What was the fate of Marley in A Christmas Carol (and beyond)?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
In A Christmas Carol Scrooge is visited by the ghost of his former partner Jacob Marley. Poor Jacob is covered in chains and shackles and seems to be in a very sore state.
“You are fettered,” said Scrooge, trembling. “Tell me why?”
“I wear the chain I forged in life,” replied the Ghost. “I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?”
After his brief time with Scrooge we don't see him again. Is there any indication of his ultimate fate?
a-christmas-carol
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
In A Christmas Carol Scrooge is visited by the ghost of his former partner Jacob Marley. Poor Jacob is covered in chains and shackles and seems to be in a very sore state.
“You are fettered,” said Scrooge, trembling. “Tell me why?”
“I wear the chain I forged in life,” replied the Ghost. “I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?”
After his brief time with Scrooge we don't see him again. Is there any indication of his ultimate fate?
a-christmas-carol
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
2
Was it not implied he went to hell?
– Wooden13
Nov 22 at 19:01
1
@Wooden13 - If you can provide a quote that backs that up, you've got the makings of an excellent answer
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Wooden13 - For the record, I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'd love you to prove otherwise
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Paulie_D - I see a lot of weasel words; Inferred, implied, etc.
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:05
1
@Paulie_D - Well, Christian mythos allows for more outcomes after death than a simple binary choice between Heaven and Hell
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:10
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
In A Christmas Carol Scrooge is visited by the ghost of his former partner Jacob Marley. Poor Jacob is covered in chains and shackles and seems to be in a very sore state.
“You are fettered,” said Scrooge, trembling. “Tell me why?”
“I wear the chain I forged in life,” replied the Ghost. “I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?”
After his brief time with Scrooge we don't see him again. Is there any indication of his ultimate fate?
a-christmas-carol
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
In A Christmas Carol Scrooge is visited by the ghost of his former partner Jacob Marley. Poor Jacob is covered in chains and shackles and seems to be in a very sore state.
“You are fettered,” said Scrooge, trembling. “Tell me why?”
“I wear the chain I forged in life,” replied the Ghost. “I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?”
After his brief time with Scrooge we don't see him again. Is there any indication of his ultimate fate?
a-christmas-carol
a-christmas-carol
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
edited Nov 22 at 19:25
Buzz
31.5k6108172
31.5k6108172
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
asked Nov 22 at 18:48
Valorum
389k10028323066
389k10028323066
2
Was it not implied he went to hell?
– Wooden13
Nov 22 at 19:01
1
@Wooden13 - If you can provide a quote that backs that up, you've got the makings of an excellent answer
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Wooden13 - For the record, I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'd love you to prove otherwise
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Paulie_D - I see a lot of weasel words; Inferred, implied, etc.
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:05
1
@Paulie_D - Well, Christian mythos allows for more outcomes after death than a simple binary choice between Heaven and Hell
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:10
|
show 1 more comment
2
Was it not implied he went to hell?
– Wooden13
Nov 22 at 19:01
1
@Wooden13 - If you can provide a quote that backs that up, you've got the makings of an excellent answer
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Wooden13 - For the record, I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'd love you to prove otherwise
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Paulie_D - I see a lot of weasel words; Inferred, implied, etc.
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:05
1
@Paulie_D - Well, Christian mythos allows for more outcomes after death than a simple binary choice between Heaven and Hell
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:10
2
2
Was it not implied he went to hell?
– Wooden13
Nov 22 at 19:01
Was it not implied he went to hell?
– Wooden13
Nov 22 at 19:01
1
1
@Wooden13 - If you can provide a quote that backs that up, you've got the makings of an excellent answer
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Wooden13 - If you can provide a quote that backs that up, you've got the makings of an excellent answer
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Wooden13 - For the record, I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'd love you to prove otherwise
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Wooden13 - For the record, I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'd love you to prove otherwise
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Paulie_D - I see a lot of weasel words; Inferred, implied, etc.
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:05
@Paulie_D - I see a lot of weasel words; Inferred, implied, etc.
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:05
1
1
@Paulie_D - Well, Christian mythos allows for more outcomes after death than a simple binary choice between Heaven and Hell
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:10
@Paulie_D - Well, Christian mythos allows for more outcomes after death than a simple binary choice between Heaven and Hell
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:10
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
11
down vote
His spirit is doomed to travel the earth to see, in death, what it missed in life.
