Can a paralyzed creature targeted by an Evocation Wizard's Sculpt Spells feature actually succeed a Dex save?
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Say a friendly barbarian is currently paralyzed. Part of the description of the paralyzed condition says:
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Its friend, the School of Evocation wizard, casts a fireball in the room, using its Sculpt Spells feature to protect the Barbarian:
When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spellâÂÂs level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
Fireball requires a Dex save, but paralyzed creatures normally fail Dex saves; you can easily see the conundrum.
Does the Barbarian fail its Dex save?
dnd-5e spells wizard saving-throw conditions
add a comment |Â
up vote
21
down vote
favorite
Say a friendly barbarian is currently paralyzed. Part of the description of the paralyzed condition says:
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Its friend, the School of Evocation wizard, casts a fireball in the room, using its Sculpt Spells feature to protect the Barbarian:
When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spellâÂÂs level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
Fireball requires a Dex save, but paralyzed creatures normally fail Dex saves; you can easily see the conundrum.
Does the Barbarian fail its Dex save?
dnd-5e spells wizard saving-throw conditions
add a comment |Â
up vote
21
down vote
favorite
up vote
21
down vote
favorite
Say a friendly barbarian is currently paralyzed. Part of the description of the paralyzed condition says:
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Its friend, the School of Evocation wizard, casts a fireball in the room, using its Sculpt Spells feature to protect the Barbarian:
When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spellâÂÂs level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
Fireball requires a Dex save, but paralyzed creatures normally fail Dex saves; you can easily see the conundrum.
Does the Barbarian fail its Dex save?
dnd-5e spells wizard saving-throw conditions
Say a friendly barbarian is currently paralyzed. Part of the description of the paralyzed condition says:
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
Its friend, the School of Evocation wizard, casts a fireball in the room, using its Sculpt Spells feature to protect the Barbarian:
When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spellâÂÂs level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
Fireball requires a Dex save, but paralyzed creatures normally fail Dex saves; you can easily see the conundrum.
Does the Barbarian fail its Dex save?
dnd-5e spells wizard saving-throw conditions
dnd-5e spells wizard saving-throw conditions
edited 30 mins ago
V2Blast
17.5k247112
17.5k247112
asked 7 hours ago
Alex Millette
1,740827
1,740827
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add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
31
down vote
While this is two contrary rules exceptions, and therefore ambiguous, from a story perspective, Sculpt Spell is intended to represent the evoker guiding their damaging spell to avoid the target, so it doesn't matter if they actively dodge the attack or not; it just doesn't hit them (or at least has the minimum possible effect). So I would say Sculpt Spell overrides the condition -- the paralyzed character takes no damage, because the fireball just isn't intruding into their space.
The argument could also be made that these are 'simultaneous effects' as discussed on page 77 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything, in which case the character whose turn it is -- the caster -- chooses which effect happens first, so the 'sculpt spell' effect can be the last one, overriding all previous effects.
But I think the conceptual storytelling aspect should be enough to make a decision in this case.
3
Specificity would agree with you... most creatures can have the condition of Paralysis placed upon them but much fewer, in theory, would be able to use Sculpt Spell. Specific beats general.
â Slagmoth
7 hours ago
1
The âÂÂintentâ of the Sculpt Spell is to control the area of effect from the spell to spare an ally from most of the damage. As well as the Xanathar reference and Slagmoth comment are compelling enough to save your barbarian.
â XAQT78
7 hours ago
1
WoTC is doing a wonderful job of shaping Dungeons the Gathering little by little. The active player has control over the effect stack now.
â Mindwin
6 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
The barbarian is fine
While it will be difficult to argue if the wizard feature or the paralyzed feature are more 'specific', the intent is obviously that the wizard is sculpting the spell in such a way that the damage goes around the target.
It doesn't matter how bad the target is at dodging, they will always dodge it, so why would it matter if they're physically restrained? The spell isn't trying to hit them, it's sculpted around them.
The reason that the sculpt spell feature says characters automatically succeed on the save, instead of stating that creatures are simply unaffected, is because this might cause other weird interactions.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Specific Beats General: Sculpt Wins.
Generally, paralyzed creatures automatically fail Str and Dex saves.
Paralysis is a general condition. There are a myriad of ways creatures can end up with this condition.
The sculpt spell feature is more specific.
