Six yolks in a bowl: Why not optimal circle packing? [closed]
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
$begingroup$
Making soufflé tonight, I wondered if the six yolks took on the
optimal circle packing configuration.
They do not. It is only with seven congruent circles that the optimal
packing places one in the center.
Q.
Why don't the yolks in a bowl follow the optimal packing of congruent
circles in a circle?
Six yolks in a bowl.
Image from Wikipedia.
Optimal packings for $5,6,7$ circles.
discrete-geometry classical-mechanics circle-packing
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
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closed as off-topic by Wojowu, Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov Jan 23 at 0:54
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "MathOverflow is for mathematicians to ask each other questions about their research. See Math.StackExchange to ask general questions in mathematics." – Wojowu, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov
|
show 11 more comments
$begingroup$
Making soufflé tonight, I wondered if the six yolks took on the
optimal circle packing configuration.
They do not. It is only with seven congruent circles that the optimal
packing places one in the center.
Q.
Why don't the yolks in a bowl follow the optimal packing of congruent
circles in a circle?
Six yolks in a bowl.
Image from Wikipedia.
Optimal packings for $5,6,7$ circles.
discrete-geometry classical-mechanics circle-packing
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
$endgroup$
closed as off-topic by Wojowu, Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov Jan 23 at 0:54
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "MathOverflow is for mathematicians to ask each other questions about their research. See Math.StackExchange to ask general questions in mathematics." – Wojowu, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov
18
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They do. Five circles touching a center circle is an optimal configuration too. Optimal configurations aren't, in general, unique.
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– Wojowu
Jan 20 at 23:01
28
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Is not it clearly visible on your photograph that they are NOT circles?
$endgroup$
– Alexandre Eremenko
Jan 20 at 23:06
14
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I would think since gravity is pulling them down, a configuration with the lowest energy would include an egg at the center for most quantities. The optimal circle packing problem doesn't address the 3rd dimension.
$endgroup$
– Greg Schmit
Jan 20 at 23:43
6
$begingroup$
Consider a flat-bottomed stainless steel potential well of diameter slightly less than $3$ times the diameter of the yolks. Experimental evidence (namely, i.stack.imgur.com/QE8iT.jpg and i.stack.imgur.com/mmT4b.jpg ) suggests that both configurations are stable. At supercritical diameters (not pictured), the eggs seem to prefer configurations that minimize the total surface area and therefore avoid the configuration with $6$-fold symmetry. Thermal annealing proved uninsightful.
$endgroup$
– MTyson
Jan 21 at 0:14
26
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This belongs on math.stackexchange, not here
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:57
|
show 11 more comments
$begingroup$
Making soufflé tonight, I wondered if the six yolks took on the
optimal circle packing configuration.
They do not. It is only with seven congruent circles that the optimal
packing places one in the center.
Q.
Why don't the yolks in a bowl follow the optimal packing of congruent
circles in a circle?
Six yolks in a bowl.
Image from Wikipedia.
Optimal packings for $5,6,7$ circles.
discrete-geometry classical-mechanics circle-packing
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
$endgroup$
Making soufflé tonight, I wondered if the six yolks took on the
optimal circle packing configuration.
They do not. It is only with seven congruent circles that the optimal
packing places one in the center.
Q.
Why don't the yolks in a bowl follow the optimal packing of congruent
circles in a circle?
Six yolks in a bowl.
Image from Wikipedia.
Optimal packings for $5,6,7$ circles.
discrete-geometry classical-mechanics circle-packing
discrete-geometry classical-mechanics circle-packing
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
edited Jan 20 at 23:07
Joseph O'Rourke
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
asked Jan 20 at 22:44
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
85.2k16231699
85.2k16231699
closed as off-topic by Wojowu, Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov Jan 23 at 0:54
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "MathOverflow is for mathematicians to ask each other questions about their research. See Math.StackExchange to ask general questions in mathematics." – Wojowu, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov
closed as off-topic by Wojowu, Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov Jan 23 at 0:54
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "MathOverflow is for mathematicians to ask each other questions about their research. See Math.StackExchange to ask general questions in mathematics." – Wojowu, Alexey Ustinov, Ben McKay, Anton Fetisov
18
$begingroup$
They do. Five circles touching a center circle is an optimal configuration too. Optimal configurations aren't, in general, unique.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 20 at 23:01
28
$begingroup$
Is not it clearly visible on your photograph that they are NOT circles?
