How is quantum mechanics consistent with statistical mechanics?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP












10












$begingroup$


Let's say we have an harmonic oscillator (at Temperature $T$) in a superposition of state 1 and 2:



$$Psi = fracphi_1+phi_2sqrt2$$
where each $phi_i$ has energy $E_i , .$



The probability of finding each the $i$ state would be 50% in this case. However, approaching this problem with statistical mechanics the probability would be proportional to $e^-E_i/k_BT$



What is wrong with my approach?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    10












    $begingroup$


    Let's say we have an harmonic oscillator (at Temperature $T$) in a superposition of state 1 and 2:



    $$Psi = fracphi_1+phi_2sqrt2$$
    where each $phi_i$ has energy $E_i , .$



    The probability of finding each the $i$ state would be 50% in this case. However, approaching this problem with statistical mechanics the probability would be proportional to $e^-E_i/k_BT$



    What is wrong with my approach?










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      10












      10








      10


      4



      $begingroup$


      Let's say we have an harmonic oscillator (at Temperature $T$) in a superposition of state 1 and 2:



      $$Psi = fracphi_1+phi_2sqrt2$$
      where each $phi_i$ has energy $E_i , .$



      The probability of finding each the $i$ state would be 50% in this case. However, approaching this problem with statistical mechanics the probability would be proportional to $e^-E_i/k_BT$



      What is wrong with my approach?










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Let's say we have an harmonic oscillator (at Temperature $T$) in a superposition of state 1 and 2:



      $$Psi = fracphi_1+phi_2sqrt2$$
      where each $phi_i$ has energy $E_i , .$



      The probability of finding each the $i$ state would be 50% in this case. However, approaching this problem with statistical mechanics the probability would be proportional to $e^-E_i/k_BT$



      What is wrong with my approach?







      quantum-mechanics statistical-mechanics temperature probability equilibrium






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Jan 15 at 14:55







      IvanMartinez

















      asked Jan 14 at 14:08









      IvanMartinezIvanMartinez

      11710




      11710




















          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          6












          $begingroup$

          You're comparing the wrong things - you must take the appropriate limits when using statistical physics (or statistical mechanics as you called it) to recover quantum and classical results. Also, recall that when we use statistical physics, we must consider the system in an ensemble formalism, i.e. the canonical ensemble. That is, we consider a (statistically) large number of identically prepared copies of our system: a single harmonic oscillator. Additionally, we must use the quantum version of statistical physics, where the ensemble is characterized by the density operator. For a nice intro to this, see Sakurai.



          This article should answer your questions regarding the case of a single 1D harmonic oscillator potential viewed statistically. For a given temperature, we use the quantized energy of the oscillator to find the partition function in the canonical ensemble.



          Consider the two limits:



          1) Classcial: the thermal energy is much greater than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the classical result that the energy is $kT$.



          2) Quantum: the thermal energy is much less than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the quantum result that for a given frequency the energy is $frac12hbar omega$



          Further, using the appropriate density operator, you can recover the probabilities that you sought:



          the density operator represented as a matrix in the basis $lvert phi_1 rangle, lvert phi_2 rangle $, for the system given by pure state $Psi$ is



          $$ rho = lvert Psi rangle langle Psi lvert = beginpmatrix frac12 & frac12 \ frac12 & frac12 endpmatrix = frac12 beginpmatrix1 & 1 \ 1 & 1endpmatrix$$



          To find the probability of being in state $i$, take,



          $$mathcalP_i = Tr(rho P_i)$$



          where $P_i$ is the projection operator of the $i^th$ state, and Tr means trace.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$




















            26












            $begingroup$

            The question doesn't make sense, as not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium.



            The argument you're making works for classical mechanics too. "Consider a ball lying on the ground." "That's impossible, since by statistical mechanics, the position of the ball must obey the Boltzmann distribution."






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Although not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium, when speaking about a harmonic oscillator at temperature $T$, usually physicists mean that the oscillator is in equilibrium with a thermal bath at that temperature. The question is about such a situation, as compared with the case of a quantum state prepared as a sum of two degenerate states.
              $endgroup$
              – GiorgioP
              Jan 14 at 17:01











            • $begingroup$
              @GiorgioP No, it really doesn't. If the harmonic oscillator is at temperature $T$, then it's in the appropriate thermal state. If it's not at temperature $T$, it doesn't have to be in that state -- there's nothing really to say.
              $endgroup$
              – knzhou
              Jan 14 at 17:03










            • $begingroup$
              You are interpreting the question in a specific way. I feel that my interpretation is more useful for the OP. It is clear that a harmonic oscillator at temperature T cannot stay only in the states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$. But when you take into account this difference, the two apparently different results make sense, since each of them is referring to a different environment for the harmonic oscillator.
              $endgroup$
              – GiorgioP
              Jan 14 at 17:10











            • $begingroup$
              Why is this upvoted so much? Just because you don't understand what they're asking, doesn't make it a nonsensible question. clearly the OP needs to be introduced to quantum stat phys
              $endgroup$
              – N. Steinle
              Jan 14 at 17:42






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @N.Steinle I think you're forcing a more interesting reading on the question than it actually has. Honestly, I'm not sure how you answer the OP's question at all. Why do you even bring up the classical limit at all?
              $endgroup$
              – knzhou
              Jan 14 at 17:47


















            3












            $begingroup$

            This question does make sense.



