Why doesn't a boost converter help overcome USB cable resistance?

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I ran a long USB extension cable from my pc to a WiFi adapter. The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect. To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)



Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening? The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low. So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?










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  • you did not explain completely how you connected the booster (which end of the cable did you put it on?) .... not that it makes much difference ... if it is on the PC end then the configuration is the same as with just the PC .... if it is on the WiFi adapter end, then it probably does not get enough power from the USB cable .... don't forget the converter output power is less than the input power
    – jsotola
    Sep 8 at 1:23






  • 1




    How long is the cable?
    – Ale..chenski
    Sep 8 at 1:47






  • 1




    I have a dumb question. What kind of WiFi adapter cannot be placed right next to PC? After all, moving WiFi location couple meters won't change your coverage much, if at all
    – Maple
    Sep 8 at 5:11










  • Note that even if you managed to make the power wired deliver what you need, and you didn’t have the timing issues described below, you would still have a problem with the data signals not delivering the expected voltages, in both directions... This is definitely not going to work...
    – jcaron
    Sep 8 at 10:47










  • @Maple: Moving a WiFi antenna by a few inches can make a huge difference in signal strength, if there's metal nearby.
    – Ben Voigt
    Sep 8 at 22:05















up vote
1
down vote

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I ran a long USB extension cable from my pc to a WiFi adapter. The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect. To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)



Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening? The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low. So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?










share|improve this question





















  • you did not explain completely how you connected the booster (which end of the cable did you put it on?) .... not that it makes much difference ... if it is on the PC end then the configuration is the same as with just the PC .... if it is on the WiFi adapter end, then it probably does not get enough power from the USB cable .... don't forget the converter output power is less than the input power
    – jsotola
    Sep 8 at 1:23






  • 1




    How long is the cable?
    – Ale..chenski
    Sep 8 at 1:47






  • 1




    I have a dumb question. What kind of WiFi adapter cannot be placed right next to PC? After all, moving WiFi location couple meters won't change your coverage much, if at all
    – Maple
    Sep 8 at 5:11










  • Note that even if you managed to make the power wired deliver what you need, and you didn’t have the timing issues described below, you would still have a problem with the data signals not delivering the expected voltages, in both directions... This is definitely not going to work...
    – jcaron
    Sep 8 at 10:47










  • @Maple: Moving a WiFi antenna by a few inches can make a huge difference in signal strength, if there's metal nearby.
    – Ben Voigt
    Sep 8 at 22:05













up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











I ran a long USB extension cable from my pc to a WiFi adapter. The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect. To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)



Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening? The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low. So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?










share|improve this question













I ran a long USB extension cable from my pc to a WiFi adapter. The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect. To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)



Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening? The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low. So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?







buck-boost






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asked Sep 8 at 0:59









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  • you did not explain completely how you connected the booster (which end of the cable did you put it on?) .... not that it makes much difference ... if it is on the PC end then the configuration is the same as with just the PC .... if it is on the WiFi adapter end, then it probably does not get enough power from the USB cable .... don't forget the converter output power is less than the input power
    – jsotola
    Sep 8 at 1:23






  • 1




    How long is the cable?
    – Ale..chenski
    Sep 8 at 1:47






  • 1




    I have a dumb question. What kind of WiFi adapter cannot be placed right next to PC? After all, moving WiFi location couple meters won't change your coverage much, if at all
    – Maple
    Sep 8 at 5:11










  • Note that even if you managed to make the power wired deliver what you need, and you didn’t have the timing issues described below, you would still have a problem with the data signals not delivering the expected voltages, in both directions... This is definitely not going to work...
    – jcaron
    Sep 8 at 10:47










  • @Maple: Moving a WiFi antenna by a few inches can make a huge difference in signal strength, if there's metal nearby.
    – Ben Voigt
    Sep 8 at 22:05

















  • you did not explain completely how you connected the booster (which end of the cable did you put it on?) .... not that it makes much difference ... if it is on the PC end then the configuration is the same as with just the PC .... if it is on the WiFi adapter end, then it probably does not get enough power from the USB cable .... don't forget the converter output power is less than the input power
    – jsotola
    Sep 8 at 1:23






  • 1




    How long is the cable?
    – Ale..chenski
    Sep 8 at 1:47






  • 1




    I have a dumb question. What kind of WiFi adapter cannot be placed right next to PC? After all, moving WiFi location couple meters won't change your coverage much, if at all
    – Maple
    Sep 8 at 5:11










  • Note that even if you managed to make the power wired deliver what you need, and you didn’t have the timing issues described below, you would still have a problem with the data signals not delivering the expected voltages, in both directions... This is definitely not going to work...
    – jcaron
    Sep 8 at 10:47










  • @Maple: Moving a WiFi antenna by a few inches can make a huge difference in signal strength, if there's metal nearby.
    – Ben Voigt
    Sep 8 at 22:05
















you did not explain completely how you connected the booster (which end of the cable did you put it on?) .... not that it makes much difference ... if it is on the PC end then the configuration is the same as with just the PC .... if it is on the WiFi adapter end, then it probably does not get enough power from the USB cable .... don't forget the converter output power is less than the input power
– jsotola
Sep 8 at 1:23




you did not explain completely how you connected the booster (which end of the cable did you put it on?) .... not that it makes much difference ... if it is on the PC end then the configuration is the same as with just the PC .... if it is on the WiFi adapter end, then it probably does not get enough power from the USB cable .... don't forget the converter output power is less than the input power
– jsotola
Sep 8 at 1:23




1




1




How long is the cable?
– Ale..chenski
Sep 8 at 1:47




How long is the cable?
– Ale..chenski
Sep 8 at 1:47




1




1




I have a dumb question. What kind of WiFi adapter cannot be placed right next to PC? After all, moving WiFi location couple meters won't change your coverage much, if at all
– Maple
Sep 8 at 5:11




I have a dumb question. What kind of WiFi adapter cannot be placed right next to PC? After all, moving WiFi location couple meters won't change your coverage much, if at all
– Maple
Sep 8 at 5:11












Note that even if you managed to make the power wired deliver what you need, and you didn’t have the timing issues described below, you would still have a problem with the data signals not delivering the expected voltages, in both directions... This is definitely not going to work...
– jcaron
Sep 8 at 10:47




Note that even if you managed to make the power wired deliver what you need, and you didn’t have the timing issues described below, you would still have a problem with the data signals not delivering the expected voltages, in both directions... This is definitely not going to work...
– jcaron
Sep 8 at 10:47












@Maple: Moving a WiFi antenna by a few inches can make a huge difference in signal strength, if there's metal nearby.
– Ben Voigt
Sep 8 at 22:05





@Maple: Moving a WiFi antenna by a few inches can make a huge difference in signal strength, if there's metal nearby.
– Ben Voigt
Sep 8 at 22:05











4 Answers
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You have discovered the negative resistance feature that occurs with switch mode regulators.



This is a very simplified explanation of what is going on. For all intents and purposes and assuming a fixed load, you can consider the regulator to be a constant-power device. If the input voltage increases, the input current decreases. The opposite occurs when the input voltage decreases - the input current increases.



Now consider what happens when the load current increases. The input current has to increase to handle increased load current. But: the resistance of the USB cable means that the input voltage decreases. Recall that I mentioned that the input current has to Increase when the input voltage drops.



This is a vicious cycle and results with the voltage input to the regulator dropping to a very low value.



There are a couple of ways to fix the problem.



1) Add a pair of heavy wires in parallel with the power conductors of the USB cable.



2) Use a boost converter at the source end of the USB cable, followed by a buck converter at the load end. In other words, feed the power input of the USB cable with a voltage that is high enough to overcome the wire resistance.






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  • If you have a boost converter with a separate feedback input, you could run a sense wire all the way to the other end of the USB cable. That way, you don't need a buck converter on the other end.
    – tangrs
    Sep 9 at 6:14






  • 1




    That is a good idea except for one problem: it does not not account for the voltage drop in the ground conductor.
    – Dwayne Reid
    Sep 9 at 22:38










  • You could still sense the remote ground as well; the USB cable has 2 power and 2 data conductors... You could just creatively use the 2 'data' conductors for the sensing
    – Richard the Spacecat
    Sep 10 at 9:26

















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A voltage-output boost converter also boosts input current by as much the voltage ratio that it is capable of boosting to support the power rating. Normally, the boost draws current then flyback a higher voltage at a variable frequency depending on load. However the charge current could have a crest factor of >5x that is normally dampened by a low ESR input bulk cap. However if the USB source impedance added to the cable resistance does not permit the boost current to rise fast enough, the output fails to achieve regulation.



I would add a large bulk input storage cap sized according to potential PTC poly resistor fuses such that they do not trip if using heavier DC cable does not fix it.






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    You should read the USB standards, which states that 2 meters is the maximum cable length (with present standards). It has nothing to do with power so much as power supplies made now days can boost the voltage as high as 27 volts, and there is talk of a 48 volt version.



    Adding a boost converter is dangerous as the device must request a specific voltage from the more advanced power supplies. If you just want a long distance charge ability then just bypass the existing power/ground wires in the USB cable with much heavier gauge wire. 10 Awg should be good enough.



    USB packet timing is 1 millisecond apart. If an endpoint device cannot respond to queries within 1 ms its connection is terminated as if it had been unplugged. Unlike Ethernet, USB does not have the complex speed management algorithms or a "push back" function to slow down the data stream or adjust packet size and timing.



    A USB cable has a higher capacitance per meter than Cat-5 Ethernet, so even at 2 meters it has severe speed and current limits. USB-C works around this with 4 pairs of data channels instead of 1 plus higher voltage options. One ms seems like a long time to CAT-5 cable, but for current standard USB cables 4 meters would be a problem. USB-C proves that there is an effort to get past power and speed limits, but current cable designs put a severe limit on length, even at the lowest standard speed.