$endgroup$
– Alexandre Eremenko
Jan 20 at 23:06
14
$begingroup$
I would think since gravity is pulling them down, a configuration with the lowest energy would include an egg at the center for most quantities. The optimal circle packing problem doesn't address the 3rd dimension.
$endgroup$
– Greg Schmit
Jan 20 at 23:43
6
$begingroup$
Consider a flat-bottomed stainless steel potential well of diameter slightly less than $3$ times the diameter of the yolks. Experimental evidence (namely, i.stack.imgur.com/QE8iT.jpg and i.stack.imgur.com/mmT4b.jpg ) suggests that both configurations are stable. At supercritical diameters (not pictured), the eggs seem to prefer configurations that minimize the total surface area and therefore avoid the configuration with $6$-fold symmetry. Thermal annealing proved uninsightful.
$endgroup$
– MTyson
Jan 21 at 0:14
26
$begingroup$
This belongs on math.stackexchange, not here
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:57
|
show 11 more comments
18
$begingroup$
They do. Five circles touching a center circle is an optimal configuration too. Optimal configurations aren't, in general, unique.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 20 at 23:01
28
$begingroup$
Is not it clearly visible on your photograph that they are NOT circles?
$endgroup$
– Alexandre Eremenko
Jan 20 at 23:06
14
$begingroup$
I would think since gravity is pulling them down, a configuration with the lowest energy would include an egg at the center for most quantities. The optimal circle packing problem doesn't address the 3rd dimension.
$endgroup$
– Greg Schmit
Jan 20 at 23:43
6
$begingroup$
Consider a flat-bottomed stainless steel potential well of diameter slightly less than $3$ times the diameter of the yolks. Experimental evidence (namely, i.stack.imgur.com/QE8iT.jpg and i.stack.imgur.com/mmT4b.jpg ) suggests that both configurations are stable. At supercritical diameters (not pictured), the eggs seem to prefer configurations that minimize the total surface area and therefore avoid the configuration with $6$-fold symmetry. Thermal annealing proved uninsightful.
$endgroup$
– MTyson
Jan 21 at 0:14
26
$begingroup$
This belongs on math.stackexchange, not here
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:57
18
18
$begingroup$
They do. Five circles touching a center circle is an optimal configuration too. Optimal configurations aren't, in general, unique.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 20 at 23:01
$begingroup$
They do. Five circles touching a center circle is an optimal configuration too. Optimal configurations aren't, in general, unique.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 20 at 23:01
28
28
$begingroup$
Is not it clearly visible on your photograph that they are NOT circles?
$endgroup$
– Alexandre Eremenko
Jan 20 at 23:06
$begingroup$
Is not it clearly visible on your photograph that they are NOT circles?
$endgroup$
– Alexandre Eremenko
Jan 20 at 23:06
14
14
$begingroup$
I would think since gravity is pulling them down, a configuration with the lowest energy would include an egg at the center for most quantities. The optimal circle packing problem doesn't address the 3rd dimension.
$endgroup$
– Greg Schmit
Jan 20 at 23:43
$begingroup$
I would think since gravity is pulling them down, a configuration with the lowest energy would include an egg at the center for most quantities. The optimal circle packing problem doesn't address the 3rd dimension.
$endgroup$
– Greg Schmit
Jan 20 at 23:43
6
6
$begingroup$
Consider a flat-bottomed stainless steel potential well of diameter slightly less than $3$ times the diameter of the yolks. Experimental evidence (namely, i.stack.imgur.com/QE8iT.jpg and i.stack.imgur.com/mmT4b.jpg ) suggests that both configurations are stable. At supercritical diameters (not pictured), the eggs seem to prefer configurations that minimize the total surface area and therefore avoid the configuration with $6$-fold symmetry. Thermal annealing proved uninsightful.
