Finni's tricky game
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Notes:
1. A "good strategy" is a balance between the lowest average and the best worst-case result. However, I have not yet found a strategy that is good on average but has a bad worst-case score or vice versa, so I there are only strategies that are good in both aspects.
2. Person A selects n randomly.
mathematics number-theory
|
show 4 more comments
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Notes:
1. A "good strategy" is a balance between the lowest average and the best worst-case result. However, I have not yet found a strategy that is good on average but has a bad worst-case score or vice versa, so I there are only strategies that are good in both aspects.
2. Person A selects n randomly.
mathematics number-theory
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
Dec 16 at 12:43
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:53
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:54
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
Dec 16 at 15:42
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 15:48
|
show 4 more comments
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Notes:
1. A "good strategy" is a balance between the lowest average and the best worst-case result. However, I have not yet found a strategy that is good on average but has a bad worst-case score or vice versa, so I there are only strategies that are good in both aspects.
2. Person A selects n randomly.
mathematics number-theory
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Notes:
1. A "good strategy" is a balance between the lowest average and the best worst-case result. However, I have not yet found a strategy that is good on average but has a bad worst-case score or vice versa, so I there are only strategies that are good in both aspects.
2. Person A selects n randomly.
mathematics number-theory
mathematics number-theory
edited Dec 16 at 20:41
asked Dec 16 at 12:02
Finni
1868
1868
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
Dec 16 at 12:43
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:53
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:54
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
Dec 16 at 15:42
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 15:48
|
show 4 more comments
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
Dec 16 at 12:43
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:53
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:54
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
Dec 16 at 15:42
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 15:48
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
Dec 16 at 12:43
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
Dec 16 at 12:43
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:53
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:53
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:54
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:54
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
Dec 16 at 15:42
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
Dec 16 at 15:42
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 15:48
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 15:48
|
show 4 more comments
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
Your thoughts about more guesses really tempts me to post the puzzle again, but generalize it to n guesses and numbers between 1 and m... very interesting!
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:53
add a comment |
Assuming that A picks randomly from a uniform distribution, B should pick for $x$:
$8$ or $3$ due to symmetry
and for $y$:
$(8-u)$ or $(3+u)$ respectively
The expected value of $u+v$ is then:
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 8| + (n-8) )= 3.7$
or
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 3| - (n-3) )= 3.7$
How did you find the expected value?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:49
2
I included the calculation of the expected values.
– gogators
Dec 17 at 14:39
add a comment |
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
[EDITED to add:] Some time after I wrote the above, OP edited the question to specify that A chooses at random. If B is trying to minimize u+v in the worst case then actually it doesn't matter whether A is playing at random or trying to thwart B; B has to assume that A might get lucky. So the following applies without modification, as far as finding B's strategy goes, to the case where B is trying to optimize for the worst case and A is playing randomly.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:58
1. Where does the2(x-1)
in your equation come from? 2. The worst result when choosingx = 4
is9
. Example:x = 4
,n = 1
, =>u = 3
=> A choosesy = x + u = 4 + 3 = 7
=>v = 6
=>u + v = 9
– Finni
Dec 16 at 21:17
I don't think I understand. You say "A chooses y = ..." but y is chosen by B not A, and in this situation B would choose y=4 not y=7. The total error would then be 3+3=6.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 17 at 12:35
A chooses randomly.
– gogators
Dec 18 at 16:52
1
When I wrote this answer, the question did not say that A chooses randomly.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 19 at 0:15
|
show 1 more comment
@GarethMcCaughan gave the answer for when B is trying to minimize the maximum value of u+v, and A is doing the opposite.
I will assume that B is trying to minimize the average (ie. expected) value of u+v and A is trying to maximize that. [EDIT: OP pointed out this was not what we were supposed to assume. Oh well, I'll leave this answer up anyway.]
Then I claim:
A should flip a coin and choose either 1 or 10 for n. B should do likewise for x. u will be either 0 or 9, and then B will know what n is, so picks y=n.
The expected value of u+v is
4.5 (50% chance of u being either 0 or 9, and 100% chance of v being 0).
If A sticks to the strategy, B cannot reduce the expected value of u+v:
If B picks a different x, then the expected value of u does not change: 50% chance it is 10-x and 50% chance it is x-1, expected value 4.5, and v obviously can't be less than 0, so there can't be any improvement for B.
And B randomizing between different values of x, all of which give the same expected result, will give the same expected result.
If B sticks to the strategy, A cannot increase the expected value of u+v:
Similar logic for A says if A picks a different n, the expected value of u is still 4.5, and B will still know what n is after u is revealed, so v will still be zero.
(aka "Nash equilibrium")
Why is the chance of u being either 0 or 9 50%? Isn't it 1/10 for 0 and for 9 and all the numbers between respectively?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:04
@Finni - both A and B are flipping a coin and picking the extreme values.
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:05
Wow. I just realized that is indeed the best strategy, assuming that A does not pick randomly. That surprised me, actually... (Even though we do not know wether this strategy is just better than picking randomly, or if it is the best strategy for A) So you get my +1, but in the comments I stated that we assume A does pick randomly, which is why I cannot accept your quite unexpected (at least for me) discovery as the solution.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:15
@Finni ok I see :-) perhaps you could edit that comment into the question?
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:21
add a comment |
If you choose
$1$ or $10$, you will find the next number for sure,
so in average,
you would have $4.5$ expected value which is found all distances between chosen corner number to all numbers.
as a formula from $1$,
$frac0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+910=4.5$,
How did I find this value?
It is taking every possibilities of A's chose and find the average value. (in other words the expected value/outcome of the game since A randomly chooses the number of him/her.) For this particular example above, we choose $1$ (it could be $10$ too, because of symmetry, it doesnt matter) and if A randomly chooses $1$, the distance would be 0, and since you found the number, our S will be 0. If A choose $2$, our $u$ will be $1$ and since we know what I guessed after this distance value, the next guess's distance (which is $v$) would be 0, and so on. so if we add all (u+v) distances and take the average of them, it will give us the expected value of choosing $1$/$10$ of the game.
So
From now on, the order of the number from left to right represents the $u+v$ value for $1$ to $10$, respectively.
