      0000001


      OK again.



      $ ssh -t localhost 'stty olcuc; echo x'
      X


      That's another form of output post-processing that can be done by the terminal line discipline.



      $ echo x | ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
      Pseudo-terminal will not be allocated because stdin is not a terminal.
      stty: standard input: Inappropriate ioctl for device
      0000000 0a
      0000001


      ssh refuses to tell the server to use a pseudo-terminal when its own input is not a terminal. You can force it with -tt though:



      $ echo x | ssh -tt localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
      0000000 x r n n
      0000004


      The line discipline does a lot more on the input side.



      Here, echo doesn't read its input nor was asked to output that xrnn so where does that come from? That's the local echo of the remote pseudo-terminal (stty echo). The ssh server is feeding the xn it read from the client to the master side of the remote pseudo-terminal. And the line discipline of that echoes it back (before stty opost is run which is why we see a CRLF and not LF). That's independent from whether the remote application reads anything from stdin or not.



      $ (sleep 1; printf '3') | ssh -tt localhost 'trap "echo ouch" INT; sleep 2'
      ^Couch


      The 0x3 character is echoed back as ^C (^ and C) because of stty echoctl and the shell and sleep receive a SIGINT because stty isig.



      So while:



      ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


      is bad enough, but



      ssh -tt host 'cat > remote-file' < local-file


      to transfer files the other way across is a lot worse. You'll get some CR -> LF translation, but also problems with all the special characters (^C, ^Z, ^D, ^?, ^S...) and also the remote cat will not see eof when the end of local-file is reached, only when ^D is sent after a r, n or another ^D like when doing cat > file in your terminal.






      share|improve this answer
























        up vote
        57
        down vote



        accepted







        up vote
        57
        down vote



        accepted






        TL;DR



        Don't use -t. -t involves a pseudo-terminal on the remote host and should only be used to run visual applications from a terminal.



        Explanation



        The linefeed character (also known as newline or n) is the one that when sent to a terminal tells the terminal to move its cursor down.



        Yet, when you run seq 3 in a terminal, that is where seq writes 1n2n3n to something like /dev/pts/0, you don't see:



        1
        2
        3


        but



        1
        2
        3


        Why is that?



        Actually, when seq 3 (or ssh host seq 3 for that matter) writes 1n2n3n, the terminal sees 1rn2rn3rn. That is, the line-feeds have been translated to carriage-return (upon which terminals move their cursor back to the left of the screen) and line-feed.



        That is done by the terminal device driver. More exactly, by the line-discipline of the terminal (or pseudo-terminal) device, a software module that resides in the kernel.



        You can control the behaviour of that line discipline with the stty command. The translation of LF -> CRLF is turned on with



        stty onlcr


        (which is generally enabled by default). You can turn it off with:



        stty -onlcr


        Or you can turn all output processing off with:



        stty -opost


        If you do that and run seq 3, you'll then see:



        $ stty -onlcr; seq 3
        1
        2
        3


        as expected.



        Now, when you do:



        seq 3 > some-file


        seq is no longer writing to a terminal, it's writing into a file, there's no translation being done. So some-file does contain 1n2n3n. The translation is only done when writing to a terminal device. And it's only done for display.



        similarly, when you do:



        ssh host seq 3


        ssh is writing 1n2n3n regardless of what ssh's output goes to.



        What actually happens is that the seq 3 command is run on host with its stdout redirected to a pipe. The ssh server on host reads the other end of the pipe and send it over the encrypted channel to your ssh client and the ssh client writes it onto its stdout, in your case a pseudo-terminal device, where LFs are translated to CRLF for display.



        Many interactive applications behave differently when their stdout is not a terminal. For instance, if you run:



        ssh host vi


        vi doesn't like it, it doesn't like its output going to a pipe. It thinks it's not talking to a device that is able to understand cursor positioning escape sequences for instance.



        So ssh has the -t option for that. With that option, the ssh server on host creates a pseudo-terminal device and makes that the stdout (and stdin, and stderr) of vi. What vi writes on that terminal device goes through that remote pseudo-terminal line discipline and is read by the ssh server and sent over the encrypted channel to the ssh client. It's the same as before except that instead of using a pipe, the ssh server uses a pseudo-terminal.



