Forward drop of diode vs forward drop of LED
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
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It is always said that forward voltage drop in the diode is around 0.7 volts. LED also being a diode, why does it have a greater forward voltage drop of around 3 Volts?
What is the model of LED that explains this higher voltage drop?
diodes photodiode
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|
show 1 more comment
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It is always said that forward voltage drop in the diode is around 0.7 volts. LED also being a diode, why does it have a greater forward voltage drop of around 3 Volts?
What is the model of LED that explains this higher voltage drop?
diodes photodiode
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2
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This is one of those questions where the answer is to read a solid state physics book.
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– Matt Young
Jan 26 at 16:13
2
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You know, I don't think I've seen this question asked on here before, but it seems like a fairly easy misunderstanding for beginners to get, which means it's a useful one to have on here. Good question!
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– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:23
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Some decent reading: ledsmagazine.com/articles/2004/01/what-is-an-led.html
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– Peter Smith
Jan 26 at 16:25
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@Hearth. Thank you for your appreciation
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– VKJ
Jan 26 at 16:31
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You might note that at room temperature the forward voltage of an LED can be 1.2V or so for an IR LED, 1.8V or so for a red LED or 3V or so for a white (really blue) LED. I have a datasheet here for a 245nm (UV) LED that has a typical Vf of 10V.
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– Spehro Pefhany
Jan 26 at 16:32
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
It is always said that forward voltage drop in the diode is around 0.7 volts. LED also being a diode, why does it have a greater forward voltage drop of around 3 Volts?
What is the model of LED that explains this higher voltage drop?
diodes photodiode
$endgroup$
It is always said that forward voltage drop in the diode is around 0.7 volts. LED also being a diode, why does it have a greater forward voltage drop of around 3 Volts?
What is the model of LED that explains this higher voltage drop?
diodes photodiode
diodes photodiode
edited Jan 26 at 16:08
JRE
21.7k43769
21.7k43769
asked Jan 26 at 16:02
VKJVKJ
809
809
2
$begingroup$
This is one of those questions where the answer is to read a solid state physics book.
$endgroup$
– Matt Young
Jan 26 at 16:13
2
$begingroup$
You know, I don't think I've seen this question asked on here before, but it seems like a fairly easy misunderstanding for beginners to get, which means it's a useful one to have on here. Good question!
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:23
$begingroup$
Some decent reading: ledsmagazine.com/articles/2004/01/what-is-an-led.html
$endgroup$
– Peter Smith
Jan 26 at 16:25
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@Hearth. Thank you for your appreciation
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– VKJ
Jan 26 at 16:31
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You might note that at room temperature the forward voltage of an LED can be 1.2V or so for an IR LED, 1.8V or so for a red LED or 3V or so for a white (really blue) LED. I have a datasheet here for a 245nm (UV) LED that has a typical Vf of 10V.
$endgroup$
– Spehro Pefhany
Jan 26 at 16:32
|
show 1 more comment
2
$begingroup$
This is one of those questions where the answer is to read a solid state physics book.
$endgroup$
– Matt Young
Jan 26 at 16:13
2
$begingroup$
You know, I don't think I've seen this question asked on here before, but it seems like a fairly easy misunderstanding for beginners to get, which means it's a useful one to have on here. Good question!
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:23
$begingroup$
Some decent reading: ledsmagazine.com/articles/2004/01/what-is-an-led.html
$endgroup$
– Peter Smith
Jan 26 at 16:25
$begingroup$
@Hearth. Thank you for your appreciation
$endgroup$
– VKJ
Jan 26 at 16:31
$begingroup$
You might note that at room temperature the forward voltage of an LED can be 1.2V or so for an IR LED, 1.8V or so for a red LED or 3V or so for a white (really blue) LED. I have a datasheet here for a 245nm (UV) LED that has a typical Vf of 10V.
$endgroup$
– Spehro Pefhany
Jan 26 at 16:32
2
2
$begingroup$
This is one of those questions where the answer is to read a solid state physics book.
$endgroup$
– Matt Young
Jan 26 at 16:13
$begingroup$
This is one of those questions where the answer is to read a solid state physics book.
$endgroup$
– Matt Young
Jan 26 at 16:13
2
2
$begingroup$
You know, I don't think I've seen this question asked on here before, but it seems like a fairly easy misunderstanding for beginners to get, which means it's a useful one to have on here. Good question!
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:23
$begingroup$
You know, I don't think I've seen this question asked on here before, but it seems like a fairly easy misunderstanding for beginners to get, which means it's a useful one to have on here. Good question!
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:23
$begingroup$
Some decent reading: ledsmagazine.com/articles/2004/01/what-is-an-led.html
$endgroup$
– Peter Smith
Jan 26 at 16:25
$begingroup$
Some decent reading: ledsmagazine.com/articles/2004/01/what-is-an-led.html
$endgroup$
– Peter Smith
Jan 26 at 16:25
$begingroup$
@Hearth. Thank you for your appreciation
$endgroup$
– VKJ
Jan 26 at 16:31
$begingroup$
@Hearth. Thank you for your appreciation
$endgroup$
– VKJ
Jan 26 at 16:31
$begingroup$
You might note that at room temperature the forward voltage of an LED can be 1.2V or so for an IR LED, 1.8V or so for a red LED or 3V or so for a white (really blue) LED. I have a datasheet here for a 245nm (UV) LED that has a typical Vf of 10V.
$endgroup$
– Spehro Pefhany
Jan 26 at 16:32
$begingroup$
You might note that at room temperature the forward voltage of an LED can be 1.2V or so for an IR LED, 1.8V or so for a red LED or 3V or so for a white (really blue) LED. I have a datasheet here for a 245nm (UV) LED that has a typical Vf of 10V.