$endgroup$
– MTyson
Jan 21 at 0:14
$begingroup$
Consider a flat-bottomed stainless steel potential well of diameter slightly less than $3$ times the diameter of the yolks. Experimental evidence (namely, i.stack.imgur.com/QE8iT.jpg and i.stack.imgur.com/mmT4b.jpg ) suggests that both configurations are stable. At supercritical diameters (not pictured), the eggs seem to prefer configurations that minimize the total surface area and therefore avoid the configuration with $6$-fold symmetry. Thermal annealing proved uninsightful.
$endgroup$
– MTyson
Jan 21 at 0:14
26
26
$begingroup$
This belongs on math.stackexchange, not here
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:57
$begingroup$
This belongs on math.stackexchange, not here
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:57
|
show 11 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
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The system doesn't try to minimise the radius of the enclosing circle, but its potential energy. We can idealise this as non-overlapping disks in a convex rotationally symmetric potential $V$ with $V(0) = 0$. The configuration that was physically realised then has potential energy $5 V(d)$ (with $d$ the diameter of the yolks) while the configuration from Wikipedia would have potential energy $6 V(d)$.
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
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1
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However, the $d$ in $6 V(d)$ is smaller than the one in $5 V(d)$. You need to show that the inequality still holds.
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– Matthias Urlichs
Jan 21 at 8:08
1
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@MatthiasUrlichs Assuming perfect, rigid disks, the $d$ is the same.
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– Wojowu
Jan 21 at 9:36
4
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@MatthiasUrlichs If you look at the images in the question, the size of the circle of optimal 6- and 7-packings are the same, so removing any circle from the optimal 7-packing creates another optimal 6-packing. And if you remove a circle not on the center, you can move the other circles around a bit. So the $d$ is equal for both cases.
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– Janne Kokkala
Jan 21 at 14:49
add a comment |
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Those packing rules only apply for rigid circles. Anyone who's ever cracked an egg knows that yolks are not rigid. As a result of that, you can clearly see that the sides of yolks are flattened as they touch another yolk.
So those packing rules simply don't apply.
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
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5
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There is energy to be saved by compressing the yolks out of circles. Presumably there is more to be saved in the $5+1$ configuration than in the circle of $6$.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:58
add a comment |
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What do you mean, "the yolks don't follow optimal packing"? Sure they do. The configuration with one yolk in the center has the exact same radius as the one with six yolks distributed along the edge.
It also has lower potential energy, thus the 6-circle solution you cited is a non-global optimum at best. In fact it's probably metastable, given egg yolks' general tendency to be squishy blobs instead of perfect circles.
answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
2114
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add a comment |
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In addition to the excellent answers already added, it is important to note that in addition to Martin Hairer's description, this problem is distinct from circle packing in another way: the system tries to minimize the potential function at every point in time, subject to the physical laws governing the movement of egg yolks in a bowl. This is not generally equivalent to minimizing the potential function, and might lead to a local but not global minimum.
One example of this is a pencil balancing on its tip. This is an equilibrium state, but clearly the potential energy is suboptimal. This example is admittedly rather far from the egg yolk problem though, so an edit from someone with a more similar example would probably be appropriate.
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
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Welcome to MO dreamconspiracy. An egg yolk balanced on top of a bowl instead of inside is perhaps a closer example of unstable equilibrium, but the configuration they've found above is stable and (essentially) the global minimum PE.
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– Alec Rhea
Jan 21 at 6:45
1
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@alecrhea a global minimum is essentially always stable in a system that is governed by physical laws where the gradient of potential is proportional to acceleration. That doesn't mean there are no other stable points or that these are never reached
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 21 at 6:48
2
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Probably it's just a matter of different definitions, but I would call a pencil balancing on its tip an unstable equilibrium point. I guess that when you write "stable" you mean what I call "equilibrium point", not what I call "stable".
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– Federico Poloni
Jan 22 at 12:52
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@FedericoPoloni ah yes. I will edit the answer to fix the terminology
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 22 at 12:55
add a comment |
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In addition to the non-rigid quality of egg yolks and the noted third dimension, it would take precision to align six yolks in a circle. By random placement, they most often find a closer packing, i. e. one without a big honking space in the middle.