    Making a USB cable 4 meters long can violate this nitpicky timing rule. It may be ok for charging purposes though some power loss will occur.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 1




      USB does work through much longer cables than 2 meters in practice. And 1 ms is a long enough time that you could go hundreds of kilometers before failing that (but there are other, stricter timing limits IIRC).
      – jpa
      Sep 8 at 6:44










    • @jpa. You obviously have not read the USB standards and assume a great deal, and you are wrong. A 4 meter USB cable is not guaranteed to work at full speed (480 mbps).
      – Sparky256
      Sep 8 at 7:38










    • If you want to keep downvoting this answer at least be an adult and explain why.
      – Sparky256
      Sep 8 at 23:14






    • 1




      The problem isn't latency or delay (allowed up to 1 ms -- why does your answer measure time in Siemens?) The problem is the effect of the capacitance on rise and fall times, fractions of a nanosecond matter.
      – Ben Voigt
      Sep 9 at 14:51











    • @BenVoigt. I fixed the "Siemens" typo but did not elaborate on cable capacitance, as the OP's question was about long distance power transfer for charging.
      – Sparky256
      Sep 9 at 19:10

















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    Why doesn't a boost converter help overcome USB cable resistance?



    I ran a long USB extension cable from my PC to a WiFi adapter.




    Note that not all PC USB ports are specced to deliver a full 2A or special charging voltages over USB. In data mode, the highest(usb 3.x) current specified is 900mA. I use Rampage Extreme motherboards, which are relatively top of the line for a desktop, and even on these a few extra steps have to be taken to enable it's full USB function. Even with this function enabled, note that USB port power is likely ganged together onto rails, in which case spreading high power usb devices across rails may be necessary. It's probably not a bad idea to measure the resistance of your cable and make sure that your voltage drop can be accounted for. If you're losing 2v at 300mA, you should have about 6.66 ohms.




    The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect.




    This is probably the best place to attack the problem. Use better (larger power wire) cable, possibly make your own. If you really want premade, shielding would help, and for store bought cable, a single cable of a given length is more likely to have lower impedance than 2 or more connected in series, because it was intended to be that length. Your cable has already been cut, so you can guess at how much this will help by splicing larger wires in parallel to the power wires.



    You appear to be trying to use existing equipment, either to save money or to use in combination with something like a laptop with limited port selection.



    If you'd like to save money and you don't mind a solder/heatshrink/electrical tape solution, this is probably cheapest, especially if you can get some cheap larger guage wire to test with, as parasitic inductance and capacitance on data lines will likely be the limiting factor and determine whether you need an inline signal boost.



    The maximum power a wire can transfer at a given voltage occurs when voltage drop accounts for half of original voltage, as mentioned by Ben Voigt, if you're losing 2V, you're operating close to this limit already.



    If simply using a better cable is not good enough, or the size of wire you'll need to reduce volt drop to say 10% is larger than you want, you may be able to convert to a higher voltage at the start of the cable and back to 5V at the other end of the cable to reduce losses, but bear in mind that you will use power in both voltage conversions.



    For example: If you find a 24v to 5v buck converter that is 95% efficient when operating at 24v in and 300mA out, it will need 66mA in at 24v. If your cable resistance stays roughly at 6.66 ohms, your volt drop will be 0.43v, only 1.8% instead of 40%. If you can find a 5v to 24v boost converter that is 95% efficient at 5V in and 66mA out, you will only be drawing 340mA at 5V and have a solid 5V output. Total end to end loss is reduced to 12% instead of 40%. This is how voltage conversion to reduce line loss works. It is crucial to take efficiency at intended load into account. If both voltage converters are 90% efficient instead of 95% efficent, end loss increases to 20%, still better than the original, but far from ideal. Look at these from a converter manufacturer I'm familiar with:



    Murata P78A efficiency over load



    These are from the same datasheet and marked "efficiency up to 91%" in product information, but as you can see, if you have 24V input and 5V out, your efficiency maxes out at 85%. It appears they've used different switching methods for the two output voltage versions. The first one I'm guessing is pulse frequency driven, so switching time compared to on time for a pulse remains the same across the load spectrum and at very low currents decrease in conduction losses appears to allow increased efficiency. The 5vdc version appears to be using PWM type switching, which increases losses as load decreases because the switching time remains the same as on time decreases. Both converters also suffer higher losses at higher output voltages for this reason. The higher the voltage, the more ON time must decrease while switching speed stays the same and the more resistive losses there will be on the primary side of the circuit. I'm just speculating on the nature of these converters based on their efficiency curves, but the point is, you have to take this step to confirm the efficiency at the intended worst case load and input voltage for that specific device. If you were using the 5VDC converter in the right hand graph, you'd be operating at 70% or worse efficiency. You might still have your 5V output, but you'd be drawing 628mA @5V on one end of the cable to give yourself 300mA @5V on the other end, and your overall efficency would only be 47.8%, worse than the efficiency of the original volt drop problem. Note that even in this case, actual line loss is only using 2.5% of the power. The higher transmission voltage is still helping, just the conversion losses dominate.



    You can see that the device doesn't just have to correct voltage, but also efficiency loss as well, especially because as a design principle, if you make such a device it should follow the rules for usb loads itself, draw no more than 500mA for USB 2 and 900mA for USB 3. This means if you can find 5V->24V->5V voltage converters that are about 95% efficient at the right load levels and you use a 6.5 ohm cable, you can output about 438mA max with an input of 500mA at 5V.




    To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



    I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)




    Edit: the following paragraph was not appreciated on principle, so I've added some clarification rather than removing it, because while this paragraph states that the method may be possible, as it is with a voltage stabilizer, it is meant to dissuade from incorrect application in an informative way. Because OP is so close to the hard limit of power the cable can carry at 5V, it will not be possible to use just an inline boost converter.



    Well, it was worth a shot, and you still may be able to pull it off, however, show us specs for the boost converter you chose. Lots of switching converters' efficiencies decreases at lower loads, so at 300mA @ 5V @ .7 efficiency will require 2.14 VA, so 714mA at 3V(The USB output on the other end of the wires will still have to put out 714mA at 5V). One other thing to note is that a boost converter combined with an inadequate source will keep pulling more current at lower voltage(due to the line drop and load regulation of the source) to support it's output, so if load regulation is a problem in the first place, the boost converter will aggravate it.




    Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening?




    Yep, that sounds like a load regulation problem. The voltage source in your computer is just unable to output enough total power to support the actual load plus line losses(aggravated by the boost converter) plus the losses of the converter itself. You can think of the resistance of the USB cable as resistors on the output of the power supply, which is exactly what they are, and the more resistance, the worse load regulation will be, even if the power supply itself maintains full 5v output right up to it's cutoff point. Judging by brownout my keyboard sometimes causes at max brightness when on the same bus as another high power device, I suspect voltage can actually sag significantly before cutoff, and it can definitely support a significant near-short load (short circuit or shoot through from an aliexpress USB device was sufficient to melt plastic casing of the device before I disconnected it, and I suspect more than 10w were involved just from the speed of the incident).




    The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low.




    All wires in a house are (if installed correctly) adequately sized and also current protected, and line voltage from the power company generally has good regulation, so giving a small voltage updoot would not be a big problem, however, normal practice for large voltage drops is to go to higher voltage and/or larger wire to reduce losses.



    The voltage regulator in question deals with a specific problem, inadequate voltage at destination, and these are used in locations where electrical networks are inadequate or equipment connected to them distorts the signal too much. or particularly clean power is needed. In order to do it's job, it uses power, increasing line losses on it's input lines.




    So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?




    The stabilizer is being used so much as a signal booster and as an active filter. It has an adequate power source, or in cases where it doesn't, it will also be unable to maintain output. The root cause of the problem in some countries is inadequacy of the electrical network in the first place, which could include both the distribution lines and the sources, but in these cases, the AC stabilizers would basically increase the share of the total power that it's output received and use more power in the process. This means when the source is inadequate, that all of the lines with a stabilizer on them would be aggravating brownout on all of the lines without a stabilizer, same as a boost converter is aggravating the problem in your circuit.



    Thanks to Ben Voigt for useful usb info.






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    • 1




      "you still may be able to pull it off" is wishful thinking. Even if the PC power supply were willing to provide infinite current to the USB port at 5V, you correctly noted that the boost converter will draw more input current than the output current it provides... and that input current will cause a larger IR drop in the long cable. The problem is not the source regulation, it's the cable resistance. The only way to get more power to the load is to boost the source voltage above 5V.
      – Ben Voigt
      Sep 8 at 22:01










    • @BenVoigt If he has 2A capable usb ports and just has to enable them, I actually suspect he'll be fine without even a boost converter. I answered based on the assumption that if OP wants he can confirm insufficient output and also that a long USB power option is being used because of an awkwardness of providing a signal boost from a 120v powered hub(Just using one rated for a full 2A output between the computer and the long usb cable should likely do the trick) or usb->cat6->usb if necessary.
      – K H
      Sep 9 at 0:15






    • 1




      If he were exceeding the current draw of the host, he'd have 0V at the device, not 3V. The symptoms indicate that OP's diagnosis of voltage drop in the cable is indeed correct. The only way to deal with resistive voltage drop is to increase the supply voltage. BTW, no USB host supplies 2A, the highest limit in the spec (and only available on USB 3.x) is 900mA. More than that is only available on a charge-only circuit, which may use the USB connector but is not USB compliant. But even assuming a charger circuit, the maximum power delivery to the load occurs for any given cable
      – Ben Voigt
      Sep 9 at 1:21






    • 1




      (continued) is when 50% of the voltage is resistively lost in the cable. With a load voltage of 3V, OP is already operating near that point.
      – Ben Voigt
      Sep 9 at 1:21







    • 1




      Switching from bus powered to self-powered is definitely a good option. The problem with data lines for long runs isn't the IR voltage drop, it's slowed rise times and in general trouble meeting the eye diagram. Typically overcome using cables that have active buffers to regenerate the edges and keep them nice and sharp.
      – Ben Voigt
      Sep 9 at 14:47










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    4 Answers
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    4 Answers
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    up vote
    9
    down vote













    You have discovered the negative resistance feature that occurs with switch mode regulators.