There is no indication that there is anything that Marley can do so change this situation.
“It is required of every man,” the Ghost returned, “that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide. And if that spirit goes not forth in life it is condemned to do so, after death. It is doomed to wander through the world, oh woe is me!—and witness what it can no longer share, but might have shared on earth, and turned to Happiness!”
A Christmas Carol - Marley's Ghost - Charles Dickens
Further...
“Seven years dead,” mused Scrooge. “And travelling all the time?”
“The whole time,” said the Ghost. “No rest, no peace. Incessant torture of remorse.”
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
1
One man's hell is another man's heaven. Or, doesn't this sound similar to watching TV 24-7?
– RDFozz
Nov 23 at 17:56
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Marley will (eventually) receive absolution and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Marley's state in A Christmas Carol is one of purgatory, a ghostly apparition condemned to walk the Earth wrapped in chains that represent the various sins he committed in life (notably usury and avarice) until he's absolved himself of those sins through a mixture of penitence, abasement and mortification. He describes his punishment not as the punishment of Hell, but rather as a "penance" which, by its very definition, will inevitably lead to his receiving absolution and thus gain entry into Heaven.
“How it is that I appear before you in a shape that you can see, I may not tell. I have sat invisible beside you many and many a day.”
It was not an agreeable idea. Scrooge shivered, and wiped the perspiration from his brow.
“That is no light part of my penance,” pursued the Ghost. “I am here to-night to warn you, that you have yet a chance and hope of escaping my fate. A chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer.”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
We find Marley only a few years into his punishment and feeling very sorry for himself. He's convinced that there's insufficient time left before doomday for him to pay sufficient penance for his actions (to receive absolution) but I think we can treat this as hyperbole. He's got a very long way to go, but he'll get there eventually.
“Oh! captive, bound, and double-ironed,” cried the phantom, “not to know, that ages of
incessant labour by immortal creatures, for this earth must pass into
eternity before the good of which it is susceptible is all developed.
Not to know that any Christian spirit working kindly in its little
sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for
its vast means of usefulness. Not to know that no space of regret can
make amends for one life’s opportunity misused! Yet such was I! Oh!
such was I!”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
As Hamlet's father put it, "I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away
– Valorum
Nov 23 at 18:12
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
11
down vote
His spirit is doomed to travel the earth to see, in death, what it missed in life.
There is no indication that there is anything that Marley can do so change this situation.
“It is required of every man,” the Ghost returned, “that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide. And if that spirit goes not forth in life it is condemned to do so, after death. It is doomed to wander through the world, oh woe is me!—and witness what it can no longer share, but might have shared on earth, and turned to Happiness!”
A Christmas Carol - Marley's Ghost - Charles Dickens
Further...
“Seven years dead,” mused Scrooge. “And travelling all the time?”
“The whole time,” said the Ghost. “No rest, no peace. Incessant torture of remorse.”
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
1
One man's hell is another man's heaven. Or, doesn't this sound similar to watching TV 24-7?
– RDFozz
Nov 23 at 17:56
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
His spirit is doomed to travel the earth to see, in death, what it missed in life.
There is no indication that there is anything that Marley can do so change this situation.
“It is required of every man,” the Ghost returned, “that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide. And if that spirit goes not forth in life it is condemned to do so, after death. It is doomed to wander through the world, oh woe is me!—and witness what it can no longer share, but might have shared on earth, and turned to Happiness!”
A Christmas Carol - Marley's Ghost - Charles Dickens
Further...
“Seven years dead,” mused Scrooge. “And travelling all the time?”
“The whole time,” said the Ghost. “No rest, no peace. Incessant torture of remorse.”
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
1
One man's hell is another man's heaven. Or, doesn't this sound similar to watching TV 24-7?
– RDFozz
Nov 23 at 17:56
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
His spirit is doomed to travel the earth to see, in death, what it missed in life.
There is no indication that there is anything that Marley can do so change this situation.
“It is required of every man,” the Ghost returned, “that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide. And if that spirit goes not forth in life it is condemned to do so, after death. It is doomed to wander through the world, oh woe is me!—and witness what it can no longer share, but might have shared on earth, and turned to Happiness!”
A Christmas Carol - Marley's Ghost - Charles Dickens
Further...
“Seven years dead,” mused Scrooge. “And travelling all the time?”
