Speed of playing notes in different octaves

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Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?



I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves.



At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).



For A1 (delta of 3.3 Hz) you would need about 612 ms, for A2 (delta of 6.5 Hz) about 305 ms, for A3 (delta of 13 Hz) about 153 ms, ...



Is human perception able to distinguish notes better than this and thus not as limited by the speed of low notes as a Fourier Transform would be? Do lower notes usually get played slower to accommodate for this? With the logic above, A3 can only be played 6.5 bps or 392 bpm (eighth notes at 180 bpm).










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  • only be played at 6.5bps?
    – Tim H
    27 mins ago










  • @TimH saying "one Mississippi" to count seconds has 5 syllables per second, that is only a bit faster. Albeit, it is on the fast end, but also not that far from middle C4. One octave lower is down to 3.25 bps.
    – thaimin
    3 mins ago














up vote
4
down vote

favorite












Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?



I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves.



At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).



For A1 (delta of 3.3 Hz) you would need about 612 ms, for A2 (delta of 6.5 Hz) about 305 ms, for A3 (delta of 13 Hz) about 153 ms, ...



Is human perception able to distinguish notes better than this and thus not as limited by the speed of low notes as a Fourier Transform would be? Do lower notes usually get played slower to accommodate for this? With the logic above, A3 can only be played 6.5 bps or 392 bpm (eighth notes at 180 bpm).










share|improve this question







New contributor




thaimin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.



















  • only be played at 6.5bps?
    – Tim H
    27 mins ago










  • @TimH saying "one Mississippi" to count seconds has 5 syllables per second, that is only a bit faster. Albeit, it is on the fast end, but also not that far from middle C4. One octave lower is down to 3.25 bps.
    – thaimin
    3 mins ago












up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?



I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves.



At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).



For A1 (delta of 3.3 Hz) you would need about 612 ms, for A2 (delta of 6.5 Hz) about 305 ms, for A3 (delta of 13 Hz) about 153 ms, ...



Is human perception able to distinguish notes better than this and thus not as limited by the speed of low notes as a Fourier Transform would be? Do lower notes usually get played slower to accommodate for this? With the logic above, A3 can only be played 6.5 bps or 392 bpm (eighth notes at 180 bpm).










share|improve this question







New contributor




thaimin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?



I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves.



At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).



For A1 (delta of 3.3 Hz) you would need about 612 ms, for A2 (delta of 6.5 Hz) about 305 ms, for A3 (delta of 13 Hz) about 153 ms, ...



Is human perception able to distinguish notes better than this and thus not as limited by the speed of low notes as a Fourier Transform would be? Do lower notes usually get played slower to accommodate for this? With the logic above, A3 can only be played 6.5 bps or 392 bpm (eighth notes at 180 bpm).







theory tempo frequency octave






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asked 1 hour ago









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  • only be played at 6.5bps?
    – Tim H
    27 mins ago










  • @TimH saying "one Mississippi" to count seconds has 5 syllables per second, that is only a bit faster. Albeit, it is on the fast end, but also not that far from middle C4. One octave lower is down to 3.25 bps.
    – thaimin
    3 mins ago
















  • only be played at 6.5bps?
    – Tim H
    27 mins ago










  • @TimH saying "one Mississippi" to count seconds has 5 syllables per second, that is only a bit faster. Albeit, it is on the fast end, but also not that far from middle C4. One octave lower is down to 3.25 bps.
    – thaimin
    3 mins ago















only be played at 6.5bps?
– Tim H
27 mins ago




only be played at 6.5bps?
– Tim H
27 mins ago












@TimH saying "one Mississippi" to count seconds has 5 syllables per second, that is only a bit faster. Albeit, it is on the fast end, but also not that far from middle C4. One octave lower is down to 3.25 bps.
– thaimin
3 mins ago




@TimH saying "one Mississippi" to count seconds has 5 syllables per second, that is only a bit faster. Albeit, it is on the fast end, but also not that far from middle C4. One octave lower is down to 3.25 bps.
– thaimin
3 mins ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote













The first thing I suggest you think about is the fact that a musical note is not a single frequency. Depending on the timbre of the instrument, there can be hundreds of frequencies present in a sound wave even when only one note is played on one instrument. We perceive the pitch of a note through our ears analyzing all of the frequencies simultaneously, not just the lowest frequency.