    This is a very simplified explanation of what is going on. For all intents and purposes and assuming a fixed load, you can consider the regulator to be a constant-power device. If the input voltage increases, the input current decreases. The opposite occurs when the input voltage decreases - the input current increases.



    Now consider what happens when the load current increases. The input current has to increase to handle increased load current. But: the resistance of the USB cable means that the input voltage decreases. Recall that I mentioned that the input current has to Increase when the input voltage drops.



    This is a vicious cycle and results with the voltage input to the regulator dropping to a very low value.



    There are a couple of ways to fix the problem.



    1) Add a pair of heavy wires in parallel with the power conductors of the USB cable.



    2) Use a boost converter at the source end of the USB cable, followed by a buck converter at the load end. In other words, feed the power input of the USB cable with a voltage that is high enough to overcome the wire resistance.






    share|improve this answer






















    • If you have a boost converter with a separate feedback input, you could run a sense wire all the way to the other end of the USB cable. That way, you don't need a buck converter on the other end.
      – tangrs
      Sep 9 at 6:14






    • 1




      That is a good idea except for one problem: it does not not account for the voltage drop in the ground conductor.
      – Dwayne Reid
      Sep 9 at 22:38










    • You could still sense the remote ground as well; the USB cable has 2 power and 2 data conductors... You could just creatively use the 2 'data' conductors for the sensing
      – Richard the Spacecat
      Sep 10 at 9:26














    up vote
    9
    down vote













    You have discovered the negative resistance feature that occurs with switch mode regulators.



    This is a very simplified explanation of what is going on. For all intents and purposes and assuming a fixed load, you can consider the regulator to be a constant-power device. If the input voltage increases, the input current decreases. The opposite occurs when the input voltage decreases - the input current increases.



    Now consider what happens when the load current increases. The input current has to increase to handle increased load current. But: the resistance of the USB cable means that the input voltage decreases. Recall that I mentioned that the input current has to Increase when the input voltage drops.



    This is a vicious cycle and results with the voltage input to the regulator dropping to a very low value.



    There are a couple of ways to fix the problem.



    1) Add a pair of heavy wires in parallel with the power conductors of the USB cable.



    2) Use a boost converter at the source end of the USB cable, followed by a buck converter at the load end. In other words, feed the power input of the USB cable with a voltage that is high enough to overcome the wire resistance.






    share|improve this answer






















    • If you have a boost converter with a separate feedback input, you could run a sense wire all the way to the other end of the USB cable. That way, you don't need a buck converter on the other end.
      – tangrs
      Sep 9 at 6:14






    • 1




      That is a good idea except for one problem: it does not not account for the voltage drop in the ground conductor.
      – Dwayne Reid
      Sep 9 at 22:38










    • You could still sense the remote ground as well; the USB cable has 2 power and 2 data conductors... You could just creatively use the 2 'data' conductors for the sensing
      – Richard the Spacecat
      Sep 10 at 9:26












    up vote
    9
    down vote










    up vote
    9
    down vote









    You have discovered the negative resistance feature that occurs with switch mode regulators.



    This is a very simplified explanation of what is going on. For all intents and purposes and assuming a fixed load, you can consider the regulator to be a constant-power device. If the input voltage increases, the input current decreases. The opposite occurs when the input voltage decreases - the input current increases.



    Now consider what happens when the load current increases. The input current has to increase to handle increased load current. But: the resistance of the USB cable means that the input voltage decreases. Recall that I mentioned that the input current has to Increase when the input voltage drops.



    This is a vicious cycle and results with the voltage input to the regulator dropping to a very low value.



    There are a couple of ways to fix the problem.



    1) Add a pair of heavy wires in parallel with the power conductors of the USB cable.



    2) Use a boost converter at the source end of the USB cable, followed by a buck converter at the load end. In other words, feed the power input of the USB cable with a voltage that is high enough to overcome the wire resistance.






    share|improve this answer














    You have discovered the negative resistance feature that occurs with switch mode regulators.



    This is a very simplified explanation of what is going on. For all intents and purposes and assuming a fixed load, you can consider the regulator to be a constant-power device. If the input voltage increases, the input current decreases. The opposite occurs when the input voltage decreases - the input current increases.



    Now consider what happens when the load current increases. The input current has to increase to handle increased load current. But: the resistance of the USB cable means that the input voltage decreases. Recall that I mentioned that the input current has to Increase when the input voltage drops.



    This is a vicious cycle and results with the voltage input to the regulator dropping to a very low value.



    There are a couple of ways to fix the problem.



    1) Add a pair of heavy wires in parallel with the power conductors of the USB cable.



    2) Use a boost converter at the source end of the USB cable, followed by a buck converter at the load end. In other words, feed the power input of the USB cable with a voltage that is high enough to overcome the wire resistance.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Sep 9 at 3:38

























    answered Sep 8 at 1:47









    Dwayne Reid

    17k11545




    17k11545











    • If you have a boost converter with a separate feedback input, you could run a sense wire all the way to the other end of the USB cable. That way, you don't need a buck converter on the other end.
      – tangrs
      Sep 9 at 6:14






    • 1




      That is a good idea except for one problem: it does not not account for the voltage drop in the ground conductor.
      – Dwayne Reid
      Sep 9 at 22:38










    • You could still sense the remote ground as well; the USB cable has 2 power and 2 data conductors... You could just creatively use the 2 'data' conductors for the sensing
      – Richard the Spacecat
      Sep 10 at 9:26
















    • If you have a boost converter with a separate feedback input, you could run a sense wire all the way to the other end of the USB cable. That way, you don't need a buck converter on the other end.
      – tangrs
      Sep 9 at 6:14






    • 1




      That is a good idea except for one problem: it does not not account for the voltage drop in the ground conductor.
      – Dwayne Reid
      Sep 9 at 22:38










    • You could still sense the remote ground as well; the USB cable has 2 power and 2 data conductors... You could just creatively use the 2 'data' conductors for the sensing
      – Richard the Spacecat
      Sep 10 at 9:26















    If you have a boost converter with a separate feedback input, you could run a sense wire all the way to the other end of the USB cable. That way, you don't need a buck converter on the other end.
    – tangrs
    Sep 9 at 6:14




    If you have a boost converter with a separate feedback input, you could run a sense wire all the way to the other end of the USB cable. That way, you don't need a buck converter on the other end.
    – tangrs
    Sep 9 at 6:14




    1




    1




    That is a good idea except for one problem: it does not not account for the voltage drop in the ground conductor.
    – Dwayne Reid
    Sep 9 at 22:38




    That is a good idea except for one problem: it does not not account for the voltage drop in the ground conductor.
    – Dwayne Reid
    Sep 9 at 22:38












    You could still sense the remote ground as well; the USB cable has 2 power and 2 data conductors... You could just creatively use the 2 'data' conductors for the sensing
    – Richard the Spacecat
    Sep 10 at 9:26




    You could still sense the remote ground as well; the USB cable has 2 power and 2 data conductors... You could just creatively use the 2 'data' conductors for the sensing
    – Richard the Spacecat
    Sep 10 at 9:26












    up vote
    0
    down vote













    A voltage-output boost converter also boosts input current by as much the voltage ratio that it is capable of boosting to support the power rating. Normally, the boost draws current then flyback a higher voltage at a variable frequency depending on load. However the charge current could have a crest factor of >5x that is normally dampened by a low ESR input bulk cap. However if the USB source impedance added to the cable resistance does not permit the boost current to rise fast enough, the output fails to achieve regulation.



    I would add a large bulk input storage cap sized according to potential PTC poly resistor fuses such that they do not trip if using heavier DC cable does not fix it.






    share|improve this answer
























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      A voltage-output boost converter also boosts input current by as much the voltage ratio that it is capable of boosting to support the power rating. Normally, the boost draws current then flyback a higher voltage at a variable frequency depending on load. However the charge current could have a crest factor of >5x that is normally dampened by a low ESR input bulk cap. However if the USB source impedance added to the cable resistance does not permit the boost current to rise fast enough, the output fails to achieve regulation.



      I would add a large bulk input storage cap sized according to potential PTC poly resistor fuses such that they do not trip if using heavier DC cable does not fix it.






      share|improve this answer






















        up vote
        0
        down vote










        up vote
        0
        down vote









        A voltage-output boost converter also boosts input current by as much the voltage ratio that it is capable of boosting to support the power rating. Normally, the boost draws current then flyback a higher voltage at a variable frequency depending on load. However the charge current could have a crest factor of >5x that is normally dampened by a low ESR input bulk cap. However if the USB source impedance added to the cable resistance does not permit the boost current to rise fast enough, the output fails to achieve regulation.



        I would add a large bulk input storage cap sized according to potential PTC poly resistor fuses such that they do not trip if using heavier DC cable does not fix it.






        share|improve this answer












        A voltage-output boost converter also boosts input current by as much the voltage ratio that it is capable of boosting to support the power rating. Normally, the boost draws current then flyback a higher voltage at a variable frequency depending on load. However the charge current could have a crest factor of >5x that is normally dampened by a low ESR input bulk cap. However if the USB source impedance added to the cable resistance does not permit the boost current to rise fast enough, the output fails to achieve regulation.



        I would add a large bulk input storage cap sized according to potential PTC poly resistor fuses such that they do not trip if using heavier DC cable does not fix it.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Sep 8 at 4:58









        Tony EE rocketscientist

        58.9k22087




        58.9k22087




















            up vote
            0
            down vote













            You should read the USB standards, which states that 2 meters is the maximum cable length (with present standards). It has nothing to do with power so much as power supplies made now days can boost the voltage as high as 27 volts, and there is talk of a 48 volt version.



            Adding a boost converter is dangerous as the device must request a specific voltage from the more advanced power supplies. If you just want a long distance charge ability then just bypass the existing power/ground wires in the USB cable with much heavier gauge wire. 10 Awg should be good enough.