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
211
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@DreamConspiracy: did you mean to suggest that configurations with a space in the middle are unstable equilibria? I didn't really get that from your answer.
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– Nik Weaver
Jan 22 at 16:37
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The system doesn't try to minimise the radius of the enclosing circle, but its potential energy. We can idealise this as non-overlapping disks in a convex rotationally symmetric potential $V$ with $V(0) = 0$. The configuration that was physically realised then has potential energy $5 V(d)$ (with $d$ the diameter of the yolks) while the configuration from Wikipedia would have potential energy $6 V(d)$.
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
However, the $d$ in $6 V(d)$ is smaller than the one in $5 V(d)$. You need to show that the inequality still holds.
$endgroup$
– Matthias Urlichs
Jan 21 at 8:08
1
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs Assuming perfect, rigid disks, the $d$ is the same.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 21 at 9:36
4
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@MatthiasUrlichs If you look at the images in the question, the size of the circle of optimal 6- and 7-packings are the same, so removing any circle from the optimal 7-packing creates another optimal 6-packing. And if you remove a circle not on the center, you can move the other circles around a bit. So the $d$ is equal for both cases.
$endgroup$
– Janne Kokkala
Jan 21 at 14:49
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The system doesn't try to minimise the radius of the enclosing circle, but its potential energy. We can idealise this as non-overlapping disks in a convex rotationally symmetric potential $V$ with $V(0) = 0$. The configuration that was physically realised then has potential energy $5 V(d)$ (with $d$ the diameter of the yolks) while the configuration from Wikipedia would have potential energy $6 V(d)$.
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
However, the $d$ in $6 V(d)$ is smaller than the one in $5 V(d)$. You need to show that the inequality still holds.
$endgroup$
– Matthias Urlichs
Jan 21 at 8:08
1
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs Assuming perfect, rigid disks, the $d$ is the same.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 21 at 9:36
4
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs If you look at the images in the question, the size of the circle of optimal 6- and 7-packings are the same, so removing any circle from the optimal 7-packing creates another optimal 6-packing. And if you remove a circle not on the center, you can move the other circles around a bit. So the $d$ is equal for both cases.
$endgroup$
– Janne Kokkala
Jan 21 at 14:49
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The system doesn't try to minimise the radius of the enclosing circle, but its potential energy. We can idealise this as non-overlapping disks in a convex rotationally symmetric potential $V$ with $V(0) = 0$. The configuration that was physically realised then has potential energy $5 V(d)$ (with $d$ the diameter of the yolks) while the configuration from Wikipedia would have potential energy $6 V(d)$.
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
$endgroup$
The system doesn't try to minimise the radius of the enclosing circle, but its potential energy. We can idealise this as non-overlapping disks in a convex rotationally symmetric potential $V$ with $V(0) = 0$. The configuration that was physically realised then has potential energy $5 V(d)$ (with $d$ the diameter of the yolks) while the configuration from Wikipedia would have potential energy $6 V(d)$.
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
answered Jan 20 at 22:58
Martin HairerMartin Hairer
4,2661929
4,2661929
1
$begingroup$
However, the $d$ in $6 V(d)$ is smaller than the one in $5 V(d)$. You need to show that the inequality still holds.
$endgroup$
– Matthias Urlichs
Jan 21 at 8:08
1
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs Assuming perfect, rigid disks, the $d$ is the same.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 21 at 9:36
4
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs If you look at the images in the question, the size of the circle of optimal 6- and 7-packings are the same, so removing any circle from the optimal 7-packing creates another optimal 6-packing. And if you remove a circle not on the center, you can move the other circles around a bit. So the $d$ is equal for both cases.
$endgroup$
– Janne Kokkala
Jan 21 at 14:49
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
However, the $d$ in $6 V(d)$ is smaller than the one in $5 V(d)$. You need to show that the inequality still holds.
