Proving a set to be countable
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A set $S = leftlbrace left( x, y right) vert x^2 + y^2 = dfrac1n^2, text where n in mathbbN text and either x in mathbbQ text or y in mathbbQ rightrbrace$ is given. I need to prove that this is countable.
I have tried looking for a bijection $f: mathbbQ rightarrow S$ as $f left( x right) = left( x, y right)$ where $y$ is a fixed real number such that the property of the set is satisfied.
Clearly, this function is not even a surjection.
How should we define our bijection so that we prove $S$ is countable?
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
add a comment |
A set $S = leftlbrace left( x, y right) vert x^2 + y^2 = dfrac1n^2, text where n in mathbbN text and either x in mathbbQ text or y in mathbbQ rightrbrace$ is given. I need to prove that this is countable.
I have tried looking for a bijection $f: mathbbQ rightarrow S$ as $f left( x right) = left( x, y right)$ where $y$ is a fixed real number such that the property of the set is satisfied.
Clearly, this function is not even a surjection.
How should we define our bijection so that we prove $S$ is countable?
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
add a comment |
A set $S = leftlbrace left( x, y right) vert x^2 + y^2 = dfrac1n^2, text where n in mathbbN text and either x in mathbbQ text or y in mathbbQ rightrbrace$ is given. I need to prove that this is countable.
I have tried looking for a bijection $f: mathbbQ rightarrow S$ as $f left( x right) = left( x, y right)$ where $y$ is a fixed real number such that the property of the set is satisfied.
Clearly, this function is not even a surjection.
How should we define our bijection so that we prove $S$ is countable?
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
A set $S = leftlbrace left( x, y right) vert x^2 + y^2 = dfrac1n^2, text where n in mathbbN text and either x in mathbbQ text or y in mathbbQ rightrbrace$ is given. I need to prove that this is countable.
I have tried looking for a bijection $f: mathbbQ rightarrow S$ as $f left( x right) = left( x, y right)$ where $y$ is a fixed real number such that the property of the set is satisfied.
Clearly, this function is not even a surjection.
How should we define our bijection so that we prove $S$ is countable?
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
asked Dec 14 at 4:37
Aniruddha Deshmukh
899418
899418
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
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If you index on $x$ and $n$, you can do the following. Let
$$
E_n=mathbb Qcap left[-tfrac1n^2,tfrac1n^2right].
$$
This sets $E_n$ are countable, because they are subsets of $mathbb Q$.
Then $S=S_1cup S_2$, where
$$
S_1=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_xin E_nleftleft(x,sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)rightcupleftleft(x,-sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)right
$$
$$
S_2=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_yin E_nleftleft(sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)rightcupleftleft(-sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)right
$$
We can map this to a subset of $(mathbb Ntimesmathbb Qtimes1,2)^2$. And this last set is countable, so $S$ is countable.
The key fact is that subsets of countable sets are countable, and that finite cartesian products of countable sets are countable.
The way you have written the union for $S$, only takes into consideration when $x$ is rational and $y$ can be anything. What if it goes the other way round?
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:52
Or do you want to say that the final mapping would be $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, x, 1 right)$ if $x$ is rational and $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, y, 2 right)$ if $y$ is rational but $x$ is not.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:53
Yes, you are right. I needed to duplicate the sets. It's done now.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 4:58
Why are we mapping it to $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)^2$? I think $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)$ should work with the mapping I defined in the comment.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 5:00
I'm using the 1 and 2 to count the positive and negative roots. There is some overlapping, but it's not a big deal. The maps as you say also work, I think.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 5:04
|
show 1 more comment
Note that $x^2=frac1n^2-y^2$ and $y^2=frac1n^2-x^2$. So if $y$ is rational, then $x^2$ is rational as well, and likewise for $y^2$ if $x$ is rational.
Therefore you can define a surjection from the collection of all roots of rational numbers (which also includes all the rationals). So now comes the question, can you prove that this set is countable?
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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active
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votes
If you index on $x$ and $n$, you can do the following. Let
$$
E_n=mathbb Qcap left[-tfrac1n^2,tfrac1n^2right].
$$
This sets $E_n$ are countable, because they are subsets of $mathbb Q$.