$endgroup$
– Spehro Pefhany
Jan 26 at 16:32
|
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
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Different semiconductor junctions have different forward voltages (and reverse leakage currents, and reverse breakdown voltages, etc.) The forward drop of a typical small-signal silicon diode is around 0.7 volts. Same thing only germanium, around 0.3V. The forward drop of a PIN (p-type, intrinsic, n-type) power diode like a 1N4004 is more like a volt or more. The forward drop of a typical 1A power Schottky is something like 0.3V at low currents, higher for their design working currents.
Band gap has a lot to do with it -- germanium has a lower band gap than silicon, which has a lower band gap than GaAs or other LED materials. Silicon carbide has a higher band gap yet, and silicon carbide Schottky diodes have forward drops of something like 2V (check my number on that).
Aside from band gap, the doping profile of the junction has a lot to do with it, too -- a Schottky diode is an extreme example, but a PIN diode will generally have a higher forward drop (and reverse breakdown voltage) than a PN junction. LED forward drops range from about 1.5V for red LEDs to 3 for blue -- this makes sense because the LED mechanism is basically to generate one photon per electron, so the forward drop in volts has to be equal to or more than the energy of the emitted photons in electron-volts.
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small signal is more like 0.6V <1mA I agree. yet you did not mention there are 2 major contributions Rs + bandgap eV to Vf. This is why Green can be higher Vf than Blue yet lower eV
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– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:34
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Checked digikey to see what I could find on SiC schottky diodes, and the lowest Vf I could find is this obsolete one (in quite the fancy package) with a Vf of 1.3V. I'm not sure if that's a single junction or multiple, though, since power diodes tend to use multiple junctions in series.
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– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:04
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Also, do you have a source on the 1N4004 being a PIN diode and not a simple PN diode? I had always thought it was just PN.
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– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:07
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@Hearth There are many Cree SiC power diodes. Since eV is higher, Vt=1V yet PIV =2kV with Vf=2V@10A or Rs=0.1Ω in a package rated for 50W so k=0.2 which is excellent
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– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 21:10
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@SunnyskyguyEE75 I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what you're saying there. This doesn't seem like it's actually a response to what I said, but I could just be out of it today...
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– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:12
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show 3 more comments
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Fundamentals
All materials in the chemical table and molecules of different combinations have unique electrical properties. But there are only 3 basic electrical categories; conductor, insulator( = dielectric) and semiconductor. The orbital radius of an electron is a measure of its energy, but each of many electron orbits formed in bands can be:
spread far apart = insulators
overlap or no gap = conductors
small gap = Semiconductors.
This is defined as the Band Gap energy in electron volts or eV.
Laws of Physics
The eV level of different material combinations directly affects the wavelength of light and the forward voltage drop. So the wavelength of light is directly related to this gap and the black body energy defined by Planck's Law
So lower eV like conductors have low energy light with a longer wavelength (like heat = Infrared) and a low forward voltage "Threshold" or knee voltage, Vt such as; *1
Germanium Ge = 0.67eV, Vt= 0.15V @1mA λp=tbd
Silicon Si = 1.14eV, Vt= 0.63V @1mA λp=1200nm (SIR)
Gallium Phosphide GaP = 2.26 eV, Vt= 1.8V @1mA λp=555nm (Grn)
Different alloys from dopants make different band gaps and wavelengths and Vf.
Old LED Technology
SiC 2.64 eV Blue
GaP 2.19 eV Green
GaP.85As.15 2.11 eV Yellow
GaP.65As.35 2.03 eV Orange
GaP.4As.6 1.91 eV Red
Here is a range from Ge to Sch to Si low-med current diodes with their VI curve, where the linear slope is due to Rs = ΔVf/ΔIf.
Newer alloys created may have similar colours at different radii but similar colours share the same band gap but may have a larger Vf yet still proportional to the eV energy which is inverse to wavelength. These are selected for reasons of improved power levels and lower series conductor resistance, Rs which is always inversely related $R_s = dfrackP_max$.
- Thus a 65mW 5mm LED with a 0.2mm² chip and k=1 has Rs=1/65mW=16 Ω with a tolerance ~ +25%/-10% but older ones or rejects were +50% and better ones with slightly bigger chips ~ 10Ω yet still limited by the thermal insulation of 5mm epoxy case for heat rise.
- then a 1W SMD LED with a k=0.25 to 1 may have Rs=0.25 to 1 Ω with arrays scaling the resistance by Series/Parallel factored by S/P x Ω and the voltage by number in Series.
k is my vendor quality related constant related to thermal conductivity of the chip thermal resistance and efficacy as well as the designer's board thermal resistance.
Yet k typ. only varies from 1.5 (poor) to 0.22 (best) for all diodes. Lower the better is found in newer SMD LEDs that may dissipate heat in the board and old Si case mounted power diodes and also improved in new SiC power diodes. So SiC has a higher eV thus higher Vt at low current but much higher reverse voltage breakdown than Si which is useful for high voltage high power switches.
Conclusion
Vf of any diode is a result of Band gap energy for the threshold voltage, Vt at the curve knee (X-axis intersection) and the conduction loss, Rs such that $V_f=V_t+I_f*R_s$ is a good approximation of the linear curve at Tjcn=25'C.
If we include the package power rating with some temp rise to Tj=85'C we can also estimate $V_f=V_t+dfrackI_fP_max$ However you never find k published in any datasheets, like many others, it is a designer's selection criteria ( or customer's Quality control variable) or Figure of Merit (FOM) like gm * nF * Ω=T[ns] for MOSFETs RdsOn.
Ref
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_gap#List_of_band_gaps
- graph http://www.oldradioworld.de/gollum/fig04.jpg
- old LEDs http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/f.html
- basic principles http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/prin.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_law- conclusions: my own from 45 yrs of LED research
*1
I changed Vf to Vt since Vf in datasheets is the recommended current rating, which includes bandgap and conduction loss but Vt does not include rated conduction loss Rs @ If.