            USB packet timing is 1 millisecond apart. If an endpoint device cannot respond to queries within 1 ms its connection is terminated as if it had been unplugged. Unlike Ethernet, USB does not have the complex speed management algorithms or a "push back" function to slow down the data stream or adjust packet size and timing.



            A USB cable has a higher capacitance per meter than Cat-5 Ethernet, so even at 2 meters it has severe speed and current limits. USB-C works around this with 4 pairs of data channels instead of 1 plus higher voltage options. One ms seems like a long time to CAT-5 cable, but for current standard USB cables 4 meters would be a problem. USB-C proves that there is an effort to get past power and speed limits, but current cable designs put a severe limit on length, even at the lowest standard speed.



            Making a USB cable 4 meters long can violate this nitpicky timing rule. It may be ok for charging purposes though some power loss will occur.






            share|improve this answer


















            • 1




              USB does work through much longer cables than 2 meters in practice. And 1 ms is a long enough time that you could go hundreds of kilometers before failing that (but there are other, stricter timing limits IIRC).
              – jpa
              Sep 8 at 6:44










            • @jpa. You obviously have not read the USB standards and assume a great deal, and you are wrong. A 4 meter USB cable is not guaranteed to work at full speed (480 mbps).
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 7:38










            • If you want to keep downvoting this answer at least be an adult and explain why.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 23:14






            • 1




              The problem isn't latency or delay (allowed up to 1 ms -- why does your answer measure time in Siemens?) The problem is the effect of the capacitance on rise and fall times, fractions of a nanosecond matter.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:51











            • @BenVoigt. I fixed the "Siemens" typo but did not elaborate on cable capacitance, as the OP's question was about long distance power transfer for charging.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 9 at 19:10














            up vote
            0
            down vote













            You should read the USB standards, which states that 2 meters is the maximum cable length (with present standards). It has nothing to do with power so much as power supplies made now days can boost the voltage as high as 27 volts, and there is talk of a 48 volt version.



            Adding a boost converter is dangerous as the device must request a specific voltage from the more advanced power supplies. If you just want a long distance charge ability then just bypass the existing power/ground wires in the USB cable with much heavier gauge wire. 10 Awg should be good enough.



            USB packet timing is 1 millisecond apart. If an endpoint device cannot respond to queries within 1 ms its connection is terminated as if it had been unplugged. Unlike Ethernet, USB does not have the complex speed management algorithms or a "push back" function to slow down the data stream or adjust packet size and timing.



            A USB cable has a higher capacitance per meter than Cat-5 Ethernet, so even at 2 meters it has severe speed and current limits. USB-C works around this with 4 pairs of data channels instead of 1 plus higher voltage options. One ms seems like a long time to CAT-5 cable, but for current standard USB cables 4 meters would be a problem. USB-C proves that there is an effort to get past power and speed limits, but current cable designs put a severe limit on length, even at the lowest standard speed.



            Making a USB cable 4 meters long can violate this nitpicky timing rule. It may be ok for charging purposes though some power loss will occur.






            share|improve this answer


















            • 1




              USB does work through much longer cables than 2 meters in practice. And 1 ms is a long enough time that you could go hundreds of kilometers before failing that (but there are other, stricter timing limits IIRC).
              – jpa
              Sep 8 at 6:44










            • @jpa. You obviously have not read the USB standards and assume a great deal, and you are wrong. A 4 meter USB cable is not guaranteed to work at full speed (480 mbps).
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 7:38










            • If you want to keep downvoting this answer at least be an adult and explain why.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 23:14






            • 1




              The problem isn't latency or delay (allowed up to 1 ms -- why does your answer measure time in Siemens?) The problem is the effect of the capacitance on rise and fall times, fractions of a nanosecond matter.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:51











            • @BenVoigt. I fixed the "Siemens" typo but did not elaborate on cable capacitance, as the OP's question was about long distance power transfer for charging.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 9 at 19:10












            up vote
            0
            down vote










            up vote
            0
            down vote









            You should read the USB standards, which states that 2 meters is the maximum cable length (with present standards). It has nothing to do with power so much as power supplies made now days can boost the voltage as high as 27 volts, and there is talk of a 48 volt version.



            Adding a boost converter is dangerous as the device must request a specific voltage from the more advanced power supplies. If you just want a long distance charge ability then just bypass the existing power/ground wires in the USB cable with much heavier gauge wire. 10 Awg should be good enough.



            USB packet timing is 1 millisecond apart. If an endpoint device cannot respond to queries within 1 ms its connection is terminated as if it had been unplugged. Unlike Ethernet, USB does not have the complex speed management algorithms or a "push back" function to slow down the data stream or adjust packet size and timing.



            A USB cable has a higher capacitance per meter than Cat-5 Ethernet, so even at 2 meters it has severe speed and current limits. USB-C works around this with 4 pairs of data channels instead of 1 plus higher voltage options. One ms seems like a long time to CAT-5 cable, but for current standard USB cables 4 meters would be a problem. USB-C proves that there is an effort to get past power and speed limits, but current cable designs put a severe limit on length, even at the lowest standard speed.



            Making a USB cable 4 meters long can violate this nitpicky timing rule. It may be ok for charging purposes though some power loss will occur.






            share|improve this answer














            You should read the USB standards, which states that 2 meters is the maximum cable length (with present standards). It has nothing to do with power so much as power supplies made now days can boost the voltage as high as 27 volts, and there is talk of a 48 volt version.



            Adding a boost converter is dangerous as the device must request a specific voltage from the more advanced power supplies. If you just want a long distance charge ability then just bypass the existing power/ground wires in the USB cable with much heavier gauge wire. 10 Awg should be good enough.



            USB packet timing is 1 millisecond apart. If an endpoint device cannot respond to queries within 1 ms its connection is terminated as if it had been unplugged. Unlike Ethernet, USB does not have the complex speed management algorithms or a "push back" function to slow down the data stream or adjust packet size and timing.



            A USB cable has a higher capacitance per meter than Cat-5 Ethernet, so even at 2 meters it has severe speed and current limits. USB-C works around this with 4 pairs of data channels instead of 1 plus higher voltage options. One ms seems like a long time to CAT-5 cable, but for current standard USB cables 4 meters would be a problem. USB-C proves that there is an effort to get past power and speed limits, but current cable designs put a severe limit on length, even at the lowest standard speed.



            Making a USB cable 4 meters long can violate this nitpicky timing rule. It may be ok for charging purposes though some power loss will occur.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Sep 9 at 19:08

























            answered Sep 8 at 4:02









            Sparky256

            9,90921334




            9,90921334







            • 1




              USB does work through much longer cables than 2 meters in practice. And 1 ms is a long enough time that you could go hundreds of kilometers before failing that (but there are other, stricter timing limits IIRC).
              – jpa
              Sep 8 at 6:44










            • @jpa. You obviously have not read the USB standards and assume a great deal, and you are wrong. A 4 meter USB cable is not guaranteed to work at full speed (480 mbps).
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 7:38










            • If you want to keep downvoting this answer at least be an adult and explain why.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 23:14






            • 1




              The problem isn't latency or delay (allowed up to 1 ms -- why does your answer measure time in Siemens?) The problem is the effect of the capacitance on rise and fall times, fractions of a nanosecond matter.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:51











            • @BenVoigt. I fixed the "Siemens" typo but did not elaborate on cable capacitance, as the OP's question was about long distance power transfer for charging.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 9 at 19:10












            • 1




              USB does work through much longer cables than 2 meters in practice. And 1 ms is a long enough time that you could go hundreds of kilometers before failing that (but there are other, stricter timing limits IIRC).
              – jpa
              Sep 8 at 6:44










            • @jpa. You obviously have not read the USB standards and assume a great deal, and you are wrong. A 4 meter USB cable is not guaranteed to work at full speed (480 mbps).
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 7:38










            • If you want to keep downvoting this answer at least be an adult and explain why.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 8 at 23:14






            • 1




              The problem isn't latency or delay (allowed up to 1 ms -- why does your answer measure time in Siemens?) The problem is the effect of the capacitance on rise and fall times, fractions of a nanosecond matter.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:51











            • @BenVoigt. I fixed the "Siemens" typo but did not elaborate on cable capacitance, as the OP's question was about long distance power transfer for charging.
              – Sparky256
              Sep 9 at 19:10







            1




            1




            USB does work through much longer cables than 2 meters in practice. And 1 ms is a long enough time that you could go hundreds of kilometers before failing that (but there are other, stricter timing limits IIRC).
            – jpa
            Sep 8 at 6:44




            USB does work through much longer cables than 2 meters in practice. And 1 ms is a long enough time that you could go hundreds of kilometers before failing that (but there are other, stricter timing limits IIRC).
            – jpa
            Sep 8 at 6:44












            @jpa. You obviously have not read the USB standards and assume a great deal, and you are wrong. A 4 meter USB cable is not guaranteed to work at full speed (480 mbps).
            – Sparky256
            Sep 8 at 7:38




            @jpa. You obviously have not read the USB standards and assume a great deal, and you are wrong. A 4 meter USB cable is not guaranteed to work at full speed (480 mbps).
            – Sparky256
            Sep 8 at 7:38












            If you want to keep downvoting this answer at least be an adult and explain why.
            – Sparky256
            Sep 8 at 23:14




            If you want to keep downvoting this answer at least be an adult and explain why.
            – Sparky256
            Sep 8 at 23:14




            1




            1




            The problem isn't latency or delay (allowed up to 1 ms -- why does your answer measure time in Siemens?) The problem is the effect of the capacitance on rise and fall times, fractions of a nanosecond matter.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 14:51





            The problem isn't latency or delay (allowed up to 1 ms -- why does your answer measure time in Siemens?) The problem is the effect of the capacitance on rise and fall times, fractions of a nanosecond matter.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 14:51













            @BenVoigt. I fixed the "Siemens" typo but did not elaborate on cable capacitance, as the OP's question was about long distance power transfer for charging.
            – Sparky256
            Sep 9 at 19:10




            @BenVoigt. I fixed the "Siemens" typo but did not elaborate on cable capacitance, as the OP's question was about long distance power transfer for charging.
            – Sparky256
            Sep 9 at 19:10










            up vote
            0
            down vote














            Why doesn't a boost converter help overcome USB cable resistance?