Then $S=S_1cup S_2$, where
$$
S_1=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_xin E_nleftleft(x,sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)rightcupleftleft(x,-sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)right
$$
$$
S_2=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_yin E_nleftleft(sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)rightcupleftleft(-sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)right
$$
We can map this to a subset of $(mathbb Ntimesmathbb Qtimes1,2)^2$. And this last set is countable, so $S$ is countable.
The key fact is that subsets of countable sets are countable, and that finite cartesian products of countable sets are countable.
The way you have written the union for $S$, only takes into consideration when $x$ is rational and $y$ can be anything. What if it goes the other way round?
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:52
Or do you want to say that the final mapping would be $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, x, 1 right)$ if $x$ is rational and $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, y, 2 right)$ if $y$ is rational but $x$ is not.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:53
Yes, you are right. I needed to duplicate the sets. It's done now.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 4:58
Why are we mapping it to $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)^2$? I think $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)$ should work with the mapping I defined in the comment.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 5:00
I'm using the 1 and 2 to count the positive and negative roots. There is some overlapping, but it's not a big deal. The maps as you say also work, I think.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 5:04
|
show 1 more comment
If you index on $x$ and $n$, you can do the following. Let
$$
E_n=mathbb Qcap left[-tfrac1n^2,tfrac1n^2right].
$$
This sets $E_n$ are countable, because they are subsets of $mathbb Q$.
Then $S=S_1cup S_2$, where
$$
S_1=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_xin E_nleftleft(x,sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)rightcupleftleft(x,-sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)right
$$
$$
S_2=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_yin E_nleftleft(sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)rightcupleftleft(-sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)right
$$
We can map this to a subset of $(mathbb Ntimesmathbb Qtimes1,2)^2$. And this last set is countable, so $S$ is countable.
The key fact is that subsets of countable sets are countable, and that finite cartesian products of countable sets are countable.
The way you have written the union for $S$, only takes into consideration when $x$ is rational and $y$ can be anything. What if it goes the other way round?
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:52
Or do you want to say that the final mapping would be $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, x, 1 right)$ if $x$ is rational and $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, y, 2 right)$ if $y$ is rational but $x$ is not.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:53
Yes, you are right. I needed to duplicate the sets. It's done now.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 4:58
Why are we mapping it to $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)^2$? I think $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)$ should work with the mapping I defined in the comment.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 5:00
I'm using the 1 and 2 to count the positive and negative roots. There is some overlapping, but it's not a big deal. The maps as you say also work, I think.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 5:04
|
show 1 more comment
If you index on $x$ and $n$, you can do the following. Let
$$
E_n=mathbb Qcap left[-tfrac1n^2,tfrac1n^2right].
$$
This sets $E_n$ are countable, because they are subsets of $mathbb Q$.
Then $S=S_1cup S_2$, where
$$
S_1=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_xin E_nleftleft(x,sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)rightcupleftleft(x,-sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)right
$$
$$
S_2=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_yin E_nleftleft(sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)rightcupleftleft(-sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)right
$$
We can map this to a subset of $(mathbb Ntimesmathbb Qtimes1,2)^2$. And this last set is countable, so $S$ is countable.
The key fact is that subsets of countable sets are countable, and that finite cartesian products of countable sets are countable.
If you index on $x$ and $n$, you can do the following. Let
$$
E_n=mathbb Qcap left[-tfrac1n^2,tfrac1n^2right].
$$
This sets $E_n$ are countable, because they are subsets of $mathbb Q$.
Then $S=S_1cup S_2$, where
$$
S_1=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_xin E_nleftleft(x,sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)rightcupleftleft(x,-sqrttfrac1n^2-x^2right)right
$$
$$
S_2=bigcup_ninmathbb Nbigcup_yin E_nleftleft(sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)rightcupleftleft(-sqrttfrac1n^2-y^2,yright)right
$$
We can map this to a subset of $(mathbb Ntimesmathbb Qtimes1,2)^2$. And this last set is countable, so $S$ is countable.
The key fact is that subsets of countable sets are countable, and that finite cartesian products of countable sets are countable.
edited Dec 14 at 12:15
Mutantoe
560411
560411
answered Dec 14 at 4:50
Martin Argerami
123k1176174
123k1176174
The way you have written the union for $S$, only takes into consideration when $x$ is rational and $y$ can be anything. What if it goes the other way round?