If you choose
$2$ or $9$, If the distance from B's numbers to A's is more than 2 we can apply the same rule above, but if the distance is just $1$, you need to stick the original number again for your guess, because the expected value trying to guess the number would not change the average expected value. For example, let say B chooses $2$ and A chooses $1$, on first guess, $u$ will be 1, then B will know that A's number is $1$ or $3$ but the chance of the number being $1$ or $3$ is actually the same, if B choose $3$, it could cost $2$ points to him, or if he B choose $1$, 0 points. Since the chances are the same, choosing $2$ again would be the same thing.
so
$frac2+0+2+2+3+4+5+6+7+810=3.9$, so choosing $2$ or $9$ makes more sense :)
let's try
$3$ or $8$, which are again mirror, with the same logic,
we get
$frac4+2+0+2+4+3+4+5+6+710=3.7$
which is better than the previous chosen couple.
let's try now
$4$ or $7$,
we get
$frac6+4+2+0+2+4+6+4+5+610=3.9$
which is worse average than before.
lastly,
$5$ and $6$, (chosing distance from $5$)
and we get
$frac8+6+4+2+0+2+4+6+8+510=4.5$
so as a result, we can conclude that
Choosing $3$ or $8$ is the most optimal chosen number for this game, because strategy aftering getting equidistance two possibilities and using any strategy after that would not change the expected outcome value, so just sticking is actually the same in those cases.
Can you explain the terms in your equations?
– gogators
Dec 17 at 15:24
@gogators sure, editing now.
– Oray
Dec 17 at 16:55
add a comment |
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:59
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:04
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
Dec 16 at 13:09
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:15
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:57
add a comment |
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
1
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
Dec 16 at 14:00
add a comment |
First, let's note that:
$X$ is given as a completely random number. B has no idea of what A's number could be at this time.
Also that:
The probabilities involved in choosing $1$ are the same involved in choosing $10$. The probabilities for $2$ are the same as for $9$. $3$ with $8$. $4$ with $7$. $5$ with $6$. So, we need to analyze only $5$ cases of the initial analysis of $X$ and the other five are symmetric.
We will need to evoke a concept:
Expected value is the topic at statistics that will help us. The expected value of a variable $M$ is represented as $E(M)$. In this problem, we are looking for $E(U + V)$, which is the value that we want to minimize.
Let's start with 1:
If $X = 1$, then each value in $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. The error is then $U$. Since each value of the interval $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$ (and also $U + V$), then:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (10% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 10$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 2:
If $X = 2$, then each value in $[2, 8]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ has $20%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 2$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $70%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $3$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 8]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 9$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 3:
If $X = 3$, then each value in $[3, 7]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ and $2$ have $20%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 3$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $50%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $4$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 7]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 7) \ = & 10% times 37 \ = & 3.7 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 8$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 4:
If $X = 4$, then each value in $[1, 3]$ has $20%$ and each value in $[4, 6]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 4$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $30%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 5]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 9) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 7$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Finally:
If $X = 5$, then each value in $[1, 4]$ has $20%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ and $5$ also have $10%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U = 5$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $4$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $8$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 4$, guess once more. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $9$. One will give us $U + V = 4$ and the other $U + V = 12$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 6]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$ and $10%$ for $U + V = 12$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 9) + (10% times 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 6$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
General rule:
After B chooses some $X$ and was given some $U$, this is what B should do:
1. Compute $P = X + U$ and $Q = X - U$.
2. If $P = Q$, then $Y = P$.
3. If only one of $P in [0, 9]$ and $Q in [0, 9]$ is true, choose that one as $Y$.
4. Otherwise, guess either $P$ or $Q$ as the answer. One is a good guess and the other is a terrible one. If you prefer to not be cold nor hot and stay warm, you might just choose a middle ground and make $Y = X$.
The best numbers to choose as $X$ are:
$3$ and $8$. Their expected value is lower than the other choices.
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "559"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpuzzling.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f77516%2ffinnis-tricky-game%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
Your thoughts about more guesses really tempts me to post the puzzle again, but generalize it to n guesses and numbers between 1 and m... very interesting!
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:53
add a comment |
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
Your thoughts about more guesses really tempts me to post the puzzle again, but generalize it to n guesses and numbers between 1 and m... very interesting!
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:53
add a comment |
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
edited Dec 16 at 17:03
answered Dec 16 at 16:55
tom
2,0161630
2,0161630
Your thoughts about more guesses really tempts me to post the puzzle again, but generalize it to n guesses and numbers between 1 and m... very interesting!
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:53
add a comment |
Your thoughts about more guesses really tempts me to post the puzzle again, but generalize it to n guesses and numbers between 1 and m... very interesting!
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:53
Your thoughts about more guesses really tempts me to post the puzzle again, but generalize it to n guesses and numbers between 1 and m... very interesting!
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:53
Your thoughts about more guesses really tempts me to post the puzzle again, but generalize it to n guesses and numbers between 1 and m... very interesting!
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:53
add a comment |
Assuming that A picks randomly from a uniform distribution, B should pick for $x$:
$8$ or $3$ due to symmetry
and for $y$:
$(8-u)$ or $(3+u)$ respectively
The expected value of $u+v$ is then:
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 8| + (n-8) )= 3.7$
or
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 3| - (n-3) )= 3.7$
How did you find the expected value?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:49
2
I included the calculation of the expected values.
– gogators
Dec 17 at 14:39
add a comment |
Assuming that A picks randomly from a uniform distribution, B should pick for $x$:
$8$ or $3$ due to symmetry
and for $y$:
$(8-u)$ or $(3+u)$ respectively
The expected value of $u+v$ is then:
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 8| + (n-8) )= 3.7$
or
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 3| - (n-3) )= 3.7$
How did you find the expected value?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:49
2
I included the calculation of the expected values.
– gogators
Dec 17 at 14:39
add a comment |
Assuming that A picks randomly from a uniform distribution, B should pick for $x$:
$8$ or $3$ due to symmetry
and for $y$:
$(8-u)$ or $(3+u)$ respectively
The expected value of $u+v$ is then:
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 8| + (n-8) )= 3.7$
or
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 3| - (n-3) )= 3.7$
Assuming that A picks randomly from a uniform distribution, B should pick for $x$:
$8$ or $3$ due to symmetry
and for $y$:
$(8-u)$ or $(3+u)$ respectively
The expected value of $u+v$ is then:
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 8| + (n-8) )= 3.7$
or
$frac110sumlimits^10_n=1 (2|n - 3| - (n-3) )= 3.7$
edited Dec 17 at 14:39
answered Dec 16 at 17:01
gogators
28415
28415
How did you find the expected value?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:49
2
I included the calculation of the expected values.