            I ran a long USB extension cable from my PC to a WiFi adapter.




            Note that not all PC USB ports are specced to deliver a full 2A or special charging voltages over USB. In data mode, the highest(usb 3.x) current specified is 900mA. I use Rampage Extreme motherboards, which are relatively top of the line for a desktop, and even on these a few extra steps have to be taken to enable it's full USB function. Even with this function enabled, note that USB port power is likely ganged together onto rails, in which case spreading high power usb devices across rails may be necessary. It's probably not a bad idea to measure the resistance of your cable and make sure that your voltage drop can be accounted for. If you're losing 2v at 300mA, you should have about 6.66 ohms.




            The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect.




            This is probably the best place to attack the problem. Use better (larger power wire) cable, possibly make your own. If you really want premade, shielding would help, and for store bought cable, a single cable of a given length is more likely to have lower impedance than 2 or more connected in series, because it was intended to be that length. Your cable has already been cut, so you can guess at how much this will help by splicing larger wires in parallel to the power wires.



            You appear to be trying to use existing equipment, either to save money or to use in combination with something like a laptop with limited port selection.



            If you'd like to save money and you don't mind a solder/heatshrink/electrical tape solution, this is probably cheapest, especially if you can get some cheap larger guage wire to test with, as parasitic inductance and capacitance on data lines will likely be the limiting factor and determine whether you need an inline signal boost.



            The maximum power a wire can transfer at a given voltage occurs when voltage drop accounts for half of original voltage, as mentioned by Ben Voigt, if you're losing 2V, you're operating close to this limit already.



            If simply using a better cable is not good enough, or the size of wire you'll need to reduce volt drop to say 10% is larger than you want, you may be able to convert to a higher voltage at the start of the cable and back to 5V at the other end of the cable to reduce losses, but bear in mind that you will use power in both voltage conversions.



            For example: If you find a 24v to 5v buck converter that is 95% efficient when operating at 24v in and 300mA out, it will need 66mA in at 24v. If your cable resistance stays roughly at 6.66 ohms, your volt drop will be 0.43v, only 1.8% instead of 40%. If you can find a 5v to 24v boost converter that is 95% efficient at 5V in and 66mA out, you will only be drawing 340mA at 5V and have a solid 5V output. Total end to end loss is reduced to 12% instead of 40%. This is how voltage conversion to reduce line loss works. It is crucial to take efficiency at intended load into account. If both voltage converters are 90% efficient instead of 95% efficent, end loss increases to 20%, still better than the original, but far from ideal. Look at these from a converter manufacturer I'm familiar with:



            Murata P78A efficiency over load



            These are from the same datasheet and marked "efficiency up to 91%" in product information, but as you can see, if you have 24V input and 5V out, your efficiency maxes out at 85%. It appears they've used different switching methods for the two output voltage versions. The first one I'm guessing is pulse frequency driven, so switching time compared to on time for a pulse remains the same across the load spectrum and at very low currents decrease in conduction losses appears to allow increased efficiency. The 5vdc version appears to be using PWM type switching, which increases losses as load decreases because the switching time remains the same as on time decreases. Both converters also suffer higher losses at higher output voltages for this reason. The higher the voltage, the more ON time must decrease while switching speed stays the same and the more resistive losses there will be on the primary side of the circuit. I'm just speculating on the nature of these converters based on their efficiency curves, but the point is, you have to take this step to confirm the efficiency at the intended worst case load and input voltage for that specific device. If you were using the 5VDC converter in the right hand graph, you'd be operating at 70% or worse efficiency. You might still have your 5V output, but you'd be drawing 628mA @5V on one end of the cable to give yourself 300mA @5V on the other end, and your overall efficency would only be 47.8%, worse than the efficiency of the original volt drop problem. Note that even in this case, actual line loss is only using 2.5% of the power. The higher transmission voltage is still helping, just the conversion losses dominate.



            You can see that the device doesn't just have to correct voltage, but also efficiency loss as well, especially because as a design principle, if you make such a device it should follow the rules for usb loads itself, draw no more than 500mA for USB 2 and 900mA for USB 3. This means if you can find 5V->24V->5V voltage converters that are about 95% efficient at the right load levels and you use a 6.5 ohm cable, you can output about 438mA max with an input of 500mA at 5V.




            To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



            I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)




            Edit: the following paragraph was not appreciated on principle, so I've added some clarification rather than removing it, because while this paragraph states that the method may be possible, as it is with a voltage stabilizer, it is meant to dissuade from incorrect application in an informative way. Because OP is so close to the hard limit of power the cable can carry at 5V, it will not be possible to use just an inline boost converter.



            Well, it was worth a shot, and you still may be able to pull it off, however, show us specs for the boost converter you chose. Lots of switching converters' efficiencies decreases at lower loads, so at 300mA @ 5V @ .7 efficiency will require 2.14 VA, so 714mA at 3V(The USB output on the other end of the wires will still have to put out 714mA at 5V). One other thing to note is that a boost converter combined with an inadequate source will keep pulling more current at lower voltage(due to the line drop and load regulation of the source) to support it's output, so if load regulation is a problem in the first place, the boost converter will aggravate it.




            Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening?




            Yep, that sounds like a load regulation problem. The voltage source in your computer is just unable to output enough total power to support the actual load plus line losses(aggravated by the boost converter) plus the losses of the converter itself. You can think of the resistance of the USB cable as resistors on the output of the power supply, which is exactly what they are, and the more resistance, the worse load regulation will be, even if the power supply itself maintains full 5v output right up to it's cutoff point. Judging by brownout my keyboard sometimes causes at max brightness when on the same bus as another high power device, I suspect voltage can actually sag significantly before cutoff, and it can definitely support a significant near-short load (short circuit or shoot through from an aliexpress USB device was sufficient to melt plastic casing of the device before I disconnected it, and I suspect more than 10w were involved just from the speed of the incident).




            The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low.




            All wires in a house are (if installed correctly) adequately sized and also current protected, and line voltage from the power company generally has good regulation, so giving a small voltage updoot would not be a big problem, however, normal practice for large voltage drops is to go to higher voltage and/or larger wire to reduce losses.



            The voltage regulator in question deals with a specific problem, inadequate voltage at destination, and these are used in locations where electrical networks are inadequate or equipment connected to them distorts the signal too much. or particularly clean power is needed. In order to do it's job, it uses power, increasing line losses on it's input lines.




            So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?




            The stabilizer is being used so much as a signal booster and as an active filter. It has an adequate power source, or in cases where it doesn't, it will also be unable to maintain output. The root cause of the problem in some countries is inadequacy of the electrical network in the first place, which could include both the distribution lines and the sources, but in these cases, the AC stabilizers would basically increase the share of the total power that it's output received and use more power in the process. This means when the source is inadequate, that all of the lines with a stabilizer on them would be aggravating brownout on all of the lines without a stabilizer, same as a boost converter is aggravating the problem in your circuit.



            Thanks to Ben Voigt for useful usb info.






            share|improve this answer


















            • 1




              "you still may be able to pull it off" is wishful thinking. Even if the PC power supply were willing to provide infinite current to the USB port at 5V, you correctly noted that the boost converter will draw more input current than the output current it provides... and that input current will cause a larger IR drop in the long cable. The problem is not the source regulation, it's the cable resistance. The only way to get more power to the load is to boost the source voltage above 5V.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 8 at 22:01










            • @BenVoigt If he has 2A capable usb ports and just has to enable them, I actually suspect he'll be fine without even a boost converter. I answered based on the assumption that if OP wants he can confirm insufficient output and also that a long USB power option is being used because of an awkwardness of providing a signal boost from a 120v powered hub(Just using one rated for a full 2A output between the computer and the long usb cable should likely do the trick) or usb->cat6->usb if necessary.
              – K H
              Sep 9 at 0:15






            • 1




              If he were exceeding the current draw of the host, he'd have 0V at the device, not 3V. The symptoms indicate that OP's diagnosis of voltage drop in the cable is indeed correct. The only way to deal with resistive voltage drop is to increase the supply voltage. BTW, no USB host supplies 2A, the highest limit in the spec (and only available on USB 3.x) is 900mA. More than that is only available on a charge-only circuit, which may use the USB connector but is not USB compliant. But even assuming a charger circuit, the maximum power delivery to the load occurs for any given cable
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21






            • 1




              (continued) is when 50% of the voltage is resistively lost in the cable. With a load voltage of 3V, OP is already operating near that point.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21







            • 1




              Switching from bus powered to self-powered is definitely a good option. The problem with data lines for long runs isn't the IR voltage drop, it's slowed rise times and in general trouble meeting the eye diagram. Typically overcome using cables that have active buffers to regenerate the edges and keep them nice and sharp.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:47














            up vote
            0
            down vote














            Why doesn't a boost converter help overcome USB cable resistance?



            I ran a long USB extension cable from my PC to a WiFi adapter.




            Note that not all PC USB ports are specced to deliver a full 2A or special charging voltages over USB. In data mode, the highest(usb 3.x) current specified is 900mA. I use Rampage Extreme motherboards, which are relatively top of the line for a desktop, and even on these a few extra steps have to be taken to enable it's full USB function. Even with this function enabled, note that USB port power is likely ganged together onto rails, in which case spreading high power usb devices across rails may be necessary. It's probably not a bad idea to measure the resistance of your cable and make sure that your voltage drop can be accounted for. If you're losing 2v at 300mA, you should have about 6.66 ohms.




            The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect.