            It is true that statistical mechanics (or better most of it) is usually limited to ensembles for equilibrium systems and its main task is to provide the basis for the thermodynamic behavior of systems with many degrees of freedom. However this does not imply that it is always meaningless to speak about probabilities of states of even a single particle, provided one is interested to the average behavior in the ensemble, which will correspond to time averages, if the system made by the individual particle and the many degrees of freedom of the canonical ensemble bath correspond to a globally ergodic system.



            Therefore, a single particle in interaction with a thermal bath is a perfectly admissible system on which Statistical Mechanics allows to make statements about probabilities.



            The only difference, which seems to puzzle the OP, between a quantum oscillator whose state is described by the superposition of two degenerate states of energy $E_i$ and the case of the same quantum oscillator in equilibrium with a thermal bath (canonical ensemble), is that the two situations correspond to different events characterized by different external conditions. So, no surprise if the corresponding probabilities are different.



            • In the case of the system in the state $Psi$, there are only two mutually exclusive events (the system is in state $phi_1$, or the system is in state $phi_2$), QM allows to get the probability of the two cases with the proposed state $Psi$, and for each case it turns out to be equal to $0.5$.

            • In the case of the quantum harmonic oscillator (by the way it must be at least a 2D oscillator, if there are degenerate states) the condition of thermal equilibrium with the bath implies that not only the two degenerate states will be visited by the oscillator, but in principle the quantum oscillator will visit all the states. Each state appearing with a frequency proportional to the Boltzmann factor of the corresponding energy (the proportionality factor being the normalization of the probability distribution which is nothing but the quantum canonical partition function of the harmonic oscillator). So, it is not a surprise if the probability of the two states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$ are different from $0.5$.

            It is interesting to notice that there is something which remains the same in the two situations: if the only degenerate states at energy $E_i$ are $phi_1$ and $phi_2$, even if their probability is not $0.5$ anymore, the two probabilities remain equal each other, the Boltzmann factor being the same.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              In your second bullet-point you forgot a for $phi_1$. Can't edit it in, since the change hasn't enough letters...
              $endgroup$
              – Sito
              Jan 14 at 18:03











            • $begingroup$
              @Sito Thank you very much
              $endgroup$
              – GiorgioP
              Jan 14 at 18:07


















            1












            $begingroup$

            In order for the harmonic oscillator to reach equilibrium with another subsystem (the "bath"), it must interact (however weakly) with that subsystem. This means that the Hamiltonian must have the form
            $$
            H = H_textosc+H_textbath+H_textint
            $$

            where the first term affects only the harmonic oscillator, the second term affects only the bath, and the third term describes their interaction. Without the third term, the harmonic oscillator would never reach equilibrium with the bath. And with the third term, the harmonic oscillator inevitably becomes entangled with the bath. After that entanglement is well-developed, with some caveats (large enough bath, etc), the reduced density matrix of the harmonic oscillator alone is proportional to $exp(-H_textosc,/,k_BT)$, where $T$ is determined by the initial conditions of the combined system. This is the thermal state of the oscillator. The generality of this phenomenon is studied in reference [1], which also clarifies the conditions under which it occurs.



            The state-vector or density matrix that we use to describe the harmonic oscillator is a representation of what we know about how the state was prepared. If we use $|psirangle = |phi_1rangle+|phi_2rangle$ to represent the state of the harmonic oscillator (as described in the OP), then we are saying, among other things, that the oscillator is not entangled with the bath. Then it is not in equilibrium with the bath, at least not yet, so its temperature is not (yet) defined.



            To be fair, we could ask about the relationship between equilibrium-style entanglement and the quantum measurement problem, like this: Does equilibrium-style entanglement constitute a "measurement", in which case we can treat the state of the oscillator as effectively not entangled with the bath at any given moment? I won't try to address that here, even though I think it's a good question that deserves a good answer.




            [1] Linden et al, (2008), "Quantum mechanical evolution towards thermal equilibrium," http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.2385






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












              Your Answer





              StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
              return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
              StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
              StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
              );
              );
              , "mathjax-editing");

              StackExchange.ready(function()
              var channelOptions =
              tags: "".split(" "),
              id: "151"
              ;
              initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

              StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
              // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
              if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
              StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
              createEditor();
              );

              else
              createEditor();

              );

              function createEditor()
              StackExchange.prepareEditor(
              heartbeatType: 'answer',
              autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
              convertImagesToLinks: false,
              noModals: true,
              showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
              reputationToPostImages: null,
              bindNavPrevention: true,
              postfix: "",
              imageUploader:
              brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
              contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
              allowUrls: true
              ,
              noCode: true, onDemand: true,
              discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
              ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
              );



              );













              draft saved

              draft discarded


















              StackExchange.ready(
              function ()
              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f454158%2fhow-is-quantum-mechanics-consistent-with-statistical-mechanics%23new-answer', 'question_page');

              );

              Post as a guest















              Required, but never shown

























              4 Answers
              4






              active

              oldest

              votes








              4 Answers
              4






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              6












              $begingroup$

              You're comparing the wrong things - you must take the appropriate limits when using statistical physics (or statistical mechanics as you called it) to recover quantum and classical results. Also, recall that when we use statistical physics, we must consider the system in an ensemble formalism, i.e. the canonical ensemble. That is, we consider a (statistically) large number of identically prepared copies of our system: a single harmonic oscillator. Additionally, we must use the quantum version of statistical physics, where the ensemble is characterized by the density operator. For a nice intro to this, see Sakurai.