Sculpt spell specifies single instances where the target creatures always succeed. It defines a narrower scope of targets and circumstances.
1
I'm not sure the Paralysis qualifies as the general. The general is you roll to save. Both Paralysis and Sculpt present specific instances for doing something else.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
1
@NautArch paralysis is listed in the conditions list. The opening of that list states that the conditions can come about in many ways. That's more widespread or applicable to multiple things than sculpt spell.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
I'm not sure that's enough of a differentiation for me. On one hand, you've got a specific condition, on the other hand, you've got a specific ability. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your methodology, but I think it's more your methodology than game methodology.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
@NautArch, I'm going by the mundane English definitions of general. Applies to more things is more general. The rules for the paralysis condition apply to more things and more broadly than the sculpt feature. Also, does the game system specify a methodology for determining more or less general? I was assuming that was deferring to the common English.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
WoTC don't really explain how to determine general over specific. But I'm always wary of using plain english personally. Game mechanics override plain english, and creating different levels of 'specificity' is more than I'm willing to do. I just look at general rule vs specific outlier. And both of those mechanics are outliers.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
31
down vote
While this is two contrary rules exceptions, and therefore ambiguous, from a story perspective, Sculpt Spell is intended to represent the evoker guiding their damaging spell to avoid the target, so it doesn't matter if they actively dodge the attack or not; it just doesn't hit them (or at least has the minimum possible effect). So I would say Sculpt Spell overrides the condition -- the paralyzed character takes no damage, because the fireball just isn't intruding into their space.
The argument could also be made that these are 'simultaneous effects' as discussed on page 77 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything, in which case the character whose turn it is -- the caster -- chooses which effect happens first, so the 'sculpt spell' effect can be the last one, overriding all previous effects.
But I think the conceptual storytelling aspect should be enough to make a decision in this case.
3
Specificity would agree with you... most creatures can have the condition of Paralysis placed upon them but much fewer, in theory, would be able to use Sculpt Spell. Specific beats general.
â Slagmoth
7 hours ago
1
The âÂÂintentâ of the Sculpt Spell is to control the area of effect from the spell to spare an ally from most of the damage. As well as the Xanathar reference and Slagmoth comment are compelling enough to save your barbarian.
â XAQT78
7 hours ago
1
WoTC is doing a wonderful job of shaping Dungeons the Gathering little by little. The active player has control over the effect stack now.
â Mindwin
6 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
31
down vote
While this is two contrary rules exceptions, and therefore ambiguous, from a story perspective, Sculpt Spell is intended to represent the evoker guiding their damaging spell to avoid the target, so it doesn't matter if they actively dodge the attack or not; it just doesn't hit them (or at least has the minimum possible effect). So I would say Sculpt Spell overrides the condition -- the paralyzed character takes no damage, because the fireball just isn't intruding into their space.
The argument could also be made that these are 'simultaneous effects' as discussed on page 77 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything, in which case the character whose turn it is -- the caster -- chooses which effect happens first, so the 'sculpt spell' effect can be the last one, overriding all previous effects.
But I think the conceptual storytelling aspect should be enough to make a decision in this case.
3
Specificity would agree with you... most creatures can have the condition of Paralysis placed upon them but much fewer, in theory, would be able to use Sculpt Spell. Specific beats general.
â Slagmoth
7 hours ago
1
The âÂÂintentâ of the Sculpt Spell is to control the area of effect from the spell to spare an ally from most of the damage. As well as the Xanathar reference and Slagmoth comment are compelling enough to save your barbarian.
â XAQT78
7 hours ago
1
WoTC is doing a wonderful job of shaping Dungeons the Gathering little by little. The active player has control over the effect stack now.
â Mindwin
6 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
31
down vote
up vote
31
down vote
While this is two contrary rules exceptions, and therefore ambiguous, from a story perspective, Sculpt Spell is intended to represent the evoker guiding their damaging spell to avoid the target, so it doesn't matter if they actively dodge the attack or not; it just doesn't hit them (or at least has the minimum possible effect). So I would say Sculpt Spell overrides the condition -- the paralyzed character takes no damage, because the fireball just isn't intruding into their space.
The argument could also be made that these are 'simultaneous effects' as discussed on page 77 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything, in which case the character whose turn it is -- the caster -- chooses which effect happens first, so the 'sculpt spell' effect can be the last one, overriding all previous effects.