– gogators
Dec 17 at 14:39
add a comment |
How did you find the expected value?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:49
2
I included the calculation of the expected values.
– gogators
Dec 17 at 14:39
How did you find the expected value?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:49
How did you find the expected value?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 19:49
2
2
I included the calculation of the expected values.
– gogators
Dec 17 at 14:39
I included the calculation of the expected values.
– gogators
Dec 17 at 14:39
add a comment |
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
[EDITED to add:] Some time after I wrote the above, OP edited the question to specify that A chooses at random. If B is trying to minimize u+v in the worst case then actually it doesn't matter whether A is playing at random or trying to thwart B; B has to assume that A might get lucky. So the following applies without modification, as far as finding B's strategy goes, to the case where B is trying to optimize for the worst case and A is playing randomly.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:58
1. Where does the2(x-1)
in your equation come from? 2. The worst result when choosingx = 4
is9
. Example:x = 4
,n = 1
, =>u = 3
=> A choosesy = x + u = 4 + 3 = 7
=>v = 6
=>u + v = 9
– Finni
Dec 16 at 21:17
I don't think I understand. You say "A chooses y = ..." but y is chosen by B not A, and in this situation B would choose y=4 not y=7. The total error would then be 3+3=6.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 17 at 12:35
A chooses randomly.
– gogators
Dec 18 at 16:52
1
When I wrote this answer, the question did not say that A chooses randomly.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 19 at 0:15
|
show 1 more comment
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
[EDITED to add:] Some time after I wrote the above, OP edited the question to specify that A chooses at random. If B is trying to minimize u+v in the worst case then actually it doesn't matter whether A is playing at random or trying to thwart B; B has to assume that A might get lucky. So the following applies without modification, as far as finding B's strategy goes, to the case where B is trying to optimize for the worst case and A is playing randomly.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:58
1. Where does the2(x-1)
in your equation come from? 2. The worst result when choosingx = 4
is9
. Example:x = 4
,n = 1
, =>u = 3
=> A choosesy = x + u = 4 + 3 = 7
=>v = 6
=>u + v = 9
– Finni
Dec 16 at 21:17
I don't think I understand. You say "A chooses y = ..." but y is chosen by B not A, and in this situation B would choose y=4 not y=7. The total error would then be 3+3=6.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 17 at 12:35
A chooses randomly.
– gogators
Dec 18 at 16:52
1
When I wrote this answer, the question did not say that A chooses randomly.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 19 at 0:15
|
show 1 more comment
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
[EDITED to add:] Some time after I wrote the above, OP edited the question to specify that A chooses at random. If B is trying to minimize u+v in the worst case then actually it doesn't matter whether A is playing at random or trying to thwart B; B has to assume that A might get lucky. So the following applies without modification, as far as finding B's strategy goes, to the case where B is trying to optimize for the worst case and A is playing randomly.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
[EDITED to add:] Some time after I wrote the above, OP edited the question to specify that A chooses at random. If B is trying to minimize u+v in the worst case then actually it doesn't matter whether A is playing at random or trying to thwart B; B has to assume that A might get lucky. So the following applies without modification, as far as finding B's strategy goes, to the case where B is trying to optimize for the worst case and A is playing randomly.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
edited Dec 19 at 0:31
answered Dec 16 at 13:58
Gareth McCaughan♦
60.4k3151234
60.4k3151234
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:58
1. Where does the2(x-1)
in your equation come from? 2. The worst result when choosingx = 4
is9
. Example:x = 4
,n = 1
, =>u = 3
=> A choosesy = x + u = 4 + 3 = 7
=>v = 6
=>u + v = 9
– Finni
Dec 16 at 21:17
I don't think I understand. You say "A chooses y = ..." but y is chosen by B not A, and in this situation B would choose y=4 not y=7. The total error would then be 3+3=6.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 17 at 12:35
A chooses randomly.
– gogators
Dec 18 at 16:52
1
When I wrote this answer, the question did not say that A chooses randomly.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 19 at 0:15
|
show 1 more comment
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:58
1. Where does the2(x-1)
in your equation come from? 2. The worst result when choosingx = 4
is9
. Example:x = 4
,n = 1
, =>u = 3
=> A choosesy = x + u = 4 + 3 = 7
=>v = 6
=>u + v = 9
– Finni
Dec 16 at 21:17
I don't think I understand. You say "A chooses y = ..." but y is chosen by B not A, and in this situation B would choose y=4 not y=7. The total error would then be 3+3=6.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 17 at 12:35
A chooses randomly.
– gogators
Dec 18 at 16:52
1
When I wrote this answer, the question did not say that A chooses randomly.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 19 at 0:15
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:58
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:58
1. Where does the
2(x-1)
in your equation come from? 2. The worst result when choosing x = 4
is 9
. Example: x = 4
, n = 1
, => u = 3
=> A chooses y = x + u = 4 + 3 = 7
=> v = 6
=> u + v = 9
– Finni
Dec 16 at 21:17
1. Where does the
2(x-1)
in your equation come from? 2. The worst result when choosing x = 4
is 9
. Example: x = 4
, n = 1
, => u = 3
=> A chooses y = x + u = 4 + 3 = 7
=> v = 6
=> u + v = 9
– Finni
Dec 16 at 21:17
I don't think I understand. You say "A chooses y = ..." but y is chosen by B not A, and in this situation B would choose y=4 not y=7. The total error would then be 3+3=6.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 17 at 12:35
I don't think I understand. You say "A chooses y = ..." but y is chosen by B not A, and in this situation B would choose y=4 not y=7. The total error would then be 3+3=6.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 17 at 12:35
A chooses randomly.
– gogators
Dec 18 at 16:52
A chooses randomly.
– gogators
Dec 18 at 16:52
1
1
When I wrote this answer, the question did not say that A chooses randomly.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 19 at 0:15
When I wrote this answer, the question did not say that A chooses randomly.