Also, human pitch perception is not accomplished by our ears or brains doing fast Fourier transforms. It’s an analog electromechanical analysis engine, and we have two of them. Our ears do have a sort of “integration time” if you will, and like an FFT, the integration time is shorter for higher frequencies, but again we are using a lot of midrange and high frequencies (often called “overtones” when perceiving the pitches of low notes.






share|improve this answer




















  • I had forgotten about the "filling in" our brains do, for example with the missing fundamental illusion. Do you know what the approximate integration times are for some example notes?
    – thaimin
    27 mins ago

















up vote
2
down vote














Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?




Yes, for a number of reasons. It often takes longer for a low-frequency resonator to settle into stable oscillation; It's often physically harder to change frequency quickly on a larger instrument (which tend to be the lower sounding ones); and the harmony of most styles of music tends towards slower motion in the bass voices.




I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves. At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).




I'm not sure human pitch perception is quite as dependent on length of sound as you suggest there, as the cilia in the human ear can detect pitch components directly without needing to do a 'fourier analysis' as such. However it is true that we are less precise in our ability to distinguish the pitches of very low sounds in general. If you look up information on experiments to discern the pitch difference limen of the human ear you will find more information. If I recall correctly, the difference limen - the minimum difference we can hear - is around 1Hz through much of the audible range, becoming much bigger in the higher frequencies (where we are also less precise).



Todd's point about musical notes not only consisting of the fundamental frequency is also very relevant.






share|improve this answer




















  • I have never noticed instruments that play lower notes generally being played slower. I can think of several pieces of music across several genres with very fast bass lines. “Confutatis” from Mozart’s Requiem, so many symphonies, almost all of Bootsy’s bass lines from his time with James Brown, same with almost all the Rage Against The Machine bass lines. Beethoven’s “Moonlight” sonata (third movement). The list of very fast, very low notes seems endless. Oh yeah, “Hysteria” by Muse.
    – Todd Wilcox
    19 mins ago











  • There are two good points being made here. Setting up a wave of lower frequencies may take more time/effort (as suggested by @topomorto), but maybe this is a very minor effect - possibly only noticeable in the extreme low end if at all - compared to the speed of notes played on average. It is also possible that the bass lines that move quickly (@ToddWilcox) focus on particular instruments that are capable of faster switching but on average they are still slower.
    – thaimin
    7 mins ago










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2 Answers
2






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oldest

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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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active

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up vote
3
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The first thing I suggest you think about is the fact that a musical note is not a single frequency. Depending on the timbre of the instrument, there can be hundreds of frequencies present in a sound wave even when only one note is played on one instrument. We perceive the pitch of a note through our ears analyzing all of the frequencies simultaneously, not just the lowest frequency.



Also, human pitch perception is not accomplished by our ears or brains doing fast Fourier transforms. It’s an analog electromechanical analysis engine, and we have two of them. Our ears do have a sort of “integration time” if you will, and like an FFT, the integration time is shorter for higher frequencies, but again we are using a lot of midrange and high frequencies (often called “overtones” when perceiving the pitches of low notes.






share|improve this answer




















  • I had forgotten about the "filling in" our brains do, for example with the missing fundamental illusion. Do you know what the approximate integration times are for some example notes?
    – thaimin
    27 mins ago














up vote
3
down vote













The first thing I suggest you think about is the fact that a musical note is not a single frequency. Depending on the timbre of the instrument, there can be hundreds of frequencies present in a sound wave even when only one note is played on one instrument. We perceive the pitch of a note through our ears analyzing all of the frequencies simultaneously, not just the lowest frequency.