              This article should answer your questions regarding the case of a single 1D harmonic oscillator potential viewed statistically. For a given temperature, we use the quantized energy of the oscillator to find the partition function in the canonical ensemble.



              Consider the two limits:



              1) Classcial: the thermal energy is much greater than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the classical result that the energy is $kT$.



              2) Quantum: the thermal energy is much less than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the quantum result that for a given frequency the energy is $frac12hbar omega$



              Further, using the appropriate density operator, you can recover the probabilities that you sought:



              the density operator represented as a matrix in the basis $lvert phi_1 rangle, lvert phi_2 rangle $, for the system given by pure state $Psi$ is



              $$ rho = lvert Psi rangle langle Psi lvert = beginpmatrix frac12 & frac12 \ frac12 & frac12 endpmatrix = frac12 beginpmatrix1 & 1 \ 1 & 1endpmatrix$$



              To find the probability of being in state $i$, take,



              $$mathcalP_i = Tr(rho P_i)$$



              where $P_i$ is the projection operator of the $i^th$ state, and Tr means trace.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$

















                6












                $begingroup$

                You're comparing the wrong things - you must take the appropriate limits when using statistical physics (or statistical mechanics as you called it) to recover quantum and classical results. Also, recall that when we use statistical physics, we must consider the system in an ensemble formalism, i.e. the canonical ensemble. That is, we consider a (statistically) large number of identically prepared copies of our system: a single harmonic oscillator. Additionally, we must use the quantum version of statistical physics, where the ensemble is characterized by the density operator. For a nice intro to this, see Sakurai.



                This article should answer your questions regarding the case of a single 1D harmonic oscillator potential viewed statistically. For a given temperature, we use the quantized energy of the oscillator to find the partition function in the canonical ensemble.



                Consider the two limits:



                1) Classcial: the thermal energy is much greater than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the classical result that the energy is $kT$.



                2) Quantum: the thermal energy is much less than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the quantum result that for a given frequency the energy is $frac12hbar omega$



                Further, using the appropriate density operator, you can recover the probabilities that you sought:



                the density operator represented as a matrix in the basis $lvert phi_1 rangle, lvert phi_2 rangle $, for the system given by pure state $Psi$ is



                $$ rho = lvert Psi rangle langle Psi lvert = beginpmatrix frac12 & frac12 \ frac12 & frac12 endpmatrix = frac12 beginpmatrix1 & 1 \ 1 & 1endpmatrix$$



                To find the probability of being in state $i$, take,



                $$mathcalP_i = Tr(rho P_i)$$



                where $P_i$ is the projection operator of the $i^th$ state, and Tr means trace.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                  6












                  6








                  6





                  $begingroup$

                  You're comparing the wrong things - you must take the appropriate limits when using statistical physics (or statistical mechanics as you called it) to recover quantum and classical results. Also, recall that when we use statistical physics, we must consider the system in an ensemble formalism, i.e. the canonical ensemble. That is, we consider a (statistically) large number of identically prepared copies of our system: a single harmonic oscillator. Additionally, we must use the quantum version of statistical physics, where the ensemble is characterized by the density operator. For a nice intro to this, see Sakurai.



                  This article should answer your questions regarding the case of a single 1D harmonic oscillator potential viewed statistically. For a given temperature, we use the quantized energy of the oscillator to find the partition function in the canonical ensemble.



                  Consider the two limits:



                  1) Classcial: the thermal energy is much greater than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the classical result that the energy is $kT$.



                  2) Quantum: the thermal energy is much less than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the quantum result that for a given frequency the energy is $frac12hbar omega$



                  Further, using the appropriate density operator, you can recover the probabilities that you sought:



                  the density operator represented as a matrix in the basis $lvert phi_1 rangle, lvert phi_2 rangle $, for the system given by pure state $Psi$ is



                  $$ rho = lvert Psi rangle langle Psi lvert = beginpmatrix frac12 & frac12 \ frac12 & frac12 endpmatrix = frac12 beginpmatrix1 & 1 \ 1 & 1endpmatrix$$



                  To find the probability of being in state $i$, take,



                  $$mathcalP_i = Tr(rho P_i)$$



                  where $P_i$ is the projection operator of the $i^th$ state, and Tr means trace.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  You're comparing the wrong things - you must take the appropriate limits when using statistical physics (or statistical mechanics as you called it) to recover quantum and classical results. Also, recall that when we use statistical physics, we must consider the system in an ensemble formalism, i.e. the canonical ensemble. That is, we consider a (statistically) large number of identically prepared copies of our system: a single harmonic oscillator. Additionally, we must use the quantum version of statistical physics, where the ensemble is characterized by the density operator. For a nice intro to this, see Sakurai.



                  This article should answer your questions regarding the case of a single 1D harmonic oscillator potential viewed statistically. For a given temperature, we use the quantized energy of the oscillator to find the partition function in the canonical ensemble.



                  Consider the two limits:



                  1) Classcial: the thermal energy is much greater than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the classical result that the energy is $kT$.



