Can neural cryptanalysis be applied to AES?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
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In this Wikipedia article about Neural cryptography (section applications) it states:
In 1995, Sebastien Dourlens applied neural networks to cryptanalyze DES by allowing the networks to learn how to invert the S-tables of the DES. The bias in DES studied through Differential Cryptanalysis by Adi Shamir is highlighted. The experiment shows about 50% of the key bits can be found, allowing the complete key to be found in a short time.
It could very well be that I misunderstood something, but I think that the same "attack" can't be used for AES, since the Inverse Rijndael S-box is public knowledge or am I wrong? Is AES designed this way to prevent an attack by inverting the S-box?
aes cryptanalysis des rijndael
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
In this Wikipedia article about Neural cryptography (section applications) it states:
In 1995, Sebastien Dourlens applied neural networks to cryptanalyze DES by allowing the networks to learn how to invert the S-tables of the DES. The bias in DES studied through Differential Cryptanalysis by Adi Shamir is highlighted. The experiment shows about 50% of the key bits can be found, allowing the complete key to be found in a short time.
It could very well be that I misunderstood something, but I think that the same "attack" can't be used for AES, since the Inverse Rijndael S-box is public knowledge or am I wrong? Is AES designed this way to prevent an attack by inverting the S-box?
aes cryptanalysis des rijndael
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
$endgroup$
1
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The inverse S-box is useless if you don't have the key.
$endgroup$
– forest
Feb 18 at 12:36
2
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Any practical uses for machine learning for cryptography?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
Feb 18 at 15:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In this Wikipedia article about Neural cryptography (section applications) it states:
In 1995, Sebastien Dourlens applied neural networks to cryptanalyze DES by allowing the networks to learn how to invert the S-tables of the DES. The bias in DES studied through Differential Cryptanalysis by Adi Shamir is highlighted. The experiment shows about 50% of the key bits can be found, allowing the complete key to be found in a short time.
It could very well be that I misunderstood something, but I think that the same "attack" can't be used for AES, since the Inverse Rijndael S-box is public knowledge or am I wrong? Is AES designed this way to prevent an attack by inverting the S-box?
aes cryptanalysis des rijndael
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
$endgroup$
In this Wikipedia article about Neural cryptography (section applications) it states:
In 1995, Sebastien Dourlens applied neural networks to cryptanalyze DES by allowing the networks to learn how to invert the S-tables of the DES. The bias in DES studied through Differential Cryptanalysis by Adi Shamir is highlighted. The experiment shows about 50% of the key bits can be found, allowing the complete key to be found in a short time.
It could very well be that I misunderstood something, but I think that the same "attack" can't be used for AES, since the Inverse Rijndael S-box is public knowledge or am I wrong? Is AES designed this way to prevent an attack by inverting the S-box?
aes cryptanalysis des rijndael
aes cryptanalysis des rijndael
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
asked Feb 18 at 12:34
AleksanderRasAleksanderRas
2,7571834
2,7571834
1
$begingroup$
The inverse S-box is useless if you don't have the key.
$endgroup$
– forest
Feb 18 at 12:36
2
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Any practical uses for machine learning for cryptography?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
Feb 18 at 15:22
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
The inverse S-box is useless if you don't have the key.
$endgroup$
– forest
Feb 18 at 12:36
2
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Any practical uses for machine learning for cryptography?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
Feb 18 at 15:22
1
1
$begingroup$
The inverse S-box is useless if you don't have the key.
$endgroup$
– forest
Feb 18 at 12:36
$begingroup$
The inverse S-box is useless if you don't have the key.
$endgroup$
– forest
Feb 18 at 12:36
2
2
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Any practical uses for machine learning for cryptography?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
Feb 18 at 15:22
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Any practical uses for machine learning for cryptography?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
Feb 18 at 15:22
add a comment |
1 Answer
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No. Neuro-Cryptanalysis fails on serious ciphers, including DES and AES.
Sebastien Dourlens's Neuro-differential cryptanalysis of DES (in sections 5.4.2 and 5.4.3 of his 1996 mémoire) learns an S-box. Applied to Unix crypt (section 5.4.4), it memorizes passwords/hash pairs (by a training requiring "from several days to several years") and then merely performs a quick retrieval; something a hash table does routinely and quickly! Neither is relevant to cryptanalysis.