        The other difference is that on the client side, the ssh client sets the terminal in raw mode. That means that no translation is done there (opost is disabled and also other input-side behaviours). For instance, when you type Ctrl-C, instead of interrupting ssh, that ^C character is sent to the remote side, where the line discipline of the remote pseudo-terminal sends the interrupt to the remote command.



        When you do:



        ssh -t host seq 3


        seq 3 writes 1n2n3n to its stdout, which is a pseudo-terminal device. Because of onlcr, that gets translated on host to 1rn2rn3rn and sent to you over the encrypted channel. On your side there is no translation (onlcr disabled), so 1rn2rn3rn is displayed untouched (because of the raw mode) and correctly on the screen of your terminal emulator.



        Now, if you do:



        ssh -t host seq 3 > some-file


        There's no difference from above. ssh will write the same thing: 1rn2rn3rn, but this time into some-file.



        So basically all the LF in the output of seq have been translated to CRLF into some-file.



        It's the same if you do:



        ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


        All the LF characters (0x0a bytes) are being translated into CRLF (0x0d 0x0a).



        That's probably the reason for the corruption in your file. In the case of the second smaller file, it just so happens that the file doesn't contain 0x0a bytes, so there is no corruption.



        Note that you could get different types of corruption with different tty settings. Another potential type of corruption associated with -t is if your startup files on host (~/.bashrc, ~/.ssh/rc...) write things to their stderr, because with -t the stdout and stderr of the remote shell end up being merged into ssh's stdout (they both go to the pseudo-terminal device).



        You don't want the remote cat to output to a terminal device there.



        You want:



        ssh host cat remote-file > local-file


        You could do:



        ssh -t host 'stty -opost; cat remote-file` > local-file


        That would work (except in the writing to stderr corruption case discussed above), but even that would be sub-optimal as you'd have that unnecessary pseudo-terminal layer running on host.




        Some more fun:



        $ ssh localhost echo | od -tx1
        0000000 0a
        0000001


        OK.



        $ ssh -t localhost echo | od -tx1
        0000000 0d 0a
        0000002


        LF translated to CRLF



        $ ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
        0000000 0a
        0000001


        OK again.



        $ ssh -t localhost 'stty olcuc; echo x'
        X


        That's another form of output post-processing that can be done by the terminal line discipline.



        $ echo x | ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
        Pseudo-terminal will not be allocated because stdin is not a terminal.
        stty: standard input: Inappropriate ioctl for device
        0000000 0a
        0000001


        ssh refuses to tell the server to use a pseudo-terminal when its own input is not a terminal. You can force it with -tt though:



        $ echo x | ssh -tt localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
        0000000 x r n n
        0000004


        The line discipline does a lot more on the input side.



        Here, echo doesn't read its input nor was asked to output that xrnn so where does that come from? That's the local echo of the remote pseudo-terminal (stty echo). The ssh server is feeding the xn it read from the client to the master side of the remote pseudo-terminal. And the line discipline of that echoes it back (before stty opost is run which is why we see a CRLF and not LF). That's independent from whether the remote application reads anything from stdin or not.



        $ (sleep 1; printf '3') | ssh -tt localhost 'trap "echo ouch" INT; sleep 2'
        ^Couch


        The 0x3 character is echoed back as ^C (^ and C) because of stty echoctl and the shell and sleep receive a SIGINT because stty isig.



        So while:



        ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


        is bad enough, but



        ssh -tt host 'cat > remote-file' < local-file


        to transfer files the other way across is a lot worse. You'll get some CR -> LF translation, but also problems with all the special characters (^C, ^Z, ^D, ^?, ^S...) and also the remote cat will not see eof when the end of local-file is reached, only when ^D is sent after a r, n or another ^D like when doing cat > file in your terminal.






        share|improve this answer














        TL;DR



        Don't use -t. -t involves a pseudo-terminal on the remote host and should only be used to run visual applications from a terminal.



        Explanation



        The linefeed character (also known as newline or n) is the one that when sent to a terminal tells the terminal to move its cursor down.



        Yet, when you run seq 3 in a terminal, that is where seq writes 1n2n3n to something like /dev/pts/0, you don't see:



        1
        2
        3


        but



        1
        2
        3


        Why is that?



        Actually, when seq 3 (or ssh host seq 3 for that matter) writes 1n2n3n, the terminal sees 1rn2rn3rn. That is, the line-feeds have been translated to carriage-return (upon which terminals move their cursor back to the left of the screen) and line-feed.