Also, human pitch perception is not accomplished by our ears or brains doing fast Fourier transforms. It’s an analog electromechanical analysis engine, and we have two of them. Our ears do have a sort of “integration time” if you will, and like an FFT, the integration time is shorter for higher frequencies, but again we are using a lot of midrange and high frequencies (often called “overtones” when perceiving the pitches of low notes.






share|improve this answer




















  • I had forgotten about the "filling in" our brains do, for example with the missing fundamental illusion. Do you know what the approximate integration times are for some example notes?
    – thaimin
    27 mins ago












up vote
3
down vote










up vote
3
down vote









The first thing I suggest you think about is the fact that a musical note is not a single frequency. Depending on the timbre of the instrument, there can be hundreds of frequencies present in a sound wave even when only one note is played on one instrument. We perceive the pitch of a note through our ears analyzing all of the frequencies simultaneously, not just the lowest frequency.



Also, human pitch perception is not accomplished by our ears or brains doing fast Fourier transforms. It’s an analog electromechanical analysis engine, and we have two of them. Our ears do have a sort of “integration time” if you will, and like an FFT, the integration time is shorter for higher frequencies, but again we are using a lot of midrange and high frequencies (often called “overtones” when perceiving the pitches of low notes.






share|improve this answer












The first thing I suggest you think about is the fact that a musical note is not a single frequency. Depending on the timbre of the instrument, there can be hundreds of frequencies present in a sound wave even when only one note is played on one instrument. We perceive the pitch of a note through our ears analyzing all of the frequencies simultaneously, not just the lowest frequency.



Also, human pitch perception is not accomplished by our ears or brains doing fast Fourier transforms. It’s an analog electromechanical analysis engine, and we have two of them. Our ears do have a sort of “integration time” if you will, and like an FFT, the integration time is shorter for higher frequencies, but again we are using a lot of midrange and high frequencies (often called “overtones” when perceiving the pitches of low notes.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 1 hour ago









Todd Wilcox

32.7k256110




32.7k256110











  • I had forgotten about the "filling in" our brains do, for example with the missing fundamental illusion. Do you know what the approximate integration times are for some example notes?
    – thaimin
    27 mins ago
















  • I had forgotten about the "filling in" our brains do, for example with the missing fundamental illusion. Do you know what the approximate integration times are for some example notes?
    – thaimin
    27 mins ago















I had forgotten about the "filling in" our brains do, for example with the missing fundamental illusion. Do you know what the approximate integration times are for some example notes?
– thaimin
27 mins ago




I had forgotten about the "filling in" our brains do, for example with the missing fundamental illusion. Do you know what the approximate integration times are for some example notes?
– thaimin
27 mins ago










up vote
2
down vote














Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?




Yes, for a number of reasons. It often takes longer for a low-frequency resonator to settle into stable oscillation; It's often physically harder to change frequency quickly on a larger instrument (which tend to be the lower sounding ones); and the harmony of most styles of music tends towards slower motion in the bass voices.




I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves. At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).




I'm not sure human pitch perception is quite as dependent on length of sound as you suggest there, as the cilia in the human ear can detect pitch components directly without needing to do a 'fourier analysis' as such. However it is true that we are less precise in our ability to distinguish the pitches of very low sounds in general. If you look up information on experiments to discern the pitch difference limen of the human ear you will find more information. If I recall correctly, the difference limen - the minimum difference we can hear - is around 1Hz through much of the audible range, becoming much bigger in the higher frequencies (where we are also less precise).



Todd's point about musical notes not only consisting of the fundamental frequency is also very relevant.






share|improve this answer




















  • I have never noticed instruments that play lower notes generally being played slower. I can think of several pieces of music across several genres with very fast bass lines. “Confutatis” from Mozart’s Requiem, so many symphonies, almost all of Bootsy’s bass lines from his time with James Brown, same with almost all the Rage Against The Machine bass lines. Beethoven’s “Moonlight” sonata (third movement). The list of very fast, very low notes seems endless. Oh yeah, “Hysteria” by Muse.
    – Todd Wilcox
    19 mins ago











  • There are two good points being made here. Setting up a wave of lower frequencies may take more time/effort (as suggested by @topomorto), but maybe this is a very minor effect - possibly only noticeable in the extreme low end if at all - compared to the speed of notes played on average. It is also possible that the bass lines that move quickly (@ToddWilcox) focus on particular instruments that are capable of faster switching but on average they are still slower.
    – thaimin
    7 mins ago














up vote
2
down vote














Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?