– Gareth McCaughan♦
Dec 19 at 0:15
|
show 1 more comment
@GarethMcCaughan gave the answer for when B is trying to minimize the maximum value of u+v, and A is doing the opposite.
I will assume that B is trying to minimize the average (ie. expected) value of u+v and A is trying to maximize that. [EDIT: OP pointed out this was not what we were supposed to assume. Oh well, I'll leave this answer up anyway.]
Then I claim:
A should flip a coin and choose either 1 or 10 for n. B should do likewise for x. u will be either 0 or 9, and then B will know what n is, so picks y=n.
The expected value of u+v is
4.5 (50% chance of u being either 0 or 9, and 100% chance of v being 0).
If A sticks to the strategy, B cannot reduce the expected value of u+v:
If B picks a different x, then the expected value of u does not change: 50% chance it is 10-x and 50% chance it is x-1, expected value 4.5, and v obviously can't be less than 0, so there can't be any improvement for B.
And B randomizing between different values of x, all of which give the same expected result, will give the same expected result.
If B sticks to the strategy, A cannot increase the expected value of u+v:
Similar logic for A says if A picks a different n, the expected value of u is still 4.5, and B will still know what n is after u is revealed, so v will still be zero.
(aka "Nash equilibrium")
Why is the chance of u being either 0 or 9 50%? Isn't it 1/10 for 0 and for 9 and all the numbers between respectively?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:04
@Finni - both A and B are flipping a coin and picking the extreme values.
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:05
Wow. I just realized that is indeed the best strategy, assuming that A does not pick randomly. That surprised me, actually... (Even though we do not know wether this strategy is just better than picking randomly, or if it is the best strategy for A) So you get my +1, but in the comments I stated that we assume A does pick randomly, which is why I cannot accept your quite unexpected (at least for me) discovery as the solution.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:15
@Finni ok I see :-) perhaps you could edit that comment into the question?
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:21
add a comment |
@GarethMcCaughan gave the answer for when B is trying to minimize the maximum value of u+v, and A is doing the opposite.
I will assume that B is trying to minimize the average (ie. expected) value of u+v and A is trying to maximize that. [EDIT: OP pointed out this was not what we were supposed to assume. Oh well, I'll leave this answer up anyway.]
Then I claim:
A should flip a coin and choose either 1 or 10 for n. B should do likewise for x. u will be either 0 or 9, and then B will know what n is, so picks y=n.
The expected value of u+v is
4.5 (50% chance of u being either 0 or 9, and 100% chance of v being 0).
If A sticks to the strategy, B cannot reduce the expected value of u+v:
If B picks a different x, then the expected value of u does not change: 50% chance it is 10-x and 50% chance it is x-1, expected value 4.5, and v obviously can't be less than 0, so there can't be any improvement for B.
And B randomizing between different values of x, all of which give the same expected result, will give the same expected result.
If B sticks to the strategy, A cannot increase the expected value of u+v:
Similar logic for A says if A picks a different n, the expected value of u is still 4.5, and B will still know what n is after u is revealed, so v will still be zero.
(aka "Nash equilibrium")
Why is the chance of u being either 0 or 9 50%? Isn't it 1/10 for 0 and for 9 and all the numbers between respectively?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:04
@Finni - both A and B are flipping a coin and picking the extreme values.
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:05
Wow. I just realized that is indeed the best strategy, assuming that A does not pick randomly. That surprised me, actually... (Even though we do not know wether this strategy is just better than picking randomly, or if it is the best strategy for A) So you get my +1, but in the comments I stated that we assume A does pick randomly, which is why I cannot accept your quite unexpected (at least for me) discovery as the solution.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:15
@Finni ok I see :-) perhaps you could edit that comment into the question?
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:21
add a comment |
@GarethMcCaughan gave the answer for when B is trying to minimize the maximum value of u+v, and A is doing the opposite.
I will assume that B is trying to minimize the average (ie. expected) value of u+v and A is trying to maximize that. [EDIT: OP pointed out this was not what we were supposed to assume. Oh well, I'll leave this answer up anyway.]
Then I claim:
A should flip a coin and choose either 1 or 10 for n. B should do likewise for x. u will be either 0 or 9, and then B will know what n is, so picks y=n.
The expected value of u+v is
4.5 (50% chance of u being either 0 or 9, and 100% chance of v being 0).
If A sticks to the strategy, B cannot reduce the expected value of u+v:
If B picks a different x, then the expected value of u does not change: 50% chance it is 10-x and 50% chance it is x-1, expected value 4.5, and v obviously can't be less than 0, so there can't be any improvement for B.
And B randomizing between different values of x, all of which give the same expected result, will give the same expected result.
If B sticks to the strategy, A cannot increase the expected value of u+v:
Similar logic for A says if A picks a different n, the expected value of u is still 4.5, and B will still know what n is after u is revealed, so v will still be zero.
(aka "Nash equilibrium")
@GarethMcCaughan gave the answer for when B is trying to minimize the maximum value of u+v, and A is doing the opposite.
I will assume that B is trying to minimize the average (ie. expected) value of u+v and A is trying to maximize that. [EDIT: OP pointed out this was not what we were supposed to assume. Oh well, I'll leave this answer up anyway.]
Then I claim:
A should flip a coin and choose either 1 or 10 for n. B should do likewise for x. u will be either 0 or 9, and then B will know what n is, so picks y=n.
The expected value of u+v is
4.5 (50% chance of u being either 0 or 9, and 100% chance of v being 0).
If A sticks to the strategy, B cannot reduce the expected value of u+v:
If B picks a different x, then the expected value of u does not change: 50% chance it is 10-x and 50% chance it is x-1, expected value 4.5, and v obviously can't be less than 0, so there can't be any improvement for B.
And B randomizing between different values of x, all of which give the same expected result, will give the same expected result.
If B sticks to the strategy, A cannot increase the expected value of u+v:
Similar logic for A says if A picks a different n, the expected value of u is still 4.5, and B will still know what n is after u is revealed, so v will still be zero.
(aka "Nash equilibrium")
edited Dec 16 at 20:29
answered Dec 16 at 20:00
deep thought
2,6111734
2,6111734
Why is the chance of u being either 0 or 9 50%? Isn't it 1/10 for 0 and for 9 and all the numbers between respectively?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:04
@Finni - both A and B are flipping a coin and picking the extreme values.