        That is done by the terminal device driver. More exactly, by the line-discipline of the terminal (or pseudo-terminal) device, a software module that resides in the kernel.



        You can control the behaviour of that line discipline with the stty command. The translation of LF -> CRLF is turned on with



        stty onlcr


        (which is generally enabled by default). You can turn it off with:



        stty -onlcr


        Or you can turn all output processing off with:



        stty -opost


        If you do that and run seq 3, you'll then see:



        $ stty -onlcr; seq 3
        1
        2
        3


        as expected.



        Now, when you do:



        seq 3 > some-file


        seq is no longer writing to a terminal, it's writing into a file, there's no translation being done. So some-file does contain 1n2n3n. The translation is only done when writing to a terminal device. And it's only done for display.



        similarly, when you do:



        ssh host seq 3


        ssh is writing 1n2n3n regardless of what ssh's output goes to.



        What actually happens is that the seq 3 command is run on host with its stdout redirected to a pipe. The ssh server on host reads the other end of the pipe and send it over the encrypted channel to your ssh client and the ssh client writes it onto its stdout, in your case a pseudo-terminal device, where LFs are translated to CRLF for display.



        Many interactive applications behave differently when their stdout is not a terminal. For instance, if you run:



        ssh host vi


        vi doesn't like it, it doesn't like its output going to a pipe. It thinks it's not talking to a device that is able to understand cursor positioning escape sequences for instance.



        So ssh has the -t option for that. With that option, the ssh server on host creates a pseudo-terminal device and makes that the stdout (and stdin, and stderr) of vi. What vi writes on that terminal device goes through that remote pseudo-terminal line discipline and is read by the ssh server and sent over the encrypted channel to the ssh client. It's the same as before except that instead of using a pipe, the ssh server uses a pseudo-terminal.



        The other difference is that on the client side, the ssh client sets the terminal in raw mode. That means that no translation is done there (opost is disabled and also other input-side behaviours). For instance, when you type Ctrl-C, instead of interrupting ssh, that ^C character is sent to the remote side, where the line discipline of the remote pseudo-terminal sends the interrupt to the remote command.



        When you do:



        ssh -t host seq 3


        seq 3 writes 1n2n3n to its stdout, which is a pseudo-terminal device. Because of onlcr, that gets translated on host to 1rn2rn3rn and sent to you over the encrypted channel. On your side there is no translation (onlcr disabled), so 1rn2rn3rn is displayed untouched (because of the raw mode) and correctly on the screen of your terminal emulator.



        Now, if you do:



        ssh -t host seq 3 > some-file


        There's no difference from above. ssh will write the same thing: 1rn2rn3rn, but this time into some-file.



        So basically all the LF in the output of seq have been translated to CRLF into some-file.



        It's the same if you do:



        ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


        All the LF characters (0x0a bytes) are being translated into CRLF (0x0d 0x0a).



        That's probably the reason for the corruption in your file. In the case of the second smaller file, it just so happens that the file doesn't contain 0x0a bytes, so there is no corruption.



        Note that you could get different types of corruption with different tty settings. Another potential type of corruption associated with -t is if your startup files on host (~/.bashrc, ~/.ssh/rc...) write things to their stderr, because with -t the stdout and stderr of the remote shell end up being merged into ssh's stdout (they both go to the pseudo-terminal device).



        You don't want the remote cat to output to a terminal device there.



        You want:



        ssh host cat remote-file > local-file


        You could do:



        ssh -t host 'stty -opost; cat remote-file` > local-file


        That would work (except in the writing to stderr corruption case discussed above), but even that would be sub-optimal as you'd have that unnecessary pseudo-terminal layer running on host.




        Some more fun:



        $ ssh localhost echo | od -tx1
        0000000 0a
        0000001


        OK.



        $ ssh -t localhost echo | od -tx1
        0000000 0d 0a
        0000002


        LF translated to CRLF



        $ ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
        0000000 0a
        0000001


        OK again.



        $ ssh -t localhost 'stty olcuc; echo x'
        X


        That's another form of output post-processing that can be done by the terminal line discipline.



        $ echo x | ssh -t localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
        Pseudo-terminal will not be allocated because stdin is not a terminal.
        stty: standard input: Inappropriate ioctl for device
        0000000 0a
        0000001


        ssh refuses to tell the server to use a pseudo-terminal when its own input is not a terminal. You can force it with -tt though:



        $ echo x | ssh -tt localhost 'stty -opost; echo' | od -tx1
        0000000 x r n n
        0000004


        The line discipline does a lot more on the input side.