Just as MOSFETs Vgs(th)=Vt= the threshold voltage when Id= x00uA which is still very high Rds yet starting to conduct and you usually need Vgs= 2 to 2.5 x Vt to get RdsOn.
exceptions
Power Diode MFG:Cree Silicon Carbide (SiC) 1700V PIV, @ 10A 2V @ 25'C 3.4@ 175'C @ 0.5A 1V @ 25'C Pd max = 50W @ Tc=110C and Tj=175'C
So Vt=1V, Rs ¼ Ω, Vr=1700V, k= ¼Ω * 50W = 12.5 is high due to 1.7kV PIV rating.
@ Tj=175'C = (3.4-1.0)V/(10-0.5)A = ¼ Ω , k= Rs*Pmax
Here the Vf has a positive tempco , PTC unlike most diodes due the Rs dominating the bandgap senstive Vt which is still NTC. This makes is easy to stack in parallel without thermal runaway.
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A link to the source materials would be helpful.
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– Jack Creasey
Jan 26 at 20:40
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you got it Jack. TY for asking
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– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:47
add a comment |
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The voltage drop across a forward biased junction depends on the choice of materials. A common PN silicon diode has a forward voltage of about 0.7V, but LEDs are made from different materials and so have different forward voltage drops.
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Choice of materials, and doping concentration. Material is a more significant effect, though.
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– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:21
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
Different semiconductor junctions have different forward voltages (and reverse leakage currents, and reverse breakdown voltages, etc.) The forward drop of a typical small-signal silicon diode is around 0.7 volts. Same thing only germanium, around 0.3V. The forward drop of a PIN (p-type, intrinsic, n-type) power diode like a 1N4004 is more like a volt or more. The forward drop of a typical 1A power Schottky is something like 0.3V at low currents, higher for their design working currents.
Band gap has a lot to do with it -- germanium has a lower band gap than silicon, which has a lower band gap than GaAs or other LED materials. Silicon carbide has a higher band gap yet, and silicon carbide Schottky diodes have forward drops of something like 2V (check my number on that).
Aside from band gap, the doping profile of the junction has a lot to do with it, too -- a Schottky diode is an extreme example, but a PIN diode will generally have a higher forward drop (and reverse breakdown voltage) than a PN junction. LED forward drops range from about 1.5V for red LEDs to 3 for blue -- this makes sense because the LED mechanism is basically to generate one photon per electron, so the forward drop in volts has to be equal to or more than the energy of the emitted photons in electron-volts.
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small signal is more like 0.6V <1mA I agree. yet you did not mention there are 2 major contributions Rs + bandgap eV to Vf. This is why Green can be higher Vf than Blue yet lower eV
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– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:34
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Checked digikey to see what I could find on SiC schottky diodes, and the lowest Vf I could find is this obsolete one (in quite the fancy package) with a Vf of 1.3V. I'm not sure if that's a single junction or multiple, though, since power diodes tend to use multiple junctions in series.
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– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:04
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Also, do you have a source on the 1N4004 being a PIN diode and not a simple PN diode? I had always thought it was just PN.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:07
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@Hearth There are many Cree SiC power diodes. Since eV is higher, Vt=1V yet PIV =2kV with Vf=2V@10A or Rs=0.1Ω in a package rated for 50W so k=0.2 which is excellent
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 21:10
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@SunnyskyguyEE75 I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what you're saying there. This doesn't seem like it's actually a response to what I said, but I could just be out of it today...
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Different semiconductor junctions have different forward voltages (and reverse leakage currents, and reverse breakdown voltages, etc.) The forward drop of a typical small-signal silicon diode is around 0.7 volts. Same thing only germanium, around 0.3V. The forward drop of a PIN (p-type, intrinsic, n-type) power diode like a 1N4004 is more like a volt or more. The forward drop of a typical 1A power Schottky is something like 0.3V at low currents, higher for their design working currents.
Band gap has a lot to do with it -- germanium has a lower band gap than silicon, which has a lower band gap than GaAs or other LED materials. Silicon carbide has a higher band gap yet, and silicon carbide Schottky diodes have forward drops of something like 2V (check my number on that).
Aside from band gap, the doping profile of the junction has a lot to do with it, too -- a Schottky diode is an extreme example, but a PIN diode will generally have a higher forward drop (and reverse breakdown voltage) than a PN junction. LED forward drops range from about 1.5V for red LEDs to 3 for blue -- this makes sense because the LED mechanism is basically to generate one photon per electron, so the forward drop in volts has to be equal to or more than the energy of the emitted photons in electron-volts.
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$begingroup$
small signal is more like 0.6V <1mA I agree. yet you did not mention there are 2 major contributions Rs + bandgap eV to Vf. This is why Green can be higher Vf than Blue yet lower eV
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Checked digikey to see what I could find on SiC schottky diodes, and the lowest Vf I could find is this obsolete one (in quite the fancy package) with a Vf of 1.3V. I'm not sure if that's a single junction or multiple, though, since power diodes tend to use multiple junctions in series.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:04
$begingroup$
Also, do you have a source on the 1N4004 being a PIN diode and not a simple PN diode? I had always thought it was just PN.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:07
$begingroup$
@Hearth There are many Cree SiC power diodes. Since eV is higher, Vt=1V yet PIV =2kV with Vf=2V@10A or Rs=0.1Ω in a package rated for 50W so k=0.2 which is excellent
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 21:10
$begingroup$
@SunnyskyguyEE75 I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what you're saying there. This doesn't seem like it's actually a response to what I said, but I could just be out of it today...