Mohammed M. Alani's Neuro-Cryptanalysis of DES and Triple-DES (in proceedings of ICONIP 2012) claims cryptanalysis of DES or 3DES from 2048 or 4096 examples in an hour of Matlab on a standard PC; but there is no indication that it recovers the key or is otherwise capable of predicting more input/output mappings than supplied in training (even though the later is a stated objective). My guess is that - at best - it performs similar plaintext/ciphertext memorization thru training.
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
$endgroup$
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I think its important to note, that Neuro-Cryptanalysis has failed so far on serious ciphers.
$endgroup$
– Dylan
Feb 19 at 16:35
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@Dylan: Neuro-Cryptanalysis as in these papers (thus as in the question) examines the cipher as a black box, without a description of its internals. That's dooms such Neuro-Cryptanalysis, putting it at a tremendous disadvantage compared to traditional cryptanalysis, and automated cryptanalysis crunching a description of the cipher (e.g. encoded as a satisfiability problem).
$endgroup$
– fgrieu
Feb 19 at 18:00
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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No. Neuro-Cryptanalysis fails on serious ciphers, including DES and AES.
Sebastien Dourlens's Neuro-differential cryptanalysis of DES (in sections 5.4.2 and 5.4.3 of his 1996 mémoire) learns an S-box. Applied to Unix crypt (section 5.4.4), it memorizes passwords/hash pairs (by a training requiring "from several days to several years") and then merely performs a quick retrieval; something a hash table does routinely and quickly! Neither is relevant to cryptanalysis.
Mohammed M. Alani's Neuro-Cryptanalysis of DES and Triple-DES (in proceedings of ICONIP 2012) claims cryptanalysis of DES or 3DES from 2048 or 4096 examples in an hour of Matlab on a standard PC; but there is no indication that it recovers the key or is otherwise capable of predicting more input/output mappings than supplied in training (even though the later is a stated objective). My guess is that - at best - it performs similar plaintext/ciphertext memorization thru training.
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I think its important to note, that Neuro-Cryptanalysis has failed so far on serious ciphers.
$endgroup$
– Dylan
Feb 19 at 16:35
$begingroup$
@Dylan: Neuro-Cryptanalysis as in these papers (thus as in the question) examines the cipher as a black box, without a description of its internals. That's dooms such Neuro-Cryptanalysis, putting it at a tremendous disadvantage compared to traditional cryptanalysis, and automated cryptanalysis crunching a description of the cipher (e.g. encoded as a satisfiability problem).
$endgroup$
– fgrieu
Feb 19 at 18:00
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No. Neuro-Cryptanalysis fails on serious ciphers, including DES and AES.
Sebastien Dourlens's Neuro-differential cryptanalysis of DES (in sections 5.4.2 and 5.4.3 of his 1996 mémoire) learns an S-box. Applied to Unix crypt (section 5.4.4), it memorizes passwords/hash pairs (by a training requiring "from several days to several years") and then merely performs a quick retrieval; something a hash table does routinely and quickly! Neither is relevant to cryptanalysis.
Mohammed M. Alani's Neuro-Cryptanalysis of DES and Triple-DES (in proceedings of ICONIP 2012) claims cryptanalysis of DES or 3DES from 2048 or 4096 examples in an hour of Matlab on a standard PC; but there is no indication that it recovers the key or is otherwise capable of predicting more input/output mappings than supplied in training (even though the later is a stated objective). My guess is that - at best - it performs similar plaintext/ciphertext memorization thru training.
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I think its important to note, that Neuro-Cryptanalysis has failed so far on serious ciphers.
$endgroup$
– Dylan
Feb 19 at 16:35
$begingroup$
@Dylan: Neuro-Cryptanalysis as in these papers (thus as in the question) examines the cipher as a black box, without a description of its internals. That's dooms such Neuro-Cryptanalysis, putting it at a tremendous disadvantage compared to traditional cryptanalysis, and automated cryptanalysis crunching a description of the cipher (e.g. encoded as a satisfiability problem).
$endgroup$
– fgrieu
Feb 19 at 18:00
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No. Neuro-Cryptanalysis fails on serious ciphers, including DES and AES.
Sebastien Dourlens's Neuro-differential cryptanalysis of DES (in sections 5.4.2 and 5.4.3 of his 1996 mémoire) learns an S-box. Applied to Unix crypt (section 5.4.4), it memorizes passwords/hash pairs (by a training requiring "from several days to several years") and then merely performs a quick retrieval; something a hash table does routinely and quickly! Neither is relevant to cryptanalysis.