            This is probably the best place to attack the problem. Use better (larger power wire) cable, possibly make your own. If you really want premade, shielding would help, and for store bought cable, a single cable of a given length is more likely to have lower impedance than 2 or more connected in series, because it was intended to be that length. Your cable has already been cut, so you can guess at how much this will help by splicing larger wires in parallel to the power wires.



            You appear to be trying to use existing equipment, either to save money or to use in combination with something like a laptop with limited port selection.



            If you'd like to save money and you don't mind a solder/heatshrink/electrical tape solution, this is probably cheapest, especially if you can get some cheap larger guage wire to test with, as parasitic inductance and capacitance on data lines will likely be the limiting factor and determine whether you need an inline signal boost.



            The maximum power a wire can transfer at a given voltage occurs when voltage drop accounts for half of original voltage, as mentioned by Ben Voigt, if you're losing 2V, you're operating close to this limit already.



            If simply using a better cable is not good enough, or the size of wire you'll need to reduce volt drop to say 10% is larger than you want, you may be able to convert to a higher voltage at the start of the cable and back to 5V at the other end of the cable to reduce losses, but bear in mind that you will use power in both voltage conversions.



            For example: If you find a 24v to 5v buck converter that is 95% efficient when operating at 24v in and 300mA out, it will need 66mA in at 24v. If your cable resistance stays roughly at 6.66 ohms, your volt drop will be 0.43v, only 1.8% instead of 40%. If you can find a 5v to 24v boost converter that is 95% efficient at 5V in and 66mA out, you will only be drawing 340mA at 5V and have a solid 5V output. Total end to end loss is reduced to 12% instead of 40%. This is how voltage conversion to reduce line loss works. It is crucial to take efficiency at intended load into account. If both voltage converters are 90% efficient instead of 95% efficent, end loss increases to 20%, still better than the original, but far from ideal. Look at these from a converter manufacturer I'm familiar with:



            Murata P78A efficiency over load



            These are from the same datasheet and marked "efficiency up to 91%" in product information, but as you can see, if you have 24V input and 5V out, your efficiency maxes out at 85%. It appears they've used different switching methods for the two output voltage versions. The first one I'm guessing is pulse frequency driven, so switching time compared to on time for a pulse remains the same across the load spectrum and at very low currents decrease in conduction losses appears to allow increased efficiency. The 5vdc version appears to be using PWM type switching, which increases losses as load decreases because the switching time remains the same as on time decreases. Both converters also suffer higher losses at higher output voltages for this reason. The higher the voltage, the more ON time must decrease while switching speed stays the same and the more resistive losses there will be on the primary side of the circuit. I'm just speculating on the nature of these converters based on their efficiency curves, but the point is, you have to take this step to confirm the efficiency at the intended worst case load and input voltage for that specific device. If you were using the 5VDC converter in the right hand graph, you'd be operating at 70% or worse efficiency. You might still have your 5V output, but you'd be drawing 628mA @5V on one end of the cable to give yourself 300mA @5V on the other end, and your overall efficency would only be 47.8%, worse than the efficiency of the original volt drop problem. Note that even in this case, actual line loss is only using 2.5% of the power. The higher transmission voltage is still helping, just the conversion losses dominate.



            You can see that the device doesn't just have to correct voltage, but also efficiency loss as well, especially because as a design principle, if you make such a device it should follow the rules for usb loads itself, draw no more than 500mA for USB 2 and 900mA for USB 3. This means if you can find 5V->24V->5V voltage converters that are about 95% efficient at the right load levels and you use a 6.5 ohm cable, you can output about 438mA max with an input of 500mA at 5V.




            To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



            I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)




            Edit: the following paragraph was not appreciated on principle, so I've added some clarification rather than removing it, because while this paragraph states that the method may be possible, as it is with a voltage stabilizer, it is meant to dissuade from incorrect application in an informative way. Because OP is so close to the hard limit of power the cable can carry at 5V, it will not be possible to use just an inline boost converter.



            Well, it was worth a shot, and you still may be able to pull it off, however, show us specs for the boost converter you chose. Lots of switching converters' efficiencies decreases at lower loads, so at 300mA @ 5V @ .7 efficiency will require 2.14 VA, so 714mA at 3V(The USB output on the other end of the wires will still have to put out 714mA at 5V). One other thing to note is that a boost converter combined with an inadequate source will keep pulling more current at lower voltage(due to the line drop and load regulation of the source) to support it's output, so if load regulation is a problem in the first place, the boost converter will aggravate it.




            Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening?




            Yep, that sounds like a load regulation problem. The voltage source in your computer is just unable to output enough total power to support the actual load plus line losses(aggravated by the boost converter) plus the losses of the converter itself. You can think of the resistance of the USB cable as resistors on the output of the power supply, which is exactly what they are, and the more resistance, the worse load regulation will be, even if the power supply itself maintains full 5v output right up to it's cutoff point. Judging by brownout my keyboard sometimes causes at max brightness when on the same bus as another high power device, I suspect voltage can actually sag significantly before cutoff, and it can definitely support a significant near-short load (short circuit or shoot through from an aliexpress USB device was sufficient to melt plastic casing of the device before I disconnected it, and I suspect more than 10w were involved just from the speed of the incident).




            The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low.




            All wires in a house are (if installed correctly) adequately sized and also current protected, and line voltage from the power company generally has good regulation, so giving a small voltage updoot would not be a big problem, however, normal practice for large voltage drops is to go to higher voltage and/or larger wire to reduce losses.



            The voltage regulator in question deals with a specific problem, inadequate voltage at destination, and these are used in locations where electrical networks are inadequate or equipment connected to them distorts the signal too much. or particularly clean power is needed. In order to do it's job, it uses power, increasing line losses on it's input lines.




            So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?




            The stabilizer is being used so much as a signal booster and as an active filter. It has an adequate power source, or in cases where it doesn't, it will also be unable to maintain output. The root cause of the problem in some countries is inadequacy of the electrical network in the first place, which could include both the distribution lines and the sources, but in these cases, the AC stabilizers would basically increase the share of the total power that it's output received and use more power in the process. This means when the source is inadequate, that all of the lines with a stabilizer on them would be aggravating brownout on all of the lines without a stabilizer, same as a boost converter is aggravating the problem in your circuit.



            Thanks to Ben Voigt for useful usb info.






            share|improve this answer


















            • 1




              "you still may be able to pull it off" is wishful thinking. Even if the PC power supply were willing to provide infinite current to the USB port at 5V, you correctly noted that the boost converter will draw more input current than the output current it provides... and that input current will cause a larger IR drop in the long cable. The problem is not the source regulation, it's the cable resistance. The only way to get more power to the load is to boost the source voltage above 5V.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 8 at 22:01










            • @BenVoigt If he has 2A capable usb ports and just has to enable them, I actually suspect he'll be fine without even a boost converter. I answered based on the assumption that if OP wants he can confirm insufficient output and also that a long USB power option is being used because of an awkwardness of providing a signal boost from a 120v powered hub(Just using one rated for a full 2A output between the computer and the long usb cable should likely do the trick) or usb->cat6->usb if necessary.
              – K H
              Sep 9 at 0:15






            • 1




              If he were exceeding the current draw of the host, he'd have 0V at the device, not 3V. The symptoms indicate that OP's diagnosis of voltage drop in the cable is indeed correct. The only way to deal with resistive voltage drop is to increase the supply voltage. BTW, no USB host supplies 2A, the highest limit in the spec (and only available on USB 3.x) is 900mA. More than that is only available on a charge-only circuit, which may use the USB connector but is not USB compliant. But even assuming a charger circuit, the maximum power delivery to the load occurs for any given cable
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21






            • 1




              (continued) is when 50% of the voltage is resistively lost in the cable. With a load voltage of 3V, OP is already operating near that point.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21







            • 1




              Switching from bus powered to self-powered is definitely a good option. The problem with data lines for long runs isn't the IR voltage drop, it's slowed rise times and in general trouble meeting the eye diagram. Typically overcome using cables that have active buffers to regenerate the edges and keep them nice and sharp.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:47












            up vote
            0
            down vote










            up vote
            0
            down vote










            Why doesn't a boost converter help overcome USB cable resistance?



            I ran a long USB extension cable from my PC to a WiFi adapter.




            Note that not all PC USB ports are specced to deliver a full 2A or special charging voltages over USB. In data mode, the highest(usb 3.x) current specified is 900mA. I use Rampage Extreme motherboards, which are relatively top of the line for a desktop, and even on these a few extra steps have to be taken to enable it's full USB function. Even with this function enabled, note that USB port power is likely ganged together onto rails, in which case spreading high power usb devices across rails may be necessary. It's probably not a bad idea to measure the resistance of your cable and make sure that your voltage drop can be accounted for. If you're losing 2v at 300mA, you should have about 6.66 ohms.




            The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect.




            This is probably the best place to attack the problem. Use better (larger power wire) cable, possibly make your own. If you really want premade, shielding would help, and for store bought cable, a single cable of a given length is more likely to have lower impedance than 2 or more connected in series, because it was intended to be that length. Your cable has already been cut, so you can guess at how much this will help by splicing larger wires in parallel to the power wires.



            You appear to be trying to use existing equipment, either to save money or to use in combination with something like a laptop with limited port selection.



            If you'd like to save money and you don't mind a solder/heatshrink/electrical tape solution, this is probably cheapest, especially if you can get some cheap larger guage wire to test with, as parasitic inductance and capacitance on data lines will likely be the limiting factor and determine whether you need an inline signal boost.



            The maximum power a wire can transfer at a given voltage occurs when voltage drop accounts for half of original voltage, as mentioned by Ben Voigt, if you're losing 2V, you're operating close to this limit already.



            If simply using a better cable is not good enough, or the size of wire you'll need to reduce volt drop to say 10% is larger than you want, you may be able to convert to a higher voltage at the start of the cable and back to 5V at the other end of the cable to reduce losses, but bear in mind that you will use power in both voltage conversions.