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Different semiconductor junctions have different forward voltages (and reverse leakage currents, and reverse breakdown voltages, etc.) The forward drop of a typical small-signal silicon diode is around 0.7 volts. Same thing only germanium, around 0.3V. The forward drop of a PIN (p-type, intrinsic, n-type) power diode like a 1N4004 is more like a volt or more. The forward drop of a typical 1A power Schottky is something like 0.3V at low currents, higher for their design working currents.
Band gap has a lot to do with it -- germanium has a lower band gap than silicon, which has a lower band gap than GaAs or other LED materials. Silicon carbide has a higher band gap yet, and silicon carbide Schottky diodes have forward drops of something like 2V (check my number on that).
Aside from band gap, the doping profile of the junction has a lot to do with it, too -- a Schottky diode is an extreme example, but a PIN diode will generally have a higher forward drop (and reverse breakdown voltage) than a PN junction. LED forward drops range from about 1.5V for red LEDs to 3 for blue -- this makes sense because the LED mechanism is basically to generate one photon per electron, so the forward drop in volts has to be equal to or more than the energy of the emitted photons in electron-volts.
$endgroup$
Different semiconductor junctions have different forward voltages (and reverse leakage currents, and reverse breakdown voltages, etc.) The forward drop of a typical small-signal silicon diode is around 0.7 volts. Same thing only germanium, around 0.3V. The forward drop of a PIN (p-type, intrinsic, n-type) power diode like a 1N4004 is more like a volt or more. The forward drop of a typical 1A power Schottky is something like 0.3V at low currents, higher for their design working currents.
Band gap has a lot to do with it -- germanium has a lower band gap than silicon, which has a lower band gap than GaAs or other LED materials. Silicon carbide has a higher band gap yet, and silicon carbide Schottky diodes have forward drops of something like 2V (check my number on that).
Aside from band gap, the doping profile of the junction has a lot to do with it, too -- a Schottky diode is an extreme example, but a PIN diode will generally have a higher forward drop (and reverse breakdown voltage) than a PN junction. LED forward drops range from about 1.5V for red LEDs to 3 for blue -- this makes sense because the LED mechanism is basically to generate one photon per electron, so the forward drop in volts has to be equal to or more than the energy of the emitted photons in electron-volts.
edited Jan 26 at 18:41
answered Jan 26 at 16:23
TimWescottTimWescott
4,9861313
4,9861313
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small signal is more like 0.6V <1mA I agree. yet you did not mention there are 2 major contributions Rs + bandgap eV to Vf. This is why Green can be higher Vf than Blue yet lower eV
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– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Checked digikey to see what I could find on SiC schottky diodes, and the lowest Vf I could find is this obsolete one (in quite the fancy package) with a Vf of 1.3V. I'm not sure if that's a single junction or multiple, though, since power diodes tend to use multiple junctions in series.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:04
$begingroup$
Also, do you have a source on the 1N4004 being a PIN diode and not a simple PN diode? I had always thought it was just PN.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:07
$begingroup$
@Hearth There are many Cree SiC power diodes. Since eV is higher, Vt=1V yet PIV =2kV with Vf=2V@10A or Rs=0.1Ω in a package rated for 50W so k=0.2 which is excellent
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 21:10
$begingroup$
@SunnyskyguyEE75 I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what you're saying there. This doesn't seem like it's actually a response to what I said, but I could just be out of it today...
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
small signal is more like 0.6V <1mA I agree. yet you did not mention there are 2 major contributions Rs + bandgap eV to Vf. This is why Green can be higher Vf than Blue yet lower eV
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Checked digikey to see what I could find on SiC schottky diodes, and the lowest Vf I could find is this obsolete one (in quite the fancy package) with a Vf of 1.3V. I'm not sure if that's a single junction or multiple, though, since power diodes tend to use multiple junctions in series.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:04
$begingroup$
Also, do you have a source on the 1N4004 being a PIN diode and not a simple PN diode? I had always thought it was just PN.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:07
$begingroup$
@Hearth There are many Cree SiC power diodes. Since eV is higher, Vt=1V yet PIV =2kV with Vf=2V@10A or Rs=0.1Ω in a package rated for 50W so k=0.2 which is excellent
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 21:10
$begingroup$
@SunnyskyguyEE75 I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what you're saying there. This doesn't seem like it's actually a response to what I said, but I could just be out of it today...
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:12
$begingroup$
small signal is more like 0.6V <1mA I agree. yet you did not mention there are 2 major contributions Rs + bandgap eV to Vf. This is why Green can be higher Vf than Blue yet lower eV
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:34
$begingroup$
small signal is more like 0.6V <1mA I agree. yet you did not mention there are 2 major contributions Rs + bandgap eV to Vf. This is why Green can be higher Vf than Blue yet lower eV
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Checked digikey to see what I could find on SiC schottky diodes, and the lowest Vf I could find is this obsolete one (in quite the fancy package) with a Vf of 1.3V. I'm not sure if that's a single junction or multiple, though, since power diodes tend to use multiple junctions in series.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:04
$begingroup$
Checked digikey to see what I could find on SiC schottky diodes, and the lowest Vf I could find is this obsolete one (in quite the fancy package) with a Vf of 1.3V. I'm not sure if that's a single junction or multiple, though, since power diodes tend to use multiple junctions in series.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:04
$begingroup$
Also, do you have a source on the 1N4004 being a PIN diode and not a simple PN diode? I had always thought it was just PN.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Also, do you have a source on the 1N4004 being a PIN diode and not a simple PN diode? I had always thought it was just PN.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:07
$begingroup$
@Hearth There are many Cree SiC power diodes. Since eV is higher, Vt=1V yet PIV =2kV with Vf=2V@10A or Rs=0.1Ω in a package rated for 50W so k=0.2 which is excellent
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 21:10
$begingroup$
@Hearth There are many Cree SiC power diodes. Since eV is higher, Vt=1V yet PIV =2kV with Vf=2V@10A or Rs=0.1Ω in a package rated for 50W so k=0.2 which is excellent
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 21:10
$begingroup$
@SunnyskyguyEE75 I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what you're saying there. This doesn't seem like it's actually a response to what I said, but I could just be out of it today...