                  2) Quantum: the thermal energy is much less than the spacing of oscillator energies. Here, one recovers the quantum result that for a given frequency the energy is $frac12hbar omega$



                  Further, using the appropriate density operator, you can recover the probabilities that you sought:



                  the density operator represented as a matrix in the basis $lvert phi_1 rangle, lvert phi_2 rangle $, for the system given by pure state $Psi$ is



                  $$ rho = lvert Psi rangle langle Psi lvert = beginpmatrix frac12 & frac12 \ frac12 & frac12 endpmatrix = frac12 beginpmatrix1 & 1 \ 1 & 1endpmatrix$$



                  To find the probability of being in state $i$, take,



                  $$mathcalP_i = Tr(rho P_i)$$



                  where $P_i$ is the projection operator of the $i^th$ state, and Tr means trace.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Jan 14 at 23:16

























                  answered Jan 14 at 16:02









                  N. SteinleN. Steinle

                  1,537118




                  1,537118





















                      26












                      $begingroup$

                      The question doesn't make sense, as not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium.



                      The argument you're making works for classical mechanics too. "Consider a ball lying on the ground." "That's impossible, since by statistical mechanics, the position of the ball must obey the Boltzmann distribution."






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Although not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium, when speaking about a harmonic oscillator at temperature $T$, usually physicists mean that the oscillator is in equilibrium with a thermal bath at that temperature. The question is about such a situation, as compared with the case of a quantum state prepared as a sum of two degenerate states.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:01











                      • $begingroup$
                        @GiorgioP No, it really doesn't. If the harmonic oscillator is at temperature $T$, then it's in the appropriate thermal state. If it's not at temperature $T$, it doesn't have to be in that state -- there's nothing really to say.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        You are interpreting the question in a specific way. I feel that my interpretation is more useful for the OP. It is clear that a harmonic oscillator at temperature T cannot stay only in the states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$. But when you take into account this difference, the two apparently different results make sense, since each of them is referring to a different environment for the harmonic oscillator.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:10











                      • $begingroup$
                        Why is this upvoted so much? Just because you don't understand what they're asking, doesn't make it a nonsensible question. clearly the OP needs to be introduced to quantum stat phys
                        $endgroup$
                        – N. Steinle
                        Jan 14 at 17:42






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @N.Steinle I think you're forcing a more interesting reading on the question than it actually has. Honestly, I'm not sure how you answer the OP's question at all. Why do you even bring up the classical limit at all?
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:47















                      26












                      $begingroup$

                      The question doesn't make sense, as not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium.



                      The argument you're making works for classical mechanics too. "Consider a ball lying on the ground." "That's impossible, since by statistical mechanics, the position of the ball must obey the Boltzmann distribution."






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$








                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Although not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium, when speaking about a harmonic oscillator at temperature $T$, usually physicists mean that the oscillator is in equilibrium with a thermal bath at that temperature. The question is about such a situation, as compared with the case of a quantum state prepared as a sum of two degenerate states.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:01











                      • $begingroup$
                        @GiorgioP No, it really doesn't. If the harmonic oscillator is at temperature $T$, then it's in the appropriate thermal state. If it's not at temperature $T$, it doesn't have to be in that state -- there's nothing really to say.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        You are interpreting the question in a specific way. I feel that my interpretation is more useful for the OP. It is clear that a harmonic oscillator at temperature T cannot stay only in the states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$. But when you take into account this difference, the two apparently different results make sense, since each of them is referring to a different environment for the harmonic oscillator.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:10











                      • $begingroup$
                        Why is this upvoted so much? Just because you don't understand what they're asking, doesn't make it a nonsensible question. clearly the OP needs to be introduced to quantum stat phys
                        $endgroup$
                        – N. Steinle
                        Jan 14 at 17:42






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @N.Steinle I think you're forcing a more interesting reading on the question than it actually has. Honestly, I'm not sure how you answer the OP's question at all. Why do you even bring up the classical limit at all?
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:47













                      26












                      26








                      26





                      $begingroup$

                      The question doesn't make sense, as not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium.



                      The argument you're making works for classical mechanics too. "Consider a ball lying on the ground." "That's impossible, since by statistical mechanics, the position of the ball must obey the Boltzmann distribution."






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      The question doesn't make sense, as not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium.



                      The argument you're making works for classical mechanics too. "Consider a ball lying on the ground." "That's impossible, since by statistical mechanics, the position of the ball must obey the Boltzmann distribution."







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Jan 14 at 16:26

























                      answered Jan 14 at 14:46









                      knzhouknzhou

                      43.5k11118207




                      43.5k11118207







                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Although not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium, when speaking about a harmonic oscillator at temperature $T$, usually physicists mean that the oscillator is in equilibrium with a thermal bath at that temperature. The question is about such a situation, as compared with the case of a quantum state prepared as a sum of two degenerate states.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:01











                      • $begingroup$
                        @GiorgioP No, it really doesn't. If the harmonic oscillator is at temperature $T$, then it's in the appropriate thermal state. If it's not at temperature $T$, it doesn't have to be in that state -- there's nothing really to say.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        You are interpreting the question in a specific way. I feel that my interpretation is more useful for the OP. It is clear that a harmonic oscillator at temperature T cannot stay only in the states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$. But when you take into account this difference, the two apparently different results make sense, since each of them is referring to a different environment for the harmonic oscillator.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:10











                      • $begingroup$
                        Why is this upvoted so much? Just because you don't understand what they're asking, doesn't make it a nonsensible question. clearly the OP needs to be introduced to quantum stat phys
                        $endgroup$
                        – N. Steinle
                        Jan 14 at 17:42






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @N.Steinle I think you're forcing a more interesting reading on the question than it actually has. Honestly, I'm not sure how you answer the OP's question at all. Why do you even bring up the classical limit at all?
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:47