But I think the conceptual storytelling aspect should be enough to make a decision in this case.
While this is two contrary rules exceptions, and therefore ambiguous, from a story perspective, Sculpt Spell is intended to represent the evoker guiding their damaging spell to avoid the target, so it doesn't matter if they actively dodge the attack or not; it just doesn't hit them (or at least has the minimum possible effect). So I would say Sculpt Spell overrides the condition -- the paralyzed character takes no damage, because the fireball just isn't intruding into their space.
The argument could also be made that these are 'simultaneous effects' as discussed on page 77 of Xanathar's Guide to Everything, in which case the character whose turn it is -- the caster -- chooses which effect happens first, so the 'sculpt spell' effect can be the last one, overriding all previous effects.
But I think the conceptual storytelling aspect should be enough to make a decision in this case.
answered 7 hours ago
Darth Pseudonym
8,2241948
8,2241948
3
Specificity would agree with you... most creatures can have the condition of Paralysis placed upon them but much fewer, in theory, would be able to use Sculpt Spell. Specific beats general.
â Slagmoth
7 hours ago
1
The âÂÂintentâ of the Sculpt Spell is to control the area of effect from the spell to spare an ally from most of the damage. As well as the Xanathar reference and Slagmoth comment are compelling enough to save your barbarian.
â XAQT78
7 hours ago
1
WoTC is doing a wonderful job of shaping Dungeons the Gathering little by little. The active player has control over the effect stack now.
â Mindwin
6 hours ago
add a comment |Â
3
Specificity would agree with you... most creatures can have the condition of Paralysis placed upon them but much fewer, in theory, would be able to use Sculpt Spell. Specific beats general.
â Slagmoth
7 hours ago
1
The âÂÂintentâ of the Sculpt Spell is to control the area of effect from the spell to spare an ally from most of the damage. As well as the Xanathar reference and Slagmoth comment are compelling enough to save your barbarian.
â XAQT78
7 hours ago
1
WoTC is doing a wonderful job of shaping Dungeons the Gathering little by little. The active player has control over the effect stack now.
â Mindwin
6 hours ago
3
3
Specificity would agree with you... most creatures can have the condition of Paralysis placed upon them but much fewer, in theory, would be able to use Sculpt Spell. Specific beats general.
â Slagmoth
7 hours ago
Specificity would agree with you... most creatures can have the condition of Paralysis placed upon them but much fewer, in theory, would be able to use Sculpt Spell. Specific beats general.
â Slagmoth
7 hours ago
1
1
The âÂÂintentâ of the Sculpt Spell is to control the area of effect from the spell to spare an ally from most of the damage. As well as the Xanathar reference and Slagmoth comment are compelling enough to save your barbarian.
â XAQT78
7 hours ago
The âÂÂintentâ of the Sculpt Spell is to control the area of effect from the spell to spare an ally from most of the damage. As well as the Xanathar reference and Slagmoth comment are compelling enough to save your barbarian.
â XAQT78
7 hours ago
1
1
WoTC is doing a wonderful job of shaping Dungeons the Gathering little by little. The active player has control over the effect stack now.
â Mindwin
6 hours ago
WoTC is doing a wonderful job of shaping Dungeons the Gathering little by little. The active player has control over the effect stack now.
â Mindwin
6 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
The barbarian is fine
While it will be difficult to argue if the wizard feature or the paralyzed feature are more 'specific', the intent is obviously that the wizard is sculpting the spell in such a way that the damage goes around the target.
It doesn't matter how bad the target is at dodging, they will always dodge it, so why would it matter if they're physically restrained? The spell isn't trying to hit them, it's sculpted around them.
The reason that the sculpt spell feature says characters automatically succeed on the save, instead of stating that creatures are simply unaffected, is because this might cause other weird interactions.
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
The barbarian is fine
While it will be difficult to argue if the wizard feature or the paralyzed feature are more 'specific', the intent is obviously that the wizard is sculpting the spell in such a way that the damage goes around the target.
It doesn't matter how bad the target is at dodging, they will always dodge it, so why would it matter if they're physically restrained? The spell isn't trying to hit them, it's sculpted around them.
The reason that the sculpt spell feature says characters automatically succeed on the save, instead of stating that creatures are simply unaffected, is because this might cause other weird interactions.