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:12
$begingroup$
@SunnyskyguyEE75 I'm sorry, I can't seem to follow what you're saying there. This doesn't seem like it's actually a response to what I said, but I could just be out of it today...
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 21:12
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Fundamentals
All materials in the chemical table and molecules of different combinations have unique electrical properties. But there are only 3 basic electrical categories; conductor, insulator( = dielectric) and semiconductor. The orbital radius of an electron is a measure of its energy, but each of many electron orbits formed in bands can be:
spread far apart = insulators
overlap or no gap = conductors
small gap = Semiconductors.
This is defined as the Band Gap energy in electron volts or eV.
Laws of Physics
The eV level of different material combinations directly affects the wavelength of light and the forward voltage drop. So the wavelength of light is directly related to this gap and the black body energy defined by Planck's Law
So lower eV like conductors have low energy light with a longer wavelength (like heat = Infrared) and a low forward voltage "Threshold" or knee voltage, Vt such as; *1
Germanium Ge = 0.67eV, Vt= 0.15V @1mA λp=tbd
Silicon Si = 1.14eV, Vt= 0.63V @1mA λp=1200nm (SIR)
Gallium Phosphide GaP = 2.26 eV, Vt= 1.8V @1mA λp=555nm (Grn)
Different alloys from dopants make different band gaps and wavelengths and Vf.
Old LED Technology
SiC 2.64 eV Blue
GaP 2.19 eV Green
GaP.85As.15 2.11 eV Yellow
GaP.65As.35 2.03 eV Orange
GaP.4As.6 1.91 eV Red
Here is a range from Ge to Sch to Si low-med current diodes with their VI curve, where the linear slope is due to Rs = ΔVf/ΔIf.
Newer alloys created may have similar colours at different radii but similar colours share the same band gap but may have a larger Vf yet still proportional to the eV energy which is inverse to wavelength. These are selected for reasons of improved power levels and lower series conductor resistance, Rs which is always inversely related $R_s = dfrackP_max$.
- Thus a 65mW 5mm LED with a 0.2mm² chip and k=1 has Rs=1/65mW=16 Ω with a tolerance ~ +25%/-10% but older ones or rejects were +50% and better ones with slightly bigger chips ~ 10Ω yet still limited by the thermal insulation of 5mm epoxy case for heat rise.
- then a 1W SMD LED with a k=0.25 to 1 may have Rs=0.25 to 1 Ω with arrays scaling the resistance by Series/Parallel factored by S/P x Ω and the voltage by number in Series.
k is my vendor quality related constant related to thermal conductivity of the chip thermal resistance and efficacy as well as the designer's board thermal resistance.
Yet k typ. only varies from 1.5 (poor) to 0.22 (best) for all diodes. Lower the better is found in newer SMD LEDs that may dissipate heat in the board and old Si case mounted power diodes and also improved in new SiC power diodes. So SiC has a higher eV thus higher Vt at low current but much higher reverse voltage breakdown than Si which is useful for high voltage high power switches.
Conclusion
Vf of any diode is a result of Band gap energy for the threshold voltage, Vt at the curve knee (X-axis intersection) and the conduction loss, Rs such that $V_f=V_t+I_f*R_s$ is a good approximation of the linear curve at Tjcn=25'C.
If we include the package power rating with some temp rise to Tj=85'C we can also estimate $V_f=V_t+dfrackI_fP_max$ However you never find k published in any datasheets, like many others, it is a designer's selection criteria ( or customer's Quality control variable) or Figure of Merit (FOM) like gm * nF * Ω=T[ns] for MOSFETs RdsOn.
Ref
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_gap#List_of_band_gaps
- graph http://www.oldradioworld.de/gollum/fig04.jpg
- old LEDs http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/f.html
- basic principles http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/prin.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_law- conclusions: my own from 45 yrs of LED research
*1
I changed Vf to Vt since Vf in datasheets is the recommended current rating, which includes bandgap and conduction loss but Vt does not include rated conduction loss Rs @ If.
Just as MOSFETs Vgs(th)=Vt= the threshold voltage when Id= x00uA which is still very high Rds yet starting to conduct and you usually need Vgs= 2 to 2.5 x Vt to get RdsOn.
exceptions
Power Diode MFG:Cree Silicon Carbide (SiC) 1700V PIV, @ 10A 2V @ 25'C 3.4@ 175'C @ 0.5A 1V @ 25'C Pd max = 50W @ Tc=110C and Tj=175'C
So Vt=1V, Rs ¼ Ω, Vr=1700V, k= ¼Ω * 50W = 12.5 is high due to 1.7kV PIV rating.
@ Tj=175'C = (3.4-1.0)V/(10-0.5)A = ¼ Ω , k= Rs*Pmax
Here the Vf has a positive tempco , PTC unlike most diodes due the Rs dominating the bandgap senstive Vt which is still NTC. This makes is easy to stack in parallel without thermal runaway.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A link to the source materials would be helpful.
$endgroup$
– Jack Creasey
Jan 26 at 20:40
$begingroup$
you got it Jack. TY for asking
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:47
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Fundamentals
All materials in the chemical table and molecules of different combinations have unique electrical properties. But there are only 3 basic electrical categories; conductor, insulator( = dielectric) and semiconductor. The orbital radius of an electron is a measure of its energy, but each of many electron orbits formed in bands can be:
spread far apart = insulators
overlap or no gap = conductors
small gap = Semiconductors.