        Here, echo doesn't read its input nor was asked to output that xrnn so where does that come from? That's the local echo of the remote pseudo-terminal (stty echo). The ssh server is feeding the xn it read from the client to the master side of the remote pseudo-terminal. And the line discipline of that echoes it back (before stty opost is run which is why we see a CRLF and not LF). That's independent from whether the remote application reads anything from stdin or not.



        $ (sleep 1; printf '3') | ssh -tt localhost 'trap "echo ouch" INT; sleep 2'
        ^Couch


        The 0x3 character is echoed back as ^C (^ and C) because of stty echoctl and the shell and sleep receive a SIGINT because stty isig.



        So while:



        ssh -t host cat remote-file > local-file


        is bad enough, but



        ssh -tt host 'cat > remote-file' < local-file


        to transfer files the other way across is a lot worse. You'll get some CR -> LF translation, but also problems with all the special characters (^C, ^Z, ^D, ^?, ^S...) and also the remote cat will not see eof when the end of local-file is reached, only when ^D is sent after a r, n or another ^D like when doing cat > file in your terminal.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited Aug 6 '15 at 8:46

























        answered Aug 24 '14 at 20:21









        Stéphane Chazelas

        285k53525864




        285k53525864






















            up vote
            5
            down vote













            When using that method to copy the file the files appear to be different.



            Remote server



            ls -l | grep vim_cfg
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 slm slm 9783257 Aug 5 16:51 vim_cfg.tgz


            Local server



            Running your ssh ... cat command:



            $ ssh dufresne -t 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz


            Results in this file on the local server:



            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz 
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9820481 Aug 24 12:13 vim_cfg.tgz


            Investigating why?



            Investigating the resulting file on the local side shows that it's been corrupted. If you take the -t switch out of your ssh command then it works as expected.



            $ ssh dufresne 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz

            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9783257 Aug 24 12:17 vim_cfg.tgz


            Checksums now work too:



            # remote server
            $ ssh dufresne "md5sum ~/vim_cfg.tgz"
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 /home/slm/vim_cfg.tgz

            # local server
            $ md5sum vim_cfg.tgz
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 vim_cfg.tgz





            share|improve this answer






















            • Thank you Sim. Though in fact you were the first to post the correct answer, I did select Stéphane for the chosen answer due to the depth of his explanation. Not to worry, you've got a long post history that I am learning from, and of course I upvote those posts that I learn from. Thank you.
              – dotancohen
              Aug 25 '14 at 8:20










            • @dotancohen - no worries, you accept which ever A's you feel are the ones that help you as the OP the most 8-). His abilities to explain why things happens is unrivaled, except by Gilles.
              – slm♦
              Aug 25 '14 at 12:28















            up vote
            5
            down vote













            When using that method to copy the file the files appear to be different.



            Remote server



            ls -l | grep vim_cfg
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 slm slm 9783257 Aug 5 16:51 vim_cfg.tgz


            Local server



            Running your ssh ... cat command:



            $ ssh dufresne -t 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz


            Results in this file on the local server:



            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz 
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9820481 Aug 24 12:13 vim_cfg.tgz


            Investigating why?



            Investigating the resulting file on the local side shows that it's been corrupted. If you take the -t switch out of your ssh command then it works as expected.



            $ ssh dufresne 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz

            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9783257 Aug 24 12:17 vim_cfg.tgz


            Checksums now work too:



            # remote server
            $ ssh dufresne "md5sum ~/vim_cfg.tgz"
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 /home/slm/vim_cfg.tgz

            # local server
            $ md5sum vim_cfg.tgz
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 vim_cfg.tgz





            share|improve this answer






















            • Thank you Sim. Though in fact you were the first to post the correct answer, I did select Stéphane for the chosen answer due to the depth of his explanation. Not to worry, you've got a long post history that I am learning from, and of course I upvote those posts that I learn from. Thank you.
              – dotancohen
              Aug 25 '14 at 8:20










            • @dotancohen - no worries, you accept which ever A's you feel are the ones that help you as the OP the most 8-). His abilities to explain why things happens is unrivaled, except by Gilles.
              – slm♦
              Aug 25 '14 at 12:28













            up vote
            5
            down vote










            up vote
            5
            down vote









            When using that method to copy the file the files appear to be different.