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
The barbarian is fine
While it will be difficult to argue if the wizard feature or the paralyzed feature are more 'specific', the intent is obviously that the wizard is sculpting the spell in such a way that the damage goes around the target.
It doesn't matter how bad the target is at dodging, they will always dodge it, so why would it matter if they're physically restrained? The spell isn't trying to hit them, it's sculpted around them.
The reason that the sculpt spell feature says characters automatically succeed on the save, instead of stating that creatures are simply unaffected, is because this might cause other weird interactions.
The barbarian is fine
While it will be difficult to argue if the wizard feature or the paralyzed feature are more 'specific', the intent is obviously that the wizard is sculpting the spell in such a way that the damage goes around the target.
It doesn't matter how bad the target is at dodging, they will always dodge it, so why would it matter if they're physically restrained? The spell isn't trying to hit them, it's sculpted around them.
The reason that the sculpt spell feature says characters automatically succeed on the save, instead of stating that creatures are simply unaffected, is because this might cause other weird interactions.
edited 7 hours ago
ravery
6,3471949
6,3471949
answered 7 hours ago
Theik
10.7k4462
10.7k4462
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Specific Beats General: Sculpt Wins.
Generally, paralyzed creatures automatically fail Str and Dex saves.
Paralysis is a general condition. There are a myriad of ways creatures can end up with this condition.
The sculpt spell feature is more specific.
Sculpt spell specifies single instances where the target creatures always succeed. It defines a narrower scope of targets and circumstances.
1
I'm not sure the Paralysis qualifies as the general. The general is you roll to save. Both Paralysis and Sculpt present specific instances for doing something else.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
1
@NautArch paralysis is listed in the conditions list. The opening of that list states that the conditions can come about in many ways. That's more widespread or applicable to multiple things than sculpt spell.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
I'm not sure that's enough of a differentiation for me. On one hand, you've got a specific condition, on the other hand, you've got a specific ability. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your methodology, but I think it's more your methodology than game methodology.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
@NautArch, I'm going by the mundane English definitions of general. Applies to more things is more general. The rules for the paralysis condition apply to more things and more broadly than the sculpt feature. Also, does the game system specify a methodology for determining more or less general? I was assuming that was deferring to the common English.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
WoTC don't really explain how to determine general over specific. But I'm always wary of using plain english personally. Game mechanics override plain english, and creating different levels of 'specificity' is more than I'm willing to do. I just look at general rule vs specific outlier. And both of those mechanics are outliers.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
Specific Beats General: Sculpt Wins.
Generally, paralyzed creatures automatically fail Str and Dex saves.
Paralysis is a general condition. There are a myriad of ways creatures can end up with this condition.
The sculpt spell feature is more specific.
Sculpt spell specifies single instances where the target creatures always succeed. It defines a narrower scope of targets and circumstances.
1
I'm not sure the Paralysis qualifies as the general. The general is you roll to save. Both Paralysis and Sculpt present specific instances for doing something else.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
1
@NautArch paralysis is listed in the conditions list. The opening of that list states that the conditions can come about in many ways. That's more widespread or applicable to multiple things than sculpt spell.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
I'm not sure that's enough of a differentiation for me. On one hand, you've got a specific condition, on the other hand, you've got a specific ability. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your methodology, but I think it's more your methodology than game methodology.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
@NautArch, I'm going by the mundane English definitions of general. Applies to more things is more general. The rules for the paralysis condition apply to more things and more broadly than the sculpt feature. Also, does the game system specify a methodology for determining more or less general? I was assuming that was deferring to the common English.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
WoTC don't really explain how to determine general over specific. But I'm always wary of using plain english personally. Game mechanics override plain english, and creating different levels of 'specificity' is more than I'm willing to do. I just look at general rule vs specific outlier. And both of those mechanics are outliers.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Specific Beats General: Sculpt Wins.
Generally, paralyzed creatures automatically fail Str and Dex saves.
Paralysis is a general condition. There are a myriad of ways creatures can end up with this condition.
The sculpt spell feature is more specific.
Sculpt spell specifies single instances where the target creatures always succeed. It defines a narrower scope of targets and circumstances.
Specific Beats General: Sculpt Wins.
Generally, paralyzed creatures automatically fail Str and Dex saves.