$endgroup$
– Matthias Urlichs
Jan 21 at 8:08
1
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs Assuming perfect, rigid disks, the $d$ is the same.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 21 at 9:36
4
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs If you look at the images in the question, the size of the circle of optimal 6- and 7-packings are the same, so removing any circle from the optimal 7-packing creates another optimal 6-packing. And if you remove a circle not on the center, you can move the other circles around a bit. So the $d$ is equal for both cases.
$endgroup$
– Janne Kokkala
Jan 21 at 14:49
1
1
$begingroup$
However, the $d$ in $6 V(d)$ is smaller than the one in $5 V(d)$. You need to show that the inequality still holds.
$endgroup$
– Matthias Urlichs
Jan 21 at 8:08
$begingroup$
However, the $d$ in $6 V(d)$ is smaller than the one in $5 V(d)$. You need to show that the inequality still holds.
$endgroup$
– Matthias Urlichs
Jan 21 at 8:08
1
1
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs Assuming perfect, rigid disks, the $d$ is the same.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 21 at 9:36
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs Assuming perfect, rigid disks, the $d$ is the same.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
Jan 21 at 9:36
4
4
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs If you look at the images in the question, the size of the circle of optimal 6- and 7-packings are the same, so removing any circle from the optimal 7-packing creates another optimal 6-packing. And if you remove a circle not on the center, you can move the other circles around a bit. So the $d$ is equal for both cases.
$endgroup$
– Janne Kokkala
Jan 21 at 14:49
$begingroup$
@MatthiasUrlichs If you look at the images in the question, the size of the circle of optimal 6- and 7-packings are the same, so removing any circle from the optimal 7-packing creates another optimal 6-packing. And if you remove a circle not on the center, you can move the other circles around a bit. So the $d$ is equal for both cases.
$endgroup$
– Janne Kokkala
Jan 21 at 14:49
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Those packing rules only apply for rigid circles. Anyone who's ever cracked an egg knows that yolks are not rigid. As a result of that, you can clearly see that the sides of yolks are flattened as they touch another yolk.
So those packing rules simply don't apply.
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
$endgroup$
5
$begingroup$
There is energy to be saved by compressing the yolks out of circles. Presumably there is more to be saved in the $5+1$ configuration than in the circle of $6$.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:58
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Those packing rules only apply for rigid circles. Anyone who's ever cracked an egg knows that yolks are not rigid. As a result of that, you can clearly see that the sides of yolks are flattened as they touch another yolk.
So those packing rules simply don't apply.
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
$endgroup$
5
$begingroup$
There is energy to be saved by compressing the yolks out of circles. Presumably there is more to be saved in the $5+1$ configuration than in the circle of $6$.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:58
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Those packing rules only apply for rigid circles. Anyone who's ever cracked an egg knows that yolks are not rigid. As a result of that, you can clearly see that the sides of yolks are flattened as they touch another yolk.
So those packing rules simply don't apply.
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
$endgroup$
Those packing rules only apply for rigid circles. Anyone who's ever cracked an egg knows that yolks are not rigid. As a result of that, you can clearly see that the sides of yolks are flattened as they touch another yolk.
So those packing rules simply don't apply.
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
answered Jan 21 at 0:15
GrahamGraham
35922
35922
5
$begingroup$
There is energy to be saved by compressing the yolks out of circles. Presumably there is more to be saved in the $5+1$ configuration than in the circle of $6$.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:58
add a comment |
5
$begingroup$
There is energy to be saved by compressing the yolks out of circles. Presumably there is more to be saved in the $5+1$ configuration than in the circle of $6$.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:58
5
5
$begingroup$
There is energy to be saved by compressing the yolks out of circles. Presumably there is more to be saved in the $5+1$ configuration than in the circle of $6$.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:58
$begingroup$
There is energy to be saved by compressing the yolks out of circles. Presumably there is more to be saved in the $5+1$ configuration than in the circle of $6$.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:58
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What do you mean, "the yolks don't follow optimal packing"? Sure they do. The configuration with one yolk in the center has the exact same radius as the one with six yolks distributed along the edge.