                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Although not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium, when speaking about a harmonic oscillator at temperature $T$, usually physicists mean that the oscillator is in equilibrium with a thermal bath at that temperature. The question is about such a situation, as compared with the case of a quantum state prepared as a sum of two degenerate states.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:01











                      • $begingroup$
                        @GiorgioP No, it really doesn't. If the harmonic oscillator is at temperature $T$, then it's in the appropriate thermal state. If it's not at temperature $T$, it doesn't have to be in that state -- there's nothing really to say.
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:03










                      • $begingroup$
                        You are interpreting the question in a specific way. I feel that my interpretation is more useful for the OP. It is clear that a harmonic oscillator at temperature T cannot stay only in the states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$. But when you take into account this difference, the two apparently different results make sense, since each of them is referring to a different environment for the harmonic oscillator.
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 17:10











                      • $begingroup$
                        Why is this upvoted so much? Just because you don't understand what they're asking, doesn't make it a nonsensible question. clearly the OP needs to be introduced to quantum stat phys
                        $endgroup$
                        – N. Steinle
                        Jan 14 at 17:42






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @N.Steinle I think you're forcing a more interesting reading on the question than it actually has. Honestly, I'm not sure how you answer the OP's question at all. Why do you even bring up the classical limit at all?
                        $endgroup$
                        – knzhou
                        Jan 14 at 17:47







                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      Although not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium, when speaking about a harmonic oscillator at temperature $T$, usually physicists mean that the oscillator is in equilibrium with a thermal bath at that temperature. The question is about such a situation, as compared with the case of a quantum state prepared as a sum of two degenerate states.
                      $endgroup$
                      – GiorgioP
                      Jan 14 at 17:01





                      $begingroup$
                      Although not every system has to be in thermal equilibrium, when speaking about a harmonic oscillator at temperature $T$, usually physicists mean that the oscillator is in equilibrium with a thermal bath at that temperature. The question is about such a situation, as compared with the case of a quantum state prepared as a sum of two degenerate states.
                      $endgroup$
                      – GiorgioP
                      Jan 14 at 17:01













                      $begingroup$
                      @GiorgioP No, it really doesn't. If the harmonic oscillator is at temperature $T$, then it's in the appropriate thermal state. If it's not at temperature $T$, it doesn't have to be in that state -- there's nothing really to say.
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 14 at 17:03




                      $begingroup$
                      @GiorgioP No, it really doesn't. If the harmonic oscillator is at temperature $T$, then it's in the appropriate thermal state. If it's not at temperature $T$, it doesn't have to be in that state -- there's nothing really to say.
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 14 at 17:03












                      $begingroup$
                      You are interpreting the question in a specific way. I feel that my interpretation is more useful for the OP. It is clear that a harmonic oscillator at temperature T cannot stay only in the states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$. But when you take into account this difference, the two apparently different results make sense, since each of them is referring to a different environment for the harmonic oscillator.
                      $endgroup$
                      – GiorgioP
                      Jan 14 at 17:10





                      $begingroup$
                      You are interpreting the question in a specific way. I feel that my interpretation is more useful for the OP. It is clear that a harmonic oscillator at temperature T cannot stay only in the states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$. But when you take into account this difference, the two apparently different results make sense, since each of them is referring to a different environment for the harmonic oscillator.
                      $endgroup$
                      – GiorgioP
                      Jan 14 at 17:10













                      $begingroup$
                      Why is this upvoted so much? Just because you don't understand what they're asking, doesn't make it a nonsensible question. clearly the OP needs to be introduced to quantum stat phys
                      $endgroup$
                      – N. Steinle
                      Jan 14 at 17:42




                      $begingroup$
                      Why is this upvoted so much? Just because you don't understand what they're asking, doesn't make it a nonsensible question. clearly the OP needs to be introduced to quantum stat phys
                      $endgroup$
                      – N. Steinle
                      Jan 14 at 17:42




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      @N.Steinle I think you're forcing a more interesting reading on the question than it actually has. Honestly, I'm not sure how you answer the OP's question at all. Why do you even bring up the classical limit at all?
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 14 at 17:47




                      $begingroup$
                      @N.Steinle I think you're forcing a more interesting reading on the question than it actually has. Honestly, I'm not sure how you answer the OP's question at all. Why do you even bring up the classical limit at all?
                      $endgroup$
                      – knzhou
                      Jan 14 at 17:47











                      3












                      $begingroup$

                      This question does make sense.



                      It is true that statistical mechanics (or better most of it) is usually limited to ensembles for equilibrium systems and its main task is to provide the basis for the thermodynamic behavior of systems with many degrees of freedom. However this does not imply that it is always meaningless to speak about probabilities of states of even a single particle, provided one is interested to the average behavior in the ensemble, which will correspond to time averages, if the system made by the individual particle and the many degrees of freedom of the canonical ensemble bath correspond to a globally ergodic system.



                      Therefore, a single particle in interaction with a thermal bath is a perfectly admissible system on which Statistical Mechanics allows to make statements about probabilities.



                      The only difference, which seems to puzzle the OP, between a quantum oscillator whose state is described by the superposition of two degenerate states of energy $E_i$ and the case of the same quantum oscillator in equilibrium with a thermal bath (canonical ensemble), is that the two situations correspond to different events characterized by different external conditions. So, no surprise if the corresponding probabilities are different.



                      • In the case of the system in the state $Psi$, there are only two mutually exclusive events (the system is in state $phi_1$, or the system is in state $phi_2$), QM allows to get the probability of the two cases with the proposed state $Psi$, and for each case it turns out to be equal to $0.5$.