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:05
Wow. I just realized that is indeed the best strategy, assuming that A does not pick randomly. That surprised me, actually... (Even though we do not know wether this strategy is just better than picking randomly, or if it is the best strategy for A) So you get my +1, but in the comments I stated that we assume A does pick randomly, which is why I cannot accept your quite unexpected (at least for me) discovery as the solution.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:15
@Finni ok I see :-) perhaps you could edit that comment into the question?
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:21
add a comment |
Why is the chance of u being either 0 or 9 50%? Isn't it 1/10 for 0 and for 9 and all the numbers between respectively?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:04
@Finni - both A and B are flipping a coin and picking the extreme values.
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:05
Wow. I just realized that is indeed the best strategy, assuming that A does not pick randomly. That surprised me, actually... (Even though we do not know wether this strategy is just better than picking randomly, or if it is the best strategy for A) So you get my +1, but in the comments I stated that we assume A does pick randomly, which is why I cannot accept your quite unexpected (at least for me) discovery as the solution.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:15
@Finni ok I see :-) perhaps you could edit that comment into the question?
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:21
Why is the chance of u being either 0 or 9 50%? Isn't it 1/10 for 0 and for 9 and all the numbers between respectively?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:04
Why is the chance of u being either 0 or 9 50%? Isn't it 1/10 for 0 and for 9 and all the numbers between respectively?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:04
@Finni - both A and B are flipping a coin and picking the extreme values.
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:05
@Finni - both A and B are flipping a coin and picking the extreme values.
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:05
Wow. I just realized that is indeed the best strategy, assuming that A does not pick randomly. That surprised me, actually... (Even though we do not know wether this strategy is just better than picking randomly, or if it is the best strategy for A) So you get my +1, but in the comments I stated that we assume A does pick randomly, which is why I cannot accept your quite unexpected (at least for me) discovery as the solution.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:15
Wow. I just realized that is indeed the best strategy, assuming that A does not pick randomly. That surprised me, actually... (Even though we do not know wether this strategy is just better than picking randomly, or if it is the best strategy for A) So you get my +1, but in the comments I stated that we assume A does pick randomly, which is why I cannot accept your quite unexpected (at least for me) discovery as the solution.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 20:15
@Finni ok I see :-) perhaps you could edit that comment into the question?
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:21
@Finni ok I see :-) perhaps you could edit that comment into the question?
– deep thought
Dec 16 at 20:21
add a comment |
If you choose
$1$ or $10$, you will find the next number for sure,
so in average,
you would have $4.5$ expected value which is found all distances between chosen corner number to all numbers.
as a formula from $1$,
$frac0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+910=4.5$,
How did I find this value?
It is taking every possibilities of A's chose and find the average value. (in other words the expected value/outcome of the game since A randomly chooses the number of him/her.) For this particular example above, we choose $1$ (it could be $10$ too, because of symmetry, it doesnt matter) and if A randomly chooses $1$, the distance would be 0, and since you found the number, our S will be 0. If A choose $2$, our $u$ will be $1$ and since we know what I guessed after this distance value, the next guess's distance (which is $v$) would be 0, and so on. so if we add all (u+v) distances and take the average of them, it will give us the expected value of choosing $1$/$10$ of the game.
So
From now on, the order of the number from left to right represents the $u+v$ value for $1$ to $10$, respectively.
If you choose
$2$ or $9$, If the distance from B's numbers to A's is more than 2 we can apply the same rule above, but if the distance is just $1$, you need to stick the original number again for your guess, because the expected value trying to guess the number would not change the average expected value. For example, let say B chooses $2$ and A chooses $1$, on first guess, $u$ will be 1, then B will know that A's number is $1$ or $3$ but the chance of the number being $1$ or $3$ is actually the same, if B choose $3$, it could cost $2$ points to him, or if he B choose $1$, 0 points. Since the chances are the same, choosing $2$ again would be the same thing.
so
$frac2+0+2+2+3+4+5+6+7+810=3.9$, so choosing $2$ or $9$ makes more sense :)
let's try
$3$ or $8$, which are again mirror, with the same logic,
we get
$frac4+2+0+2+4+3+4+5+6+710=3.7$
which is better than the previous chosen couple.
let's try now
$4$ or $7$,
we get
$frac6+4+2+0+2+4+6+4+5+610=3.9$
which is worse average than before.
lastly,
$5$ and $6$, (chosing distance from $5$)
and we get
$frac8+6+4+2+0+2+4+6+8+510=4.5$
so as a result, we can conclude that
Choosing $3$ or $8$ is the most optimal chosen number for this game, because strategy aftering getting equidistance two possibilities and using any strategy after that would not change the expected outcome value, so just sticking is actually the same in those cases.
Can you explain the terms in your equations?
– gogators
Dec 17 at 15:24
@gogators sure, editing now.
– Oray
Dec 17 at 16:55
add a comment |
If you choose
$1$ or $10$, you will find the next number for sure,
so in average,
you would have $4.5$ expected value which is found all distances between chosen corner number to all numbers.
as a formula from $1$,
$frac0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+910=4.5$,
How did I find this value?
It is taking every possibilities of A's chose and find the average value. (in other words the expected value/outcome of the game since A randomly chooses the number of him/her.) For this particular example above, we choose $1$ (it could be $10$ too, because of symmetry, it doesnt matter) and if A randomly chooses $1$, the distance would be 0, and since you found the number, our S will be 0. If A choose $2$, our $u$ will be $1$ and since we know what I guessed after this distance value, the next guess's distance (which is $v$) would be 0, and so on. so if we add all (u+v) distances and take the average of them, it will give us the expected value of choosing $1$/$10$ of the game.
So
From now on, the order of the number from left to right represents the $u+v$ value for $1$ to $10$, respectively.