Yes, for a number of reasons. It often takes longer for a low-frequency resonator to settle into stable oscillation; It's often physically harder to change frequency quickly on a larger instrument (which tend to be the lower sounding ones); and the harmony of most styles of music tends towards slower motion in the bass voices.




I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves. At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).




I'm not sure human pitch perception is quite as dependent on length of sound as you suggest there, as the cilia in the human ear can detect pitch components directly without needing to do a 'fourier analysis' as such. However it is true that we are less precise in our ability to distinguish the pitches of very low sounds in general. If you look up information on experiments to discern the pitch difference limen of the human ear you will find more information. If I recall correctly, the difference limen - the minimum difference we can hear - is around 1Hz through much of the audible range, becoming much bigger in the higher frequencies (where we are also less precise).



Todd's point about musical notes not only consisting of the fundamental frequency is also very relevant.






share|improve this answer




















  • I have never noticed instruments that play lower notes generally being played slower. I can think of several pieces of music across several genres with very fast bass lines. “Confutatis” from Mozart’s Requiem, so many symphonies, almost all of Bootsy’s bass lines from his time with James Brown, same with almost all the Rage Against The Machine bass lines. Beethoven’s “Moonlight” sonata (third movement). The list of very fast, very low notes seems endless. Oh yeah, “Hysteria” by Muse.
    – Todd Wilcox
    19 mins ago











  • There are two good points being made here. Setting up a wave of lower frequencies may take more time/effort (as suggested by @topomorto), but maybe this is a very minor effect - possibly only noticeable in the extreme low end if at all - compared to the speed of notes played on average. It is also possible that the bass lines that move quickly (@ToddWilcox) focus on particular instruments that are capable of faster switching but on average they are still slower.
    – thaimin
    7 mins ago












up vote
2
down vote










up vote
2
down vote










Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?




Yes, for a number of reasons. It often takes longer for a low-frequency resonator to settle into stable oscillation; It's often physically harder to change frequency quickly on a larger instrument (which tend to be the lower sounding ones); and the harmony of most styles of music tends towards slower motion in the bass voices.




I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves. At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).




I'm not sure human pitch perception is quite as dependent on length of sound as you suggest there, as the cilia in the human ear can detect pitch components directly without needing to do a 'fourier analysis' as such. However it is true that we are less precise in our ability to distinguish the pitches of very low sounds in general. If you look up information on experiments to discern the pitch difference limen of the human ear you will find more information. If I recall correctly, the difference limen - the minimum difference we can hear - is around 1Hz through much of the audible range, becoming much bigger in the higher frequencies (where we are also less precise).



Todd's point about musical notes not only consisting of the fundamental frequency is also very relevant.






share|improve this answer













Is it common for pieces to have lower notes played slower? Do instruments with lower registers typically play slower?




Yes, for a number of reasons. It often takes longer for a low-frequency resonator to settle into stable oscillation; It's often physically harder to change frequency quickly on a larger instrument (which tend to be the lower sounding ones); and the harmony of most styles of music tends towards slower motion in the bass voices.




I ask because notes in lower octaves are closer together in frequency. For example, A0 to A#0 is about 1.6 Hz different while A1 to A#1 is about 3.3 Hz different - this is just a fundamental consequence of the doubling of frequencies between successive octaves. At least with Fourier analysis, to distinguish two frequencies only different by 1.6 Hz you would need 1.25 seconds of the note being played. (that is 2*1/1.6 where the 2x is to handle the Nyquist frequency issue).