It also has lower potential energy, thus the 6-circle solution you cited is a non-global optimum at best. In fact it's probably metastable, given egg yolks' general tendency to be squishy blobs instead of perfect circles.
answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
2114
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What do you mean, "the yolks don't follow optimal packing"? Sure they do. The configuration with one yolk in the center has the exact same radius as the one with six yolks distributed along the edge.
It also has lower potential energy, thus the 6-circle solution you cited is a non-global optimum at best. In fact it's probably metastable, given egg yolks' general tendency to be squishy blobs instead of perfect circles.
answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
2114
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What do you mean, "the yolks don't follow optimal packing"? Sure they do. The configuration with one yolk in the center has the exact same radius as the one with six yolks distributed along the edge.
It also has lower potential energy, thus the 6-circle solution you cited is a non-global optimum at best. In fact it's probably metastable, given egg yolks' general tendency to be squishy blobs instead of perfect circles.
answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
2114
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What do you mean, "the yolks don't follow optimal packing"? Sure they do. The configuration with one yolk in the center has the exact same radius as the one with six yolks distributed along the edge.
It also has lower potential energy, thus the 6-circle solution you cited is a non-global optimum at best. In fact it's probably metastable, given egg yolks' general tendency to be squishy blobs instead of perfect circles.
answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
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answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
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answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
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answered Jan 21 at 8:17
Matthias UrlichsMatthias Urlichs
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add a comment |
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In addition to the excellent answers already added, it is important to note that in addition to Martin Hairer's description, this problem is distinct from circle packing in another way: the system tries to minimize the potential function at every point in time, subject to the physical laws governing the movement of egg yolks in a bowl. This is not generally equivalent to minimizing the potential function, and might lead to a local but not global minimum.
One example of this is a pencil balancing on its tip. This is an equilibrium state, but clearly the potential energy is suboptimal. This example is admittedly rather far from the egg yolk problem though, so an edit from someone with a more similar example would probably be appropriate.
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
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Welcome to MO dreamconspiracy. An egg yolk balanced on top of a bowl instead of inside is perhaps a closer example of unstable equilibrium, but the configuration they've found above is stable and (essentially) the global minimum PE.
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– Alec Rhea
Jan 21 at 6:45
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@alecrhea a global minimum is essentially always stable in a system that is governed by physical laws where the gradient of potential is proportional to acceleration. That doesn't mean there are no other stable points or that these are never reached
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 21 at 6:48
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Probably it's just a matter of different definitions, but I would call a pencil balancing on its tip an unstable equilibrium point. I guess that when you write "stable" you mean what I call "equilibrium point", not what I call "stable".
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– Federico Poloni
Jan 22 at 12:52
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@FedericoPoloni ah yes. I will edit the answer to fix the terminology
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 22 at 12:55
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to the excellent answers already added, it is important to note that in addition to Martin Hairer's description, this problem is distinct from circle packing in another way: the system tries to minimize the potential function at every point in time, subject to the physical laws governing the movement of egg yolks in a bowl. This is not generally equivalent to minimizing the potential function, and might lead to a local but not global minimum.
One example of this is a pencil balancing on its tip. This is an equilibrium state, but clearly the potential energy is suboptimal. This example is admittedly rather far from the egg yolk problem though, so an edit from someone with a more similar example would probably be appropriate.
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
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2
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Welcome to MO dreamconspiracy. An egg yolk balanced on top of a bowl instead of inside is perhaps a closer example of unstable equilibrium, but the configuration they've found above is stable and (essentially) the global minimum PE.
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– Alec Rhea
Jan 21 at 6:45
1
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@alecrhea a global minimum is essentially always stable in a system that is governed by physical laws where the gradient of potential is proportional to acceleration. That doesn't mean there are no other stable points or that these are never reached
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 21 at 6:48
2
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Probably it's just a matter of different definitions, but I would call a pencil balancing on its tip an unstable equilibrium point. I guess that when you write "stable" you mean what I call "equilibrium point", not what I call "stable".