If you choose
$2$ or $9$, If the distance from B's numbers to A's is more than 2 we can apply the same rule above, but if the distance is just $1$, you need to stick the original number again for your guess, because the expected value trying to guess the number would not change the average expected value. For example, let say B chooses $2$ and A chooses $1$, on first guess, $u$ will be 1, then B will know that A's number is $1$ or $3$ but the chance of the number being $1$ or $3$ is actually the same, if B choose $3$, it could cost $2$ points to him, or if he B choose $1$, 0 points. Since the chances are the same, choosing $2$ again would be the same thing.
so
$frac2+0+2+2+3+4+5+6+7+810=3.9$, so choosing $2$ or $9$ makes more sense :)
let's try
$3$ or $8$, which are again mirror, with the same logic,
we get
$frac4+2+0+2+4+3+4+5+6+710=3.7$
which is better than the previous chosen couple.
let's try now
$4$ or $7$,
we get
$frac6+4+2+0+2+4+6+4+5+610=3.9$
which is worse average than before.
lastly,
$5$ and $6$, (chosing distance from $5$)
and we get
$frac8+6+4+2+0+2+4+6+8+510=4.5$
so as a result, we can conclude that
Choosing $3$ or $8$ is the most optimal chosen number for this game, because strategy aftering getting equidistance two possibilities and using any strategy after that would not change the expected outcome value, so just sticking is actually the same in those cases.
Can you explain the terms in your equations?
– gogators
Dec 17 at 15:24
@gogators sure, editing now.
– Oray
Dec 17 at 16:55
add a comment |
If you choose
$1$ or $10$, you will find the next number for sure,
so in average,
you would have $4.5$ expected value which is found all distances between chosen corner number to all numbers.
as a formula from $1$,
$frac0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+910=4.5$,
How did I find this value?
It is taking every possibilities of A's chose and find the average value. (in other words the expected value/outcome of the game since A randomly chooses the number of him/her.) For this particular example above, we choose $1$ (it could be $10$ too, because of symmetry, it doesnt matter) and if A randomly chooses $1$, the distance would be 0, and since you found the number, our S will be 0. If A choose $2$, our $u$ will be $1$ and since we know what I guessed after this distance value, the next guess's distance (which is $v$) would be 0, and so on. so if we add all (u+v) distances and take the average of them, it will give us the expected value of choosing $1$/$10$ of the game.
So
From now on, the order of the number from left to right represents the $u+v$ value for $1$ to $10$, respectively.
If you choose
$2$ or $9$, If the distance from B's numbers to A's is more than 2 we can apply the same rule above, but if the distance is just $1$, you need to stick the original number again for your guess, because the expected value trying to guess the number would not change the average expected value. For example, let say B chooses $2$ and A chooses $1$, on first guess, $u$ will be 1, then B will know that A's number is $1$ or $3$ but the chance of the number being $1$ or $3$ is actually the same, if B choose $3$, it could cost $2$ points to him, or if he B choose $1$, 0 points. Since the chances are the same, choosing $2$ again would be the same thing.
so
$frac2+0+2+2+3+4+5+6+7+810=3.9$, so choosing $2$ or $9$ makes more sense :)
let's try
$3$ or $8$, which are again mirror, with the same logic,
we get
$frac4+2+0+2+4+3+4+5+6+710=3.7$
which is better than the previous chosen couple.
let's try now
$4$ or $7$,
we get
$frac6+4+2+0+2+4+6+4+5+610=3.9$
which is worse average than before.
lastly,
$5$ and $6$, (chosing distance from $5$)
and we get
$frac8+6+4+2+0+2+4+6+8+510=4.5$
so as a result, we can conclude that
Choosing $3$ or $8$ is the most optimal chosen number for this game, because strategy aftering getting equidistance two possibilities and using any strategy after that would not change the expected outcome value, so just sticking is actually the same in those cases.
If you choose
$1$ or $10$, you will find the next number for sure,
so in average,
you would have $4.5$ expected value which is found all distances between chosen corner number to all numbers.
as a formula from $1$,
$frac0+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+910=4.5$,
How did I find this value?
It is taking every possibilities of A's chose and find the average value. (in other words the expected value/outcome of the game since A randomly chooses the number of him/her.) For this particular example above, we choose $1$ (it could be $10$ too, because of symmetry, it doesnt matter) and if A randomly chooses $1$, the distance would be 0, and since you found the number, our S will be 0. If A choose $2$, our $u$ will be $1$ and since we know what I guessed after this distance value, the next guess's distance (which is $v$) would be 0, and so on. so if we add all (u+v) distances and take the average of them, it will give us the expected value of choosing $1$/$10$ of the game.
So
From now on, the order of the number from left to right represents the $u+v$ value for $1$ to $10$, respectively.
If you choose
$2$ or $9$, If the distance from B's numbers to A's is more than 2 we can apply the same rule above, but if the distance is just $1$, you need to stick the original number again for your guess, because the expected value trying to guess the number would not change the average expected value. For example, let say B chooses $2$ and A chooses $1$, on first guess, $u$ will be 1, then B will know that A's number is $1$ or $3$ but the chance of the number being $1$ or $3$ is actually the same, if B choose $3$, it could cost $2$ points to him, or if he B choose $1$, 0 points. Since the chances are the same, choosing $2$ again would be the same thing.
so
$frac2+0+2+2+3+4+5+6+7+810=3.9$, so choosing $2$ or $9$ makes more sense :)
let's try
$3$ or $8$, which are again mirror, with the same logic,
we get
$frac4+2+0+2+4+3+4+5+6+710=3.7$
which is better than the previous chosen couple.
let's try now
$4$ or $7$,
we get
$frac6+4+2+0+2+4+6+4+5+610=3.9$
which is worse average than before.
lastly,
$5$ and $6$, (chosing distance from $5$)
and we get
$frac8+6+4+2+0+2+4+6+8+510=4.5$
so as a result, we can conclude that
Choosing $3$ or $8$ is the most optimal chosen number for this game, because strategy aftering getting equidistance two possibilities and using any strategy after that would not change the expected outcome value, so just sticking is actually the same in those cases.
edited Dec 17 at 17:05
answered Dec 17 at 8:41
Oray
15.6k435149
15.6k435149
Can you explain the terms in your equations?
– gogators
Dec 17 at 15:24
@gogators sure, editing now.
– Oray
Dec 17 at 16:55
add a comment |
Can you explain the terms in your equations?
– gogators
Dec 17 at 15:24
@gogators sure, editing now.
– Oray
Dec 17 at 16:55
Can you explain the terms in your equations?