            For example: If you find a 24v to 5v buck converter that is 95% efficient when operating at 24v in and 300mA out, it will need 66mA in at 24v. If your cable resistance stays roughly at 6.66 ohms, your volt drop will be 0.43v, only 1.8% instead of 40%. If you can find a 5v to 24v boost converter that is 95% efficient at 5V in and 66mA out, you will only be drawing 340mA at 5V and have a solid 5V output. Total end to end loss is reduced to 12% instead of 40%. This is how voltage conversion to reduce line loss works. It is crucial to take efficiency at intended load into account. If both voltage converters are 90% efficient instead of 95% efficent, end loss increases to 20%, still better than the original, but far from ideal. Look at these from a converter manufacturer I'm familiar with:



            Murata P78A efficiency over load



            These are from the same datasheet and marked "efficiency up to 91%" in product information, but as you can see, if you have 24V input and 5V out, your efficiency maxes out at 85%. It appears they've used different switching methods for the two output voltage versions. The first one I'm guessing is pulse frequency driven, so switching time compared to on time for a pulse remains the same across the load spectrum and at very low currents decrease in conduction losses appears to allow increased efficiency. The 5vdc version appears to be using PWM type switching, which increases losses as load decreases because the switching time remains the same as on time decreases. Both converters also suffer higher losses at higher output voltages for this reason. The higher the voltage, the more ON time must decrease while switching speed stays the same and the more resistive losses there will be on the primary side of the circuit. I'm just speculating on the nature of these converters based on their efficiency curves, but the point is, you have to take this step to confirm the efficiency at the intended worst case load and input voltage for that specific device. If you were using the 5VDC converter in the right hand graph, you'd be operating at 70% or worse efficiency. You might still have your 5V output, but you'd be drawing 628mA @5V on one end of the cable to give yourself 300mA @5V on the other end, and your overall efficency would only be 47.8%, worse than the efficiency of the original volt drop problem. Note that even in this case, actual line loss is only using 2.5% of the power. The higher transmission voltage is still helping, just the conversion losses dominate.



            You can see that the device doesn't just have to correct voltage, but also efficiency loss as well, especially because as a design principle, if you make such a device it should follow the rules for usb loads itself, draw no more than 500mA for USB 2 and 900mA for USB 3. This means if you can find 5V->24V->5V voltage converters that are about 95% efficient at the right load levels and you use a 6.5 ohm cable, you can output about 438mA max with an input of 500mA at 5V.




            To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



            I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)




            Edit: the following paragraph was not appreciated on principle, so I've added some clarification rather than removing it, because while this paragraph states that the method may be possible, as it is with a voltage stabilizer, it is meant to dissuade from incorrect application in an informative way. Because OP is so close to the hard limit of power the cable can carry at 5V, it will not be possible to use just an inline boost converter.



            Well, it was worth a shot, and you still may be able to pull it off, however, show us specs for the boost converter you chose. Lots of switching converters' efficiencies decreases at lower loads, so at 300mA @ 5V @ .7 efficiency will require 2.14 VA, so 714mA at 3V(The USB output on the other end of the wires will still have to put out 714mA at 5V). One other thing to note is that a boost converter combined with an inadequate source will keep pulling more current at lower voltage(due to the line drop and load regulation of the source) to support it's output, so if load regulation is a problem in the first place, the boost converter will aggravate it.




            Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening?




            Yep, that sounds like a load regulation problem. The voltage source in your computer is just unable to output enough total power to support the actual load plus line losses(aggravated by the boost converter) plus the losses of the converter itself. You can think of the resistance of the USB cable as resistors on the output of the power supply, which is exactly what they are, and the more resistance, the worse load regulation will be, even if the power supply itself maintains full 5v output right up to it's cutoff point. Judging by brownout my keyboard sometimes causes at max brightness when on the same bus as another high power device, I suspect voltage can actually sag significantly before cutoff, and it can definitely support a significant near-short load (short circuit or shoot through from an aliexpress USB device was sufficient to melt plastic casing of the device before I disconnected it, and I suspect more than 10w were involved just from the speed of the incident).




            The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low.




            All wires in a house are (if installed correctly) adequately sized and also current protected, and line voltage from the power company generally has good regulation, so giving a small voltage updoot would not be a big problem, however, normal practice for large voltage drops is to go to higher voltage and/or larger wire to reduce losses.



            The voltage regulator in question deals with a specific problem, inadequate voltage at destination, and these are used in locations where electrical networks are inadequate or equipment connected to them distorts the signal too much. or particularly clean power is needed. In order to do it's job, it uses power, increasing line losses on it's input lines.




            So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?




            The stabilizer is being used so much as a signal booster and as an active filter. It has an adequate power source, or in cases where it doesn't, it will also be unable to maintain output. The root cause of the problem in some countries is inadequacy of the electrical network in the first place, which could include both the distribution lines and the sources, but in these cases, the AC stabilizers would basically increase the share of the total power that it's output received and use more power in the process. This means when the source is inadequate, that all of the lines with a stabilizer on them would be aggravating brownout on all of the lines without a stabilizer, same as a boost converter is aggravating the problem in your circuit.



            Thanks to Ben Voigt for useful usb info.






            share|improve this answer















            Why doesn't a boost converter help overcome USB cable resistance?



            I ran a long USB extension cable from my PC to a WiFi adapter.




            Note that not all PC USB ports are specced to deliver a full 2A or special charging voltages over USB. In data mode, the highest(usb 3.x) current specified is 900mA. I use Rampage Extreme motherboards, which are relatively top of the line for a desktop, and even on these a few extra steps have to be taken to enable it's full USB function. Even with this function enabled, note that USB port power is likely ganged together onto rails, in which case spreading high power usb devices across rails may be necessary. It's probably not a bad idea to measure the resistance of your cable and make sure that your voltage drop can be accounted for. If you're losing 2v at 300mA, you should have about 6.66 ohms.




            The cable was too long and the gauge was too thin. So the resistance made the voltage drop to ~3V under load, making the WiFi adapter disconnect.




            This is probably the best place to attack the problem. Use better (larger power wire) cable, possibly make your own. If you really want premade, shielding would help, and for store bought cable, a single cable of a given length is more likely to have lower impedance than 2 or more connected in series, because it was intended to be that length. Your cable has already been cut, so you can guess at how much this will help by splicing larger wires in parallel to the power wires.



            You appear to be trying to use existing equipment, either to save money or to use in combination with something like a laptop with limited port selection.



            If you'd like to save money and you don't mind a solder/heatshrink/electrical tape solution, this is probably cheapest, especially if you can get some cheap larger guage wire to test with, as parasitic inductance and capacitance on data lines will likely be the limiting factor and determine whether you need an inline signal boost.



            The maximum power a wire can transfer at a given voltage occurs when voltage drop accounts for half of original voltage, as mentioned by Ben Voigt, if you're losing 2V, you're operating close to this limit already.



            If simply using a better cable is not good enough, or the size of wire you'll need to reduce volt drop to say 10% is larger than you want, you may be able to convert to a higher voltage at the start of the cable and back to 5V at the other end of the cable to reduce losses, but bear in mind that you will use power in both voltage conversions.



            For example: If you find a 24v to 5v buck converter that is 95% efficient when operating at 24v in and 300mA out, it will need 66mA in at 24v. If your cable resistance stays roughly at 6.66 ohms, your volt drop will be 0.43v, only 1.8% instead of 40%. If you can find a 5v to 24v boost converter that is 95% efficient at 5V in and 66mA out, you will only be drawing 340mA at 5V and have a solid 5V output. Total end to end loss is reduced to 12% instead of 40%. This is how voltage conversion to reduce line loss works. It is crucial to take efficiency at intended load into account. If both voltage converters are 90% efficient instead of 95% efficent, end loss increases to 20%, still better than the original, but far from ideal. Look at these from a converter manufacturer I'm familiar with:



            Murata P78A efficiency over load



            These are from the same datasheet and marked "efficiency up to 91%" in product information, but as you can see, if you have 24V input and 5V out, your efficiency maxes out at 85%. It appears they've used different switching methods for the two output voltage versions. The first one I'm guessing is pulse frequency driven, so switching time compared to on time for a pulse remains the same across the load spectrum and at very low currents decrease in conduction losses appears to allow increased efficiency. The 5vdc version appears to be using PWM type switching, which increases losses as load decreases because the switching time remains the same as on time decreases. Both converters also suffer higher losses at higher output voltages for this reason. The higher the voltage, the more ON time must decrease while switching speed stays the same and the more resistive losses there will be on the primary side of the circuit. I'm just speculating on the nature of these converters based on their efficiency curves, but the point is, you have to take this step to confirm the efficiency at the intended worst case load and input voltage for that specific device. If you were using the 5VDC converter in the right hand graph, you'd be operating at 70% or worse efficiency. You might still have your 5V output, but you'd be drawing 628mA @5V on one end of the cable to give yourself 300mA @5V on the other end, and your overall efficency would only be 47.8%, worse than the efficiency of the original volt drop problem. Note that even in this case, actual line loss is only using 2.5% of the power. The higher transmission voltage is still helping, just the conversion losses dominate.



            You can see that the device doesn't just have to correct voltage, but also efficiency loss as well, especially because as a design principle, if you make such a device it should follow the rules for usb loads itself, draw no more than 500mA for USB 2 and 900mA for USB 3. This means if you can find 5V->24V->5V voltage converters that are about 95% efficient at the right load levels and you use a 6.5 ohm cable, you can output about 438mA max with an input of 500mA at 5V.




            To overcome the voltage drop, I devised this:



            I snapped the USB extension cord's power cables (the data cables were kept intact) and ran them through a 0.9-4.5 to 5V boost converter capable of handling 1 Amp at input (the WiFi adapter takes 300mAmp max at 5V as measured by USB doctor.)




            Edit: the following paragraph was not appreciated on principle, so I've added some clarification rather than removing it, because while this paragraph states that the method may be possible, as it is with a voltage stabilizer, it is meant to dissuade from incorrect application in an informative way. Because OP is so close to the hard limit of power the cable can carry at 5V, it will not be possible to use just an inline boost converter.