“The whole time,” said the Ghost. “No rest, no peace. Incessant torture of remorse.”
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
His spirit is doomed to travel the earth to see, in death, what it missed in life.
There is no indication that there is anything that Marley can do so change this situation.
“It is required of every man,” the Ghost returned, “that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide. And if that spirit goes not forth in life it is condemned to do so, after death. It is doomed to wander through the world, oh woe is me!—and witness what it can no longer share, but might have shared on earth, and turned to Happiness!”
A Christmas Carol - Marley's Ghost - Charles Dickens
Further...
“Seven years dead,” mused Scrooge. “And travelling all the time?”
“The whole time,” said the Ghost. “No rest, no peace. Incessant torture of remorse.”
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
edited Nov 22 at 19:42
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
answered Nov 22 at 19:22
Paulie_D
14.4k25568
14.4k25568
1
One man's hell is another man's heaven. Or, doesn't this sound similar to watching TV 24-7?
– RDFozz
Nov 23 at 17:56
add a comment |
1
One man's hell is another man's heaven. Or, doesn't this sound similar to watching TV 24-7?
– RDFozz
Nov 23 at 17:56
1
1
One man's hell is another man's heaven. Or, doesn't this sound similar to watching TV 24-7?
– RDFozz
Nov 23 at 17:56
One man's hell is another man's heaven. Or, doesn't this sound similar to watching TV 24-7?
– RDFozz
Nov 23 at 17:56
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Marley will (eventually) receive absolution and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Marley's state in A Christmas Carol is one of purgatory, a ghostly apparition condemned to walk the Earth wrapped in chains that represent the various sins he committed in life (notably usury and avarice) until he's absolved himself of those sins through a mixture of penitence, abasement and mortification. He describes his punishment not as the punishment of Hell, but rather as a "penance" which, by its very definition, will inevitably lead to his receiving absolution and thus gain entry into Heaven.
“How it is that I appear before you in a shape that you can see, I may not tell. I have sat invisible beside you many and many a day.”
It was not an agreeable idea. Scrooge shivered, and wiped the perspiration from his brow.
“That is no light part of my penance,” pursued the Ghost. “I am here to-night to warn you, that you have yet a chance and hope of escaping my fate. A chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer.”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
We find Marley only a few years into his punishment and feeling very sorry for himself. He's convinced that there's insufficient time left before doomday for him to pay sufficient penance for his actions (to receive absolution) but I think we can treat this as hyperbole. He's got a very long way to go, but he'll get there eventually.
“Oh! captive, bound, and double-ironed,” cried the phantom, “not to know, that ages of
incessant labour by immortal creatures, for this earth must pass into
eternity before the good of which it is susceptible is all developed.
Not to know that any Christian spirit working kindly in its little
sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for
its vast means of usefulness. Not to know that no space of regret can
make amends for one life’s opportunity misused! Yet such was I! Oh!
such was I!”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
As Hamlet's father put it, "I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away
– Valorum
Nov 23 at 18:12
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Marley will (eventually) receive absolution and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Marley's state in A Christmas Carol is one of purgatory, a ghostly apparition condemned to walk the Earth wrapped in chains that represent the various sins he committed in life (notably usury and avarice) until he's absolved himself of those sins through a mixture of penitence, abasement and mortification. He describes his punishment not as the punishment of Hell, but rather as a "penance" which, by its very definition, will inevitably lead to his receiving absolution and thus gain entry into Heaven.
“How it is that I appear before you in a shape that you can see, I may not tell. I have sat invisible beside you many and many a day.”
It was not an agreeable idea. Scrooge shivered, and wiped the perspiration from his brow.
“That is no light part of my penance,” pursued the Ghost. “I am here to-night to warn you, that you have yet a chance and hope of escaping my fate. A chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer.”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
We find Marley only a few years into his punishment and feeling very sorry for himself. He's convinced that there's insufficient time left before doomday for him to pay sufficient penance for his actions (to receive absolution) but I think we can treat this as hyperbole. He's got a very long way to go, but he'll get there eventually.
“Oh! captive, bound, and double-ironed,” cried the phantom, “not to know, that ages of
incessant labour by immortal creatures, for this earth must pass into
eternity before the good of which it is susceptible is all developed.