– gogators
Dec 17 at 15:24
Can you explain the terms in your equations?
– gogators
Dec 17 at 15:24
@gogators sure, editing now.
– Oray
Dec 17 at 16:55
@gogators sure, editing now.
– Oray
Dec 17 at 16:55
add a comment |
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:59
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:04
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
Dec 16 at 13:09
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:15
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:57
add a comment |
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:59
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:04
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
Dec 16 at 13:09
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:15
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:57
add a comment |
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
edited Dec 16 at 13:11
answered Dec 16 at 12:52
shA.t
21137
21137
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:59
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:04
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
Dec 16 at 13:09
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:15
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:57
add a comment |
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:59
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:04
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
Dec 16 at 13:09
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:15
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:57
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:59
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:59
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:04
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:04
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
Dec 16 at 13:09
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
Dec 16 at 13:09
n ≠ u+x
! instead n= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x
, as n
might be 10. For example: If x
is 5, and n
is 9, u
is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u
and x - u
for trying to minimize v
, or y = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:15
n ≠ u+x
! instead n= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x
, as n
might be 10. For example: If x
is 5, and n
is 9, u
is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u
and x - u
for trying to minimize v
, or y = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.– Finni
Dec 16 at 13:15
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:57
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
Dec 16 at 16:57
add a comment |
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
1
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
Dec 16 at 14:00
add a comment |
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
1
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
Dec 16 at 14:00
add a comment |
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
edited Dec 16 at 14:13
answered Dec 16 at 13:23
JonMark Perry
17.4k63483
17.4k63483
1
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
Dec 16 at 14:00
add a comment |
1
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
Dec 16 at 14:00
1
1
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean
u
and v
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable– Finni
Dec 16 at 14:00
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean
u
and v
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable– Finni
Dec 16 at 14:00
add a comment |
First, let's note that:
$X$ is given as a completely random number. B has no idea of what A's number could be at this time.
Also that:
The probabilities involved in choosing $1$ are the same involved in choosing $10$. The probabilities for $2$ are the same as for $9$. $3$ with $8$. $4$ with $7$. $5$ with $6$. So, we need to analyze only $5$ cases of the initial analysis of $X$ and the other five are symmetric.
We will need to evoke a concept:
Expected value is the topic at statistics that will help us. The expected value of a variable $M$ is represented as $E(M)$. In this problem, we are looking for $E(U + V)$, which is the value that we want to minimize.
Let's start with 1:
If $X = 1$, then each value in $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. The error is then $U$. Since each value of the interval $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$ (and also $U + V$), then:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (10% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 10$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 2:
If $X = 2$, then each value in $[2, 8]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ has $20%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 2$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $70%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $3$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 8]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 9$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 3:
If $X = 3$, then each value in $[3, 7]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ and $2$ have $20%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 3$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $50%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $4$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 7]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 7) \ = & 10% times 37 \ = & 3.7 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 8$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 4:
If $X = 4$, then each value in $[1, 3]$ has $20%$ and each value in $[4, 6]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 4$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $30%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 5]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 9) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 7$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Finally:
If $X = 5$, then each value in $[1, 4]$ has $20%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ and $5$ also have $10%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U = 5$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $4$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $8$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 4$, guess once more. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $9$. One will give us $U + V = 4$ and the other $U + V = 12$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 6]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$ and $10%$ for $U + V = 12$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 9) + (10% times 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 6$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
General rule:
After B chooses some $X$ and was given some $U$, this is what B should do:
1. Compute $P = X + U$ and $Q = X - U$.
2. If $P = Q$, then $Y = P$.
3. If only one of $P in [0, 9]$ and $Q in [0, 9]$ is true, choose that one as $Y$.
4. Otherwise, guess either $P$ or $Q$ as the answer. One is a good guess and the other is a terrible one. If you prefer to not be cold nor hot and stay warm, you might just choose a middle ground and make $Y = X$.
The best numbers to choose as $X$ are:
$3$ and $8$. Their expected value is lower than the other choices.
add a comment |
First, let's note that:
$X$ is given as a completely random number. B has no idea of what A's number could be at this time.
Also that:
The probabilities involved in choosing $1$ are the same involved in choosing $10$. The probabilities for $2$ are the same as for $9$. $3$ with $8$. $4$ with $7$. $5$ with $6$. So, we need to analyze only $5$ cases of the initial analysis of $X$ and the other five are symmetric.
We will need to evoke a concept:
Expected value is the topic at statistics that will help us. The expected value of a variable $M$ is represented as $E(M)$. In this problem, we are looking for $E(U + V)$, which is the value that we want to minimize.
Let's start with 1:
If $X = 1$, then each value in $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. The error is then $U$. Since each value of the interval $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$ (and also $U + V$), then:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (10% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 10$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 2:
If $X = 2$, then each value in $[2, 8]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ has $20%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 2$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $70%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $3$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 8]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 9$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 3:
If $X = 3$, then each value in $[3, 7]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ and $2$ have $20%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 3$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $50%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $4$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 7]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 7) \ = & 10% times 37 \ = & 3.7 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 8$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 4:
If $X = 4$, then each value in $[1, 3]$ has $20%$ and each value in $[4, 6]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 4$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $30%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 5]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 9) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 7$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Finally:
If $X = 5$, then each value in $[1, 4]$ has $20%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ and $5$ also have $10%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U = 5$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $4$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $8$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 4$, guess once more. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $9$. One will give us $U + V = 4$ and the other $U + V = 12$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 6]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$ and $10%$ for $U + V = 12$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 9) + (10% times 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 6$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
General rule:
After B chooses some $X$ and was given some $U$, this is what B should do:
1. Compute $P = X + U$ and $Q = X - U$.
2. If $P = Q$, then $Y = P$.
3. If only one of $P in [0, 9]$ and $Q in [0, 9]$ is true, choose that one as $Y$.
4. Otherwise, guess either $P$ or $Q$ as the answer. One is a good guess and the other is a terrible one. If you prefer to not be cold nor hot and stay warm, you might just choose a middle ground and make $Y = X$.
The best numbers to choose as $X$ are:
$3$ and $8$. Their expected value is lower than the other choices.
add a comment |
First, let's note that:
$X$ is given as a completely random number. B has no idea of what A's number could be at this time.