Paralysis is a general condition. There are a myriad of ways creatures can end up with this condition.
The sculpt spell feature is more specific.
Sculpt spell specifies single instances where the target creatures always succeed. It defines a narrower scope of targets and circumstances.
answered 6 hours ago
Grosscol
6,0521451
6,0521451
1
I'm not sure the Paralysis qualifies as the general. The general is you roll to save. Both Paralysis and Sculpt present specific instances for doing something else.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
1
@NautArch paralysis is listed in the conditions list. The opening of that list states that the conditions can come about in many ways. That's more widespread or applicable to multiple things than sculpt spell.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
I'm not sure that's enough of a differentiation for me. On one hand, you've got a specific condition, on the other hand, you've got a specific ability. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your methodology, but I think it's more your methodology than game methodology.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
@NautArch, I'm going by the mundane English definitions of general. Applies to more things is more general. The rules for the paralysis condition apply to more things and more broadly than the sculpt feature. Also, does the game system specify a methodology for determining more or less general? I was assuming that was deferring to the common English.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
WoTC don't really explain how to determine general over specific. But I'm always wary of using plain english personally. Game mechanics override plain english, and creating different levels of 'specificity' is more than I'm willing to do. I just look at general rule vs specific outlier. And both of those mechanics are outliers.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
1
I'm not sure the Paralysis qualifies as the general. The general is you roll to save. Both Paralysis and Sculpt present specific instances for doing something else.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
1
@NautArch paralysis is listed in the conditions list. The opening of that list states that the conditions can come about in many ways. That's more widespread or applicable to multiple things than sculpt spell.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
I'm not sure that's enough of a differentiation for me. On one hand, you've got a specific condition, on the other hand, you've got a specific ability. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your methodology, but I think it's more your methodology than game methodology.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
@NautArch, I'm going by the mundane English definitions of general. Applies to more things is more general. The rules for the paralysis condition apply to more things and more broadly than the sculpt feature. Also, does the game system specify a methodology for determining more or less general? I was assuming that was deferring to the common English.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
WoTC don't really explain how to determine general over specific. But I'm always wary of using plain english personally. Game mechanics override plain english, and creating different levels of 'specificity' is more than I'm willing to do. I just look at general rule vs specific outlier. And both of those mechanics are outliers.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
1
1
I'm not sure the Paralysis qualifies as the general. The general is you roll to save. Both Paralysis and Sculpt present specific instances for doing something else.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
I'm not sure the Paralysis qualifies as the general. The general is you roll to save. Both Paralysis and Sculpt present specific instances for doing something else.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
1
1
@NautArch paralysis is listed in the conditions list. The opening of that list states that the conditions can come about in many ways. That's more widespread or applicable to multiple things than sculpt spell.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
@NautArch paralysis is listed in the conditions list. The opening of that list states that the conditions can come about in many ways. That's more widespread or applicable to multiple things than sculpt spell.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
I'm not sure that's enough of a differentiation for me. On one hand, you've got a specific condition, on the other hand, you've got a specific ability. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your methodology, but I think it's more your methodology than game methodology.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
I'm not sure that's enough of a differentiation for me. On one hand, you've got a specific condition, on the other hand, you've got a specific ability. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your methodology, but I think it's more your methodology than game methodology.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
@NautArch, I'm going by the mundane English definitions of general. Applies to more things is more general. The rules for the paralysis condition apply to more things and more broadly than the sculpt feature. Also, does the game system specify a methodology for determining more or less general? I was assuming that was deferring to the common English.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
@NautArch, I'm going by the mundane English definitions of general. Applies to more things is more general. The rules for the paralysis condition apply to more things and more broadly than the sculpt feature. Also, does the game system specify a methodology for determining more or less general? I was assuming that was deferring to the common English.
â Grosscol
6 hours ago
WoTC don't really explain how to determine general over specific. But I'm always wary of using plain english personally. Game mechanics override plain english, and creating different levels of 'specificity' is more than I'm willing to do. I just look at general rule vs specific outlier. And both of those mechanics are outliers.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
WoTC don't really explain how to determine general over specific. But I'm always wary of using plain english personally. Game mechanics override plain english, and creating different levels of 'specificity' is more than I'm willing to do. I just look at general rule vs specific outlier. And both of those mechanics are outliers.
â NautArch
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
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