                      • In the case of the quantum harmonic oscillator (by the way it must be at least a 2D oscillator, if there are degenerate states) the condition of thermal equilibrium with the bath implies that not only the two degenerate states will be visited by the oscillator, but in principle the quantum oscillator will visit all the states. Each state appearing with a frequency proportional to the Boltzmann factor of the corresponding energy (the proportionality factor being the normalization of the probability distribution which is nothing but the quantum canonical partition function of the harmonic oscillator). So, it is not a surprise if the probability of the two states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$ are different from $0.5$.

                      It is interesting to notice that there is something which remains the same in the two situations: if the only degenerate states at energy $E_i$ are $phi_1$ and $phi_2$, even if their probability is not $0.5$ anymore, the two probabilities remain equal each other, the Boltzmann factor being the same.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        In your second bullet-point you forgot a for $phi_1$. Can't edit it in, since the change hasn't enough letters...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Sito
                        Jan 14 at 18:03











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Sito Thank you very much
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 18:07















                      3












                      $begingroup$

                      This question does make sense.



                      It is true that statistical mechanics (or better most of it) is usually limited to ensembles for equilibrium systems and its main task is to provide the basis for the thermodynamic behavior of systems with many degrees of freedom. However this does not imply that it is always meaningless to speak about probabilities of states of even a single particle, provided one is interested to the average behavior in the ensemble, which will correspond to time averages, if the system made by the individual particle and the many degrees of freedom of the canonical ensemble bath correspond to a globally ergodic system.



                      Therefore, a single particle in interaction with a thermal bath is a perfectly admissible system on which Statistical Mechanics allows to make statements about probabilities.



                      The only difference, which seems to puzzle the OP, between a quantum oscillator whose state is described by the superposition of two degenerate states of energy $E_i$ and the case of the same quantum oscillator in equilibrium with a thermal bath (canonical ensemble), is that the two situations correspond to different events characterized by different external conditions. So, no surprise if the corresponding probabilities are different.



                      • In the case of the system in the state $Psi$, there are only two mutually exclusive events (the system is in state $phi_1$, or the system is in state $phi_2$), QM allows to get the probability of the two cases with the proposed state $Psi$, and for each case it turns out to be equal to $0.5$.

                      • In the case of the quantum harmonic oscillator (by the way it must be at least a 2D oscillator, if there are degenerate states) the condition of thermal equilibrium with the bath implies that not only the two degenerate states will be visited by the oscillator, but in principle the quantum oscillator will visit all the states. Each state appearing with a frequency proportional to the Boltzmann factor of the corresponding energy (the proportionality factor being the normalization of the probability distribution which is nothing but the quantum canonical partition function of the harmonic oscillator). So, it is not a surprise if the probability of the two states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$ are different from $0.5$.

                      It is interesting to notice that there is something which remains the same in the two situations: if the only degenerate states at energy $E_i$ are $phi_1$ and $phi_2$, even if their probability is not $0.5$ anymore, the two probabilities remain equal each other, the Boltzmann factor being the same.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        In your second bullet-point you forgot a for $phi_1$. Can't edit it in, since the change hasn't enough letters...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Sito
                        Jan 14 at 18:03











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Sito Thank you very much
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 18:07













                      3












                      3








                      3





                      $begingroup$

                      This question does make sense.



                      It is true that statistical mechanics (or better most of it) is usually limited to ensembles for equilibrium systems and its main task is to provide the basis for the thermodynamic behavior of systems with many degrees of freedom. However this does not imply that it is always meaningless to speak about probabilities of states of even a single particle, provided one is interested to the average behavior in the ensemble, which will correspond to time averages, if the system made by the individual particle and the many degrees of freedom of the canonical ensemble bath correspond to a globally ergodic system.



                      Therefore, a single particle in interaction with a thermal bath is a perfectly admissible system on which Statistical Mechanics allows to make statements about probabilities.



                      The only difference, which seems to puzzle the OP, between a quantum oscillator whose state is described by the superposition of two degenerate states of energy $E_i$ and the case of the same quantum oscillator in equilibrium with a thermal bath (canonical ensemble), is that the two situations correspond to different events characterized by different external conditions. So, no surprise if the corresponding probabilities are different.



                      • In the case of the system in the state $Psi$, there are only two mutually exclusive events (the system is in state $phi_1$, or the system is in state $phi_2$), QM allows to get the probability of the two cases with the proposed state $Psi$, and for each case it turns out to be equal to $0.5$.

                      • In the case of the quantum harmonic oscillator (by the way it must be at least a 2D oscillator, if there are degenerate states) the condition of thermal equilibrium with the bath implies that not only the two degenerate states will be visited by the oscillator, but in principle the quantum oscillator will visit all the states. Each state appearing with a frequency proportional to the Boltzmann factor of the corresponding energy (the proportionality factor being the normalization of the probability distribution which is nothing but the quantum canonical partition function of the harmonic oscillator). So, it is not a surprise if the probability of the two states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$ are different from $0.5$.

                      It is interesting to notice that there is something which remains the same in the two situations: if the only degenerate states at energy $E_i$ are $phi_1$ and $phi_2$, even if their probability is not $0.5$ anymore, the two probabilities remain equal each other, the Boltzmann factor being the same.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      This question does make sense.