Also that:
The probabilities involved in choosing $1$ are the same involved in choosing $10$. The probabilities for $2$ are the same as for $9$. $3$ with $8$. $4$ with $7$. $5$ with $6$. So, we need to analyze only $5$ cases of the initial analysis of $X$ and the other five are symmetric.
We will need to evoke a concept:
Expected value is the topic at statistics that will help us. The expected value of a variable $M$ is represented as $E(M)$. In this problem, we are looking for $E(U + V)$, which is the value that we want to minimize.
Let's start with 1:
If $X = 1$, then each value in $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. The error is then $U$. Since each value of the interval $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$ (and also $U + V$), then:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (10% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 10$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 2:
If $X = 2$, then each value in $[2, 8]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ has $20%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 2$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $70%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $3$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 8]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 9$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 3:
If $X = 3$, then each value in $[3, 7]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ and $2$ have $20%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 3$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $50%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $4$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 7]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 7) \ = & 10% times 37 \ = & 3.7 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 8$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 4:
If $X = 4$, then each value in $[1, 3]$ has $20%$ and each value in $[4, 6]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 4$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $30%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 5]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 9) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 7$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Finally:
If $X = 5$, then each value in $[1, 4]$ has $20%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ and $5$ also have $10%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U = 5$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $4$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $8$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 4$, guess once more. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $9$. One will give us $U + V = 4$ and the other $U + V = 12$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 6]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$ and $10%$ for $U + V = 12$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 9) + (10% times 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 6$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
General rule:
After B chooses some $X$ and was given some $U$, this is what B should do:
1. Compute $P = X + U$ and $Q = X - U$.
2. If $P = Q$, then $Y = P$.
3. If only one of $P in [0, 9]$ and $Q in [0, 9]$ is true, choose that one as $Y$.
4. Otherwise, guess either $P$ or $Q$ as the answer. One is a good guess and the other is a terrible one. If you prefer to not be cold nor hot and stay warm, you might just choose a middle ground and make $Y = X$.
The best numbers to choose as $X$ are:
$3$ and $8$. Their expected value is lower than the other choices.
First, let's note that:
$X$ is given as a completely random number. B has no idea of what A's number could be at this time.
Also that:
The probabilities involved in choosing $1$ are the same involved in choosing $10$. The probabilities for $2$ are the same as for $9$. $3$ with $8$. $4$ with $7$. $5$ with $6$. So, we need to analyze only $5$ cases of the initial analysis of $X$ and the other five are symmetric.
We will need to evoke a concept:
Expected value is the topic at statistics that will help us. The expected value of a variable $M$ is represented as $E(M)$. In this problem, we are looking for $E(U + V)$, which is the value that we want to minimize.
Let's start with 1:
If $X = 1$, then each value in $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. The error is then $U$. Since each value of the interval $[0, 9]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$ (and also $U + V$), then:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (10% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 10$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 2:
If $X = 2$, then each value in $[2, 8]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ has $20%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 2$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $70%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $3$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 8]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 7) + (10% times 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 9$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 3:
If $X = 3$, then each value in $[3, 7]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$. $1$ and $2$ have $20%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 3$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $50%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $4$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 7]$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 7) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 7) \ = & 10% times 37 \ = & 3.7 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 8$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Now, 4:
If $X = 4$, then each value in $[1, 3]$ has $20%$ and each value in $[4, 6]$ has $10%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ also have $10%$.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U ge 4$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $30%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $5$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 6$ and $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 5]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + \ & (10% times 4) + (10% times 5) + (20% times 6) + (10% times 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + (2 times 6) + 9) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 9) \ = & 10% times 39 \ = & 3.9 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 7$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
Finally:
If $X = 5$, then each value in $[1, 4]$ has $20%$ of probability of being $U$. $0$ and $5$ also have $10%$ each.
If $U = 0$, that is great, Make $Y = X$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening. So $U + V = 0$ in $10%$ of the cases.
If $U = 5$, fine. Make $Y = X + U$ and then $V = 0$. This has $10%$ of probability of happening.
If $U = 1$, then we'll need to guess. $Y$ could either be $4$ or $6$. One will give us $U + V = 1$ and the other $U + V = 3$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 2$, then we'll also need to guess. $Y$ could either be $3$ or $7$. One will give us $U + V = 2$ and the other $U + V = 6$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 3$, then we'll once again will need to guess. $Y$ could either be $2$ or $8$. One will give us $U + V = 3$ and the other $U + V = 9$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
If $U = 4$, guess once more. $Y$ could either be $1$ or $9$. One will give us $U + V = 4$ and the other $U + V = 12$ with $10%$ of probability for each one.
In the end, we have $20%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 3$, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V$ as any other value in the interval $[0, 6]$. And also, $10%$ of probability of getting $U + V = 9$ and $10%$ for $U + V = 12$. So, the expected value is:
$$beginarrayrl E(U + V) = & (10% times 0) + (10% times 1) + (10% times 2) + (20% times 3) + (10% times 4) + \ & (10% times 5) + (10% times 6) + (10% times 9) + (10% times 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + (2 times 3) + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times (0 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 9 + 12) \ = & 10% times 45 \ = & 4.5 endarray$$
The same reasoning could be applied for $X = 6$, but using $Y = X - U$ instead of $Y = X + U$.
General rule:
After B chooses some $X$ and was given some $U$, this is what B should do:
1. Compute $P = X + U$ and $Q = X - U$.
2. If $P = Q$, then $Y = P$.
3. If only one of $P in [0, 9]$ and $Q in [0, 9]$ is true, choose that one as $Y$.
4. Otherwise, guess either $P$ or $Q$ as the answer. One is a good guess and the other is a terrible one. If you prefer to not be cold nor hot and stay warm, you might just choose a middle ground and make $Y = X$.
The best numbers to choose as $X$ are:
$3$ and $8$. Their expected value is lower than the other choices.
edited Dec 18 at 8:39
answered Dec 18 at 8:26
Victor Stafusa
6,25512249
6,25512249
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Puzzling Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpuzzling.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f77516%2ffinnis-tricky-game%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
Dec 16 at 12:43
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:53
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 12:54
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
Dec 16 at 15:42
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
Dec 16 at 15:48