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– Federico Poloni
Jan 22 at 12:52
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@FedericoPoloni ah yes. I will edit the answer to fix the terminology
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 22 at 12:55
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to the excellent answers already added, it is important to note that in addition to Martin Hairer's description, this problem is distinct from circle packing in another way: the system tries to minimize the potential function at every point in time, subject to the physical laws governing the movement of egg yolks in a bowl. This is not generally equivalent to minimizing the potential function, and might lead to a local but not global minimum.
One example of this is a pencil balancing on its tip. This is an equilibrium state, but clearly the potential energy is suboptimal. This example is admittedly rather far from the egg yolk problem though, so an edit from someone with a more similar example would probably be appropriate.
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
$endgroup$
In addition to the excellent answers already added, it is important to note that in addition to Martin Hairer's description, this problem is distinct from circle packing in another way: the system tries to minimize the potential function at every point in time, subject to the physical laws governing the movement of egg yolks in a bowl. This is not generally equivalent to minimizing the potential function, and might lead to a local but not global minimum.
One example of this is a pencil balancing on its tip. This is an equilibrium state, but clearly the potential energy is suboptimal. This example is admittedly rather far from the egg yolk problem though, so an edit from someone with a more similar example would probably be appropriate.
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
edited Jan 22 at 12:56
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
answered Jan 21 at 6:33
DreamConspiracyDreamConspiracy
1514
1514
2
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Welcome to MO dreamconspiracy. An egg yolk balanced on top of a bowl instead of inside is perhaps a closer example of unstable equilibrium, but the configuration they've found above is stable and (essentially) the global minimum PE.
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– Alec Rhea
Jan 21 at 6:45
1
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@alecrhea a global minimum is essentially always stable in a system that is governed by physical laws where the gradient of potential is proportional to acceleration. That doesn't mean there are no other stable points or that these are never reached
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 21 at 6:48
2
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Probably it's just a matter of different definitions, but I would call a pencil balancing on its tip an unstable equilibrium point. I guess that when you write "stable" you mean what I call "equilibrium point", not what I call "stable".
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– Federico Poloni
Jan 22 at 12:52
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@FedericoPoloni ah yes. I will edit the answer to fix the terminology
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 22 at 12:55
add a comment |
2
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Welcome to MO dreamconspiracy. An egg yolk balanced on top of a bowl instead of inside is perhaps a closer example of unstable equilibrium, but the configuration they've found above is stable and (essentially) the global minimum PE.
$endgroup$
– Alec Rhea
Jan 21 at 6:45
1
$begingroup$
@alecrhea a global minimum is essentially always stable in a system that is governed by physical laws where the gradient of potential is proportional to acceleration. That doesn't mean there are no other stable points or that these are never reached
$endgroup$
– DreamConspiracy
Jan 21 at 6:48
2
$begingroup$
Probably it's just a matter of different definitions, but I would call a pencil balancing on its tip an unstable equilibrium point. I guess that when you write "stable" you mean what I call "equilibrium point", not what I call "stable".
$endgroup$
– Federico Poloni
Jan 22 at 12:52
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@FedericoPoloni ah yes. I will edit the answer to fix the terminology
$endgroup$
– DreamConspiracy
Jan 22 at 12:55
2
2
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Welcome to MO dreamconspiracy. An egg yolk balanced on top of a bowl instead of inside is perhaps a closer example of unstable equilibrium, but the configuration they've found above is stable and (essentially) the global minimum PE.
$endgroup$
– Alec Rhea
Jan 21 at 6:45
$begingroup$
Welcome to MO dreamconspiracy. An egg yolk balanced on top of a bowl instead of inside is perhaps a closer example of unstable equilibrium, but the configuration they've found above is stable and (essentially) the global minimum PE.
$endgroup$
– Alec Rhea
Jan 21 at 6:45
1
1
$begingroup$
@alecrhea a global minimum is essentially always stable in a system that is governed by physical laws where the gradient of potential is proportional to acceleration. That doesn't mean there are no other stable points or that these are never reached
$endgroup$
– DreamConspiracy
Jan 21 at 6:48
$begingroup$
@alecrhea a global minimum is essentially always stable in a system that is governed by physical laws where the gradient of potential is proportional to acceleration. That doesn't mean there are no other stable points or that these are never reached
$endgroup$
– DreamConspiracy
Jan 21 at 6:48
2
2
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Probably it's just a matter of different definitions, but I would call a pencil balancing on its tip an unstable equilibrium point. I guess that when you write "stable" you mean what I call "equilibrium point", not what I call "stable".