I'm not sure human pitch perception is quite as dependent on length of sound as you suggest there, as the cilia in the human ear can detect pitch components directly without needing to do a 'fourier analysis' as such. However it is true that we are less precise in our ability to distinguish the pitches of very low sounds in general. If you look up information on experiments to discern the pitch difference limen of the human ear you will find more information. If I recall correctly, the difference limen - the minimum difference we can hear - is around 1Hz through much of the audible range, becoming much bigger in the higher frequencies (where we are also less precise).



Todd's point about musical notes not only consisting of the fundamental frequency is also very relevant.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 33 mins ago









topo morto

21.7k23691




21.7k23691











  • I have never noticed instruments that play lower notes generally being played slower. I can think of several pieces of music across several genres with very fast bass lines. “Confutatis” from Mozart’s Requiem, so many symphonies, almost all of Bootsy’s bass lines from his time with James Brown, same with almost all the Rage Against The Machine bass lines. Beethoven’s “Moonlight” sonata (third movement). The list of very fast, very low notes seems endless. Oh yeah, “Hysteria” by Muse.
    – Todd Wilcox
    19 mins ago











  • There are two good points being made here. Setting up a wave of lower frequencies may take more time/effort (as suggested by @topomorto), but maybe this is a very minor effect - possibly only noticeable in the extreme low end if at all - compared to the speed of notes played on average. It is also possible that the bass lines that move quickly (@ToddWilcox) focus on particular instruments that are capable of faster switching but on average they are still slower.
    – thaimin
    7 mins ago
















  • I have never noticed instruments that play lower notes generally being played slower. I can think of several pieces of music across several genres with very fast bass lines. “Confutatis” from Mozart’s Requiem, so many symphonies, almost all of Bootsy’s bass lines from his time with James Brown, same with almost all the Rage Against The Machine bass lines. Beethoven’s “Moonlight” sonata (third movement). The list of very fast, very low notes seems endless. Oh yeah, “Hysteria” by Muse.
    – Todd Wilcox
    19 mins ago











  • There are two good points being made here. Setting up a wave of lower frequencies may take more time/effort (as suggested by @topomorto), but maybe this is a very minor effect - possibly only noticeable in the extreme low end if at all - compared to the speed of notes played on average. It is also possible that the bass lines that move quickly (@ToddWilcox) focus on particular instruments that are capable of faster switching but on average they are still slower.
    – thaimin
    7 mins ago















I have never noticed instruments that play lower notes generally being played slower. I can think of several pieces of music across several genres with very fast bass lines. “Confutatis” from Mozart’s Requiem, so many symphonies, almost all of Bootsy’s bass lines from his time with James Brown, same with almost all the Rage Against The Machine bass lines. Beethoven’s “Moonlight” sonata (third movement). The list of very fast, very low notes seems endless. Oh yeah, “Hysteria” by Muse.
– Todd Wilcox
19 mins ago





I have never noticed instruments that play lower notes generally being played slower. I can think of several pieces of music across several genres with very fast bass lines. “Confutatis” from Mozart’s Requiem, so many symphonies, almost all of Bootsy’s bass lines from his time with James Brown, same with almost all the Rage Against The Machine bass lines. Beethoven’s “Moonlight” sonata (third movement). The list of very fast, very low notes seems endless. Oh yeah, “Hysteria” by Muse.
– Todd Wilcox
19 mins ago













There are two good points being made here. Setting up a wave of lower frequencies may take more time/effort (as suggested by @topomorto), but maybe this is a very minor effect - possibly only noticeable in the extreme low end if at all - compared to the speed of notes played on average. It is also possible that the bass lines that move quickly (@ToddWilcox) focus on particular instruments that are capable of faster switching but on average they are still slower.
– thaimin
7 mins ago




There are two good points being made here. Setting up a wave of lower frequencies may take more time/effort (as suggested by @topomorto), but maybe this is a very minor effect - possibly only noticeable in the extreme low end if at all - compared to the speed of notes played on average. It is also possible that the bass lines that move quickly (@ToddWilcox) focus on particular instruments that are capable of faster switching but on average they are still slower.
– thaimin
7 mins ago










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