This is defined as the Band Gap energy in electron volts or eV.
Laws of Physics
The eV level of different material combinations directly affects the wavelength of light and the forward voltage drop. So the wavelength of light is directly related to this gap and the black body energy defined by Planck's Law
So lower eV like conductors have low energy light with a longer wavelength (like heat = Infrared) and a low forward voltage "Threshold" or knee voltage, Vt such as; *1
Germanium Ge = 0.67eV, Vt= 0.15V @1mA λp=tbd
Silicon Si = 1.14eV, Vt= 0.63V @1mA λp=1200nm (SIR)
Gallium Phosphide GaP = 2.26 eV, Vt= 1.8V @1mA λp=555nm (Grn)
Different alloys from dopants make different band gaps and wavelengths and Vf.
Old LED Technology
SiC 2.64 eV Blue
GaP 2.19 eV Green
GaP.85As.15 2.11 eV Yellow
GaP.65As.35 2.03 eV Orange
GaP.4As.6 1.91 eV Red
Here is a range from Ge to Sch to Si low-med current diodes with their VI curve, where the linear slope is due to Rs = ΔVf/ΔIf.
Newer alloys created may have similar colours at different radii but similar colours share the same band gap but may have a larger Vf yet still proportional to the eV energy which is inverse to wavelength. These are selected for reasons of improved power levels and lower series conductor resistance, Rs which is always inversely related $R_s = dfrackP_max$.
- Thus a 65mW 5mm LED with a 0.2mm² chip and k=1 has Rs=1/65mW=16 Ω with a tolerance ~ +25%/-10% but older ones or rejects were +50% and better ones with slightly bigger chips ~ 10Ω yet still limited by the thermal insulation of 5mm epoxy case for heat rise.
- then a 1W SMD LED with a k=0.25 to 1 may have Rs=0.25 to 1 Ω with arrays scaling the resistance by Series/Parallel factored by S/P x Ω and the voltage by number in Series.
k is my vendor quality related constant related to thermal conductivity of the chip thermal resistance and efficacy as well as the designer's board thermal resistance.
Yet k typ. only varies from 1.5 (poor) to 0.22 (best) for all diodes. Lower the better is found in newer SMD LEDs that may dissipate heat in the board and old Si case mounted power diodes and also improved in new SiC power diodes. So SiC has a higher eV thus higher Vt at low current but much higher reverse voltage breakdown than Si which is useful for high voltage high power switches.
Conclusion
Vf of any diode is a result of Band gap energy for the threshold voltage, Vt at the curve knee (X-axis intersection) and the conduction loss, Rs such that $V_f=V_t+I_f*R_s$ is a good approximation of the linear curve at Tjcn=25'C.
If we include the package power rating with some temp rise to Tj=85'C we can also estimate $V_f=V_t+dfrackI_fP_max$ However you never find k published in any datasheets, like many others, it is a designer's selection criteria ( or customer's Quality control variable) or Figure of Merit (FOM) like gm * nF * Ω=T[ns] for MOSFETs RdsOn.
Ref
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_gap#List_of_band_gaps
- graph http://www.oldradioworld.de/gollum/fig04.jpg
- old LEDs http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/f.html
- basic principles http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/prin.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_law- conclusions: my own from 45 yrs of LED research
*1
I changed Vf to Vt since Vf in datasheets is the recommended current rating, which includes bandgap and conduction loss but Vt does not include rated conduction loss Rs @ If.
Just as MOSFETs Vgs(th)=Vt= the threshold voltage when Id= x00uA which is still very high Rds yet starting to conduct and you usually need Vgs= 2 to 2.5 x Vt to get RdsOn.
exceptions
Power Diode MFG:Cree Silicon Carbide (SiC) 1700V PIV, @ 10A 2V @ 25'C 3.4@ 175'C @ 0.5A 1V @ 25'C Pd max = 50W @ Tc=110C and Tj=175'C
So Vt=1V, Rs ¼ Ω, Vr=1700V, k= ¼Ω * 50W = 12.5 is high due to 1.7kV PIV rating.
@ Tj=175'C = (3.4-1.0)V/(10-0.5)A = ¼ Ω , k= Rs*Pmax
Here the Vf has a positive tempco , PTC unlike most diodes due the Rs dominating the bandgap senstive Vt which is still NTC. This makes is easy to stack in parallel without thermal runaway.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
A link to the source materials would be helpful.
$endgroup$
– Jack Creasey
Jan 26 at 20:40
$begingroup$
you got it Jack. TY for asking
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:47
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Fundamentals
All materials in the chemical table and molecules of different combinations have unique electrical properties. But there are only 3 basic electrical categories; conductor, insulator( = dielectric) and semiconductor. The orbital radius of an electron is a measure of its energy, but each of many electron orbits formed in bands can be:
spread far apart = insulators
overlap or no gap = conductors
small gap = Semiconductors.
This is defined as the Band Gap energy in electron volts or eV.
Laws of Physics
The eV level of different material combinations directly affects the wavelength of light and the forward voltage drop. So the wavelength of light is directly related to this gap and the black body energy defined by Planck's Law
So lower eV like conductors have low energy light with a longer wavelength (like heat = Infrared) and a low forward voltage "Threshold" or knee voltage, Vt such as; *1
Germanium Ge = 0.67eV, Vt= 0.15V @1mA λp=tbd
Silicon Si = 1.14eV, Vt= 0.63V @1mA λp=1200nm (SIR)
Gallium Phosphide GaP = 2.26 eV, Vt= 1.8V @1mA λp=555nm (Grn)
Different alloys from dopants make different band gaps and wavelengths and Vf.