$endgroup$
– Federico Poloni
Jan 22 at 12:52
$begingroup$
Probably it's just a matter of different definitions, but I would call a pencil balancing on its tip an unstable equilibrium point. I guess that when you write "stable" you mean what I call "equilibrium point", not what I call "stable".
$endgroup$
– Federico Poloni
Jan 22 at 12:52
$begingroup$
@FedericoPoloni ah yes. I will edit the answer to fix the terminology
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 22 at 12:55
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@FedericoPoloni ah yes. I will edit the answer to fix the terminology
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– DreamConspiracy
Jan 22 at 12:55
add a comment |
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In addition to the non-rigid quality of egg yolks and the noted third dimension, it would take precision to align six yolks in a circle. By random placement, they most often find a closer packing, i. e. one without a big honking space in the middle.
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
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@DreamConspiracy: did you mean to suggest that configurations with a space in the middle are unstable equilibria? I didn't really get that from your answer.
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– Nik Weaver
Jan 22 at 16:37
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In addition to the non-rigid quality of egg yolks and the noted third dimension, it would take precision to align six yolks in a circle. By random placement, they most often find a closer packing, i. e. one without a big honking space in the middle.
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
211
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@DreamConspiracy: did you mean to suggest that configurations with a space in the middle are unstable equilibria? I didn't really get that from your answer.
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– Nik Weaver
Jan 22 at 16:37
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to the non-rigid quality of egg yolks and the noted third dimension, it would take precision to align six yolks in a circle. By random placement, they most often find a closer packing, i. e. one without a big honking space in the middle.
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
211
$endgroup$
In addition to the non-rigid quality of egg yolks and the noted third dimension, it would take precision to align six yolks in a circle. By random placement, they most often find a closer packing, i. e. one without a big honking space in the middle.
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
211
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
211
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
211
answered Jan 21 at 6:21
JimboJimbo
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211
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@DreamConspiracy: did you mean to suggest that configurations with a space in the middle are unstable equilibria? I didn't really get that from your answer.
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– Nik Weaver
Jan 22 at 16:37
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@DreamConspiracy: did you mean to suggest that configurations with a space in the middle are unstable equilibria? I didn't really get that from your answer.
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– Nik Weaver
Jan 22 at 16:37
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@DreamConspiracy: did you mean to suggest that configurations with a space in the middle are unstable equilibria? I didn't really get that from your answer.
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– Nik Weaver
Jan 22 at 16:37
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@DreamConspiracy: did you mean to suggest that configurations with a space in the middle are unstable equilibria? I didn't really get that from your answer.
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– Nik Weaver
Jan 22 at 16:37
add a comment |
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They do. Five circles touching a center circle is an optimal configuration too. Optimal configurations aren't, in general, unique.
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– Wojowu
Jan 20 at 23:01
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Is not it clearly visible on your photograph that they are NOT circles?
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– Alexandre Eremenko
Jan 20 at 23:06
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I would think since gravity is pulling them down, a configuration with the lowest energy would include an egg at the center for most quantities. The optimal circle packing problem doesn't address the 3rd dimension.
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– Greg Schmit
Jan 20 at 23:43
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Consider a flat-bottomed stainless steel potential well of diameter slightly less than $3$ times the diameter of the yolks. Experimental evidence (namely, i.stack.imgur.com/QE8iT.jpg and i.stack.imgur.com/mmT4b.jpg ) suggests that both configurations are stable. At supercritical diameters (not pictured), the eggs seem to prefer configurations that minimize the total surface area and therefore avoid the configuration with $6$-fold symmetry. Thermal annealing proved uninsightful.
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– MTyson
Jan 21 at 0:14
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This belongs on math.stackexchange, not here
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– Ross Millikan
Jan 21 at 3:57