Not to know that any Christian spirit working kindly in its little
sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for
its vast means of usefulness. Not to know that no space of regret can
make amends for one life’s opportunity misused! Yet such was I! Oh!
such was I!”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
As Hamlet's father put it, "I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away
– Valorum
Nov 23 at 18:12
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
Marley will (eventually) receive absolution and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Marley's state in A Christmas Carol is one of purgatory, a ghostly apparition condemned to walk the Earth wrapped in chains that represent the various sins he committed in life (notably usury and avarice) until he's absolved himself of those sins through a mixture of penitence, abasement and mortification. He describes his punishment not as the punishment of Hell, but rather as a "penance" which, by its very definition, will inevitably lead to his receiving absolution and thus gain entry into Heaven.
“How it is that I appear before you in a shape that you can see, I may not tell. I have sat invisible beside you many and many a day.”
It was not an agreeable idea. Scrooge shivered, and wiped the perspiration from his brow.
“That is no light part of my penance,” pursued the Ghost. “I am here to-night to warn you, that you have yet a chance and hope of escaping my fate. A chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer.”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
We find Marley only a few years into his punishment and feeling very sorry for himself. He's convinced that there's insufficient time left before doomday for him to pay sufficient penance for his actions (to receive absolution) but I think we can treat this as hyperbole. He's got a very long way to go, but he'll get there eventually.
“Oh! captive, bound, and double-ironed,” cried the phantom, “not to know, that ages of
incessant labour by immortal creatures, for this earth must pass into
eternity before the good of which it is susceptible is all developed.
Not to know that any Christian spirit working kindly in its little
sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for
its vast means of usefulness. Not to know that no space of regret can
make amends for one life’s opportunity misused! Yet such was I! Oh!
such was I!”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
Marley will (eventually) receive absolution and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Marley's state in A Christmas Carol is one of purgatory, a ghostly apparition condemned to walk the Earth wrapped in chains that represent the various sins he committed in life (notably usury and avarice) until he's absolved himself of those sins through a mixture of penitence, abasement and mortification. He describes his punishment not as the punishment of Hell, but rather as a "penance" which, by its very definition, will inevitably lead to his receiving absolution and thus gain entry into Heaven.
“How it is that I appear before you in a shape that you can see, I may not tell. I have sat invisible beside you many and many a day.”
It was not an agreeable idea. Scrooge shivered, and wiped the perspiration from his brow.
“That is no light part of my penance,” pursued the Ghost. “I am here to-night to warn you, that you have yet a chance and hope of escaping my fate. A chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer.”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
We find Marley only a few years into his punishment and feeling very sorry for himself. He's convinced that there's insufficient time left before doomday for him to pay sufficient penance for his actions (to receive absolution) but I think we can treat this as hyperbole. He's got a very long way to go, but he'll get there eventually.
“Oh! captive, bound, and double-ironed,” cried the phantom, “not to know, that ages of
incessant labour by immortal creatures, for this earth must pass into
eternity before the good of which it is susceptible is all developed.
Not to know that any Christian spirit working kindly in its little
sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for
its vast means of usefulness. Not to know that no space of regret can
make amends for one life’s opportunity misused! Yet such was I! Oh!
such was I!”
A Christmas Carol - Gutenberg Text
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
edited Nov 23 at 23:52
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
answered Nov 23 at 17:44
Valorum
389k10028323066
389k10028323066
As Hamlet's father put it, "I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away
– Valorum
Nov 23 at 18:12
add a comment |
As Hamlet's father put it, "I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away
– Valorum
Nov 23 at 18:12
As Hamlet's father put it, "I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away
– Valorum
Nov 23 at 18:12
As Hamlet's father put it, "I am thy father's spirit, Doomed for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away
– Valorum
Nov 23 at 18:12
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fscifi.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f199154%2fwhat-was-the-fate-of-marley-in-a-christmas-carol-and-beyond%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
2
Was it not implied he went to hell?
– Wooden13
Nov 22 at 19:01
1
@Wooden13 - If you can provide a quote that backs that up, you've got the makings of an excellent answer
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Wooden13 - For the record, I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'd love you to prove otherwise
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:03
@Paulie_D - I see a lot of weasel words; Inferred, implied, etc.
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:05
1
@Paulie_D - Well, Christian mythos allows for more outcomes after death than a simple binary choice between Heaven and Hell
– Valorum
Nov 22 at 19:10