Old LED Technology
SiC 2.64 eV Blue
GaP 2.19 eV Green
GaP.85As.15 2.11 eV Yellow
GaP.65As.35 2.03 eV Orange
GaP.4As.6 1.91 eV Red
Here is a range from Ge to Sch to Si low-med current diodes with their VI curve, where the linear slope is due to Rs = ΔVf/ΔIf.
Newer alloys created may have similar colours at different radii but similar colours share the same band gap but may have a larger Vf yet still proportional to the eV energy which is inverse to wavelength. These are selected for reasons of improved power levels and lower series conductor resistance, Rs which is always inversely related $R_s = dfrackP_max$.
- Thus a 65mW 5mm LED with a 0.2mm² chip and k=1 has Rs=1/65mW=16 Ω with a tolerance ~ +25%/-10% but older ones or rejects were +50% and better ones with slightly bigger chips ~ 10Ω yet still limited by the thermal insulation of 5mm epoxy case for heat rise.
- then a 1W SMD LED with a k=0.25 to 1 may have Rs=0.25 to 1 Ω with arrays scaling the resistance by Series/Parallel factored by S/P x Ω and the voltage by number in Series.
k is my vendor quality related constant related to thermal conductivity of the chip thermal resistance and efficacy as well as the designer's board thermal resistance.
Yet k typ. only varies from 1.5 (poor) to 0.22 (best) for all diodes. Lower the better is found in newer SMD LEDs that may dissipate heat in the board and old Si case mounted power diodes and also improved in new SiC power diodes. So SiC has a higher eV thus higher Vt at low current but much higher reverse voltage breakdown than Si which is useful for high voltage high power switches.
Conclusion
Vf of any diode is a result of Band gap energy for the threshold voltage, Vt at the curve knee (X-axis intersection) and the conduction loss, Rs such that $V_f=V_t+I_f*R_s$ is a good approximation of the linear curve at Tjcn=25'C.
If we include the package power rating with some temp rise to Tj=85'C we can also estimate $V_f=V_t+dfrackI_fP_max$ However you never find k published in any datasheets, like many others, it is a designer's selection criteria ( or customer's Quality control variable) or Figure of Merit (FOM) like gm * nF * Ω=T[ns] for MOSFETs RdsOn.
Ref
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_gap#List_of_band_gaps
- graph http://www.oldradioworld.de/gollum/fig04.jpg
- old LEDs http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/f.html
- basic principles http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/prin.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_law- conclusions: my own from 45 yrs of LED research
*1
I changed Vf to Vt since Vf in datasheets is the recommended current rating, which includes bandgap and conduction loss but Vt does not include rated conduction loss Rs @ If.
Just as MOSFETs Vgs(th)=Vt= the threshold voltage when Id= x00uA which is still very high Rds yet starting to conduct and you usually need Vgs= 2 to 2.5 x Vt to get RdsOn.
exceptions
Power Diode MFG:Cree Silicon Carbide (SiC) 1700V PIV, @ 10A 2V @ 25'C 3.4@ 175'C @ 0.5A 1V @ 25'C Pd max = 50W @ Tc=110C and Tj=175'C
So Vt=1V, Rs ¼ Ω, Vr=1700V, k= ¼Ω * 50W = 12.5 is high due to 1.7kV PIV rating.
@ Tj=175'C = (3.4-1.0)V/(10-0.5)A = ¼ Ω , k= Rs*Pmax
Here the Vf has a positive tempco , PTC unlike most diodes due the Rs dominating the bandgap senstive Vt which is still NTC. This makes is easy to stack in parallel without thermal runaway.
$endgroup$
Fundamentals
All materials in the chemical table and molecules of different combinations have unique electrical properties. But there are only 3 basic electrical categories; conductor, insulator( = dielectric) and semiconductor. The orbital radius of an electron is a measure of its energy, but each of many electron orbits formed in bands can be:
spread far apart = insulators
overlap or no gap = conductors
small gap = Semiconductors.
This is defined as the Band Gap energy in electron volts or eV.
Laws of Physics
The eV level of different material combinations directly affects the wavelength of light and the forward voltage drop. So the wavelength of light is directly related to this gap and the black body energy defined by Planck's Law
So lower eV like conductors have low energy light with a longer wavelength (like heat = Infrared) and a low forward voltage "Threshold" or knee voltage, Vt such as; *1
Germanium Ge = 0.67eV, Vt= 0.15V @1mA λp=tbd
Silicon Si = 1.14eV, Vt= 0.63V @1mA λp=1200nm (SIR)
Gallium Phosphide GaP = 2.26 eV, Vt= 1.8V @1mA λp=555nm (Grn)
Different alloys from dopants make different band gaps and wavelengths and Vf.
Old LED Technology
SiC 2.64 eV Blue
GaP 2.19 eV Green
GaP.85As.15 2.11 eV Yellow
GaP.65As.35 2.03 eV Orange
GaP.4As.6 1.91 eV Red
Here is a range from Ge to Sch to Si low-med current diodes with their VI curve, where the linear slope is due to Rs = ΔVf/ΔIf.
Newer alloys created may have similar colours at different radii but similar colours share the same band gap but may have a larger Vf yet still proportional to the eV energy which is inverse to wavelength. These are selected for reasons of improved power levels and lower series conductor resistance, Rs which is always inversely related $R_s = dfrackP_max$.
- Thus a 65mW 5mm LED with a 0.2mm² chip and k=1 has Rs=1/65mW=16 Ω with a tolerance ~ +25%/-10% but older ones or rejects were +50% and better ones with slightly bigger chips ~ 10Ω yet still limited by the thermal insulation of 5mm epoxy case for heat rise.