Mohammed M. Alani's Neuro-Cryptanalysis of DES and Triple-DES (in proceedings of ICONIP 2012) claims cryptanalysis of DES or 3DES from 2048 or 4096 examples in an hour of Matlab on a standard PC; but there is no indication that it recovers the key or is otherwise capable of predicting more input/output mappings than supplied in training (even though the later is a stated objective). My guess is that - at best - it performs similar plaintext/ciphertext memorization thru training.
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
$endgroup$
No. Neuro-Cryptanalysis fails on serious ciphers, including DES and AES.
Sebastien Dourlens's Neuro-differential cryptanalysis of DES (in sections 5.4.2 and 5.4.3 of his 1996 mémoire) learns an S-box. Applied to Unix crypt (section 5.4.4), it memorizes passwords/hash pairs (by a training requiring "from several days to several years") and then merely performs a quick retrieval; something a hash table does routinely and quickly! Neither is relevant to cryptanalysis.
Mohammed M. Alani's Neuro-Cryptanalysis of DES and Triple-DES (in proceedings of ICONIP 2012) claims cryptanalysis of DES or 3DES from 2048 or 4096 examples in an hour of Matlab on a standard PC; but there is no indication that it recovers the key or is otherwise capable of predicting more input/output mappings than supplied in training (even though the later is a stated objective). My guess is that - at best - it performs similar plaintext/ciphertext memorization thru training.
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
edited Feb 18 at 14:04
Maarten Bodewes♦
55.3k679196
55.3k679196
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
answered Feb 18 at 13:42
fgrieufgrieu
81.4k7175346
81.4k7175346
$begingroup$
I think its important to note, that Neuro-Cryptanalysis has failed so far on serious ciphers.
$endgroup$
– Dylan
Feb 19 at 16:35
$begingroup$
@Dylan: Neuro-Cryptanalysis as in these papers (thus as in the question) examines the cipher as a black box, without a description of its internals. That's dooms such Neuro-Cryptanalysis, putting it at a tremendous disadvantage compared to traditional cryptanalysis, and automated cryptanalysis crunching a description of the cipher (e.g. encoded as a satisfiability problem).
$endgroup$
– fgrieu
Feb 19 at 18:00
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think its important to note, that Neuro-Cryptanalysis has failed so far on serious ciphers.
$endgroup$
– Dylan
Feb 19 at 16:35
$begingroup$
@Dylan: Neuro-Cryptanalysis as in these papers (thus as in the question) examines the cipher as a black box, without a description of its internals. That's dooms such Neuro-Cryptanalysis, putting it at a tremendous disadvantage compared to traditional cryptanalysis, and automated cryptanalysis crunching a description of the cipher (e.g. encoded as a satisfiability problem).
$endgroup$
– fgrieu
Feb 19 at 18:00
$begingroup$
I think its important to note, that Neuro-Cryptanalysis has failed so far on serious ciphers.
$endgroup$
– Dylan
Feb 19 at 16:35
$begingroup$
I think its important to note, that Neuro-Cryptanalysis has failed so far on serious ciphers.
$endgroup$
– Dylan
Feb 19 at 16:35
$begingroup$
@Dylan: Neuro-Cryptanalysis as in these papers (thus as in the question) examines the cipher as a black box, without a description of its internals. That's dooms such Neuro-Cryptanalysis, putting it at a tremendous disadvantage compared to traditional cryptanalysis, and automated cryptanalysis crunching a description of the cipher (e.g. encoded as a satisfiability problem).
$endgroup$
– fgrieu
Feb 19 at 18:00
$begingroup$
@Dylan: Neuro-Cryptanalysis as in these papers (thus as in the question) examines the cipher as a black box, without a description of its internals. That's dooms such Neuro-Cryptanalysis, putting it at a tremendous disadvantage compared to traditional cryptanalysis, and automated cryptanalysis crunching a description of the cipher (e.g. encoded as a satisfiability problem).
$endgroup$
– fgrieu
Feb 19 at 18:00
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
The inverse S-box is useless if you don't have the key.
$endgroup$
– forest
Feb 18 at 12:36
2
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Any practical uses for machine learning for cryptography?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
Feb 18 at 15:22