                      It is true that statistical mechanics (or better most of it) is usually limited to ensembles for equilibrium systems and its main task is to provide the basis for the thermodynamic behavior of systems with many degrees of freedom. However this does not imply that it is always meaningless to speak about probabilities of states of even a single particle, provided one is interested to the average behavior in the ensemble, which will correspond to time averages, if the system made by the individual particle and the many degrees of freedom of the canonical ensemble bath correspond to a globally ergodic system.



                      Therefore, a single particle in interaction with a thermal bath is a perfectly admissible system on which Statistical Mechanics allows to make statements about probabilities.



                      The only difference, which seems to puzzle the OP, between a quantum oscillator whose state is described by the superposition of two degenerate states of energy $E_i$ and the case of the same quantum oscillator in equilibrium with a thermal bath (canonical ensemble), is that the two situations correspond to different events characterized by different external conditions. So, no surprise if the corresponding probabilities are different.



                      • In the case of the system in the state $Psi$, there are only two mutually exclusive events (the system is in state $phi_1$, or the system is in state $phi_2$), QM allows to get the probability of the two cases with the proposed state $Psi$, and for each case it turns out to be equal to $0.5$.

                      • In the case of the quantum harmonic oscillator (by the way it must be at least a 2D oscillator, if there are degenerate states) the condition of thermal equilibrium with the bath implies that not only the two degenerate states will be visited by the oscillator, but in principle the quantum oscillator will visit all the states. Each state appearing with a frequency proportional to the Boltzmann factor of the corresponding energy (the proportionality factor being the normalization of the probability distribution which is nothing but the quantum canonical partition function of the harmonic oscillator). So, it is not a surprise if the probability of the two states $phi_1$ and $phi_2$ are different from $0.5$.

                      It is interesting to notice that there is something which remains the same in the two situations: if the only degenerate states at energy $E_i$ are $phi_1$ and $phi_2$, even if their probability is not $0.5$ anymore, the two probabilities remain equal each other, the Boltzmann factor being the same.







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Jan 14 at 18:05

























                      answered Jan 14 at 16:56









                      GiorgioPGiorgioP

                      2,683319




                      2,683319











                      • $begingroup$
                        In your second bullet-point you forgot a for $phi_1$. Can't edit it in, since the change hasn't enough letters...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Sito
                        Jan 14 at 18:03











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Sito Thank you very much
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 18:07
















                      • $begingroup$
                        In your second bullet-point you forgot a for $phi_1$. Can't edit it in, since the change hasn't enough letters...
                        $endgroup$
                        – Sito
                        Jan 14 at 18:03











                      • $begingroup$
                        @Sito Thank you very much
                        $endgroup$
                        – GiorgioP
                        Jan 14 at 18:07















                      $begingroup$
                      In your second bullet-point you forgot a for $phi_1$. Can't edit it in, since the change hasn't enough letters...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Sito
                      Jan 14 at 18:03





                      $begingroup$
                      In your second bullet-point you forgot a for $phi_1$. Can't edit it in, since the change hasn't enough letters...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Sito
                      Jan 14 at 18:03













                      $begingroup$
                      @Sito Thank you very much
                      $endgroup$
                      – GiorgioP
                      Jan 14 at 18:07




                      $begingroup$
                      @Sito Thank you very much
                      $endgroup$
                      – GiorgioP
                      Jan 14 at 18:07











                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      In order for the harmonic oscillator to reach equilibrium with another subsystem (the "bath"), it must interact (however weakly) with that subsystem. This means that the Hamiltonian must have the form
                      $$
                      H = H_textosc+H_textbath+H_textint
                      $$

                      where the first term affects only the harmonic oscillator, the second term affects only the bath, and the third term describes their interaction. Without the third term, the harmonic oscillator would never reach equilibrium with the bath. And with the third term, the harmonic oscillator inevitably becomes entangled with the bath. After that entanglement is well-developed, with some caveats (large enough bath, etc), the reduced density matrix of the harmonic oscillator alone is proportional to $exp(-H_textosc,/,k_BT)$, where $T$ is determined by the initial conditions of the combined system. This is the thermal state of the oscillator. The generality of this phenomenon is studied in reference [1], which also clarifies the conditions under which it occurs.



                      The state-vector or density matrix that we use to describe the harmonic oscillator is a representation of what we know about how the state was prepared. If we use $|psirangle = |phi_1rangle+|phi_2rangle$ to represent the state of the harmonic oscillator (as described in the OP), then we are saying, among other things, that the oscillator is not entangled with the bath. Then it is not in equilibrium with the bath, at least not yet, so its temperature is not (yet) defined.



                      To be fair, we could ask about the relationship between equilibrium-style entanglement and the quantum measurement problem, like this: Does equilibrium-style entanglement constitute a "measurement", in which case we can treat the state of the oscillator as effectively not entangled with the bath at any given moment? I won't try to address that here, even though I think it's a good question that deserves a good answer.




                      [1] Linden et al, (2008), "Quantum mechanical evolution towards thermal equilibrium," http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.2385






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$

















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        In order for the harmonic oscillator to reach equilibrium with another subsystem (the "bath"), it must interact (however weakly) with that subsystem. This means that the Hamiltonian must have the form
                        $$
                        H = H_textosc+H_textbath+H_textint
                        $$

                        where the first term affects only the harmonic oscillator, the second term affects only the bath, and the third term describes their interaction. Without the third term, the harmonic oscillator would never reach equilibrium with the bath. And with the third term, the harmonic oscillator inevitably becomes entangled with the bath. After that entanglement is well-developed, with some caveats (large enough bath, etc), the reduced density matrix of the harmonic oscillator alone is proportional to $exp(-H_textosc,/,k_BT)$, where $T$ is determined by the initial conditions of the combined system. This is the thermal state of the oscillator. The generality of this phenomenon is studied in reference [1], which also clarifies the conditions under which it occurs.