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:52
Or do you want to say that the final mapping would be $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, x, 1 right)$ if $x$ is rational and $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, y, 2 right)$ if $y$ is rational but $x$ is not.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:53
Yes, you are right. I needed to duplicate the sets. It's done now.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 4:58
Why are we mapping it to $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)^2$? I think $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)$ should work with the mapping I defined in the comment.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 5:00
I'm using the 1 and 2 to count the positive and negative roots. There is some overlapping, but it's not a big deal. The maps as you say also work, I think.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 5:04
|
show 1 more comment
The way you have written the union for $S$, only takes into consideration when $x$ is rational and $y$ can be anything. What if it goes the other way round?
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:52
Or do you want to say that the final mapping would be $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, x, 1 right)$ if $x$ is rational and $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, y, 2 right)$ if $y$ is rational but $x$ is not.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:53
Yes, you are right. I needed to duplicate the sets. It's done now.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 4:58
Why are we mapping it to $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)^2$? I think $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)$ should work with the mapping I defined in the comment.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 5:00
I'm using the 1 and 2 to count the positive and negative roots. There is some overlapping, but it's not a big deal. The maps as you say also work, I think.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 5:04
The way you have written the union for $S$, only takes into consideration when $x$ is rational and $y$ can be anything. What if it goes the other way round?
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:52
The way you have written the union for $S$, only takes into consideration when $x$ is rational and $y$ can be anything. What if it goes the other way round?
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:52
Or do you want to say that the final mapping would be $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, x, 1 right)$ if $x$ is rational and $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, y, 2 right)$ if $y$ is rational but $x$ is not.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:53
Or do you want to say that the final mapping would be $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, x, 1 right)$ if $x$ is rational and $left( x, y right) mapsto left( n, y, 2 right)$ if $y$ is rational but $x$ is not.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 4:53
Yes, you are right. I needed to duplicate the sets. It's done now.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 4:58
Yes, you are right. I needed to duplicate the sets. It's done now.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 4:58
Why are we mapping it to $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)^2$? I think $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)$ should work with the mapping I defined in the comment.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 5:00
Why are we mapping it to $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)^2$? I think $left( mathbbN times mathbbQ times leftlbrace 1, 2 rightrbrace right)$ should work with the mapping I defined in the comment.
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Dec 14 at 5:00
I'm using the 1 and 2 to count the positive and negative roots. There is some overlapping, but it's not a big deal. The maps as you say also work, I think.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 5:04
I'm using the 1 and 2 to count the positive and negative roots. There is some overlapping, but it's not a big deal. The maps as you say also work, I think.
– Martin Argerami
Dec 14 at 5:04
|
show 1 more comment
Note that $x^2=frac1n^2-y^2$ and $y^2=frac1n^2-x^2$. So if $y$ is rational, then $x^2$ is rational as well, and likewise for $y^2$ if $x$ is rational.
Therefore you can define a surjection from the collection of all roots of rational numbers (which also includes all the rationals). So now comes the question, can you prove that this set is countable?
add a comment |
Note that $x^2=frac1n^2-y^2$ and $y^2=frac1n^2-x^2$. So if $y$ is rational, then $x^2$ is rational as well, and likewise for $y^2$ if $x$ is rational.
Therefore you can define a surjection from the collection of all roots of rational numbers (which also includes all the rationals). So now comes the question, can you prove that this set is countable?
add a comment |
Note that $x^2=frac1n^2-y^2$ and $y^2=frac1n^2-x^2$. So if $y$ is rational, then $x^2$ is rational as well, and likewise for $y^2$ if $x$ is rational.
Therefore you can define a surjection from the collection of all roots of rational numbers (which also includes all the rationals). So now comes the question, can you prove that this set is countable?
Note that $x^2=frac1n^2-y^2$ and $y^2=frac1n^2-x^2$. So if $y$ is rational, then $x^2$ is rational as well, and likewise for $y^2$ if $x$ is rational.
Therefore you can define a surjection from the collection of all roots of rational numbers (which also includes all the rationals). So now comes the question, can you prove that this set is countable?
answered Dec 14 at 4:46
Asaf Karagila♦
301k32423755
301k32423755
add a comment |
add a comment |
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