- then a 1W SMD LED with a k=0.25 to 1 may have Rs=0.25 to 1 Ω with arrays scaling the resistance by Series/Parallel factored by S/P x Ω and the voltage by number in Series.
k is my vendor quality related constant related to thermal conductivity of the chip thermal resistance and efficacy as well as the designer's board thermal resistance.
Yet k typ. only varies from 1.5 (poor) to 0.22 (best) for all diodes. Lower the better is found in newer SMD LEDs that may dissipate heat in the board and old Si case mounted power diodes and also improved in new SiC power diodes. So SiC has a higher eV thus higher Vt at low current but much higher reverse voltage breakdown than Si which is useful for high voltage high power switches.
Conclusion
Vf of any diode is a result of Band gap energy for the threshold voltage, Vt at the curve knee (X-axis intersection) and the conduction loss, Rs such that $V_f=V_t+I_f*R_s$ is a good approximation of the linear curve at Tjcn=25'C.
If we include the package power rating with some temp rise to Tj=85'C we can also estimate $V_f=V_t+dfrackI_fP_max$ However you never find k published in any datasheets, like many others, it is a designer's selection criteria ( or customer's Quality control variable) or Figure of Merit (FOM) like gm * nF * Ω=T[ns] for MOSFETs RdsOn.
Ref
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_gap#List_of_band_gaps
- graph http://www.oldradioworld.de/gollum/fig04.jpg
- old LEDs http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/f.html
- basic principles http://matse1.matse.illinois.edu/sc/prin.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_law- conclusions: my own from 45 yrs of LED research
*1
I changed Vf to Vt since Vf in datasheets is the recommended current rating, which includes bandgap and conduction loss but Vt does not include rated conduction loss Rs @ If.
Just as MOSFETs Vgs(th)=Vt= the threshold voltage when Id= x00uA which is still very high Rds yet starting to conduct and you usually need Vgs= 2 to 2.5 x Vt to get RdsOn.
exceptions
Power Diode MFG:Cree Silicon Carbide (SiC) 1700V PIV, @ 10A 2V @ 25'C 3.4@ 175'C @ 0.5A 1V @ 25'C Pd max = 50W @ Tc=110C and Tj=175'C
So Vt=1V, Rs ¼ Ω, Vr=1700V, k= ¼Ω * 50W = 12.5 is high due to 1.7kV PIV rating.
@ Tj=175'C = (3.4-1.0)V/(10-0.5)A = ¼ Ω , k= Rs*Pmax
Here the Vf has a positive tempco , PTC unlike most diodes due the Rs dominating the bandgap senstive Vt which is still NTC. This makes is easy to stack in parallel without thermal runaway.
edited Jan 26 at 21:55
answered Jan 26 at 20:16
Sunnyskyguy EE75Sunnyskyguy EE75
66.3k22397
66.3k22397
$begingroup$
A link to the source materials would be helpful.
$endgroup$
– Jack Creasey
Jan 26 at 20:40
$begingroup$
you got it Jack. TY for asking
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:47
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A link to the source materials would be helpful.
$endgroup$
– Jack Creasey
Jan 26 at 20:40
$begingroup$
you got it Jack. TY for asking
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:47
$begingroup$
A link to the source materials would be helpful.
$endgroup$
– Jack Creasey
Jan 26 at 20:40
$begingroup$
A link to the source materials would be helpful.
$endgroup$
– Jack Creasey
Jan 26 at 20:40
$begingroup$
you got it Jack. TY for asking
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:47
$begingroup$
you got it Jack. TY for asking
$endgroup$
– Sunnyskyguy EE75
Jan 26 at 20:47
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The voltage drop across a forward biased junction depends on the choice of materials. A common PN silicon diode has a forward voltage of about 0.7V, but LEDs are made from different materials and so have different forward voltage drops.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Choice of materials, and doping concentration. Material is a more significant effect, though.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:21
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The voltage drop across a forward biased junction depends on the choice of materials. A common PN silicon diode has a forward voltage of about 0.7V, but LEDs are made from different materials and so have different forward voltage drops.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Choice of materials, and doping concentration. Material is a more significant effect, though.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:21
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The voltage drop across a forward biased junction depends on the choice of materials. A common PN silicon diode has a forward voltage of about 0.7V, but LEDs are made from different materials and so have different forward voltage drops.
$endgroup$
The voltage drop across a forward biased junction depends on the choice of materials. A common PN silicon diode has a forward voltage of about 0.7V, but LEDs are made from different materials and so have different forward voltage drops.
answered Jan 26 at 16:15
Elliot AldersonElliot Alderson
6,93111022
6,93111022
$begingroup$
Choice of materials, and doping concentration. Material is a more significant effect, though.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:21
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Choice of materials, and doping concentration. Material is a more significant effect, though.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:21
$begingroup$
Choice of materials, and doping concentration. Material is a more significant effect, though.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:21
$begingroup$
Choice of materials, and doping concentration. Material is a more significant effect, though.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:21
add a comment |
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This is one of those questions where the answer is to read a solid state physics book.
$endgroup$
– Matt Young
Jan 26 at 16:13
2
$begingroup$
You know, I don't think I've seen this question asked on here before, but it seems like a fairly easy misunderstanding for beginners to get, which means it's a useful one to have on here. Good question!
$endgroup$
– Hearth
Jan 26 at 16:23
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Some decent reading: ledsmagazine.com/articles/2004/01/what-is-an-led.html
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– Peter Smith
Jan 26 at 16:25
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@Hearth. Thank you for your appreciation
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– VKJ
Jan 26 at 16:31
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You might note that at room temperature the forward voltage of an LED can be 1.2V or so for an IR LED, 1.8V or so for a red LED or 3V or so for a white (really blue) LED. I have a datasheet here for a 245nm (UV) LED that has a typical Vf of 10V.
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– Spehro Pefhany
Jan 26 at 16:32