                        The state-vector or density matrix that we use to describe the harmonic oscillator is a representation of what we know about how the state was prepared. If we use $|psirangle = |phi_1rangle+|phi_2rangle$ to represent the state of the harmonic oscillator (as described in the OP), then we are saying, among other things, that the oscillator is not entangled with the bath. Then it is not in equilibrium with the bath, at least not yet, so its temperature is not (yet) defined.



                        To be fair, we could ask about the relationship between equilibrium-style entanglement and the quantum measurement problem, like this: Does equilibrium-style entanglement constitute a "measurement", in which case we can treat the state of the oscillator as effectively not entangled with the bath at any given moment? I won't try to address that here, even though I think it's a good question that deserves a good answer.




                        [1] Linden et al, (2008), "Quantum mechanical evolution towards thermal equilibrium," http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.2385






                        share|cite|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$















                          1












                          1








                          1





                          $begingroup$

                          In order for the harmonic oscillator to reach equilibrium with another subsystem (the "bath"), it must interact (however weakly) with that subsystem. This means that the Hamiltonian must have the form
                          $$
                          H = H_textosc+H_textbath+H_textint
                          $$

                          where the first term affects only the harmonic oscillator, the second term affects only the bath, and the third term describes their interaction. Without the third term, the harmonic oscillator would never reach equilibrium with the bath. And with the third term, the harmonic oscillator inevitably becomes entangled with the bath. After that entanglement is well-developed, with some caveats (large enough bath, etc), the reduced density matrix of the harmonic oscillator alone is proportional to $exp(-H_textosc,/,k_BT)$, where $T$ is determined by the initial conditions of the combined system. This is the thermal state of the oscillator. The generality of this phenomenon is studied in reference [1], which also clarifies the conditions under which it occurs.



                          The state-vector or density matrix that we use to describe the harmonic oscillator is a representation of what we know about how the state was prepared. If we use $|psirangle = |phi_1rangle+|phi_2rangle$ to represent the state of the harmonic oscillator (as described in the OP), then we are saying, among other things, that the oscillator is not entangled with the bath. Then it is not in equilibrium with the bath, at least not yet, so its temperature is not (yet) defined.



                          To be fair, we could ask about the relationship between equilibrium-style entanglement and the quantum measurement problem, like this: Does equilibrium-style entanglement constitute a "measurement", in which case we can treat the state of the oscillator as effectively not entangled with the bath at any given moment? I won't try to address that here, even though I think it's a good question that deserves a good answer.




                          [1] Linden et al, (2008), "Quantum mechanical evolution towards thermal equilibrium," http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.2385






                          share|cite|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$



                          In order for the harmonic oscillator to reach equilibrium with another subsystem (the "bath"), it must interact (however weakly) with that subsystem. This means that the Hamiltonian must have the form
                          $$
                          H = H_textosc+H_textbath+H_textint
                          $$

                          where the first term affects only the harmonic oscillator, the second term affects only the bath, and the third term describes their interaction. Without the third term, the harmonic oscillator would never reach equilibrium with the bath. And with the third term, the harmonic oscillator inevitably becomes entangled with the bath. After that entanglement is well-developed, with some caveats (large enough bath, etc), the reduced density matrix of the harmonic oscillator alone is proportional to $exp(-H_textosc,/,k_BT)$, where $T$ is determined by the initial conditions of the combined system. This is the thermal state of the oscillator. The generality of this phenomenon is studied in reference [1], which also clarifies the conditions under which it occurs.



                          The state-vector or density matrix that we use to describe the harmonic oscillator is a representation of what we know about how the state was prepared. If we use $|psirangle = |phi_1rangle+|phi_2rangle$ to represent the state of the harmonic oscillator (as described in the OP), then we are saying, among other things, that the oscillator is not entangled with the bath. Then it is not in equilibrium with the bath, at least not yet, so its temperature is not (yet) defined.



                          To be fair, we could ask about the relationship between equilibrium-style entanglement and the quantum measurement problem, like this: Does equilibrium-style entanglement constitute a "measurement", in which case we can treat the state of the oscillator as effectively not entangled with the bath at any given moment? I won't try to address that here, even though I think it's a good question that deserves a good answer.




                          [1] Linden et al, (2008), "Quantum mechanical evolution towards thermal equilibrium," http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.2385







                          share|cite|improve this answer














                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer








                          edited Jan 15 at 4:50

























                          answered Jan 15 at 3:58









                          Dan YandDan Yand

                          9,49421536




                          9,49421536



























                              draft saved

                              draft discarded
















































                              Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


                              • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                              But avoid


                              • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                              • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                              Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                              To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                              draft saved


                              draft discarded














                              StackExchange.ready(
                              function ()
                              StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f454158%2fhow-is-quantum-mechanics-consistent-with-statistical-mechanics%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                              );

                              Post as a guest















                              Required, but never shown





















































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown

































                              Required, but never shown














                              Required, but never shown












                              Required, but never shown







                              Required, but never shown






                              Popular posts from this blog

                              How to check contact read email or not when send email to Individual?

                              Displaying single band from multi-band raster using QGIS

                              How many registers does an x86_64 CPU actually have?