            Well, it was worth a shot, and you still may be able to pull it off, however, show us specs for the boost converter you chose. Lots of switching converters' efficiencies decreases at lower loads, so at 300mA @ 5V @ .7 efficiency will require 2.14 VA, so 714mA at 3V(The USB output on the other end of the wires will still have to put out 714mA at 5V). One other thing to note is that a boost converter combined with an inadequate source will keep pulling more current at lower voltage(due to the line drop and load regulation of the source) to support it's output, so if load regulation is a problem in the first place, the boost converter will aggravate it.




            Now one would think that this setup would work. Kind of like voltage stabilizers that step up low.voltages of household. But it didn't work. I can't find out why. Whenever the WiFi adapter kicks in, the input voltage drops to 1.5V and the booster can't keep up with the power demand. Why is this happening?




            Yep, that sounds like a load regulation problem. The voltage source in your computer is just unable to output enough total power to support the actual load plus line losses(aggravated by the boost converter) plus the losses of the converter itself. You can think of the resistance of the USB cable as resistors on the output of the power supply, which is exactly what they are, and the more resistance, the worse load regulation will be, even if the power supply itself maintains full 5v output right up to it's cutoff point. Judging by brownout my keyboard sometimes causes at max brightness when on the same bus as another high power device, I suspect voltage can actually sag significantly before cutoff, and it can definitely support a significant near-short load (short circuit or shoot through from an aliexpress USB device was sufficient to melt plastic casing of the device before I disconnected it, and I suspect more than 10w were involved just from the speed of the incident).




            The same principle is used for stabilizers of households where the voltage is low.




            All wires in a house are (if installed correctly) adequately sized and also current protected, and line voltage from the power company generally has good regulation, so giving a small voltage updoot would not be a big problem, however, normal practice for large voltage drops is to go to higher voltage and/or larger wire to reduce losses.



            The voltage regulator in question deals with a specific problem, inadequate voltage at destination, and these are used in locations where electrical networks are inadequate or equipment connected to them distorts the signal too much. or particularly clean power is needed. In order to do it's job, it uses power, increasing line losses on it's input lines.




            So why don't stabilizers trip like this USB booster is doing?




            The stabilizer is being used so much as a signal booster and as an active filter. It has an adequate power source, or in cases where it doesn't, it will also be unable to maintain output. The root cause of the problem in some countries is inadequacy of the electrical network in the first place, which could include both the distribution lines and the sources, but in these cases, the AC stabilizers would basically increase the share of the total power that it's output received and use more power in the process. This means when the source is inadequate, that all of the lines with a stabilizer on them would be aggravating brownout on all of the lines without a stabilizer, same as a boost converter is aggravating the problem in your circuit.



            Thanks to Ben Voigt for useful usb info.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Sep 10 at 5:41

























            answered Sep 8 at 2:13









            K H

            1,240112




            1,240112







            • 1




              "you still may be able to pull it off" is wishful thinking. Even if the PC power supply were willing to provide infinite current to the USB port at 5V, you correctly noted that the boost converter will draw more input current than the output current it provides... and that input current will cause a larger IR drop in the long cable. The problem is not the source regulation, it's the cable resistance. The only way to get more power to the load is to boost the source voltage above 5V.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 8 at 22:01










            • @BenVoigt If he has 2A capable usb ports and just has to enable them, I actually suspect he'll be fine without even a boost converter. I answered based on the assumption that if OP wants he can confirm insufficient output and also that a long USB power option is being used because of an awkwardness of providing a signal boost from a 120v powered hub(Just using one rated for a full 2A output between the computer and the long usb cable should likely do the trick) or usb->cat6->usb if necessary.
              – K H
              Sep 9 at 0:15






            • 1




              If he were exceeding the current draw of the host, he'd have 0V at the device, not 3V. The symptoms indicate that OP's diagnosis of voltage drop in the cable is indeed correct. The only way to deal with resistive voltage drop is to increase the supply voltage. BTW, no USB host supplies 2A, the highest limit in the spec (and only available on USB 3.x) is 900mA. More than that is only available on a charge-only circuit, which may use the USB connector but is not USB compliant. But even assuming a charger circuit, the maximum power delivery to the load occurs for any given cable
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21






            • 1




              (continued) is when 50% of the voltage is resistively lost in the cable. With a load voltage of 3V, OP is already operating near that point.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21







            • 1




              Switching from bus powered to self-powered is definitely a good option. The problem with data lines for long runs isn't the IR voltage drop, it's slowed rise times and in general trouble meeting the eye diagram. Typically overcome using cables that have active buffers to regenerate the edges and keep them nice and sharp.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:47












            • 1




              "you still may be able to pull it off" is wishful thinking. Even if the PC power supply were willing to provide infinite current to the USB port at 5V, you correctly noted that the boost converter will draw more input current than the output current it provides... and that input current will cause a larger IR drop in the long cable. The problem is not the source regulation, it's the cable resistance. The only way to get more power to the load is to boost the source voltage above 5V.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 8 at 22:01










            • @BenVoigt If he has 2A capable usb ports and just has to enable them, I actually suspect he'll be fine without even a boost converter. I answered based on the assumption that if OP wants he can confirm insufficient output and also that a long USB power option is being used because of an awkwardness of providing a signal boost from a 120v powered hub(Just using one rated for a full 2A output between the computer and the long usb cable should likely do the trick) or usb->cat6->usb if necessary.
              – K H
              Sep 9 at 0:15






            • 1




              If he were exceeding the current draw of the host, he'd have 0V at the device, not 3V. The symptoms indicate that OP's diagnosis of voltage drop in the cable is indeed correct. The only way to deal with resistive voltage drop is to increase the supply voltage. BTW, no USB host supplies 2A, the highest limit in the spec (and only available on USB 3.x) is 900mA. More than that is only available on a charge-only circuit, which may use the USB connector but is not USB compliant. But even assuming a charger circuit, the maximum power delivery to the load occurs for any given cable
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21






            • 1




              (continued) is when 50% of the voltage is resistively lost in the cable. With a load voltage of 3V, OP is already operating near that point.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 1:21







            • 1




              Switching from bus powered to self-powered is definitely a good option. The problem with data lines for long runs isn't the IR voltage drop, it's slowed rise times and in general trouble meeting the eye diagram. Typically overcome using cables that have active buffers to regenerate the edges and keep them nice and sharp.
              – Ben Voigt
              Sep 9 at 14:47







            1




            1




            "you still may be able to pull it off" is wishful thinking. Even if the PC power supply were willing to provide infinite current to the USB port at 5V, you correctly noted that the boost converter will draw more input current than the output current it provides... and that input current will cause a larger IR drop in the long cable. The problem is not the source regulation, it's the cable resistance. The only way to get more power to the load is to boost the source voltage above 5V.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 8 at 22:01




            "you still may be able to pull it off" is wishful thinking. Even if the PC power supply were willing to provide infinite current to the USB port at 5V, you correctly noted that the boost converter will draw more input current than the output current it provides... and that input current will cause a larger IR drop in the long cable. The problem is not the source regulation, it's the cable resistance. The only way to get more power to the load is to boost the source voltage above 5V.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 8 at 22:01












            @BenVoigt If he has 2A capable usb ports and just has to enable them, I actually suspect he'll be fine without even a boost converter. I answered based on the assumption that if OP wants he can confirm insufficient output and also that a long USB power option is being used because of an awkwardness of providing a signal boost from a 120v powered hub(Just using one rated for a full 2A output between the computer and the long usb cable should likely do the trick) or usb->cat6->usb if necessary.
            – K H
            Sep 9 at 0:15




            @BenVoigt If he has 2A capable usb ports and just has to enable them, I actually suspect he'll be fine without even a boost converter. I answered based on the assumption that if OP wants he can confirm insufficient output and also that a long USB power option is being used because of an awkwardness of providing a signal boost from a 120v powered hub(Just using one rated for a full 2A output between the computer and the long usb cable should likely do the trick) or usb->cat6->usb if necessary.
            – K H
            Sep 9 at 0:15




            1




            1




            If he were exceeding the current draw of the host, he'd have 0V at the device, not 3V. The symptoms indicate that OP's diagnosis of voltage drop in the cable is indeed correct. The only way to deal with resistive voltage drop is to increase the supply voltage. BTW, no USB host supplies 2A, the highest limit in the spec (and only available on USB 3.x) is 900mA. More than that is only available on a charge-only circuit, which may use the USB connector but is not USB compliant. But even assuming a charger circuit, the maximum power delivery to the load occurs for any given cable
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 1:21




            If he were exceeding the current draw of the host, he'd have 0V at the device, not 3V. The symptoms indicate that OP's diagnosis of voltage drop in the cable is indeed correct. The only way to deal with resistive voltage drop is to increase the supply voltage. BTW, no USB host supplies 2A, the highest limit in the spec (and only available on USB 3.x) is 900mA. More than that is only available on a charge-only circuit, which may use the USB connector but is not USB compliant. But even assuming a charger circuit, the maximum power delivery to the load occurs for any given cable
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 1:21




            1




            1




            (continued) is when 50% of the voltage is resistively lost in the cable. With a load voltage of 3V, OP is already operating near that point.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 1:21





            (continued) is when 50% of the voltage is resistively lost in the cable. With a load voltage of 3V, OP is already operating near that point.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 1:21





            1




            1




            Switching from bus powered to self-powered is definitely a good option. The problem with data lines for long runs isn't the IR voltage drop, it's slowed rise times and in general trouble meeting the eye diagram. Typically overcome using cables that have active buffers to regenerate the edges and keep them nice and sharp.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 14:47




            Switching from bus powered to self-powered is definitely a good option. The problem with data lines for long runs isn't the IR voltage drop, it's slowed rise times and in general trouble meeting the eye diagram. Typically overcome using cables that have active buffers to regenerate the edges and keep them nice and sharp.
            – Ben Voigt
            Sep 9 at 14:47

















             

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