            Remote server



            ls -l | grep vim_cfg
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 slm slm 9783257 Aug 5 16:51 vim_cfg.tgz


            Local server



            Running your ssh ... cat command:



            $ ssh dufresne -t 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz


            Results in this file on the local server:



            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz 
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9820481 Aug 24 12:13 vim_cfg.tgz


            Investigating why?



            Investigating the resulting file on the local side shows that it's been corrupted. If you take the -t switch out of your ssh command then it works as expected.



            $ ssh dufresne 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz

            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9783257 Aug 24 12:17 vim_cfg.tgz


            Checksums now work too:



            # remote server
            $ ssh dufresne "md5sum ~/vim_cfg.tgz"
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 /home/slm/vim_cfg.tgz

            # local server
            $ md5sum vim_cfg.tgz
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 vim_cfg.tgz





            share|improve this answer














            When using that method to copy the file the files appear to be different.



            Remote server



            ls -l | grep vim_cfg
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 slm slm 9783257 Aug 5 16:51 vim_cfg.tgz


            Local server



            Running your ssh ... cat command:



            $ ssh dufresne -t 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz


            Results in this file on the local server:



            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz 
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9820481 Aug 24 12:13 vim_cfg.tgz


            Investigating why?



            Investigating the resulting file on the local side shows that it's been corrupted. If you take the -t switch out of your ssh command then it works as expected.



            $ ssh dufresne 'cat ~/vim_cfg.tgz' > vim_cfg.tgz

            $ ls -l | grep vim_cfg.tgz
            -rw-rw-r--. 1 saml saml 9783257 Aug 24 12:17 vim_cfg.tgz


            Checksums now work too:



            # remote server
            $ ssh dufresne "md5sum ~/vim_cfg.tgz"
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 /home/slm/vim_cfg.tgz

            # local server
            $ md5sum vim_cfg.tgz
            9e70b036836dfdf2871e76b3636a72c6 vim_cfg.tgz






            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Aug 24 '14 at 16:20

























            answered Aug 24 '14 at 16:14









            slm♦

            239k65494664




            239k65494664











            • Thank you Sim. Though in fact you were the first to post the correct answer, I did select Stéphane for the chosen answer due to the depth of his explanation. Not to worry, you've got a long post history that I am learning from, and of course I upvote those posts that I learn from. Thank you.
              – dotancohen
              Aug 25 '14 at 8:20










            • @dotancohen - no worries, you accept which ever A's you feel are the ones that help you as the OP the most 8-). His abilities to explain why things happens is unrivaled, except by Gilles.
              – slm♦
              Aug 25 '14 at 12:28

















            • Thank you Sim. Though in fact you were the first to post the correct answer, I did select Stéphane for the chosen answer due to the depth of his explanation. Not to worry, you've got a long post history that I am learning from, and of course I upvote those posts that I learn from. Thank you.
              – dotancohen
              Aug 25 '14 at 8:20










            • @dotancohen - no worries, you accept which ever A's you feel are the ones that help you as the OP the most 8-). His abilities to explain why things happens is unrivaled, except by Gilles.
              – slm♦
              Aug 25 '14 at 12:28
















            Thank you Sim. Though in fact you were the first to post the correct answer, I did select Stéphane for the chosen answer due to the depth of his explanation. Not to worry, you've got a long post history that I am learning from, and of course I upvote those posts that I learn from. Thank you.
            – dotancohen
            Aug 25 '14 at 8:20




            Thank you Sim. Though in fact you were the first to post the correct answer, I did select Stéphane for the chosen answer due to the depth of his explanation. Not to worry, you've got a long post history that I am learning from, and of course I upvote those posts that I learn from. Thank you.
            – dotancohen
            Aug 25 '14 at 8:20












            @dotancohen - no worries, you accept which ever A's you feel are the ones that help you as the OP the most 8-). His abilities to explain why things happens is unrivaled, except by Gilles.
            – slm♦
            Aug 25 '14 at 12:28





            @dotancohen - no worries, you accept which ever A's you feel are the ones that help you as the OP the most 8-). His abilities to explain why things happens is unrivaled, except by Gilles.
            – slm♦
            Aug 25 '14 at 12:28


















             

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